Counter This Pokemon [OLD VERSION]

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Electrolyte

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Alright, it looks like the ideas for Salamence are almost about dried up- though there were some very interesting answers. NixHex asked me to post the next pokemon, so here we go!

The next pokemon has lingered in the bottom of DPP UU- until BW blessed with one of the best moves in the whole game! This pokemon has always been known for its monstrous Defense and awesome ability, however its low Special Defense stat and average ability has made many people forget about it. If you guessed this pokemon was Cloyster, then you're right!


Cloyster @ Focus Sash
Skill Link
Jolly nature (+Spe, -SpA)
4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
~Shell Smash
~Icicle Spear
~Rock Blast
~Razor Shell

This pokemon becomes a monster once it sets up- and its focus sash allows it to do just so. It also has very good natural defense, and even though its speed and sp defense are not as good, this pokemon's ability has definitely earned it a spot in OU.

I hope we have a lot of solid and interesting counters. Good luck!
 

Arcticblast

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Jellicent @ Leftovers
Nature: Bold
EVs: 248 HP / 216 Def / 44 Spe
Ability: Water Absorb
- Scald
- Will-O-Wisp
- Recover
- Taunt

Literally taken straight from the analysis. Jellicent is able to come in as Cloyster uses Shell Smash, and burn it on the first Rock Blast. Cloyster will not be able to KO Jellicent after it is burned, and Jellicent can freely use Recover. If Cloyster tries to use Shell Smash again, Scald punishes it.
 
Slowbro can take practically any of Cloyster's moves thanks to its own monstrous defense. On this set, it only takes neutral from Rock Blast, and even that won't hurt too much, even after a Shell Smash boost.



Slowbro @ Leftovers
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SAtk
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Slack Off
- Scald
- Psychic
- Ice Beam
 

NixHex

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Empoleon @ Leftovers

Ability: Torrent
Nature: Modest
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
-Hydro Pump / Surf
-Grass Knot
-Ice Beam
-Aqua Jet

First, some calculations:
+2 Rock Blast: 122-144 (39.35 - 46.45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 Icicle Spear / Razor Shell: 29.07 - 34.5%
+0 Icicle Spear: 14.83 - 17.41% (on the switch)
You can switch in on Shell Smash, spank it with Hydro Pump (or Surf or even Grass Knot if you're worried about Accuracy), then Aqua Jet to finish it off. Empoleon's typing and decent defenses are on display here. Aqua Jet may seem like a gimmick but it showed up every once in a while in DPP and helps pick off any other Focus Sash users and weakened Water-weaks.
 
EDIT: Ah, NixHex beat me to it.


Empoleon @ Leftovers
Trait: Torrent
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SDef / 4 Spe
Calm Nature
- Scald
- Grass Knot
- Stealth Rock
- Roar / Yawn

Cloyster's strongest move against Empoleon is Rock Blast, which, even after a Shell Smash. isn't a guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock damage. Grass Knot is used over Ice Beam, as although Scald will 2HKO Focus Sash variants, it will not 2HKO Cloyster if it uses White Herb, whereas Grass Knot will OHKO Cloysters with White Herb.
 
Hate to sound like a broken record but:


Vaporeon @Leftovers
248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpDef
Bold // Water Absorb
~Scald
~HP Electric
~Wish
~Protect / Ice Beam

We all know what it does. Scald for STAB and burn chance, HP Electric to nail other water types. Vaporeon is conveniently immune to one of Cloyster's STABs, too. In return, Vaporeon can nail it with HP Electric.

252 Atk Cloyster Rock Blast vs 248 HP/252 Def Vaporeon (+Def) : 23.33% - 27.65% (5-6HKO)
252 +2 Atk Cloyster Rock Blast vs 248 HP/252 Def Vaporeon (+Def) : 46.44% - 54.86% (3HKO factoring in Protect turns)


The only worry here is being too predictable with your protects and allowing it another boost; however, you should be able to finish it off fairly quickly yourself.

