Counter This Pokemon [OLD VERSION]

[TheStarRapper]

I agree that Cresselia seems like the best counter, lets look at some other stuff

SpD Hippo is up for the challenge (EDIT: No he is certainly not, major brain fart)


Good unless outrage happens first turn

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And more derpy but still a decent counter if you don't think they will immediately outrage: Max Physical Defense Chansey can take some hits because she is fluffy.

Chansey (F) @ Eviolite
Trait: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Protect
- Wish
- Seismic Toss
- Toxic

Draco Meteor: 23.29 - 27.27%
Outrage: 43.32 - 50.99%
Fire Blast: 13.35 - 15.62%
Earthquake: 24.14 - 28.4%


Best Scenarios: Chansey comes in on a Draco Meteor or a Fire Blast or EQ, you can expect the Outrage to come next, so just wish and protect until you get confusion damage to start, from there you can toxic or S-Toss, or wait for Salamence to switch. You can also switch to a steel resist to revenge once they are locked into Outrage. (IE Choice Scarf Jirachi)

Chansey comes in on an Outrage: This one is a bit tougher, with SR it's a fairly reliable 2hko, but protect first turn that you are in and hope that they get the confusion to start kicking in.

Not great, just thought I'd add some variety.

If rain was allowed as part of the scheme--->

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With normal battle conditions we cannot assume rain, if we could then Bronzong functions well as a counter.

Bronzong @ Leftovers
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 84 Atk / 80 Def / 92 SDef
Sassy Nature (+SDef, -Spd)
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Earthquake
- Gyro Ball
- Stealth Rock

Hidden Power Ice: 68.88 - 80.96%

Draco Meteor: 27.81 - 32.84%
Outrage: 28.4 - 33.13%
Fire Blast: 32.24 - 37.57%

 

[Rackham]

One that seems to have been forgotten since the introduction of Ferrothorn, but a Pokemon that has always been reliable:

Vaporeon @Leftovers
248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpDef
Bold // Water Absorb
~Scald
~Ice Beam
~Wish
~Protect

The archetypal bulky water. OHKOs Salamence 100% of the time with Ice Beam off its impressive base 110 SpA and Wish+Protect allows it to support the team and consistently stay healthy. Scald is a great move generally anyway and can be used to burn Salamence or the potential switch i without much thought. Here are the calcs:

192 SpAtk Life Orb Salamence Draco Meteor vs 248 HP/8 SpDef Vaporeon: 56.37% - 66.31% A hefty amount of damage, yes, but Wish+Protect ensures healing and Salamence cannot deal this damage twice in a row.

64 Atk Life Orb Salamence Outrage vs 248 HP/252 Def Vaporeon (+Def) : 48.81% - 57.67%
This is the worrying bit, since it means that Salamence can KO through the combination of Draco Meteor and Outrage; however Vaporeon can scout Mence's next move through Protect.

64 Atk Life Orb Salamence Earthquake vs 248 HP/252 Def Vaporeon (+Def) : 27% - 31.97%

192 SpAtk Life Orb Salamence Fire Blast vs 248 HP/8 SpDef Vaporeon: LOL

So if Vaporeon switches in on a Draco Meteor you may have something to worry about; however, anything else and Salamence is screwed.

A slightly more reliable option, though only available to rain teams would be:

Vaporeon @Leftovers
248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpDef
Bold // Hydration
~Scald
~Ice Beam
~Rest
~Toxic / Protect

Obviously the calcs are the same, though here you get a 100% recovery move with no drawbacks. This set also supports the team well and can function as a makeshift stall-breaker with its resistance to status.

 

[WaterBomb]

Vaporeon is shaky, as Protect won't save it from being killed by Outrage after it has already taken a DM. Hell, even Outrage can 2HKO it with a turn of Protect factored in. The only way Vaporeon is winning this is if it switches into EQ or FB, and only Outrage if it's a low damage roll. Funny thing is this is one of the better options, despite it being shaky, since there are so few other mons who even come close.

