Counter This Pokemon [OLD VERSION]

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NixHex

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Yes, assume that Stealth Rock is not on your opponent's side. Prepare for the worst. You're free to mention that your Pokemon can KO the opponent with Stealth Rock, however if they can survive without rocks and KO you, it is obviously no longer a counter.

edit:
alphatron said:
In that case, countering volcorona just became laughably easy because it always has 1/2 of its health. I don't think it's fair to even the odds by having stealth rock up on both sides at all.
There you go.

The policy will not be discussed any further, commence with Thundurus-T please.
 

alphatron

Volt turn in every tier! I'm in despair!
I have a question about that policy then, if stealth rocks are always considered on your side, how about for the other side? Thundurus-T should be at 75% right now. I think it is unfair if rocks is only ever against your favor.
In that case, countering volcorona just became laughably easy because it always has 1/2 of its health. I don't think it's fair to even the odds by having stealth rock up on both sides at all.
 
Technically shedinja is the best counter. Aside from it, eviolite chansey is probably the best bet to beating thundurus T. it completely walls it and can spread poison around with Toxic.

On another note, mamoswine is a go big or go home counter; it resists thunder and Hp ice but will get OHKO'd by focus blast but can OHKO in return using ice shard. factor in focus blast with 70% accuracy, and most thoughtful people will go for the HP ice or thunder.
 
Don't have a counter this round but I think Quagsire is the best counter, but Gastro is more useful in the metagame.
 

alphatron

Volt turn in every tier! I'm in despair!

Quagsire (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SDef
Careful Nature (+SDef, -SAtk)
- Ice Punch
- Earthquake
- Curse
- Recover

Quagsire is perhaps the best Thunderus-T counter in the game. With the BW move tutors Quagsire got his long lost move Ice Punch back with Unaware. Quagsire can switch in on to Thunder and HP Ice with ease. While Focus Blast can do a large amount of damage with Focus Blast, that isn't until he is threatened out by Ice Punch or proceeds for Quagsire to fish for a miss. Thunderus-T has a 50-50 chance of hitting both Focus Blasts in a row and if Quagsire switches in on one, Thunderus has to make sure it gets a high damage roll because of lefties.

It isn't too specialized since Curse Quagsire makes an excellent check to boosting sweepers, like Volcarona, and is actually a very nice bulky sweeper with good coverage.
Ice Punch doesn't even hit thundurus for 1/2 its hp at max damage though. It does around 43%. Not saying that thundurus doesn't have to get lucky to beat him, but he isn't threatened out by one attack though and can still take his chances with high damage rolls and another focus blast.

I also want to say that the gastrodon mentioned earlier has to worry about focus blast defense drops if it's going to try to stall out thundurus with LO recoil and toxic damage while waiting for a miss.

Ninetales @ Charcoal
EVs: 248 hp/40 sp. Atk/216 spd
Ability: Drought
Nature: timid
-Overheat
-Power Swap
-Pain Split
-will-o-wisp

Yowza! I bet you weren't expecting to see this Pokemon of all things. And I don't blame you. Who uses Ninetales of all things to counter anything! While Ninetales is outright ohko'd thunder, the odds of thunder hitting Ninetales in the sunlight are pretty dang low with the accuracy drop. Back in generation 2, Tyranitar never had to worry about switching into typhlosion's dynamic punch because dynamic punch was an unreliable as hell move to use against him with such low accuracy. The same principle applies here. Just by switching in, thunder becomes a gamble for thundurus to attempt to use. If it misses, it's dead.

So what about focus blast? 58.2% - 68.5% is the amount it does to Ninetales. This is NEVER an ohko with stealth rock down and ninetales can pretty much ignore hp ice. Meanwhile, a sun boosted overheat deals 96.3% - 113.7%, meaning that he is always going to die after one round of life orb, and still has a high chance to die anyway regardless. This is similar to a moveset people used to use for ninetales a while back and I decided to try it again. Without the charcoal, you had junk like gliscor living through the attack whom I already outspeed (effectively outspending modest thundurus too) and I wasn't putting up with that. After an overheat, ninetales can cripple other special attackers or just use WoW to burn physical ones if thundurus runs away. Pain split helps Ninetales live a little longer off of the hp of its crippled foes.
 