0 SpAtk Vaporeon Hidden Power Electric vs 48 HP/0 SpDef Cloyster: 80.63% - 95.65% (2HKO)
0 SpAtk Vaporeon Hidden Power Electric vs 48 HP/0 -1 SpDef Cloyster: 120.95% - 143.08%


Assuming you don't switch into a +2 Rock Blast, Vaporeon can handle Cloyster fairly effectively. This seems a reasonable assumption to make as it is doubtful that you would give Cloyster a free turn to set up and a turn to hit you on the switch in, retaining an intact Focus Sash.

Although, a more reliable counter would probably be:

EDIT: Looks like Machina got there first


Slowbro @Leftovers
252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature // Regenerator
~Scald
~Psychic
~Slack Off
~Thunder Wave / Fire Blast

Functions pretty much identically, although with higher defence stat (at the expense of its SpDef) and, in this scenario, preferable method of healing. In addition, Slowbro can attempt to cripple any opposing switch-in with T-wave.

252 +2 Atk Cloyster Rock Blast vs 252 HP/252 Def Slowbro (+Def) : 37.56% - 44.42% (3HKO)
4 SpAtk Slowbro Psychic vs 48 HP/0 SpDef Cloyster: 72.33% - 85.38% (2HKO) (OHKO after Shell Smash)


As you can see, Slowbro can switch in on Cloyster at +2 and still beat it one on one assuming it is in decent health. With Regenerator, this is likely. Unlike Vaporeon, Slowbro lacks Wish and therefore Slowbro cannot heal other members of the team, but can still provide excellent support by spreading paralysis. In addition, Slowbro has a key Fighting resistance .
 


Jirachi @ Leftovers
Trait: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 HP / 220 Def / 36 Spd
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Calm Mind
- Wish
- Thunderbolt
- Flash Cannon

This Jirachi can withstand any hit from Cloyster, even at +2. A +2 Razor Shell in neutral weather does 40-47%, whereas Jirachi will easily OHKO in return with Thunderbolt. In rain, +2 Razor Shell does 60-70%; although Jirachi will come out on top if you switch it in on a predicted Shell Smash, providing Stealth Rock is down to break Cloyster's sash.
 

Suicune @ Leftovers
Pressure
Bold
252 HP/252 Def/6 SpD
-Surf
-Calm Mind
-Rest
-Sleep Talk

Suicune's great bulk lets it tank any of Cloyster's attacks at +2 and then 2HKO -1 SpD Cloyster with Surf. The only problem here is that due to the nature of Rock Blast hitting 5 times in a row you're much more likely to get crit haxed than normal and therefore there is a possible chance of getting 2HKOed rather than 3HKOed, but there's not really much you can do about that unfortunately.

Cloyster +2 Rock Blast vs Suicune
578 Atk vs 361 Def & 404 HP (125 Base Power): 144 - 170 (35.64% - 42.08%)
3HKO after Stealth Rock

Suicune Surf vs -1 Cloyster
216 Atk vs 84 Def & 242 HP (95 Base Power): 131 - 155 (54.13% - 64.05%)
2HKO

EDIT: @Groudon ex, remember that Razor Shell has a 50% chance of lowering Defense, so that Jirachi is a shaky counter at best seeing how it gets 2HKOed 47.5% of the time factoring in Razor Shell's accuracy and the Defense drop.
 

Poliwrath @ Leftovers
Water Absorb
Relaxed
252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Atk
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Circle Throw
- Ice Beam / Scald

I know I've seen this on here before, although I can't remember who was repping it so much. Poliwrath resists Rock Blast and Icicle Spear, and is immune to Razor Shell. Switch in on Shell Smash, then click Circle Throw. It's not even very overspecialized, since it's a nifty phazer and a lot of people underestimate it or don't know that it has Circle Throw. Calcs:

+2 Cloyster Icicle Spear: 125-150 (32.55 - 39.06%) -- 79.37% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
Poliwrath Circle Throw (-1 Cloyster): 104-122 (43.15 - 50.62%) -- 4.69% chance to 2HKO

Getting a 2HKO with Circle Throw doesn't really matter anyway, although it's nice to get damage on it. Best paired with a cleric, since ResTalk is a bit meh. Scald is slashed for burn chance, although Ice Beam is a bit more relevant to OU to hit Gliscor and Dragons on the switch.
 


