Resource Crown Tundra Analyses

[Theorymon]

Crown Tundra Battle Stadium Singles Analyses​

Viability Ranking Council (what we're using to push stuff through)

1_TrickPhony
cant say
DragonWhale
greilmercenary9
marilli
Psynergy
Theorymon

Finally, the last DLC is out! Well.. hopefully! However, after the Series 6 fiasco totally derailing any semblance of a normal, stable analysis process, we're doing things quite differently now.

The VR Council will be working on the initial analyses for the Crown Tundra. These analyses are quite short and to the point. What they lack in fanciness, they gain in being easy to update! Since the VR team is doing the initial batch of analyses internally, it may not seem like there's much use for C&C anymore... and that's where you'd be wrong!

We'll have a list of currently "completed" analyses. However, we're in the early days of the metagame here, things are still developing, there could be mistakes both grammar and content-wise...

The goal is simple: we want YOU to give us feedback!

Check out the completed analyses. Are they missing a really good EV spread? Post them here!

Think a Pokemon needs more sets? Post that here!

Are we missing an important detail, or was one of us a doofus and used there when we should have said their? Post that here!

While the ability to expand the credits is not a sure thing onsite, if we accept one of your suggestions, not only will we implement it directly onsite, we'll record your contribution in this thread! Who knows, if you prove yourself in this thread that you have a good amount of knowledge in this metagame, there may be even brigther things awaiting you...

Just a few things to note here!

- Don't bother writing out a whole set as if its an analysis. The VR team will take care of the writing part, just post a set if you think we're missing something important.

- Same deal with EV spreads, we can handle the writing part!

- If you're gonna suggest something we're lacking, please actually try to sell us on why it should be on the dex. Don't say "Nihilego needs 172 SpA". Instead, say "Nihilego needs 172 SpA so it can get a Speed boost with Beast Boost".

- If a Pokemon isn't on the completed analyses list below, hold your horses on suggesting stuff! Yes, not every viable Pokemon will be covered on day one, things take time. We'll get to them, and when we do, we'll make a new post here updating the newly analyzed Pokemon!

Crown Tundra Analyses

Azumarill

Blaziken

Celesteela

Cinderace

Corviknght

Cresselia

Darmanitan-Galar

Dracovish

Dragapult

Dragonite

Excadrill

Ferrothorn

Garchomp

Glastrier

Grimmsnarl

Gyarados

Heatran

Hippowdon

Kartana

Lapras

Landorus-T

Magnezone

Mamoswine

Mimikyu

Metagross

Moltres-Galar

Naganadel

Nihilego

Pheromosa

Porygon2

Porygon-Z

Primarina

Raikou

Regieleki

Rillaboom

Rotom-W

Salamence

Suicune

Swampert

Tapu Koko

Tapu Fini

Tapu Lele

Thundurus

Toxapex

Tyranitar

Urshifu-R

Urshifu-S

Whimsicott

Zapdos

Zapdos-Galar

 

[Theorymon]

Contributions Log​

Here, we'll record any contributions that are done besides just writing the analyses (since you can find out who wrote them by just reading them!).

Contribution Leaderboard

Ika Ika Musume - 11

DTrain5742 - 10

GageOak - 2

HazedFlare - 1

j0gurt - 1

Thick Fat Azumarill - 1

Feesh Squad - 1

marilli - 1

hg32 - 1

Pokemon Sets

Ika Ika Musume

contributions

* Suggested Thunderous Kick be mentioned more on Galarian Zapdos
* Suggested Pressure be slashed on Zapdos
* Suggested Torrent be slashed on Swampert
* Suggested other items be slashed on Mimikyu
* Suggested Ice Fang be slashed in on Dracovish
* Pointed out some set errors with Excadrill

Alternate EV Spreads

DTrain5742

contributions

* Fixed a faulty EV spread with Celesteela
* Fixed an EV issue with Regieleki

hg32

marilli



Other Changes

Feesh Squad

contributions

* Suggested a clarification on offensive Regieleki's EV spread.

j0gurt

contributions

* Suggested a clarification on a sentence regarding terrains and Swampert's Yawn.

