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Counter This Pokemon [OLD VERSION]
- Thread starter Nix_Hex
- Start date
- Status
Sorry, Bro. being a fellow wobbuffet user i was dissapointed to find that its sometimes 2HKO'd by starmie with stealth rock factored. you probably didnt factor the STAB and rain boost for starmie's hydro pump. However, without stealth rock its never 2HKO'd so its kind of a check. was goin to post but the calcs were dissapointing.I like Electrolyte's T-Tar set, since it summons auto Sand and that'll finish Starmie off at the end of the turn.
Wobbuffet (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Shadow Tag
Nature: Jolly
EVs: 200 Def, 56 SpD, 252 Spe
Counter
Mirror Coat
Encore
Tickle / Destiny Bond
I personally run Tickle, but that's not relevant to this situation. Hydro Pump is only a 3HKO, so you can switch-in and Mirror Coat. Should you get tricked, you can Mirror Coat anyway, since Tricking hardly harms Wobbuffet in this 1-on-1 situation. And although having a Choice-locked Wobb is kind of bad, it CAN work out to your advantage, since the Choice Scarf lets you Encore a wider variety of Pokemon before they can move again, like neutral-nature Gliscor (Defensive sets) and Breloom. You will loose if you switch into a Trick and Encore while they Hydro Pump you, but your first move should be Mirror Coat anyway.
Okay, since NixHex is busy I will assign the next Pokemon to counter - Gravity Landorus in da Sandstorm
Landorus-I @ Life Orb
Trait: Sand Force
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature (+Spe, -SpD)
~ Gravity
~ Earthquake
~ Stone Edge
~ Hidden Power [Ice]
Landorus just got even better in BW2, thanks to the move tutor Gravity. For 5 turns Gravity negates EQ immunity of Flying-types, Levitate Pokemon, and Pokemon with Air Balloon putting Skarmory and Rotom-W in a dangerous spot. During the duration of Gravity, Stone Edge won't disappoint you with misses, as Gravity increases accuracy of all moves by 1.67x! Try to fend your team from this beast's Sand Force-enhanced assaults!
Remember only mention good Counters guys. No Shedinja nonsense :o
Landorus-I @ Life Orb
Trait: Sand Force
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature (+Spe, -SpD)
~ Gravity
~ Earthquake
~ Stone Edge
~ Hidden Power [Ice]
Landorus just got even better in BW2, thanks to the move tutor Gravity. For 5 turns Gravity negates EQ immunity of Flying-types, Levitate Pokemon, and Pokemon with Air Balloon putting Skarmory and Rotom-W in a dangerous spot. During the duration of Gravity, Stone Edge won't disappoint you with misses, as Gravity increases accuracy of all moves by 1.67x! Try to fend your team from this beast's Sand Force-enhanced assaults!
Remember only mention good Counters guys. No Shedinja nonsense :o
Celebi to the rescue!
Celebi @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 240 Def / 16 Spe
Nature: Bold
~ Giga Drain
~ Hidden Power Fire/Ice
~ Thunder Wave
~ Recover
Very, very bulky. The most powerful move Landorus has against it is HP Ice, which gives the following calc:
Hidden Power Ice: 148-177 (36.63 - 43.81%) -- 0.39% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock in Sandstorm
From there, Celebi can get on the stall train with Recover, gradually getting back enough health to comfortably attack. Giga Drain will restore some health, doing 34.16 - 40.43%, meaning you won't have to recover as often as you would otherwise. If you use HP Ice, you do 85.21 - 100%, so Landorus won't be sticking around for long then. But the choice between HP Fire and HP Ice depends on what you want to counter; Fire hits Ferrothorn nicely while also smacking around any Scizor that hope to come in safely. HP Ice destroys Gliscor while getting a strong hit on Dragonite. I chose Thunder Wave for the paralysis, as your opponent's team is unlikely to have many other Pokemon besides Landorus that don't mind paralysis. That said, Celebi can't do much against dedicated walls that aren't weak to Grass or Fire/Ice, so you'll want to have plenty of team support for Blissey/Chansey, Tyranitar, Jirachi, enemy Celebi, Reuniclus, and the like (Tyranitar and Jirachi are weak to types that Celebi runs, but Celebi's not really strong enough to threaten them).