WaterBomb

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Just throwing this out there, because the calcs look interesting:

Lanturn @ Leftovers
Volt Absorb
Calm Nature
252 HP/4 SpA/252 SpD
~Hydro Pump
~Toxic
~Rest
~Sleep Talk
-A variation on the standard RestTalk set, but more geared for special walling. Since Thund-T likes to be in the rain, Lanturn can piggyback on this to give Hydro Pump extra power. Against this spread, 252 SpA Modest LO Thund-T's Focus Blast does 38.1 - 44.93% to 252/252 Lanturn, only a 3HKO with Leftovers. This allows Lanturn to switch in on even T-'s most effective move without fear, Rest back to full, and then start Sleep Talking. If ST selects Hydro Pump, the damage is 62.2 - 73.57% in rain with only 4 EVs in SpA, which actually has about a 30% chance to OHKO T-T after three turns of Life Orb damage. Even if it doesn't OHKO, the next attack T-T lands will kill it. If ST selects Toxic, T-T is still in trouble as that will make it wear down that much quicker. Lanturn can still kill T-T on the following turn if ST selects Hydro Pump that time, but obviously that's only a 33.3% chance of occurring. The only way T-T is going to win this battle is if it predicts and uses FB on the switch in, Focus Blast hits 5 times in a row, AND Lanturn has really bad Sleep Talk luck. Statistically speaking, T-T will miss Focus Blast at least once out of 5 times, which is all Lanturn would need to either Rest again to keep stalling or KO T-T when he wakes up. Even outside of rain Lanturn still 2HKOs with Hydro Pump with any kind of Life Orb damage on T-T, so that won't change much.

Obviously Lanturn could still technically lose one on one, but the chances of that are slim and rely on a great deal of bad luck. I'd say this is a pretty reliable counter under typical circumstances, and it's not dead weight because it can counter rain teams and offer team support in general with Toxic.
 
Just throwing this out there, because the calcs look interesting:

Lanturn @ Leftovers
Volt Absorb
Calm Nature
252 HP/4 SpA/252 SpD
~Hydro Pump
~Toxic
~Rest
~Sleep Talk
-A variation on the standard RestTalk set, but more geared for special walling. Since Thund-T likes to be in the rain, Lanturn can piggyback on this to give Hydro Pump extra power. Against this spread, 252 SpA Modest LO Thund-T's Focus Blast does 38.1 - 44.93% to 252/252 Lanturn, only a 3HKO with Leftovers. This allows Lanturn to switch in on even T-'s most effective move without fear, Rest back to full, and then start Sleep Talking. If ST selects Hydro Pump, the damage is 62.2 - 73.57% in rain with only 4 EVs in SpA, which actually has about a 30% chance to OHKO T-T after three turns of Life Orb damage. Even if it doesn't OHKO, the next attack T-T lands will kill it. If ST selects Toxic, T-T is still in trouble as that will make it wear down that much quicker. Lanturn can still kill T-T on the following turn if ST selects Hydro Pump that time, but obviously that's only a 33.3% chance of occurring. The only way T-T is going to win this battle is if it predicts and uses FB on the switch in, Focus Blast hits 5 times in a row, AND Lanturn has really bad Sleep Talk luck. Statistically speaking, T-T will miss Focus Blast at least once out of 5 times, which is all Lanturn would need to either Rest again to keep stalling or KO T-T when he wakes up. Even outside of rain Lanturn still 2HKOs with Hydro Pump with any kind of Life Orb damage on T-T, so that won't change much.

Obviously Lanturn could still technically lose one on one, but the chances of that are slim and rely on a great deal of bad luck. I'd say this is a pretty reliable counter under typical circumstances, and it's not dead weight because it can counter rain teams and offer team support in general with Toxic.
this is pretty bad. 1/3 chance you'll do nothing, 1/3 chance you'll poison him [again and nothing] and 1/3 chance of doing damge. Therefore "really bad luck" is actually common; in in two turns the chances of hitting hydro pump twice is 1/9.
 