Quagsire @ Leftovers
Unaware
Sassy
252 HP / 244 Def / 12 Spd

- Earthquake
- Recover
- Scald
- Toxic/Encore/Yawn

Barring Razor Shell hax and no burning with Scald, Cloyster cannot do nothing to Quagsire, also Quagsire is pretty useful in OU.

Cloyster with Icicle Spear: 33%-39%, almost 3KO with Leftovers

Quagsire with Scald: 23%-27%, nothing to laugh at counting 30% burning rate.

Encore is better with paralysis support, once saved me against a CM Virizion.

The 12 Ev's in Spd are for outspeeding Quagsire -Spd natured and Reuniclus without TR and Encore/EQ(if very weakened), really anything game-changing most of the time, but, dropping 12 Evs in defense would be almost the same.



Also, Isn't there an error in the electrolyte's post presenting the mon for to counter?


The next pokemon has lingered in the bottom of DPP UU- until BW blessed with one of the best moves in the whole game! This pokemon has always been known for its monstrous Defense and awesome ability, however its low Special Defense stat and average ability has made many people forget about it. If you guessed this pokemon was Cloyster, then you're right!
 

ganj4lF

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Politoed @ Leftovers
Trait: Drizzle
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Nature: Bold
- Scald
- Toxic
- Protect
- Perish Song / Encore

It doesn't wall Cloyster as hard as Vaporeon does (damnit Rackham, you ninjaed me) but still can counter it fairly reliably, or at least end its sweep attempt cold. If Cloyster attacks on the switch, his best option is to Rock Blast, which deals maximum 29.42% to Politoed, that can just attack back with Scald or go for the Perish Song/Encore to cripple it. If it chooses to boost himself instead, Politoed gets a free switch-in, and can proceed to Perish Song, while taking 58.33% maximum from a +2 Rock Blast; then it proceeds to stall with Protect and switch to something that can take an attack with relative impunity (for example, a Ferrothorn); this relies slightly on prediction, of course, bit I just find Perish Song to be more effective all-around. If you're running Encore, you must rely on defensive synergy, locking Cloyster into a move and switching into a bulky pokemon that can take it with little problems and attack back.

This is probably more a check than a counter, since it requires the help of something else in your team; however Politoed is extremely useful in OU in general, and a very common sight in most teams (it just took #1 in usage statistics from Scizor!). This fact needs to be considered whenever you want to throw a Cloyster into your team: you better have a reliable way to lure/weaken Politoed before attempting a sweep, because it can easily stop you and force you to switch (possibly taking more SR damage, and Cloyster hates SR over everything else), and it's literally on every other team on the ladder.

EDIT: for some reason I thought the last move was Hydro Pump. With Razor Shell, Cloyster is MUCH less dangerous, and, for example, can be walled by...


Skarmory @ Leftovers / Shed Shell
Trait: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 232 Def / 24 Spe
Nature: Impish
- Brave Bird
- Roost
- Spikes
- Whirlwind

Skarmory boasts a ridiculous physical bulk, that allows him to handle Cloyster even at +2. Icicle Spear is the most powerful attack Cloyster can use, and it will deal 33.53% max if unboosted, and 66.46% after a boost. This means Skarmory can easily switch in, take SR damage, and whirlwind Cloyster out regardless of what it does, and it can also heal the damage took in the process with Roost, if Whirlwind selects a not-so-much-threatening pokemon.
 


Quagsire @ Leftovers
Unaware
Relaxed
252 HP / 244 Def / 12 Spd

- Earthquake
- Recover
- Scald/Toxic
- Toxic/Yawn/Encore

Barring Razor Shell hax and no burning with Scald, Cloyster cannot do nothing to Quagsire, also Quagsire is pretty useful in OU for to counter or at least check an array of physical threats not named Haxorus(Mold Breaker)

Cloyster with Icicle Spear: 33%-39%, almost 3KO with Leftovers

Quagsire with Scald: 23%-27%, nothing to laugh at counting 30% burning rate.

Encore is better with paralysis support, once saved me against a CM Virizion.