Celebi @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 240 Def / 16 Spe
Nature: Bold
~ Giga Drain
~ Hidden Power Fire/Ice
~ Thunder Wave
~ Recover
Very, very bulky. The most powerful move Landorus has against it is HP Ice, which gives the following calc:
Hidden Power Ice: 148-177 (36.63 - 43.81%) -- 0.39% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock in Sandstorm
From there, Celebi can get on the stall train with Recover, gradually getting back enough health to comfortably attack. Giga Drain will restore some health, doing 34.16 - 40.43%, meaning you won't have to recover as often as you would otherwise. If you use HP Ice, you do 85.21 - 100%, so Landorus won't be sticking around for long then. But the choice between HP Fire and HP Ice depends on what you want to counter; Fire hits Ferrothorn nicely while also smacking around any Scizor that hope to come in safely. HP Ice destroys Gliscor while getting a strong hit on Dragonite. I chose Thunder Wave for the paralysis, as your opponent's team is unlikely to have many other Pokemon besides Landorus that don't mind paralysis. That said, Celebi can't do much against dedicated walls that aren't weak to Grass or Fire/Ice, so you'll want to have plenty of team support for Blissey/Chansey, Tyranitar, Jirachi, enemy Celebi, Reuniclus, and the like (Tyranitar and Jirachi are weak to types that Celebi runs, but Celebi's not really strong enough to threaten them).
Sayonara
don't forget
Cresselia @ Leftovers | Levitate
Bold | 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
~ Moonlight
~ Psychic
~ Ice Beam
~ Thunder Wave
(Weather = sandstorm)
Landorus' Earthquake vs. 252 / 252+ Cresselia = 38.51% - 45.49% (GRAVITY)
Landorus' Stone Edge vs. 252 / 252+ Cresselia = 25.67% - 30.4%
Landorus' U-Turn vs. 252 / 252+ Cresselia = 27.92% - 33.33%
Landorus' Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 / 252+ Cresselia = 13.28% - 15.76%
Cresselia's Ice Beam vs. 0 / 4 Landorus = 91.53% - 107.83%
Landorus' Earthquake vs. 252 / 252+ Cresselia = 38.51% - 45.49% (GRAVITY)
Landorus' Stone Edge vs. 252 / 252+ Cresselia = 25.67% - 30.4%
Landorus' U-Turn vs. 252 / 252+ Cresselia = 27.92% - 33.33%
Landorus' Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 / 252+ Cresselia = 13.28% - 15.76%
Cresselia's Ice Beam vs. 0 / 4 Landorus = 91.53% - 107.83%
Cresselia can tank any hit, and can utilize Ice Beam to annihilate Landorus. Moonlight keeps Cresselia in good shape, while Psychic is its main STAB. Thunder Wave cripples faster opponents, allowing Cresselia to stall them out with additional ease.
I'm not sure if Cresselia is really a counter. Possibly a check, I think that's fair. However, after Stealth Rocks, there is a decent possibility that she will be 2HKO'd on the switch-in.
Cresselia @ Leftovers | Levitate
Bold | 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
~ Moonlight
~ Psychic
~ Ice Beam
~ Thunder Wave
(Weather = sandstorm)
Landorus' Earthquake vs. 252 / 252+ Cresselia = 38.51% - 45.49% (GRAVITY)
Landorus' Stone Edge vs. 252 / 252+ Cresselia = 25.67% - 30.4%
Landorus' U-Turn vs. 252 / 252+ Cresselia = 27.92% - 33.33%
Landorus' Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 / 252+ Cresselia = 13.28% - 15.76%
Cresselia's Ice Beam vs. 0 / 4 Landorus = 91.53% - 107.83%
Cresselia can tank any hit, and can utilize Ice Beam to annihilate Landorus. Moonlight keeps Cresselia in good shape, while Psychic is its main STAB. Thunder Wave cripples faster opponents, allowing Cresselia to stall them out with additional ease.
Virizion @ Leftovers
Ability: Justified
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Nature: Timid
~ Calm Mind
~ Giga Drain
~ Focus Blast
~ Hidden Power Ice
It's best shot is 2HKO with resisted earthquakes due Virizions higher SpD, making HP ice a worse choice.
Earthquake: 173-204 (53.39 - 62.96%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and weather
Meaning it comes on the resisted attack, takes the hit and strikes first since faster with HP Ice to OHKO it.
