Counter This Pokemon [OLD VERSION]

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Electrolyte

High Speed
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Yeah. I threw in dugtrio because there really aren't any counters other than the ones already posted.

I feel another discussion regarding SR coming up again...
perhaps we could splite the counters into grade A's and B's- where grade A counters can take hazards and are generally more secure counters than grade B's, who can take a few hits but not with hazards. I don't know, something like that, to maybe clear things up.
 

Patolegend!

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I've actually had sashed dugtrio switch into my specs heatran pretty often in the past when stealth rock wasn't down. It eventually annoyed me enough to switch to magma storm instead. Was also good for finishing off those regenerator slowbro who were unpleasantly surprised when they switched in and lost more health than they expected to.

The dragonite set mentioned earlier forgot to take SR into consideration. And I'm having trouble thinking of viable counters beyond what you guys are mentioning. Balloon sp. def flareon isn't viable after all.
Even Balloon sp. def Flareon has a slim chance to be 2HKO'd by Tran with rocks, while not being able to OHKO in return with HP ground. The only one I can find at the minute could be munchlax, which is outclassed by Snorlax, but can OHKO with EQ; or Latias, which just barely survives Dragon Pulse, and if Heatran has taken SR damage on the switch in, OHKO's with a modest nature and 252 SpA EVs, outspeeding without any investment. If Heatran is at full health, Latias needs Earth Plate or Life Orb to guarantee the OHKO. Latias needs 188 HP EV's to avoid the KO from Dragon Pulse with rocks, leaving it able to still have enough Spe EVs left to outspeed + base 70's.

EDIT - Even SashZam needs modest, which is never used, to OHKO with HP ground without rocks. Tran's bulk is surprisingly good, even with no investment whatsoever.

tl;dr: Specstran's a monster.
 
I wonder how much more powerful Heatran would be against these counters if he ran Overheat instead (well, it still wouldn't damage Trace Porygon2).
 
I wonder how much more powerful Heatran would be against these counters if he ran Overheat instead (well, it still wouldn't damage Trace Porygon2).
A few 2HKOs become OHKOs after Stealth Rock. Yesterday I was running the damage calcs on a few of the sets posted and failed to notice that the Honko Bonko Badunkadunk calculator has Overheat as the default option.

I know The Gyarados listed becomes a OHKO and theres a 68.75% to OHKO Keldeo after the SR.
 
Im finding it hilarious how even a really specially defensive Blissey has a good chance to be 2HKO with rocks (64.84%). Guys if you want to counter a special pokemon, just use the best special wall in the game, chansey:

I know Ive already posted the beast, but I feel its time for her to strap on her cape once again and save the day!



Chansey (F) @ Eviolite
Trait: Natural Cure
EVs: 160 HP / 252 Def / 96 SDef
Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
- Softboiled
- Stealth Rock
- Seismic Toss
- Toxic

Fire Blast: (37.44 - 44.19%) -- 1.17% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Yeah basically its not a 2HKO factoring in its gonna miss, one can simply spam fire blast out of PP with softboiled (fireblast only has 8 PP trololo) and/or get back to 100% health and seismic toss and heal ever other turn.

On the note of the ev spread, my old 116 HP / 252 Def / 140 SpD spread is never 2HKOed ever, but this spread takes physical hits much better, being only 2HKOed after Hydreagion's superpower after rocks 6.25% of the time, which is good enough.
 

Jimera0

You don't understand, Edgar is the one in the hole!
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Alright, I have one that actually hasn't been mentioned yet.

http://www.smogon.com/download/sprites/bw/199.png

Slowking @ Leftovers
252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Nature: Calm
Ability: Regenerator
-Scald
-Psychic / Flamethrower
-Dragon Tail
-Slack Off

Ok, so this isn't a typical spread for slowking, who usually invests in defense a by a bit more than one point, but slowking is very capable of performing as a special wall and still retains it's useful resistances for taking on physical threats, while hitting back harder than most defensive Pokemon.

But hey, you think, HP Grass is a 2HKO! And you know what? You're right! But who gives a fuck when you have regenerator and Heatran locked into HP grass???? Just switch to a grass resist and you get a free turn of set up, while Slowbro barely loses any health after Regenerator. All Heatran's other moves can be stalled out with Slack Off, even the fearsome Fire Blast, which just barely misses out on a 2HKO after leftovers. It can then whittle him down with scald, which admittedly won't be doing much, but since you have virtually no risk of getting KO'd, who cares?