The 12 Ev's in Spd are for outspeeding Quagsire -Spd natured and Reuniclus without TR and Encore/EQ(if very weakened), really anything game-changing most of the time, but, dropping 12 Evs in defense would be almost the same.
 
Half of these wouldn't be counters if Cloyster were Adamant instead of Jolly. What does Cloyster need 524 Speed for that can't be accomplished with 478?
 

Sayonara

don't forget
Half of these wouldn't be counters if Cloyster were Adamant instead of Jolly. What does Cloyster need 524 Speed for that can't be accomplished with 478?
Outspeed Modest Venusaur (in Sun), Scarf Terrakion and Scarf Latios ?__?

pretty important imo, as they can all come in and revenge-kill +2 Cloyster if it was Adamant
 
Outspeed Modest Venusaur (in Sun), Scarf Terrakion and Scarf Latios ?__?

pretty important imo, as they can all come in and revenge-kill +2 Cloyster if it was Adamant
Only if Latios is running HP Fire. And I just figured the point of this thread would be Pokémon that are hard to counter, regardless of being revenge killed. But to contribute:

Metagross - Leftovers
Adamant - Clear Body
252 HP 252 Atk 4 Def
Stealth Rock
Meteor Mash
Hammer Arm
Bullet Punch

252 +2 Atk Cloyster Razor Shell vs 252 HP/4 Def Metagross: 43.13% - 51.1%
252 +2 Atk Cloyster Icicle Spear vs 252 HP/4 Def Metagross: 7.14% - 8.52% (35.7% - 42.6%)
252 +2 Atk Cloyster Rock Blast vs 252 HP/4 Def Metagross: 4.67% - 5.77% (23.4% - 28.9%)

252 Atk Metagross (+Atk) Meteor Mash vs 4 HP/0 -1 Def Cloyster: 68.18% - 80.58%
252 Atk Metagross (+Atk) Hammer Arm vs 4 HP/0 -1 Def Cloyster: 90.91% - 107.44%
252 Atk Metagross (+Atk) Bullet Punch vs 4 HP/0 -1 Def Cloyster: 27.69% - 32.64%

Edit 1:
Latios can OHKO Cloyster with Draco Meteor...
So you're saying that outspeeding Choice Scarf HP Fire Latios doesn't actually matter contrary to what you said earlier?

Edit 2: That's per hit WB (fixed)
Metagross comes in on SS Cloyster and is hurt by Stealth Rock doing 23 damage. 341/364 and takes a Razor Shell doing 157 - 186 damage. 155 - 184/364 Leftovers heals back 23 HP. 178 - 207/364 Metagross takes a second Razor Shell doing 157 - 186 damage. So there's roughly a 4% chance of the first Razor Shell doing enough damage to be able to kill Metagross on the second Razor Shell which would need a 28% chance to roll high enough to finish him off, both disregarding accuracy. Ultimately about 1% of the time Cloyster will win (still ignoring accuracy)
 

WaterBomb

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@Bogmire - I'd say Suicune could be a bit of a risky counter. If you bring out Suicune on a +2 Rock Blast (a guaranteed 3HKO), you'll be forced to use Rest on the next turn since you're already slower than Cloyster. Cloyster's player would know this and could just use another Shell Smash, putting it at +4 attack and putting Suicune into 2HKO range of Rock Blast. Even if Sleep talk yielded Surf on the first turn, you'd die before getting to use it a second time anyway. You'd then have a +4 Cloyster on your hands and your only way to kill it would be with priority.

@Zacch - are you sure those calcs are right? I find it difficult to believe +2 Rock Blast and Icicle Spear are doing less than 10% to metagross. Anyway it's a pretty good idea but it still has a small chance to be 2HKOed by Razor Shell after Stealth Rock. You can take care of Cloy with a combination of Hammer Arm followed by Bullet Punch though.