 

[ganj4lF]

We must be using different damage calculators then. And really, your results differ from mine by less than 0.5%, so it doesn't matter in the slightest sense.

If you read the last sentence, I said that exact same thing you did.

My post was talking about the previous set of calcs, that you edited out (probably you didn't consider LO). Current ones are fine!

Anyway, back to the point. Since I can't think of anything that can avoid the 2HKO, KO back, and it's not already posted, I looked for something that can avoid the OHKO, outspeed and KO back. And I found...

Swampert @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Torrent
EVs: 24 HP / 248 Atk / 236 Spe
Nature: Jolly
- Waterfall
- Earthquake
- Ice Punch
- Superpower

This strategy works also with Suicune and probably other Water-type pokemons, bulky enough to switch in, outspeed thanks to the Scarf, and KO with an Ice attack. In particular, Swampert needs 24 HP EVs to avoid being OHKOed by Draco Meteor on the switch (it deals 93.65% max according to the manly calculator); it can then retaliate with Ice Punch for a guaranteed OHKO. Swampert has the surprise factor to its side: noone expect ScarfPert, and thus the Salamence player is more likely to stay in and grab the free Moxie boost, thus getting outsped and destroyed by Ice Punch. EVs allows Pert to outspeed all nonscarfed Tornadus-I and everything below; remaining EVs are pumped into Attack to get the maximum possible power.

Admittedly, ScarfPert or Scarf Suicune aren't great pokemons to run in OU just to counter MixMence. It's a shame that ScarfToed doesn't have enough bulk to be used in that way. However, if you don't want to cripple yourself carrying such an odd pokemon, remember that this Mence set has a crapload of good checks perfectly viable in OU: Mamowsine, Latios, every HP Ice user faster than base 100, Ice Shard users, and the list goes on...I often find more effective to rely on prediction and a couple of checks against Mence than to carry a hard counter which is not that good overall.

 

[Electrolyte]

A lot of great counters were listed, but since the counter list is quite starved out, I'll post a few checks.

Gyarados @ Choice Scarf
Adamant Nature
4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Moxie
~Bounce
~Waterfall
~Ice Fang
~Stone Edge

Gyarados is a check because it falls after SR. It only works with bulky spinners like Donphan. You could opt for Intimidate, so Outrage doesn't KO you even after rocks, but that's kind of a dumb idea because Draco Meteor OHKO's after rocks too. (thanks WB I missed that)

64 Atk Outrage- 84-99%
196 SpA Draco Meteor- 76-90%

252+ Ice fang- 110-131%

 

[WaterBomb]

A lot of great counters were listed, but since the counter list is quite starved out, I'll post a few checks.

Gyarados @ Choice Scarf
Adamant Nature
4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Moxie
~Bounce
~Waterfall
~Ice Fang
~Stone Edge

Gyarados is a check because it falls after SR. It only works with bulky spinners like Donphan. You could opt for Intimidate, so Outrage doesn't KO you even after rocks, but that's kind of a dumb idea because Draco Meteor has a chance (a smaller chance) of OHKO'ing after Rocks too.

64 Atk Outrage- 84-99%
196 SpA Draco Meteor- 76-90%

252+ Ice fang- 110-131%

Actually since SR does 25% to Gyarados, Draco Meteor is a guaranteed OHKO as well. I did think of the intimidate Gyarados but it would only be able to come in once, and it would be locked into Ice Fang which sucks outside of killing Mence. It could be good as a revenge killer though, or with good spinning support.

EDIT: Lol so apparently Intimidate Scarf Stoutland is an option, with 236 Atk/196 SpD/96 Spe it survives Draco Meteor after rocks and OHKOs Mence with Ice Fang. I know it'll never be used but GO STOUTLAND!

