Counter This Pokemon [OLD VERSION]

[nob]

I have another one. For next time, should I update my post rather than make a new one?
EDIT: Looks like someone beat me to it. I swear when I was typing this the post before me wasn't there.

Volcarona @ Leftovers
Trait: Flame Body
EVs: 240 HP / 216 Def / 52 Spd
Bold Nature
- Quiver Dance
- Fire Blast
- Bug Buzz
- Hurricane
252Atk Toxicroak (+Atk) Focus Punch in Rain vs 240HP/216Def Leftovers Volcarona (+Def): 30% - 36% (114 - 135 HP). Guaranteed 4HKO.
252Atk Toxicroak (+Atk) Sucker Punch in Rain vs 240HP/216Def Leftovers Volcarona (+Def): 21% - 25% (81 - 96 HP). Guaranteed 5HKO.
252Atk Toxicroak (+Atk) Ice Punch in Rain vs 240HP/216Def Leftovers Volcarona (+Def): 10% - 12% (38 - 45 HP). Guaranteed 10HKO.
This Volcarona is a Bulky Quiver Dance set I adapted for a rain team. I found in battles, the Bulky set's recovery was unnecessary when lategame sweeping, the only time I used it was to add insult to injury and get +6. Anyway, if my math isn't wrong (Which it very well could be, I did it all in my head), then even with stealth rock up, if both Focus Punch and Sucker Punch do max damage, Volcarona will still live and be able to kill it with hurricane.

 

[Skore]

Anyway, if my math isn't wrong (Which it very well could be, I did it all in my head), then even with stealth rock up, if both Focus Punch and Sucker Punch do max damage, Volcarona will still live and be able to kill it with hurricane.

And if it's behind a sub? The set is sub-punch after all so I think we should assume they switched Toxicroak in, you switched your counter in and they subbed on the switch. 1 sucker punch as you break the sub, and unless you win the mindgames you'll eat another attack. Heck I'd be tempted to throw another Focus Punch at you, or an Ice Punch if you were hovering at 10%.

 

[Jimera0]

Vaporeon (F) @ Leftovers
Trait: Hydration
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spd
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Roar
- Scald
- Hidden Power [Psychic]
- Rest

252 Atk Life Orb Toxicroak (+Atk) Drain Punch vs 248 HP/252 Def Vaporeon (+Def) : 32,4% - 38,23%
3-4 hits to KO (with Leftovers)

252 Atk Life Orb Toxicroak (+Atk) Focus Punch vs 248 HP/252 Def Vaporeon (+Def) : 64,79% - 76,03%
2 hits to KO (with Leftovers) -> Roar it out.

252 Atk Life Orb Toxicroak (+Atk) Sucker Punch vs 248 HP/252 Def Vaporeon (+Def) : 23,11% - 27,21%
5-6 hits to KO (with Leftovers)

252 Atk Life Orb Toxicroak (+Atk) Ice Punch vs 248 HP/252 Def Vaporeon (+Def) : 10,8% - 12,74%
15-21 hits to KO (with Leftovers)

252 Atk Life Orb Toxicroak (+Atk) Poison Jab vs 248 HP/252 Def Vaporeon (+Def) : 34,56% - 40,82%
3-4 hits to KO (with Leftovers)

OK, as much as I love the crap out of Vaporeon, using this set to counter it is just... dumb. Seriously, HP Psychic is a TERRIBLE option to run on Hydra-rest Vaporeon and is ONLY for Toxicroak. You won't do enough damage to KO other important Pokemon like Tentacruel, Conkeldurr or Keldeo and against most targets Scald is stronger than a super-effective HP Psychic anyway thanks to STAB and the rain boost.

Vaporeon can't scratch Toxicroak otherwise, as I'm pretty sure even Ice Beam (the only FEASIBLE option for Vaporeon to run that can scratch Toxicroak) does far too little coming off Vaporeon's un-invested Special attack. You can't even PP stall it because it has more Focus Punch PP than you do Rest PP.

Next time don't over specialize your counter, that's not the way this topic is supposed to work.