HazedFlare

contributions

* Pointed out that Porygon2 had the wrong viability ranking

DTrain5742

contributions

* Suggested Swampert's 0 Speed IV be explained
* Suggested Max Flare be clarified on Tyranitar

Ika Ika Musume

contributions

* Suggested mentioning Scarf Naganadel instead of Pheromosa in Dragapult's first set.
* Suggested mentioning Tapu Koko and Garchomp for Gyarados's coverge moves.

Grammar

DTrain5742

grammar contributions

* Pointed out a spelling error on Regieleki that mentioned the same Pokemon instead of Glastrier
* Pointed out a typo in Magnezone's EV spread
* Pointed out a sentence error on Grimmsnarl
* Pointed out a typo in Dragapult, Naganadel was misspelled.
* Pointed out 2 typos on Blaziken

Ika Ika Musume

contributions

* Pointed out a typo on Naganadel
* Pointed out typos on Hippowdon
* Pointed out typos on Toxapex

Thick Fat Azumarill

contributions

* Pointed out a typo on Trick Room Mimikyu

GageOak

contributions

* Pointed out a typo on Swampert
* Pointed out a typo on Heatran

 

[Theorymon]

Small update: Tapu Fini is now on the dex, check it out in case any of you got anything to add or fix about it!

A lot more mons are coming later, stay tuned!

 

[Theorymon]

Now it's time for a far bigger drop of analyses, here are 7 more Pokemon! Expect plenty more tomorrow too!

Cinderace

Metagross

Pheromosa

Porygon2

Raikou

Rillaboom

Salamence

 

[Theorymon]

Time for another meaty update! There are 5 totally new analyses to reveal, and 5 Pokemon who had their old analyses spurced up to be more current. As of this post, this means there are 28 Battle Stadium Singles analyses on the Smogon dex, for you all to look at and give feedback to!

New Analyses

Garchomp

Heatran

Swampert

Thundurus

Zapdos-Galar

Updated Analyses

Ferrothorn

Lapras

Mimikyu

Urshifu-R

Urshifu-S

 

[Ika Ika Musume]

Had another brief skim today. The below is just my personal opinion as it is so early in based on just games and theorycrafting so don't take it as fact.

Celesteela:

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Change this section to this (grammar):

Celesteela, with its fantastic mixed bulk and typing, is the best "sub-seed" abuser in the game and many common metagame Pokemon have difficulty breaking Celesteela's Substitute without using Dynamax.

Small optimisation to special sweeper EV. 20 Spdef is good for making Porygon2 download give an attack boost. Not huge though so might not be worth mentioning.

EVs: 4 HP / 236 SpA / 20 SpD / 244 Spe
Modest Nature

Rotom-Heat or Rotom in general should probably be mentioned when talking about meteor beam celesteela. I have no doubt given lando/fini/steela being everywhere even if rotom has been put behind due to new toys, it will be back.

Dragonite:

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Personally I think Outrage, Dual Wingbeat, Dragon Dance + One of the punches or ES should be standard. This set is just more oppressive and gives Dnite more power in the case that multiscale is broken without activating WP for Dynamax since WP is so telegraphed on Dnite.

Glastrier:

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All things considered, crash is probably better than spear though both are viable.

Heatran:

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I'd get rid of fire blast. I personally think the 10bp power upgrade to the Dynamax isn't worth the utility magma storm/lava plume brings in general. Dragon Pulse could be mentioned as an option vs. Dnite, chomper, salamence, dragapult.

Landorus-T:

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Beyond what I said in the discord about moving the sets, should have a defensive spread somewhere mentioned. Not sure exactly what people are running there but impish/careful is definitely an option.

Mamoswine:

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Thick fat is still the best ability on mamoswine imo for the obvious resistances though oblivious is also fine. Rock tomb could probably be mentioned as a secondary slash.

Mimikyu:

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Due to the drop in mold breaker drill, I think Babiri is no longer really needed on TR Mimi.

Moltres-G:

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rest + lum should probably just be mentioned and not actually be on the set

Naganadel:

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Consistent is spelt incorrectly

Pheromosa:

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Drill run is fine as a slash, for guaranteeing OHKO on Heatran and dealing with regieleki/koko. Normally I wouldnt say have both fighting and ground coverage that hit tran both super effectively, but if pheromosa doesnt ohko shit its dead so yea.