Hidden Power Ice: 320-380 (100.31 - 119.12%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Suicune @ Choice Scarf | Pressure
Timid | 4 HP/ 252 SpA / 252 Spe
~ Surf
~ Hidden Power Electric
~ Ice Beam
~ Sleep Talk
Landorus-I Sand Force boosted Earthquake vs Suicune
349 Atk vs 266 Def & 342 HP (130 Base Power): 238 - 282 (69.59% - 82.46%)
Suicune is able to switch into any of Landorus' attacks and outspeed for a swift kill with Ice Beam. Admitedly though, Choice Scarf Suicune is a bit gimmicky but with its great bulk and water/electric/ice coverage it wouldn't exactly be THAT bad as a general revenge killer.
Alakazam @ Focus Sash
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Nature: Timid
- Psychic / Psyshock
- Focus Blast
- Shadow Ball
- Hidden Power [Ice]
It avoids the KO on the switch, even with Stealth Rock / Spikes / Toxic Spikes / Sandstorm, since Magic Guard prevents all those things from dealing damage and Focus Sash ensures that it doesn't faint from one single hit. Alakazam will then outspeed and swiftly OHKO with HP Ice.
tehy
Banned deucer.
But it's only 2hitko'd by EQ, which can only hit if gravity is up. As long as you switch cress in immediately, landorus will only be able to use one and will risk being ohko'd if it does, since after one round of LO recoil it will always die to ice beam.
With moonlight, if landorus hits it on the switch-in with stone edge, it will lose about 17% hp max, but landorus needs perfect prediction in addition to Sr, no SR itself, AND a good switchin to cress, and even SS up.
Here's an unconventional idea:
Meganium @ Leftovers
Bold Nature
252 HP/176 Def/80 SpD
-Protect/Synthesis
-Leech Seed
-Giga Drain
-Toxic
With this spread, Meganium can switch into any one of Landorus' attacks and take a maximum of 44.5% damage (both SE and HP Ice do roughly the same). Meganium can then use Protect to gain a little additional recovery, and then use Leech Seed. Once Leech Seed is on, Meganium can begin alternating Protect and Giga Drain to maximize recovery and swiftly bring an end to Landorus through damage from Life Orb, Leech Seed and Giga Drain. Toxic is there to provide extra team support so Meganium isn't dead weight after Landorus is down. Protect can also be swapped for Synthesis if you're worried about Landorus getting max damage rolls all the time.
Also, CB Mamoswine with a spread of 200 HP/252 Att/56 Def with an Adamant nature will never be OHKOed and can OHKO back with Ice Shard. This is more a check than a counter though since it'll be at low health and unable to switch in again.
Meganium @ Leftovers
Bold Nature
252 HP/176 Def/80 SpD
-Protect/Synthesis
-Leech Seed
-Giga Drain
-Toxic
With this spread, Meganium can switch into any one of Landorus' attacks and take a maximum of 44.5% damage (both SE and HP Ice do roughly the same). Meganium can then use Protect to gain a little additional recovery, and then use Leech Seed. Once Leech Seed is on, Meganium can begin alternating Protect and Giga Drain to maximize recovery and swiftly bring an end to Landorus through damage from Life Orb, Leech Seed and Giga Drain. Toxic is there to provide extra team support so Meganium isn't dead weight after Landorus is down. Protect can also be swapped for Synthesis if you're worried about Landorus getting max damage rolls all the time.
Also, CB Mamoswine with a spread of 200 HP/252 Att/56 Def with an Adamant nature will never be OHKOed and can OHKO back with Ice Shard. This is more a check than a counter though since it'll be at low health and unable to switch in again.
Porygon 2 @ Eviolite
252 HP, 176 Def, 80 Sp Def
Trace
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
~Ice Beam
~Discharge
~Toxic
~Recover
Porygon 2 is only 3HKO'd by EQ after sandstorm damage. Ice beam is a guaranteed OHKO. Trace helps it overcome Sandstorm damage.