You could also use a more conventional balanced defensive spread, but then you'll be 2HKO'd by fire blast. Still, the advantage of regenerator still applies, and you can switch out to something that can take the hit better, so it still functions as one of the safest switch-ins to Specs-tran available. Unless they carry magma storm I suppose :P that's a real clever solution to the regenerator problem.

Funny note: I happened to have rotom-C as my defender while setting up the calculation since it was the defender for my last calculation, and discovered that this Heatran inflicts a ludicrous 376%-444% to it with fire blast with sun up. So, 4 times over on a 2x super-effective attack. Take out the 2x, and it's still inflicting 404hp MINIMUM to the 107 base Sp.Def rotom-A. That gives a sense of scale of the power we're dealing with here.
 
I feel another discussion regarding SR coming up again...
perhaps we could splite the counters into grade A's and B's- where grade A counters can take hazards and are generally more secure counters than grade B's, who can take a few hits but not with hazards. I don't know, something like that, to maybe clear things up.
"Grade A" is a counter, "Grade B" is a check
 

WaterBomb

Two kids no brane
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It's really difficult to switch into something with such sheer power and coverage. It's one of those things that doesn't really have a catch-all hard counter, but can still be baited and outplayed if you're smart.
 
It's really difficult to switch into something with such sheer power and coverage. It's one of those things that doesn't really have a catch-all hard counter, but can still be baited and outplayed if you're smart.
It does have 2 counters. Air balloon Heatran is the best, and CurseLax can also switch in and take it.
 
Alright, I have one that actually hasn't been mentioned yet.

http://www.smogon.com/download/sprites/bw/199.png

Slowking @ Leftovers
252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Nature: Calm
Ability: Regenerator
-Scald
-Psychic / Flamethrower
-Dragon Tail
-Slack Off

Ok, so this isn't a typical spread for slowking, who usually invests in defense a by a bit more than one point, but slowking is very capable of performing as a special wall and still retains it's useful resistances for taking on physical threats, while hitting back harder than most defensive Pokemon.

But hey, you think, HP Grass is a 2HKO! And you know what? You're right! But who gives a fuck when you have regenerator and Heatran locked into HP grass???? Just switch to a grass resist and you get a free turn of set up, while Slowbro barely loses any health after Regenerator. All Heatran's other moves can be stalled out with Slack Off, even the fearsome Fire Blast, which just barely misses out on a 2HKO after leftovers. It can then whittle him down with scald, which admittedly won't be doing much, but since you have virtually no risk of getting KO'd, who cares?

You could also use a more conventional balanced defensive spread, but then you'll be 2HKO'd by fire blast. Still, the advantage of regenerator still applies, and you can switch out to something that can take the hit better, so it still functions as one of the safest switch-ins to Specs-tran available. Unless they carry magma storm I suppose :P that's a real clever solution to the regenerator problem.

Funny note: I happened to have rotom-C as my defender while setting up the calculation since it was the defender for my last calculation, and discovered that this Heatran inflicts a ludicrous 376%-444% to it with fire blast with sun up. So, 4 times over on a 2x super-effective attack. Take out the 2x, and it's still inflicting 404hp MINIMUM to the 107 base Sp.Def rotom-A. That gives a sense of scale of the power we're dealing with here.
No one runs Slowking in OU hell Slowbro has low usage itself. Naturally this a cirmunstance counter that would have no other purpose.
 

Jimera0

You don't understand, Edgar is the one in the hole!
is a Smogon Social Media Contributor Alumnus
No one runs Slowking in OU hell Slowbro has low usage itself. Naturally this a cirmunstance counter that would have no other purpose.
Bullshit, it has low usage but that's only because so few people seem to realize how beastly the Slow twins are. If you need any more proof, then the fact that Slowking has an extensive OU analysis should tell you that it's perfectly viable in OU.

And as someone who frequents the C&C forums, I can tell you how hard it is to get an OU analysis on site when there's doubt of the Pokemon's viability.
 
Bullshit, it has low usage but that's only because so few people seem to realize how beastly the Slow twins are. If you need any more proof, then the fact that Slowking has an extensive OU analysis should tell you that it's perfectly viable in OU.

And as someone who frequents the C&C forums, I can tell you how hard it is to get an OU analysis on site when there's doubt of the Pokemon's viability.
Oh, I'm not questioning it's viablity in OU, just that it's not actually ran in OU. Its very solid, but it's just not around much and will not be ran soley to counter this Heatran set.

Edit: 4. Don't be ridiculous. Before you write out your set, think for a second: Would I ever run this set on my team other than to counter this specific Pokemon? Is this Pokemon so common and threatening that I must carry a specific, tailor-made counter to it? If yes to the first and no to the second, think of something else.
 