P2:

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I wouldnt be slashing giga impact so much, I understand the reasoning (like return in previous gens) but in practice it doesnt do quite as much as you'd like in the dynamax war vs. the likes of CM Fini. It should definitely still be mentioned though

Salamence:

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DD should probably be first slash on these sets. Item order should be LO, Lum and then perhaps WP. If you want a WP dragon dancer/phyiscal sweeper generally dragonite is better.

Swampert:

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Torrent should definitely still be there just for the boost. Perhaps mention mirrorcoat/counter as a last

Thund-I:

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Id just put superpower as first slash, then taunt then iron tail. Hitting P2/Lax really import.

Zapdos:

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I think you can run modest for extra power, also pressure is still fine if you are running some sub roost set or just in general.

Zapdos-G:

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Needs the thundurous kick more prominently slashed as its probably best fighting move, defence drop is just obnoxious.

 

[Theorymon]

Slower tonight than usual, but here are two more mons!

Hippowdon

Tapu Lele

Also, thanks for the indepth post Ika! I agree with some of it, gonna discuss it with the VR team for sure.

 

[Theorymon]

Alright, here's a nice drop of 5 more Pokemon! We now have 35 analyses written up for the Crown Tundra, just as many as years Super Mario Bros has been out!

Blaziken

Cresselia

Magnezone

Rotom-Wash

Tapu Koko

Additionally, I have implemented 4 of Ika Ika Musume 's non grammar suggestions: for both Zapdos formes, Mimikyu, and Swampert. I may implement more too, just wanna talk with the VR team about them.

I also added a "contributions leaderboard". I'm not sure how many people care, but I'd like to record how many times a contirbution here or on the BSS Discord has been put onsite for each Smogon member!

 

[OU God 850]

I would suggest a gyarados set since ist is B+ Rank and can boost up its attack and Speed using Max airstream and Moxie respectively
Item
@ Lifeorb/Lumberry
Dragon Dance
Waterfall
Bounce
Power whip/ Earthquake/Ice fang

Nature jolly EV spread 252 Attack 4 def 252 Speed
It would be a pleasure to me if you reply to my analysis.

 

[OU God 850]

Now it's time for a far bigger drop of analyses, here are 7 more Pokemon! Expect plenty more tomorrow too!

Cinderace

Metagross

Pheromosa

Porygon2

Raikou

Rillaboom

Salamence

I would suggest another EV spread to salamence being 68 HP 252 Attack 4 def 4 sp def 180 Speed with an adamant nature. This is just enough to outspeed dragapult after a boost of Max airstream of Dragon Dance. It loses a bit of Speed Sure but has more immediate power instead

 

[Ika Ika Musume]

I would suggest another EV spread to salamence being 68 HP 252 Attack 4 def 4 sp def 180 Speed with an adamant nature. This is just enough to outspeed dragapult after a boost of Max airstream of Dragon Dance. It loses a bit of Speed Sure but has more immediate power instead

If you are going to consider that EV spread, I'd advise to put extra EV in spdef for the P2 download number. It's especially important with mence due to being 4x Weak to Ice Beam.

 

[marilli]

Just a few things to note here!

- Don't bother writing out a whole set as if its an analysis. The VR team will take care of the writing part, just post a set if you think we're missing something important.

So first off you clearly didn't read the OP.

blargh

Your writing has a lot of fluff and tautology ("it can sweep if its checks are removed"), which is bad already but so much of it is repeated through the analysis. It also has so many grammatical and formatting errors (Randomly Capitalizing The Beginning Of Every Word is Not Accepted). I understand you don't understand the reasoning behind why which words are capitalized, but there's actually a grammar standard we follow. If you don't know them, that's why the team is offering to do the writing.