EDIT: Also, phazing doesn't count, especially when the Pokemon you're phazing resists SR, is immune to toxic spikes, and restores over 18% of it's HP a turn.

 

[Electrolyte]

Vaporeon (F) @ Leftovers
Trait: Hydration
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spd
[B]Bold[/B] Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- [B]Roar[/B]
- Scald
- [B]Hidden Power [Psychic][/B]
- Rest

[B]252 Atk Life Orb Toxicroak (+Atk) Drain Punch vs 248 HP/252 Def Vaporeon (+Def) : 32,4% - 38,23%
3-4 hits to KO (with Leftovers)

252 Atk Life Orb Toxicroak (+Atk) Focus Punch vs 248 HP/252 Def Vaporeon (+Def) : 64,79% - 76,03%
2 hits to KO (with Leftovers) -> Roar it out.

252 Atk Life Orb Toxicroak (+Atk) Sucker Punch vs 248 HP/252 Def Vaporeon (+Def) : 23,11% - 27,21%
5-6 hits to KO (with Leftovers)

252 Atk Life Orb Toxicroak (+Atk) Ice Punch vs 248 HP/252 Def Vaporeon (+Def) : 10,8% - 12,74%
15-21 hits to KO (with Leftovers)[/B]

[B]252 Atk Life Orb Toxicroak (+Atk) Poison Jab vs 248 HP/252 Def Vaporeon (+Def) : 34,56% - 40,82%
3-4 hits to KO (with Leftovers)[/B]


Toxicroak is mostly used on rain teams or rain abusing teams thats why vaporeon seams like a good choice to me, it got access to Roar (Croaks often like to set up a sub or boost - just roar it out); while HP Psychic may look like a bad joke, it isnt if you really worry about Croak and other fighting or poisen types to much. Rest in the rain with Hydration...I really dont have to tell why Rest here...


[IMG]
Volcarona (F) @ Leftovers
Trait: [B]Flame Body[/B]
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
[B]Bold[/B] Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Quiver Dance
- [B]Hurricane[/B]
- Bug Buzz
- [B]Whirlwind[/B]

[B]252 Atk Life Orb Toxicroak (+Atk) Drain Punch vs 252 HP/252 Def Volcarona (+Def) : 19,25% - 22,46%
6-8 hits to KO (with Leftovers)

252 Atk Life Orb Toxicroak (+Atk) Focus Punch vs 252 HP/252 Def Volcarona (+Def) : 38,24% - 44,92%
3 hits to KO (with Leftovers)

252 Atk Life Orb Toxicroak (+Atk) Sucker Punch vs 252 HP/252 Def Volcarona (+Def) : 27,27% - 32,09%
4-5 hits to KO (with Leftovers)

252 Atk Life Orb Toxicroak (+Atk) Ice Punch vs 252 HP/252 Def Volcarona (+Def) : 12,83% - 14,97%
11-15 hits to KO (with Leftovers)[/B]

[B]252 Atk Life Orb Toxicroak (+Atk) Poison Jab vs 252 HP/252 Def Volcarona (+Def) : 40,91% - 48,13%
3 hits to KO (with Leftovers)[/B]


Also a bulky, rain abusing Volcarona seams like a good counter to me.
Resisting Croaks fighting moves, also resisting Ice Punch; access to Hurricane, Whirlwind to phase it out if you need to - to not be damaged by Sucker-Punch, Flame Body as Volca's Traid.... I even think its kind of tricky switching it into Croak, your opponent maybe thinks you dont have anything to take it on...so he maybe tries to set up a sub, Bulk Up or SD but just get whirled away... but one big "thumps down" to Volca.. 4x SR weak..so you'll need RS support... otherwise a great counter if you ask me... exkeept Croak carries a stab poisen move, which most dont.

[B]EDIT: CALC's ADDED!!![/B][/QUOTE]

I'm not sure if Vaporeon would count as a counter, I'd say it's a check. It can't do anything to Toxicroak except roar, which doesn't hurt Toxicroak at all. Not only that, your strategy can only be done once without recovery, so I wouldn't say it's a counter. Also, running HP Psychic just for Toxicroak is kind of dumb.