Electrolyte

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this is pretty bad. 1/3 chance you'll do nothing, 1/3 chance you'll poison him [again and nothing] and 1/3 chance of doing damge. Therefore "really bad luck" is actually common; in in two turns the chances of hitting hydro pump twice is 1/9.
Actually less than 1/9, putting in accuracy, which makes it about 71%. Lanturn is quite a shaky counter. Even SpDef Tank Lanturn is 3HKO'ed by Focus Blast from a 252 EV'ed Timid non-choiced Thundy. Lanturn can reply by Ice Beaming, dealing around 44-52% to Thunderus-T, a mere 13% chance to 2HKO. Since Thundy outspeeds you, even if you get in scotch free you only have a 13% chance to defeat Thundy in this skirmish. Very sketchy.
Besides, although I love Lanturn's typing and ability, who would use it in today's metagame? It's good set up bait for CM users because of its low speed and killing power.
 
Actually less than 1/9, putting in accuracy, which makes it about 71%. Lanturn is quite a shaky counter. Even SpDef Tank Lanturn is 3HKO'ed by Focus Blast from a 252 EV'ed Timid non-choiced Thundy. Lanturn can reply by Ice Beaming, dealing around 44-52% to Thunderus-T, a mere 13% chance to 2HKO. Since Thundy outspeeds you, even if you get in scotch free you only have a 13% chance to defeat Thundy in this skirmish. Very sketchy.
Besides, although I love Lanturn's typing and ability, who would use it in today's metagame? It's good set up bait for CM users because of its low speed and killing power.
Nah, toxic makes em switch with protect. The reason why it isnt used is its killing power and no instant recovery.
 

Quagsire (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SDef
Careful Nature (+SDef, -SAtk)
- Ice Punch
- Earthquake
- Curse
- Recover

Quagsire is perhaps the best Thunderus-T counter in the game. With the BW move tutors Quagsire got his long lost move Ice Punch back with Unaware. Quagsire can switch in on to Thunder and HP Ice with ease. While Focus Blast can do a large amount of damage with Focus Blast, that isn't until he is threatened out by Ice Punch or proceeds for Quagsire to fish for a miss. Thunderus-T has a 50-50 chance of hitting both Focus Blasts in a row and if Quagsire switches in on one, Thunderus has to make sure it gets a high damage roll because of lefties.

It isn't too specialized since Curse Quagsire makes an excellent check to boosting sweepers, like Volcarona, and is actually a very nice bulky sweeper with good coverage.
Actually, Modest Thundurus-T's Focus Blast deals 48% to 56% which is more than 50% counting SR damage, which "negates" the first Leftovers' healing, Thundurus needs a bit less of medium damage to kill Quagsire, counting 49% of hitting Focus Blast twice.

The best way to deal with Thundurus-T with this set is Recovering until Focus Blast PP's ends(8) and hitting it after that.
 

WaterBomb

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Actually less than 1/9, putting in accuracy, which makes it about 71%. Lanturn is quite a shaky counter. Even SpDef Tank Lanturn is 3HKO'ed by Focus Blast from a 252 EV'ed Timid non-choiced Thundy. Lanturn can reply by Ice Beaming, dealing around 44-52% to Thunderus-T, a mere 13% chance to 2HKO. Since Thundy outspeeds you, even if you get in scotch free you only have a 13% chance to defeat Thundy in this skirmish. Very sketchy.
Besides, although I love Lanturn's typing and ability, who would use it in today's metagame? It's good set up bait for CM users because of its low speed and killing power.
You're forgetting the Thundurus-T in question is carrying Life Orb, which guarantees a 2HKO since Thundurus will be down to 80% after two turns of Focus Blast. RestTalk allows you to actually take a Focus Blast on the switch, Rest after the second one, and then begin your Sleep Talking. You are correct about the chances of not doing much while sleeping, but those chances are far less than the chances of Focus Blast hitting five times in a row. If Thundurus misses just one Focus Blast, it's beaten. If Lanturn hits it with just one Hydro Pump while sleeping, it's beaten. The only way Thundurus can win this matchup is if it never misses with FB AND Lanturn does nothing while it sleeps. This is also assuming that the opponent predicted correctly with Thundurus in the first place and used Focus Blast on the switch. If Lanturn comes in on Thunder or HP Ice, it's already won.