Here's an unconventional idea:
Abomasnowhttp://www.smogon.com/bw/pokemon/abomasnow @ Leftovers
Bold Nature
252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
-Protect
-Leech Seed
-Giga Drain
-Ice Shard
Can't switch against Stone Edge, but with anticipation, maybe
Abomasnowhttp://www.smogon.com/bw/pokemon/abomasnow @ Leftovers
Bold Nature
252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
-Protect
-Leech Seed
-Giga Drain
-Ice Shard
Can't switch against Stone Edge, but with anticipation, maybe
OK Soooo Yeah... I'm going with Rotom again. This time, just for the sake of variety, I'll go with Rotom-C
Rotom-C @ Choice Scarf
Nature: Timid
252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
- Volt Switch
- Leaf Storm
- Hidden Power Ice
- Trick
Alright, so Rotom-C isn't going to like taking a shot from Stone Edge or Hidden Power Ice very much. Still, it's going to live barring a crit and Landorus is NOT living the HP Ice in return. Rotom-C has already been well established in OU, so I shouldn't have to spend much time explaining it's viability. Now a viable concern with this is that Landorus could always switch out after nailing Rotom-C on the switch, leaving Rotom-C at too low health to survive another switch in. And then there's the fact that using Volt-Switch to predict the switch is a risky move due to Landorus' electric immunity, so predicting such a switch out is risky in and of itself.
So yes, a check at best. But against this particular Landorus, you're not going to get much better. And if it switches into either Gravity or Earthquake, then it gets in scott free too. Just hope that you don't get critted.
Also, Rotom-W works pretty much the same way, I only used Rotom-C so as to not repeat myself.
Rotom-C @ Choice Scarf
Nature: Timid
252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
- Volt Switch
- Leaf Storm
- Hidden Power Ice
- Trick
Alright, so Rotom-C isn't going to like taking a shot from Stone Edge or Hidden Power Ice very much. Still, it's going to live barring a crit and Landorus is NOT living the HP Ice in return. Rotom-C has already been well established in OU, so I shouldn't have to spend much time explaining it's viability. Now a viable concern with this is that Landorus could always switch out after nailing Rotom-C on the switch, leaving Rotom-C at too low health to survive another switch in. And then there's the fact that using Volt-Switch to predict the switch is a risky move due to Landorus' electric immunity, so predicting such a switch out is risky in and of itself.
So yes, a check at best. But against this particular Landorus, you're not going to get much better. And if it switches into either Gravity or Earthquake, then it gets in scott free too. Just hope that you don't get critted.
Also, Rotom-W works pretty much the same way, I only used Rotom-C so as to not repeat myself.
Not a counter. If it switches into an EQ, it can't survive a Stone Edge. It can't OHKO with Ice Shard, so Abomasnow is not a counter.
LO EQ in Hail: 28-33% to Abomasnow
LO SE in Hail: 74-88% to Abomasnow
Ice Shard in Hail: 50-60% to Landorus
I'm pretty sure he was just trolling me because I suggested Meganium, but thanks for the proof anyway :)
Lol attempting to Leech-stall (in the sand) Landorus-I is a shit strategy, especially when Meganium is pretty much 2HKOed with Rocks after very little residual damage. Not to mention Meganium in OU is dumb.
Porygon2 is also a check at best, since SR and sand damage easily puts Porygon2 in 2HKO range ~66% of the time (Sand Force EQ does 39-46%).
Celebi and Cresselia are solid counters - nice work, VaporeonIce and Expert Physics!
EDIT: Omicron, even Max / Max+ Cloyster goes down with 2 Stone Edges - EPIC FAILLLLLL
Porygon2 is also a check at best, since SR and sand damage easily puts Porygon2 in 2HKO range ~66% of the time (Sand Force EQ does 39-46%).
Celebi and Cresselia are solid counters - nice work, VaporeonIce and Expert Physics!
EDIT: Omicron, even Max / Max+ Cloyster goes down with 2 Stone Edges - EPIC FAILLLLLL
Cloyster @ Leftovers
Impish Nature
248 HP / 84 Atk / 176 Def
- Icicle Spear
- Rapid Spin
- Spikes
- Ice Shard
Defensive Cloyster isn't even 2HKOed thanks to its massive Defense stat, and even Stone Edge won't KO, while Cloyster can retaliate with STAB Icicle Spear / Ice Shard. Earthquake + Stone Edge in sandstorm does 91% maximum, meaning that Cloyster can switch in with impunity, provided Stealth Rock isn't in play. Stone Edge only had a 22% chance to 2HKO as well.