Also, Nob, posting another set is fine, but don't do calculations in your head. There are plenty of damage calculators on the internet for you to use. I'm not doubting on your math skill, just saying that it's easier to believe you if you provide raw calculations.

 

[nob]

And if it's behind a sub? The set is sub-punch after all so I think we should assume they switched Toxicroak in, you switched your counter in and they subbed on the switch. 1 sucker punch as you break the sub, and unless you win the mindgames you'll eat another attack. Heck I'd be tempted to throw another Focus Punch at you, or an Ice Punch if you were hovering at 10%.

Either I'm very mistaken or you're forgetting Leftovers.
The only way the opponent comes out the winner is if he's the luckiest man on earth. Here's how things would go.
The opponent sends in his toxicroak on whatever. It forces a switch and you go to Volcarona as Toxicroak uses substitute. Now Volcarona is at 185 HP, and after Lefties recovery Volca is at 208 HP.
Toxicroak uses Focus Punch as you break the sub. This leaves Volcarona at 73 HP, after lefties, 96. At this point it all comes down to luck. If the opponent can roll max damage twice in a row, you lose, but if not, you win, with very little HP. Overall this isn't the best way to deal with toxicroak, but it's nearly impossible for you to lose. Unless my math is wrong, which is possible because I did this in my head. EDIT: Don't want to look like even more of an ass so I checked wolfram alpha, the math holds up.

Also, Nob, posting another set is fine, but don't do calculations in your head. There are plenty of damage calculators on the internet for you to use. I'm not doubting on your math skill, just saying that it's easier to believe you if you provide raw calculations.

I didn't do the damage calcs in my head, just the math I was doing above. I did the damage calcs with kalashnikov's calc. Another question, should I assume the opponent rolls max on each attack? I don't think I should being as it's highly unlikely.

 

[preliator]

I'm not sure if Vaporeon would count as a counter, I'd say it's a check. It can't do anything to Toxicroak except roar, which doesn't hurt Toxicroak at all. Not only that, your strategy can only be done once without recovery, so I wouldn't say it's a counter. Also, running HP Psychic just for Toxicroak is kind of dumb.

Also, Nob, posting another set is fine, but don't do calculations in your head. There are plenty of damage calculators on the internet for you to use. I'm not doubting on your math skill, just saying that it's easier to believe you if you provide raw calculations.

I aggree with you that Vaporeon more seams like a check and HP Psychic does hurt more Mon's than only Croak... ur acting like Croak is the only fighting or poisen type out there...

But seriously... what do you think about a bulky Volcarona.... calc's look promissing to me...

 

[Kiyo]

[pimg]455[/pimg]
Hippowdon @ Leftovers
Trait: Sand Stream
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 Def
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Ice Fang
- Slack Off
- Stealth Rock

252 Atk Toxicroak (+Atk) Ice Punch vs 248 HP/252 Def Hippowdon: 26.73% - 31.5% (4-5 hits to KO)
252 Atk Toxicroak (+Atk) Sucker Punch vs 248 HP/252 Def Hippowdon: 14.08% - 16.71% (10-13 hits to KO)
252 Atk Toxicroak (+Atk) Focus Punch vs 248 HP/252 Def Hippowdon: 39.38% - 46.54% (3 hits to KO)

8 Atk Hippowdon (+Atk) Earthquake vs 244 HP/12 Def Toxicroak: 100.27% - 118.21% (Guaranteed OHKO)

Hippowdon shrugs off all of croak's attacks and OHKO's back with STAB Earthquake. He can also set up rocks, has reliable recovery and is a great physical wall in general. Also getting rid of rains a nice plus.

 

[nob]

-snip-

This has got to be the best counter so far. All it really fears is a crit.

 

[Nix_Hex]

Here's some problems with Preliator's post:

1. Stealth Rock is assumed to be up. This means that Toxicroak gets a free substitute, Volcarona loses half of its health, then dies to a couple of Focus Punches or whatever your opponent feels like doing (like switching into a Scarfer that can beat a 50% Volcarona).
2. I don't know what Whirlwind is doing there. You switch in and take 50%, then you get Focus Punched and it escapes unscathed, thanks to your phazing attempts. In fact, I don't even know what Roar is doing on Vaporeon, since you're taking massive damage from Focus Punch in the process.