Anyway, to participate:



Registeel @ Leftovers
Impish Nature
Clear Body
252 HP/252 Def/4 SpD
-Thunder Wave
-Seismic Toss
-Protect
-Stealth Rock

Defensive Registeel is only 4HKOed by +2 Razor Shell (29.67 - 34.89%), meaning it can switch in, Thunder Wave, then proceed to Seismic Toss Cloyster to death, Protecting in between to gain more Leftovers recovery. Due to Cloyster's low HP, Seismic Toss is an easy 3HKO. Boring I know, but it works :)
 
@Bogmire - I'd say Suicune could be a bit of a risky counter. If you bring out Suicune on a +2 Rock Blast (a guaranteed 3HKO), you'll be forced to use Rest on the next turn since you're already slower than Cloyster. Cloyster's player would know this and could just use another Shell Smash, putting it at +4 attack and putting Suicune into 2HKO range of Rock Blast. Even if Sleep talk yielded Surf on the first turn, you'd die before getting to use it a second time anyway. You'd then have a +4 Cloyster on your hands and your only way to kill it would be with priority.
The idea is to bring out Suicune on the turn that it uses Shell Smash, not after its already used it. If you give it a free turn to Shell Smash (dunno why you would let it do that unless your opponent had Wobbuffet) then yeah its not going to work. You're still right it is risky, but mainly due to Rock Blast's 5 chances to crit each time Cloyster attacks (but then again it has a 10% chance of missing, too)
 
My turn, and something I've used to counter this beast before:


Sableye @ Leftovers
Trait: Prankster
EV's: 248 HP / 120 Def / 136 SpD / 4 Spd
Nature: Calm
IV's: 0 Atk / 0 SpA (as if these mattered)
- Will-O-Wisp
- Recover
- Taunt
- Foul Play

Once you burn Cloyster, assuming it got to +2, here's all it can do:

252 +2 Atk Cloyster Razor Shell vs 248 HP/120 Def Sableye: 35.97% - 42.57%
252 +2 Atk Cloyster Icicle Spear vs 248 HP/120 Def Sableye: 12.21% - 14.85% (61.05% - 74.25% with Skill Link)
252 +2 Atk Cloyster Rock Blast vs 248 HP/120 Def Sableye: 8.25% - 9.9% (41.25% - 49.5% with Skill Link)

It's risky with Icicle Spear, but you can still stall it a bit with Recover letting burn take its toll, or fire back when you can with Foul Play:

0 Atk Sableye (-Atk) Foul Play vs 4 HP/0 Def Cloyster (at +2): 61.98% - 73.14%
0 Atk Sableye (-Atk) Foul Play vs 4 HP/0 Def Cloyster: 31.4% - 37.19%

It takes careful play and knowing your opponent. It also matters if you had to switch into Cloyster as it sets up, or you were both in at the same time. Taunt keeps it from setting up further, or from setting up at all if you're lucky. As a side note, even if Sableye doesn't completely stop Cloyster itself, the priority burn can allow another member of your team to take out this entirely physical version of Cloyster.
 
My turn, and something I've used to counter this beast before:


Sableye @ Leftovers
Trait: Prankster
EV's: 248 HP / 120 Def / 136 SpD / 4 Spd
Nature: Calm
IV's: 0 Atk / 0 SpA (as if these mattered)
- Will-O-Wisp
- Recover
- Taunt
- Foul Play

Once you burn Cloyster, assuming it got to +2, here's all it can do:

252 +2 Atk Cloyster Razor Shell vs 248 HP/120 Def Sableye: 35.97% - 42.57%
252 +2 Atk Cloyster Icicle Spear vs 248 HP/120 Def Sableye: 12.21% - 14.85% (61.05% - 74.25% with Skill Link)
252 +2 Atk Cloyster Rock Blast vs 248 HP/120 Def Sableye: 8.25% - 9.9% (41.25% - 49.5% with Skill Link)

It's risky with Icicle Spear, but you can still stall it a bit with Recover letting burn take its toll, or fire back when you can with Foul Play:

0 Atk Sableye (-Atk) Foul Play vs 4 HP/0 Def Cloyster (at +2): 61.98% - 73.14%
0 Atk Sableye (-Atk) Foul Play vs 4 HP/0 Def Cloyster: 31.4% - 37.19%

It takes careful play and knowing your opponent. It also matters if you had to switch into Cloyster as it sets up, or you were both in at the same time. Taunt keeps it from setting up further, or from setting up at all if you're lucky. As a side note, even if Sableye doesn't completely stop Cloyster itself, the priority burn can allow another member of your team to take out this entirely physical version of Cloyster.
Cool one, not something I would have thought of. Unfortunately, Sableye can't defeat variants that use Hydro Pump, as it has a 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock damage.
 
sableye doesn't work: they use icicle spear (does 70% on average) on the switch-in (or they're burned and at +2) and then they use icicle spear again for 70% more damage. recover only heals 50%, so after 2 turns you're guaranteed to die.
 