NixHex

I'm a fake punk!
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Slowking @ Leftovers
252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Nature: Calm
Ability: Regenerator
-Scald
-Psychic / Flamethrower
-Dragon Tail
-Slack Off

Ok, so this isn't a typical spread for slowking, who usually invests in defense a by a bit more than one point, but slowking is very capable of performing as a special wall and still retains it's useful resistances for taking on physical threats, while
hitting back harder than most defensive Pokemon.
@Ricky Horror
252/252 is hardly "tailor made"; Jimera0 said himself that Slowking functions as a Special wall. This is no Shedinja vs. Thundurus-T, this is a legitimate Pokemon that is a dedicated special wall that can, coincidentally, counter Specs Heatran. The moves are identical, the EV spread is not. That's how tons of posts in this thread are. Lee's Breloom counter, Celebi, has slightly tweaked EVs to outspeed Adamant Breloom. That's the second post, mind you.
 

Jimera0

You don't understand, Edgar is the one in the hole!
is a Smogon Social Media Contributor Alumnus
Oh, I'm not questioning it's viablity in OU, just that it's not actually ran in OU. Its very solid, but it's just not around much and will not be ran soley to counter this Heatran set.

Edit: 4. Don't be ridiculous. Before you write out your set, think for a second: Would I ever run this set on my team other than to counter this specific Pokemon? Is this Pokemon so common and threatening that I must carry a specific, tailor-made counter to it? If yes to the first and no to the second, think of something else.
Well I can answer that question as yes, I would. If I ever wanted to make a Regenerator Core geared towards special attackers I very well might pick Slowking to battle alongside Amoongus, and I might very well EV it higher on the special side since I have Amoongus for Electric attacks, allowing the two to act as a pretty effective special core. Of course, I'd be running this on a defensive team alonside some physically defensive mons (one of my most successful teams was a reverse of this, with a physically defensive regenerator core. I don't see any reason this couldn't work just as well). And if I did run such a core, choice specs Heatran would be very low on the list of my reasons for running it.

EDIT:

Ah, thank you Nix, glad you agree :P there's more than one way for a thread to be derailed. Anyway, no point continuing this discussion.

I would however like to suggest we move onto a new Pokemon; I really do think we're running low on counters here and I think we'll be getting sets that really are useless outside of countering if we wait much longer :P.
 

NixHex

I'm a fake punk!
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We in fact are moving onto the next Pokemon! Thanks for the debate guys, but please try to cool it. Talked to my buddy Straw Hat Luffy on irc and he suggested the best set-up sweeper in the game. Okay I might be exaggerating a bit but I have been dominating teams with this Pokemon since I started playing DW. I'm so glad it has decided to join us on the main stage. The next Pokemon is Keldeo!

Keldeo-R @ Leftovers

Nature: Timid
Ability: Justified
252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
-Calm Mind
-Surf
-Secret Sword
-Hidden Power Ghost

With three moves, Keldeo retains perfect neutral coverage AND the ability to boost its stats. Unlike most dedicated special attackers, our little pony is able to strike special walls where it hurts. Secret Sword ain't no Psyshock -- it has a much better typing, complemented by STAB, and is designed to impale certain pink blobs that like to ruin the lives of set up sweepers with paralysis and other ugly statuses. As with any offensive Pokemon, Keldeo is not impossible to counter. Its bulk is above-average but its typing and high-but-just-too-low Speed leaves it vulnerable to several new BW2 threats.
 

alexwolf

lurks in the shadows
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Come on NixHex, Lefties CM Keldeo? This is too easy...



Starmie @ Life Orb
EVs: 34 HP / 252 SpA / 224 Spe
Trait: Natural Cure
Nature: Timid
- Hydro Pump
- Psyshock
- Rapid Spin
- Recover

Pretty standard set in BW2. Psyshock bypasses any CM boosts that Keldeo could have gotten and does 96.29 - 113.58% to 4 HP Keldeo, which is a 81.25% chance to ohko from max health. Water + Psychic actually offers decent coverage in OU, as many of the pokes that resist water, are weak to Psychic, such as Amoonguus, Tentacruel, Roserade, Breloom and Virizion. 24 HP evs are needed to always survive after taking HP Ghost + 1 LO round + SR, and the 10 more evs are put in HP because the next speed tier for Starmie to hit is outspeeding the base 111's, so it doesn't need more speed than this, if it can't outspeed and ohko Starmie. Rapid Spin is to support your team, and Recover helps you last longer, as between hazards damage, LO and resisted hits, your life will be going away really fast...
 