Yeah it's not a 100% perfect counter, but I'd say it's at least a 90% counter.
 

Electrolyte

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You're forgetting the Thundurus-T in question is carrying Life Orb, which guarantees a 2HKO since Thundurus will be down to 80% after two turns of Focus Blast. RestTalk allows you to actually take a Focus Blast on the switch, Rest after the second one, and then begin your Sleep Talking. You are correct about the chances of not doing much while sleeping, but those chances are far less than the chances of Focus Blast hitting five times in a row. If Thundurus misses just one Focus Blast, it's beaten. If Lanturn hits it with just one Hydro Pump while sleeping, it's beaten. The only way Thundurus can win this matchup is if it never misses with FB AND Lanturn does nothing while it sleeps. This is also assuming that the opponent predicted correctly with Thundurus in the first place and used Focus Blast on the switch. If Lanturn comes in on Thunder or HP Ice, it's already won.

Yeah it's not a 100% perfect counter, but I'd say it's at least a 90% counter.
That makes sense. Personally, I would recommend using scald, because should Hydro Pump miss you'd be pretty screwed. Also, the 30% chance of burn is very nice. If you give Thundy a burn, it's pretty mich done for, because it doesn't have regenerator like Tornadus does.
 

WaterBomb

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It should also be noted that 252 HP/252 SpD Adamant Swampert still survives two FBs 99.61% of the time after Stealth Rock with Leftovers, and will always OHKO Thundurus with a Torrent-boosted Waterfall after two turns of LO recoil, even with only 4 EVs in Atk. It's a shaky counter because it will be left at low HP, but it will always beat Thundurus even if it switches into a Focus Blast.

Whiscash also becomes a solid counter under Rain, because Hydration allows it to abuse Rest to either stall out Focus Blast or just KO Thundurus.
 

Lee

@ Thick Club
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here's an offensive minded counter/check...



Virizion @ Life Orb
Jolly
4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
- Swords Dance
- Close Combat
- Leaf Blade
- Stone Edge

HP Ice doesn't do enough (63% on avg) and Virizion can retaliate with Stone Edge for 99% minimum damage. Will lose if Thunder paralyses it on the switch and will barely be alive after taking SR damage + HP Ice + Life Orb recoil but hey, how many sweepers can switch into Thunderus-T, defeat it and come out alive?
 
If you want the straight up best counter to Thundy-T (Also does a decent job vs Tornadus-T as well) well...

Lanturn is your man.

Yes I'm aware a resttalk set was posted, but it truely isn't necessary as even switching in, Protecting for leftovers recovery guarentees the win after 2 rounds of LO damage.


Lanturn @ Leftovers
Volt Absorb
Calm
252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 Def
- Scald
- Toxic
- Volt Switch
- Heal Bell/Protect


Only 3hkoed By modest LO Focus blast (4hko sometimes depending on leftovers recovery and damage rolls). Assuming this Thundy-T is being used in Rain (Due to thunder) Scald boosted by rain will do a heafty chunk back.

Protect over Heal Bell allows for lefties recovery to ensure it's not 3hkoed, and anything relying on focus miss is unlikely to hit all 4 of them.

Calcs:

Thundy-T Focus Blast to Lanturn: 38.1% - 44.9%
Lanturn Scald in Rain to Thundy-T: 41.5% - 49.2%



Oh and on a random note, the set for Thundy-T shouldn't be 4 HP as the puts you at 300 and you get 30 instead of 29 for Life orb recoil, just saying lol.

I'm pretty sure this is the set Spade was using in his latest matches.
 