 

[Kiyo]

God, this thing is incredibly tough to find a counter for. The best thing I could find was Chansey:

Chansey @ Eviolite
Trait: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
Bold Nature
- Counter
- Softboiled
- Seismic Toss
- Toxic

If Chansey can come in on anything but an outrage, it has a solid chance at countering the new mixmence because after rocks its the only attack it cant be guaranteed to successfully take two of.
Draco Meteor: 22.72 - 26.98%Outrage: 43.18 - 50.85%Fire Blast: 13.21 - 15.62%Earthquake: 23.86 - 28.12%

The idea is pretty straight forward, you come in on FB, EQ, or DM and proceed to hit counter the next turn. Even if Mence scores a low damage roll counter still does 86% to Mence, and life orb takes away 20% of his health after two hits so its a solid KO after recoil damage. This strategy means you have to predict perfectly otherwise you've basically handed the opponent a +1 attack Salamence.

 

[Shining_Latios]

Dusclops @ Eviolite
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 80 Defense / 176 Special Defense
Calm Nature
- Will-O-Wisp
- Pain Split
- Seismic Toss
- Night Shade

Dusclops can come in on any of MixMence's attacks and not take more than 50% damage. Dusclops can proceed to heal the damage off with Pain Split or force Salamence to use Special Attacks by using WoW. Dusclops won't mind the Special Attacks at all, because by using Draco Meteor, Salamence's Special Attack is lowered, allowing Dusclops to attack it or heal it off and Dusclops definitely can take 21-25% from Fire Blast. Seismic Toss and Night Shade are good if you want to inflict 30% damage. Here are the calculations;

Fire Blast: 21.47 - 25.35%
Earthquake: 22.53 - 26.76%
Draco Meteor: 37.32 - 44.36%
Outrage: 40.49 - 47.88%

 

[Kiyo]

Dusclops @ Eviolite
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 80 Defense / 176 Special Defense
Calm Nature
- Will-O-Wisp
- Pain Split
- Seismic Toss
- Night Shade

Nice set, that's probably the best counter we'll find tbh. I considered posting the ResTalk variant, but with 5th gen mechanics its never a smart option.

 

[ganj4lF]

Dusclops @ Eviolite
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 80 Defense / 176 Special Defense
Calm Nature
- Will-O-Wisp
- Pain Split
- Seismic Toss
- Night Shade

Dusclops can come in on any of MixMence's attacks and not take more than 50% damage. Dusclops can proceed to heal the damage off with Pain Split or force Salamence to use Special Attacks by using WoW. Dusclops won't mind the Special Attacks at all, because by using Draco Meteor, Salamence's Special Attack is lowered, allowing Dusclops to attack it or heal it off and Dusclops definitely can take 21-25% from Fire Blast. Seismic Toss and Night Shade are good if you want to inflict 30% damage. Here are the calculations;

Fire Blast: 21.47 - 25.35%
Earthquake: 22.53 - 26.76%
Draco Meteor: 37.32 - 44.36%
Outrage: 40.49 - 47.88%

You forgot to mention that...
Outrage: 115-136 (40.49 - 47.88%) -- 59.38% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Even if Outrage fails to 2HKO, you have to rely on a 75% accuracy move to cripple Mence, since Pain Split will just delay the inevitable; overall a very shaky counter.

 

[WaterBomb]

Not to mention even if you survive the second attack to use WoW, you'll still be in KO range of whatever he uses next. Just a check, not a full counter IMO.

 

[Shining_Latios]

You forgot to mention that...
Outrage: 115-136 (40.49 - 47.88%) -- 59.38% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Even if Outrage fails to 2HKO, you have to rely on a 75% accuracy move to cripple Mence, since Pain Split will just delay the inevitable; overall a very shaky counter.

Oh yeah, sorry about that. I guess I have to kind of agree it's kind of a risky counter.

 

[Electrolyte]

oh, I have another check:

Sharpedo @ Focus Sash
252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
~Protect
~Ice Fang
~Crunch
~Waterfall

Sharpedo avoids the OHKO regardless on the switch in. It then Protects until it's at +2, and then outspeeds for the OHKO with Ice Fang. This is a checl because, on the rare occurrence that you get burned with Fire Blast, you fail. It also doesn't work if there are hazards up to break it's sash.