Please pay attention to the OP (like the title says), read the rules regarding Stealth Rock, and don't take stuff like Poison Jab into account. Toxicroak will never be using Poison Jab. Don't tailor make your sets just to beat Toxicroak. Vaporeon has much better things to be doing than countering Toxicroak (which it does horribly) than to be running Hidden Power Psychic.

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

On the note of high damage rolls, the odds of it every happening on both attacks is .39%, very very unlikely. More importantly, the odds of getting damage rolls with HP values of the 4 highest values twice (there are 16) twice is the same as getting a critical hit (6.25%).

I think this is important information to consider when countering a pokemon since not counting very high damage rolls can leave you with a more reasonable result and you can even be saved by 1 or 2 percent, like you would in a real battle. Some times we get a little caught up in damage calcs to much that we leave ourselfs from the reality of the situation.

Just something to consider.

 

[Nix_Hex]

Guys, if you are going to use something that takes 50% from Stealth Rock like Volcarona (or Yanmega or lolNinjask) as a counter to something, you better be damn sure it doesn't get raped on the next turn. Countering Toxicroak with Volcarona is a mind game since you are going to eat two Focus Punches and die if you're trying to Quiver Dance, or eat a Focus Punch and and a Sucker Punch and die if you're trying to just attack it.

 

[nob]

Here's some problems with Preliator's post:

1. Stealth Rock is assumed to be up. This means that Toxicroak gets a free substitute, Volcarona loses half of its health, then dies to a couple of Focus Punches or whatever your opponent feels like doing (like switching into a Scarfer that can beat a 50% Volcarona).
2. I don't know what Whirlwind is doing there. You switch in and take 50%, then you get Focus Punched and it escapes unscathed, thanks to your phazing attempts. In fact, I don't even know what Roar is doing on Vaporeon, since you're taking massive damage from Focus Punch in the process.

Please pay attention to the OP (like the title says), read the rules regarding Stealth Rock, and don't take stuff like Poison Jab into account. Toxicroak will never be using Poison Jab. Don't tailor make your sets just to beat Toxicroak. Vaporeon has much better things to be doing than countering Toxicroak (which it does horribly) than to be running Hidden Power Psychic.

Stealth Rock is assumed to be up for the countering of the pokemon, nothing in the original post says they can't be spun away later, just that they're up when Toxicroak is first brought in.
In this scenario, where the foe switches into a scarfed poke, Volcarona can just be switched out and the rocks spun away. I don't know why anyone would WW in that situation but that is still a viable way to deal with toxicroak.

Guys, if you are going to use something that takes 50% from Stealth Rock like Volcarona (or Yanmega or lolNinjask) as a counter to something, you better be damn sure it doesn't get raped on the next turn. Countering Toxicroak with Volcarona is a mind game since you are going to eat two Focus Punches and die if you're trying to Quiver Dance, or eat a Focus Punch and and a Sucker Punch and die if you're trying to just attack it.

Look at all my pretty math above, Volcarona wins even if rocks are up.

 

[preliator]

Here's some problems with Preliator's post:

1. Stealth Rock is assumed to be up. This means that Toxicroak gets a free substitute, Volcarona loses half of its health, then dies to a couple of Focus Punches or whatever your opponent feels like doing (like switching into a Scarfer that can beat a 50% Volcarona).
2. I don't know what Whirlwind is doing there. You switch in and take 50%, then you get Focus Punched and it escapes unscathed, thanks to your phazing attempts. In fact, I don't even know what Roar is doing on Vaporeon, since you're taking massive damage from Focus Punch in the process.

Please pay attention to the OP (like the title says), read the rules regarding Stealth Rock, and don't take stuff like Poison Jab into account. Toxicroak will never be using Poison Jab. Don't tailor make your sets just to beat Toxicroak. Vaporeon has much better things to be doing than countering Toxicroak (which it does horribly) than to be running Hidden Power Psychic.