Fuck sr :)
Edit: also bs honko's calc lied to me son of a bitch
Edit 2: Pocket is noob, I own dgaf
This is a check at best, since both Earthquake and Stone Edge are 2HKOs with Stealth Rock on the field, while Cloyster has a 0% chance to OHKO with Ice Shard (even factoring in 2 rounds of LO recoil, or 1 round of recoil and Stealth Rock). Of course, if you manage to switch in on Gravity or HP Ice Landorus is in a bad position, but that's not enough for the definition in the OP to be considered a counter...
Cloyster @ Leftovers
Impish Nature
248 HP / 84 Atk / 176 Def
- Icicle Spear
- Rapid Spin
- Spikes
- Ice Shard
Defensive Cloyster isn't even 2HKOed thanks to its massive Defense stat, and even Stone Edge won't KO, while Cloyster can retaliate with STAB Icicle Spear / Ice Shard. Earthquake + Stone Edge in sandstorm does 91% maximum, meaning that Cloyster can switch in with impunity, provided Stealth Rock isn't in play. Stone Edge only had a 22% chance to 2HKO as well.
Edit: lol, ninjaed
By anticipation he meant prediction. Abomasnow's hidden ability is Soundproof.
Nice to see that you're back.
And lol, yeah, I just noticed that Abomasnow didn't have Anticipation. Still, I retain my damage calculations.
@Omicron: Yeah... we always assume SR is up on our side and not the opponent's :(
How dare you speak of the mighty Meganium that way??? The only reason it's not in OU is because people are too afraid of its awesome power to use it!
And for the record, it is not "basically 2HKOed" with rocks and residual damage, because the chances of a 2HKO with rocks and sandstorm damage (and leftovers) is only 3.13%. Meganium is still an effective counter to Landorus even in sand. And yeah I know it's not used much, but it's solid enough to not be total dead weight. It's not like I suggested Delibird :D
And for the record, it is not "basically 2HKOed" with rocks and residual damage, because the chances of a 2HKO with rocks and sandstorm damage (and leftovers) is only 3.13%. Meganium is still an effective counter to Landorus even in sand. And yeah I know it's not used much, but it's solid enough to not be total dead weight. It's not like I suggested Delibird :D
Well if we assume the Porygon2 in question has Trace (which wasn't stated by the poster, but who runs P2 with Download in OU anyway?), then Porygon2 wouldn't take Sandstorm damage at all... Not that I'm saying it's a better counter as it is, but the calcs would be
Sand Force boosted EQ from 252 Att neutral Landorus-I v. 252/176+ Porygon2 (@Eviolite) = 150-177 (40.26-47.36%),
which can be a 2HKO after SR roughly 40% of the time.
Now I don't feel better about the little guy, but I guess that EV spread could be modified a little (I don't get why he didn't use the standard one, since at most it makes it more susceptible to HP Ice, but even then...). Obviously, the standard set for P2 in OU has 432 Def as opposed to the 429 that the posted spread reaches, which isn't enough to warrant not being 2HKO'd.
Either way, I'm not denying that Porygon2 is a check at best, since it can't really switch into Landorus-I's more spammed attack in a Gravity set, I'm just saying that it may work. Trace is a nice ability, so I guess I just have a weakness for a gimmick Pokémon that has a quite unique role in OU :D
If Meganium doesn't milk your guernsey, perhaps a more viable option would be Shaymin?
Shaymin @ Leftovers
Natural Cure
Calm Nature (+SpD)
252 HP/252 Def/4 SpA
-Seed Flare
-Earth Power
-Hidden Power Ice
-Rest/Synthesis
Shaymin is only 3HKOed by Stone Edge (34.9 - 41.33%) after rocks and sand, whereas it will always OHKO Landorus with HP Ice after two turns of Life Orb damage. This is a variation on the smogon set, obviously more defensive with HP Ice over Fire for more utility in OU.
Shaymin @ Leftovers
Natural Cure
Calm Nature (+SpD)
252 HP/252 Def/4 SpA
-Seed Flare
-Earth Power
-Hidden Power Ice
-Rest/Synthesis
Shaymin is only 3HKOed by Stone Edge (34.9 - 41.33%) after rocks and sand, whereas it will always OHKO Landorus with HP Ice after two turns of Life Orb damage. This is a variation on the smogon set, obviously more defensive with HP Ice over Fire for more utility in OU.
Pokemon who resist the EdgeQuake are few (all the ground/steel types with Levitate + Virizion) and most of them will be killed by HP Ice ... Except Virizion who has a lot of Sp Def and resists EdgeQuake on the physical side
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