252+ Ice Fang- 139-164% to 0/0 Salamence

 

[Nix_Hex]

Remember Electrolyte, Stealth Rock is assumed to be in play, so Focus Sash doesn't count. I've been using this very Salamence set on a team I just created and I know this is against the spirit of "Counter This Pokemon," but the fact that it's sort of hard to bring in and is outspeed by so many Pokemon these days somewhat mitigates the fact that it is damn near impossible to wall without going the distance with Pokemon like Cresselia.

 

[Rackham]

-To be considered a check, a Pokemon must be able to switch into at least one but not all of the opponent's moves under normal battle conditions, including taking damage from Stealth Rock, and reliably KO the opponent before the counter is KOed itself

*Normal Battle Conditions consist of the following:

• Stealth Rock is up on the counter's (your) side of the field.
• Stealth Rock is not up on the featured Pokemon's (opponent's) side of the field.

oh, I have another check:

Sharpedo @ Focus Sash
252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
~Protect
~Ice Fang
~Crunch
~Waterfall

Sharpedo avoids the OHKO regardless on the switch in. It then Protects until it's at +2, and then outspeeds for the OHKO with Ice Fang. This is a checl because, on the rare occurrence that you get burned with Fire Blast, you fail. It also doesn't work if there are hazards up to break it's sash.

It's a check in that it can only switch in once but even then, it's a poor solution at best.

A rather different check:

Bulky scarf Jirachi!

Jirachi @Choice Scarf
252 HP / 158 Atk / 100 Spe
Jolly Nature
~Iron Head
~Ice Punch
~Thunderpunch
~Trick

Has enough bulk to take one Fire Blast / Earthquake and OHKO with Ice Punch, whilst retaining enough speed to outspeed +1 Jolly Gyarados. When played this acts as more of a utility counter than revenge-killer, able to check many OU threats. Obviously, if you come in on Outrage you have a dead Salamence. Many people expect SpDef Jirachi so this set can often surprise the MixMence user.

 

[Ashley11]

I've been using this set and it has worked great for salamence.

Gyrados@choice scarf
Ability moxie
Nature jolly
Evs 252 attack 252 sPeed 4 hp
Earthquake
Stone Edge
Waterfall
Ice Fang

This set works really well against salamence. First of all, outspeeds mence with a choice scarf. After that use ice gang and it dies from a 4x super effective ice fang.
Then you get a nice moxie boost.

 

[Hemp Man]

I've been using this set and it has worked great for salamence.

Gyrados@choice scarf
Ability moxie
Nature jolly
Evs 252 attack 252 sPeed 4 hp
Earthquake
Stone Edge
Waterfall
Ice Fang

This set works really well against salamence. First of all, outspeeds mence with a choice scarf. After that use ice gang and it dies from a 4x super effective ice fang.
Then you get a nice moxie boost.

Only works with Stealth Rock isn't set up. :/

 

[Electrolyte]

Remember Electrolyte, Stealth Rock is assumed to be in play, so Focus Sash doesn't count. I've been using this very Salamence set on a team I just created and I know this is against the spirit of "Counter This Pokemon," but the fact that it's sort of hard to bring in and is outspeed by so many Pokemon these days somewhat mitigates the fact that it is damn near impossible to wall without going the distance with Pokemon like Cresselia.

Lol sorry, I realize that it was kind of against the rules. Salamence is just too hard to counter, lol, so I posted some checks. I'll try not to do it again in the future. (and probably try to get here faster)

 

[HabibsHotDogs]

Alakazam @ Focus sash
Trait: Magic Guard
4Hp / 252 SpAtk / 252+ Spd
-Psyshock
-Hidden Power [ice]
-Focus Blast
-Shadow Ball/Calm Mind

Alakazam is fairly straightforward, switches in on anything in any condition and ohkoes with hidden power ice. Alakazam has the option of calm minding if it ever finds the opportunity and psyshock keeps it useful against Keldeo/Virizion/Blissey/Breloom etc. Alakazam only gets one chance to use its sash though.