Ok I'll keep in mind to allways calc wiht SR up. I must have overread the part with SR... I'm sorry.
Now I do totaly aggree that vaporeon dont seam well against Croak...

By the way I also calced other move's which I face quite often on PO and PS... not everyone is using smogon sets this day's cuz their are known and often to predicable...

 

[Nix_Hex]

When exactly are you going to spin it away? You can't just assume you can dance around every situation by saying "oh, Stealth Rock is there? I'll just spin it!" You have to do even more switching and you have to assume that your spinner can do its job without getting itself and Volcarona killed.

 

[nob]

When exactly are you going to spin it away? You can't just assume you can dance around every situation by saying "oh, Stealth Rock is there? I'll just spin it!" You have to do even more switching and you have to assume that your spinner can do its job without getting itself and Volcarona killed.

Like all things, getting a rapid spin off takes skill and planning, but it's very possible with the right planning and skill. It's just as fair to assume you CAN spin then to assume you can't.

 

[Pocket]

Volcarona (F) @ Leftovers
Trait: Flame Body
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Quiver Dance
- Hurricane
- Bug Buzz
- Whirlwind

preliator, why Whirlwind on QD Volcarona? Give it Roost and now you have a solid answer that can stall Toxicroak for a burn :0

 

[preliator]

preliator, why Whirlwind on QD Volcarona? Give it Roost and now you have a solid answer that can stall Toxicroak for a burn :0

D: *face palming*... I totaly forgot that it got access to roost.... Arceus damn it! -.-"

But thank you very much! I'll edit this.... :-P

 

[Nix_Hex]

Like all things, getting a rapid spin off takes skill and planning, but it's very possible with the right planning and skill. It's just as fair to assume you CAN spin then to assume you can't.

Fair enough. That Volcarona is a counter, but takes a ton of damage in the process. Basically do what Pocket said if you're going to use it as a Toxicroak counter. Roost is very viable and Volcarona doesn't mind fitting it on a Hurricane set (though the lack of Fire Blast / Bug Buzz kind of sucks).

 

[preliator]

Volcarona (F) @ Leftovers
Trait: Flame Body
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Quiver Dance
- Hurricane
- Bug Buzz
- Roost

252 Atk Life Orb Toxicroak (+Atk) Drain Punch vs 252 HP/252 Def Volcarona (+Def) : 19,25% - 22,46%
6-8 hits to KO (with Leftovers)

252 Atk Life Orb Toxicroak (+Atk) Focus Punch vs 252 HP/252 Def Volcarona (+Def) : 38,24% - 44,92%
3 hits to KO (with Leftovers)

252 Atk Life Orb Toxicroak (+Atk) Sucker Punch vs 252 HP/252 Def Volcarona (+Def) : 27,27% - 32,09%
4-5 hits to KO (with Leftovers)

252 Atk Life Orb Toxicroak (+Atk) Ice Punch vs 252 HP/252 Def Volcarona (+Def) : 12,83% - 14,97%
11-15 hits to KO (with Leftovers)

252 Atk Life Orb Toxicroak (+Atk) Poison Jab vs 252 HP/252 Def Volcarona (+Def) : 40,91% - 48,13%
3 hits to KO (with Leftovers)


Also a bulky, rain abusing Volcarona seams like a good counter to me.
Resisting Croaks fighting moves, also resisting Ice Punch; access to Hurricane, Roost to stall for a possible burn and heal off taken SR damage (if up) - to not be damaged by Sucker-Punch (which wont do much anyways...), Flame Body as Volca's Traid.... but one big "thumps down" to Volca.. 4x SR weak..so you'll need RS support... otherwise a great counter if you ask me... exkeept Croak carries a stab poisen move, which most dont. Quiver Dance is its obvious boosting move! ;)

So I edited it's Set and changed the description!

 

[nob]

Fair enough. That Volcarona is a counter, but takes a ton of damage in the process. Basically do what Pocket said if you're going to use it as a Toxicroak counter. Roost is very viable and Volcarona doesn't mind fitting it on a Hurricane set (though the lack of Fire Blast / Bug Buzz kind of sucks).