Gardevoir @ Leftovers
252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Sp. Def
Nature: Calm +Sp. Def - Att
Trace

- WoW
- Psychic
- Taunt
- Pain Split

ok, I have modified its stats a bit for to ensure it counters completly Thundurus-T without relying on Thundurus-T doesn't do max damage.
A counter for Stall and Balanced teams.
WoW is for the omnipresent Tyranitar and Scizor, for avoiding both switching from free and, in general, burning things in the switch.

Taunt cripples walls and avoids setups from slow mons and setting up hazards. For example, annoys Chansey/Blissey and CM Reuniclus.

Pain Split, albeit unreliable, as a method of healing.

The calcs:

LO HP Ice vs 252/4+ Gardevoir = 28.24% - 33.24% 4KO with SR on the field and Leftovers' recovery.

Psychic: 50%-59%

Also this Gardevoir handles pretty well against NP versions, considering Timid Nature, in addition to Choice versions. There isn't a counter for only 1 set and suffers from the others.

HP Ice from NP versions with Life Orb: 25%-30%

Due the fact of its ability, like Porygon2, can take other mons' abilities in its benefit.

Really the latter two moveslots are filler, depending on the team, Gardevoir's supporting movepool is huge, Protect for scouting, specially CB Scizor. Wish, but not much advisable without Protect, Thunder Wave, Reflect, Light Screen, Heal Bell...
 

WaterBomb

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EDIT: nevermind, Lee pointed out the mistake in the calcs so that Gardevoir set actually does work now.
 

Lee

@ Thick Club
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HP Ice: 42%-49% 3 KO counting SR and Leftovers' recovery.
thought that didn't look right so ran it myself - you've calculated HP Ice's damage as though Thunderus had STAB on it. The actual calculation is:

LO HP Ice vs 252/4+ Gardevoir = 28.24% - 33.24%

4-5HKO after Leftovers
 

NixHex

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Thundurus-T garnered a lot of discussion and there have been some creative choices! But the show must go on, as they say. Our next Pokemon has been around for 16 years and has fought through metagame shifts and remained OU since its very inception. Its lasting power comes from it's high Speed (even by today's standards) and ability to get amazing coverage with three moves. Our next Pokemon is none other than Starmie!

Weather: Rain
Starmie @ Choice Scarf

Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Nature: Timid
- Hydro Pump
- Thunder
- Ice Beam
- Trick

This is a less commonly seen set due to Starmie's ability to run a Life Orb set with its already amazing Speed, but it is far from inefficient. With a Choice Scarf, Starmie becomes faster than nearly every unboosted Pokemon in the game. Its coverage makes it very difficult to switch into and thus, like most Choice Pokemon, turns into a dangerous game of scouting. I expect to see many check-at-bests, but I'd love to be proven wrong! Good luck!
 


Gastrodon@ leftovers
Calm nature
Ability: Storm Drain
252 HP / 252 SpDef / 4 SpAtt
~Scald
~Toxic
~Ice Beam/Earth Power
~Recover

Resists Ice Beam and is immune to it's other 2 attacks. Trick is annoying but as long as you're locked on an attacking move you will take down the frail Starmie before it takes you down.
 

Electrolyte

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Tyranitar @ Leftovers
252 HP, 4 Atk, 252 Sp Def
Adamant nature
~Stealth Rock
~Crunch
~Pursuit
~Superpower
Tyranitar's Sand Stream gives it a very nice Sp. Def boost so it can tank all of Starmie's hits nicely. Tyranitar can OHKO Starmie with Crunch if it stays in, or OHKO Starmie with Pursuit if it tries to switch out. The best Starmie can do in return is to Hydro Pump, which only does enough to 3HKO. Just make sure Sandstorm is up.

Calcs-
Tyranitar's Crunch= 97-116% (~80% to OHKO)
Tyranitar's Pursuit (to a switching Starmie)= 98-117% (~90% to OHKO)

Starmie's Hydro Pump= 39-47% (in sandstorm)
Starmie's Thunder= 10-12% (in sandstorm)
Starmie's Ice Beam= 10-12% (in sandstorm)
 
This is crippled by Trick, since the other members of the team can take advantage of Ferrothorn being locked into one move even if it does take down Starmie, so it's only a check and not a counter.