Terrakion @ Air baloon
Trait: Justified
200 Atk / 56 SpD / 252+ Spd
-Stone Edge
-Close Combat
-Rock Polish
-Swords Dance

Terrakion with the following Ev's lives every move on the switch, it ohkoes with stone edge 80% of the time. Taking into account crits, Salamence has a 6% chance of ohkoing it with either outrage or draco meteor only. Salamence also has a 20% chance of living the next turn, making this Terrakion a hard counter 76% of the time. It should be noted in a sandstorm Terrakion doesn't even need the special defence investment since it easily survives a draco meteor.

 

[WaterBomb]

EDIT: I'm retarded, thought rocks broke the Air Balloon. Since they don't, this widens the counter list a tad bit. Also I knew about Alakazam's Magic Sash exception, which is why I didn't quote it since it's solid. I was referring to other users who posted Sash sets on pokes that didn't have magic guard.

Why don't stealth rocks pop your Air Balloon again?

 

[alkinesthetase]

^ pretty sure rocks don't break balloon, and alakazam's sash will be intact because of magic guard, so these are special cases imo. i wouldn't consider either of them perfect counters since balloon - as always - is an item fraught with risk, although according to the rules of the thread, they can technically do the job.

EDIT: responding to waterbomb's edit above. air balloon only breaks when you take direct damage from an attack (ie if it would deal damage to a magic guarded mon, it'll break air balloon). status, weather, hazard damage - anything that battlers would generally deem "residual" - does not break balloon. ofc, if you take an immune attack (heatran @ balloon switching into fire attacks for example) the balloon is not broken since you took no damage

 

[Electrolyte]

I've been using this set and it has worked great for salamence.

Gyrados@choice scarf
Ability moxie
Nature jolly
Evs 252 attack 252 sPeed 4 hp
Earthquake
Stone Edge
Waterfall
Ice Fang

This set works really well against salamence. First of all, outspeeds mence with a choice scarf. After that use ice gang and it dies from a 4x super effective ice fang.
Then you get a nice moxie boost.

I already posted this exact set... And who the heck runs Alakazam with HP Ice? Most people run HP fire to deal with Steels.

Also Alkinesthetase is right, neither Alakazam nor Terrakion lose their item from Stealth Rock.

 

[Sewa]

Not sure how you did your calcs, because mine show Stone Edge as a guaranteed OHKO on Salamence (114.19 - 134.74%). Also Stealth Rocks are in effect so EQ will hit and has a 50% chance to OHKO after rock damage. You would need to invest in Defense as well to make Terrakion survive, which is something it just cannot do.

I swear, if I see one more person post a counter with an Air Balloon or Focus Sash without taking Stealth Rocks into account, I swear...

READ THE DAMN RULES

80% chance to kill is for the chance stone edge will miss. Air baloon is not popped by rocks

 

[Elephant]

Alakazam @ Focus sash
Trait: Magic Guard
4Hp / 252 SpAtk / 252+ Spd
-Psyshock
-Hidden Power [ice]
-Focus Blast
-Shadow Ball/Calm Mind

Alakazam is fairly straightforward, switches in on anything in any condition and ohkoes with hidden power ice. Alakazam has the option of calm minding if it ever finds the opportunity and psyshock keeps it useful against Keldeo/Virizion/Blissey/Breloom etc. Alakazam only gets one chance to use its sash though.

i dont see this set that often on alakazams even though its very solid. i would just run shadow ball over CM because of zam's frailty however..

 

[Nysyr]

Salamence is usually something you deal with by revenging while it is locked into outrage, so for the outright counter I'm definitely gonna have to say that Porygon2 set that was posted is probably the closest thing there is to a counter.