Latias (F) @ Leftovers
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Calm Mind
- Dragon Pulse
- Recover
- Psyshock

The classic Keldeo counter: CM Latias. Great special defense and the ability to outspeed Keldeo means it can handily come in and retaliate with Psyshock. Latias is really excellent this metagame for also being able to switch in on the menacing Techniloom. Lack of Tyranitar and Scizor usage means Latias has less fear of becoming Pursuit trapped. It brings such a smile to my face when you can counter sweep one of "the most menacing" sweepers in OU :*)
 

Jimera0

You don't understand, Edgar is the one in the hole!
is a Smogon Social Media Contributor Alumnus
Ok I wasn't going to put this at first but when I noticed it it made me LOL so hard I just HAVE to post it.


Slowking @ Leftovers
252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Nature: Calm
Ability: Regenerator
-Scald
-Psychic Psyshock
-Dragon Tail / Flamethrower
-Slack Off

Yes, I discovered this by accident when I was entering in Keldeo into the attacker field while Slowking was still in my defender spot, when I noticed that at +1 Keldeo only does 46% max with HP Ghost, the most powerful option it has against Slowking (even in rain). Slowking can strike back with Psyshock for 87-104% damage (a 25% chance of an OHKO without prior damage) a minimum 58% damage, a clean 2HKO. This means Slowking can switch into Keldeo with impunity and get the KO every time. Keldeo is completely unable to beat it without a crit making it a very solid counter. Further more, this also means that it can counter Specs Keldeo as well, at worst risking a 2HKO after Stealth Rock if it opts to use Modest over Timid (highly unlikely given the value of the 108 speed tier and all the shit that outspeeds it if it doesn't run timid).

So basically I've found one of the best counters to Keldeo by total mistake XD. I'm going to check out my original idea now too, don't worry, but seriously, I find this hilarious after we just had a debate doubting Slowking's viability.

EDIT: NVM my original idea actually doesn't work. Turns out Slowking was the best option I had :P
 

Sayonara

don't forget

Tornadus @ Choice Specs | Prankster
Timid | 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
~ Hurricane
~ Focus Blast
~ U-Turn
~ Rain Dance

Ugh, Keldeo. Tornadus is a solid check (not counter), as Hurricane deals 97.21% - 115.17% to a +2 Keldeo, which is a guaranteed OHKO if Stealth Rock is up. If Keldeo doesn't have any Calm Mind boosts, the damage output is 193.8% - 228.48%.
 

Jimera0

You don't understand, Edgar is the one in the hole!
is a Smogon Social Media Contributor Alumnus
Psyshock does 58.02 - 69.13% to 4 HP Keldeo.
What but the calculator said... hang on let me do another calculation...

*pulls up calculator again*

Oh... whoops, looks like I left in the +1 from when I was calculating the damage that Keldeo would do to Slowking when I did the psyshock calculation.

Well it doesn't matter that much anyway, there's still no situation, barring a crit, where Keldeo wins. It's a guaranteed 2HKO either way, and Keldeo is still unable to 2HKO with HP ghost at +1.
 

Latios @ Life Orb | Levitate
Timid Nature | 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Draco Meteor | Psyshock | Surf | Recover


Latios is no counter, but it can come in on three of Keldeo's moves (HP Ghost is a OHKO after Stealth Rock) and threaten to OHKO with a LO Psyshock. Latios also outspeeds Keldeo, so it can't do anything about the threat of being KOed (unlike the Specs set).
 

Alakazam @ Focus Sash
Trait: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Psyshock
- Shadow Ball
- Focus Blast
- Calm Mind

Is this considered cheap? Even if it is, Alakazam doesn't care how many boost Keldeo has or how many hazards are on his side of the field. It's literally as easy as switch in, survive and OHKO with Psyshock. The set isn't tailor made, in fact it's his most common set. He just seems to get left behind because Tornadus-T trolls him by 1 point.
 


Dragonite @ Leftovers
Trait: Multiscale
EVs: 252 HP / 108 SAtk / 148 SDef
Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
- Hurricane
- Thunder
- Dragon Tail
- Roost

That Keldeo set in particular (without HP [Ice] or Icy Wind) is hard-countered by this Dragonite. With Multiscale active, any attack from Keldeo-R does piss-poor damage, even at +1 SAtk. Dragonite can easily strike back with a powerful Hurricane, which will OHKO Keldeo-R with no boosts and 2HKO after a +1 SDef boost from Calm Mind.
 
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