Did ya'll forget about this guy?
Magnezone@Leftovers
Ability: Magnet Pull
Nature: Calm
252 HP/252 Def/4 SpA
-Thunderbolt
-HP Fire
-Flash Cannon
-Volt Switch/Thunderbolt

Magnezone switches in while Cloyster uses Shell Smash. You now have 2 choices: Volt Switch and bring him down to his sash and bring in a priority user or weather inducer or Thunderbolt and do the same thing except stay in. With Max defense, Magnezone avoids getting 2HKO'd by any of Cloyster's attacks. It's strongest move is Razor Shell, which does 41.27 - 48.83% with a non-defense boosting nature. Without Cloyster's sash, volt Switch would do 164.31 - 194.19% and Thunderbolt would do an astonishing 222.4 - 262.24%. These calcs for Magnezone attacking are without Cloysters defense drop from using Shell Smash, too. In other words, Cloyster would get it's shell smashed by Magnezone, no pun intended.
The smartest thing to do is the first option, where you Volt Switch and either let Tyranitar's or Hippowdon's Sand Stream kill Cloyster, are let any pokemon on your team with a priority move of any sort put an end to Cloyster.
 
This one's a bit shaky, but here it goes:




Blastoise@Leftovers
Ability: Rain Dish
Nature: Bold
252 HP/252 Def/4 SpD

~Scald
~Toxic
~Roar
~Rapid Spin

Essentially, you switch in while they Shell Smash, and then you have two options. You can Roar the Cloyster away, or you can go for the Scald and hope for the burn. Rock Blast does 45.58-53.86% which has a 97% chance to 2HKO, but if it's raining, that would lower to a 59% chance to 2HKO because of Rain Dish. This means that you will always be able to Roar it out and have half of your HP left. If you opt for Scald, and get the burn, then Rock Blast does 22.09-26.24%, meaning you can Roar it out on turn 2 without fear of KO.

Is this the best counter in the world? No, it is not. It is generally outclassed by Tentacruel as a rain team Rapid Spinner, but I do think it deserves mention as at least a check to Cloyster.
 

Milotic@leftovers
Ability: Marvel Scale
Nature Bold
Ev 252 Hp 252 def 4 spd

-Rest
-Sleep Talk
-Scald
-Dragon Tail

Millotic can come in on cloyser using a shell shash and rest up. From then, milotic can either phase it or damage it with scald. Even at +2 rock blast fails to 2HKO a sleeping milotic, while in return milotic can 2HKO with scald after the defense drops. Icicle spear does nothing to milotic and can't even 4HKO while razor shell is only a 6HKO. If the opponent decides to switch, milotic can simply use dragon tail on the switch and rack up more damage and potentially put the match in your favor.
 

Asek

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Just a question, can we assume that rain is up? Most Cloyster are found in rain, and this is where it performs at its best and we're meant to be finding counters for them under the worst possible situation's. Anyway I do happen to have a great Cloyster check.

Rotom-W @ Leftovers
Nature: Modest (+SpA -Atk)
Trait: Levitate
EV's: 112HP / 56Def/ 198SpA/ 144Spe
Volt Switch/ Hidden Power [ICE]/ Hydro Pump/ Pain Split

Icicle Spear: 54.64 - 64.31% Rock Blast: 72.86 - 85.87% Razor Shell: 48.69 - 57.62%
Can switch in on the smash, has enough bulk to not be OHKO'd by any of his moves at +2, and can Volt Switch into something that can priority finish him. The Razor Shell was calced in rain so that why it does that much. Actually does something besides beating Cloyster.

 
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