I wholeheartedly agree that roost is a great choice if you're countering croak, but from what I read in the main post, you're supposed to post Pokemon that fit well on a team and that are used often, so I just chose an often used set to show that you don't even need roost to win. If you're looking for a good counter then just use Physically Defensive Skarmory.

 

[Ernesto]

Too bad Ninetales sucks, because if it didn't, it would make a great counter by changing the weather and forcing Toxicroak out (or to lose one eight of its max HP every turn), while Fire Blast could easily KO it after the Sub was broken... Anyway, with no defensive investment it is OHKO'd by Focus Punch every time after switching into SR, so I doubt it will work. You gotta admit it was a nice idea though :P

I'd also like to note that Slowbro can also use the CM set listed in its analysis (while it's still there) to set up on it while it Sucker Punches and probably forcing it out just for the switch-in to be met with a boosted STAB Psyshock or Scald if you predicted correctly (or Fire Blast, though as the given Toxicroak is on a Rain team, it won't work). I only say it because I may be one of the extremely few using CMBro in OU, and it can really do a number on the opponent by getting free turns every time it forces a physical attacker out (which happens more often than not)

 

[Nix_Hex]

Every weather starter except for Hippowdon is at worst 2HKOed on the switch, so changing the weather isn't really worth it at all against SubPunch Toxicroak.

 

[alphatron]

love that tentacruel set alphatron. as pure spinner it's gotta be one of the coolest i've seen; i had no idea cruel got acid spray and it is a kickass move. if i'm not mistaken though, cruel only needs 16 speed evs to outrun adamant breloom (who has 239 speed)? after all, you only need 32 speed evs to outrun tyranitar. i wouldn't rate that as a significant loss of bulk. any particular use for those 40 satk evs btw?

Woah, you're right. The 40 special attack EVs were put there at the last minute to remove the luck factor and secure the 2hko on keldeo with giga drain to be honest.

 

[Ernesto]

Every weather starter except for Hippowdon is at worst 2HKOed on the switch, so changing the weather isn't really worth it at all against SubPunch Toxicroak.

I know, but the fun thing about sun is that it immediately forces it out, like Pokés that rely on Water moves / Thunder / Hurricane. Either way, I won't even try tweaking the EV spread because it just isn't worth it. Having the chance to survive one Focus Punch and KO back (provided Ninetales switched into Substitute or took a Focus Punch and outsped) would really hinder the Fox Pokémon's already poor offensive capabilities.
I'd also like to note that I forgot to take Leftovers into account, so it would be around 1/16th health loss every turn, the same it would lose on Sand/Hail if it didn't have lefties (which still punishes Toxicroak)

 

[DerpGadget]

Spiritomb @ Leftovers
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 252 Def / 100 SAtk / 156 HP
Bold Nature

- Will-O-Wisp
- Psychic
- Rest
- Sleep Talk


None of Toxicroak's attacks can seriously damage a Physically Defensive Spiritomb, and it can hit back with Will o' Wisp, making it impossible for Toxicroak to KO, or with Psychic, and with the given SPatk Evs it's a clean OHKO.
Rest and sleep talk give Spiritomb a quite reliable form of recovery.

Now, some Calculations:

252 Atk Toxicroak (+Atk) Sucker Punch vs 156 HP/252 Def Spiritomb (+Def) : 20,36% - 24,29%
Entry hazards damage: 35
After entry hazards: 92 - 103 (32,86% - 36,79%)
5-6 hits to KO (with Leftovers)

252 Atk Toxicroak (+Atk) Ice Punch vs 156 HP/252 Def Spiritomb (+Def) : 19,29% - 22,86%
Entry hazards damage: 35
After entry hazards: 89 - 99 (31,79% - 35,36%)
5-7 hits to KO (with Leftovers)


100 SpAtk Spiritomb Psychic vs 244 HP/0 SpDef Toxicroak: 104,35% - 122,83%
Guaranteed OHKO