Ferrothorn @ Leftovers
IVs: 0 Spe, EVs: 252 HP, 88 Def, 168 SpD
Nature: Relaxed (+Def, -Spe)
~ Spikes / Stealth Rock
~ Leech Seed
~ Gyro Ball
~ Power Whip

Starmie can at best 4HKO in its favoured weather, whereas Ferrothorn has a near-guaranteed OHKO with Power Whip (the limiting factor isn't the possibility of a 2HKO, it's the shaky accuracy of Power Whip). If it runs, Ferrothorn has a free turn to lay its entry hazard.

Hydro Pump: 26.42 - 31.25% (in rain)
Thunder: 11.93 - 13.92%
Ice Beam: 18.75 - 22.15%
 
Somewhat uncommon, yet still viable. (I just finished and decided to check to see if someone posted Ferrothorn. I see someone did, but since it is a different set I think it is fine if both are posted.)



Ferrothorn@Choice Band
Trait: Iron Barbs
EV's: 252 HP/252 Attack/4 SpD (0 Speed IV's)
Brave Nature
- Power Whip
- Gyro Ball
- Bulldoze
- Payback

This set takes advantage of Ferrothorn's usable 94 Base Attack and boosting it with a choice band. Starmie will have no other choice but to run away or use Trick. It will be mad at that since it cannot do squat with a Choice Band. The only thing about having that Choice Scarf on Ferrothorn is that his Gyro Ball may lose some power, but with 0 speed IV's and a speed-lowering nature, i doubt it would have a major effect. Here are the calcs!

252+ Attack Ferrothorn Power Whip vs Starmie 4 HP/0 Def: 590 - 696 of 262 HP 225% - 265%
252+ Attack Ferrothorn Gyro Ball vs Starmie 4 HP/0 Def: 184 - 217 of 262 HP 70% - 82% (123 - 145 of 262 HP 46% - 55% after Trick)
252+ Attack Ferrothorn Payback vs Starmie 4 HP/0 Def: 328 - 388 of 262 HP 125% - 148% (220 - 260 of 262 HP 83% - 99% after Trick)
252+ Attack Ferrothorn Bulldoze vs Starmie 4 HP/0 Def: 99 - 117 of 262 HP 37% - 44%

Ferrothorn can dispose of Starmie quite easily. I'm sure even a defensive set would own Starmie. Here are the calcs for how well Ferrothorn will take the hits:

252 Sp Attack Starmie Thunder vs 252 HP/4 SpD Ferrothorn: 48 - 57 of 352 HP 13% - 16%
252 Sp Attack Starmie Hydro Pump vs 252 HP/4 SpD Ferrothorn: 72 - 85 of 352 HP 20% - 24%
252 Sp Attack Starmie Ice Beam vs 252 HP/4 SpD Ferrothorn: 76 - 90 of 352 HP 21% - 25%

As you all can see, Starmie stands no chance against Ferrothorn. A wise man once said: GAME...........BLOUSES
 


Amoonguss (M) @ Black Sludge
Trait: Regenerator
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SAtk / 252 SDef
Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
- Giga Drain
- Clear Smog
- Spore
- Hidden Power [Ice]

Amoongus gigadrain: (62.83 - 74.32%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Starmie ice beam: (33.87 - 39.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

The idea is you take a hit on switching in, another, gigadrain, and gain enough health to take another and finish of the 2HKO. It doesn't work 100% of the time, but almost 99% of the time unless you get really really unlucky. This is the HP for Amoonguss with the highest damage rolls for starmie and low for Amoonguss.

378 After rocks
206 Take an ice beam
232 Leftovers recovery
60 Take an ice beam
142 Regain health with gigadrain
168 Leftovers recovery

The highest damage for starmie is 172 damage, I did that for all 3 a 1/16 chance for each one and the lowest possible giga drain health back. Literally happening 1% of 1% of the time. Basically, it beats it.

I'm not including spore, because you can't win if your locked into spore :X.
 
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