It's natural to make formatting errors the first time you write, and the writing team also need Grammar checks, we aren't perfect. But more damning are the dubious content - almost no Pheromosa actually uses Foul Play, meaning Spectrier actually usually is a check to Pheromosa, not the other way around. Barraskewda is really irrelevant in the metagame. Gale Wings is not important in the metagame. You can't just look through Pokemon and order the list by stats and just list off Pokemon into writing an analysis. Metagame knowledge - understanding what Pokemon use what moves and how commonly you can expect them - is a key part of writing an analysis, and this write-up fails there. Agility is a very dubious set that also sees almost no usage, not a main set material, and a lot of Pokemon that you claim a faster Spectrier beats (like Gmax Venusaur), don't actually lose to Scarf pectrier 1v1. There's a reason why Spectrier pretty low in usage and viability. If Spectrier could just beat everything it outsped, then it wouldn't be stuck there. Mentioning Defog and Rapid Spin support for Spectrier is obviously wrong, and so forth.

This won't be making it on site. But that doesn't mean Spectrier won't get an analysis. Some Nasty Plot + Wisp set and a Scarf set can probably make the analysis. If you think you have important points to make, feel free to post in this thread again. If there are good points made, we will take them into consideration.

Cheers.

PS: don't put your real life address on your Smogon profile man ...

 

[Theorymon]

So just one totally new analysis... but its a huge one, and we now cover the top 30 in current Home stats as of this post!

Dragapult

Dragapult has 5 SETS! This one is gonna need some real feedback, dragapult is a total mess of a Pokemon to analyze, there could be tons of different EV spreads to address here for example...

I also did some minor updates to som old analyses. Note though, all of these Pokemon, while still viable in some form, took a major usage hit with the Crown Tundra for various reasons. Some of these are really minor too and all are clearly based on the original writing.

Azumarill

Corviknght

Darmanitan-Galar

Primarina

Porygon-Z

Whimsicott

Counting these Pokemon, we do have 43 analyses up though \o/

Epic_Robotboy I appreciate your effort, but unfortunately I can clearly see you didn't read the first post of this thread: This thread is for leaving feedback on analyses already onsite, not reserving or writing your own. I hate to sound harsh, but part of the reason the VR team is handling these analyses directly is specfically because of the kind of analysis you posted: We can't afford to waste time on analyses written by someone who isn't very experienced with the metagame, when there's a chance Gamefreak could just totally change the rules in 2 months.

Even if we did have analyses with full styles like that up for grabs, your analysis would probably get rejected, unfortunately. The analysis sorta oversells Spectrier (who, while not bad, has some very serious issues in BSS, such as Mimikyu and Dragapult sorta dunking on non Scarf ones, Porygon2 walling Scarf ones, etc). Your analysis also mentions odd Pokemon like Baraskewda (completeley irrelevant in this metagame), Foul Play Pheromosa (pretty much never seen), Azumarill and Porygon-Z (both are viable, but not particularly common this season). I even see Defog and Rapid Spin, which are more OU things than Battle Stadium Singles things. These kinds of mentions, combined with a write-up that mostly states obvious facts, leads me to believe that you are not particularly experienced with the Battle Stadium metagame.

To be clear, I appreciate the effort, but we can't accept work like this ufortunately, especially in our current situation. I would suggest learning the metagame some more, and once you feel comfortable, maybe ask some questions in the simple questions thread, or have a look at our Viability Rankings. Once you gain more experience in this metagame, maybe someday you can contribute by suggesting stuff for our analyses!

I also should be clear on one more thing: Spectrier will probably get an analysis at some point. It's fairly uncommon, but probably viable. Just, it's not very high priority right now when theres more dangrous and more consistent Pokemon left to cover.

 

[Epic_Robotboy]

Thanks for the feedback! I was shocked that I was picking some irrelevant mons that could actually beat it like Barraskewda and Phersomosa with some unconventional moves. It has lots of tautology and has odd (,,,and especially the dubious formatting errors since it is a rough draft of the analysis plus I didn't test Agility Spectrier so that might be stupid of me) picks but I clearly made sets I don't want to waste for the Real Spectrier Analysis. So might I help you out? Here are the sets that are useful and have a niche to fill in the BSS metagame.

Spectrier @ Life Orb
Ability: Grim Neigh
Level: 50
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Shadow Ball
- Dark Pulse
- Mud Shot

The EV's are given to Maximize Special Attack and Speed which will allow Spectrier to deal with many threats without a choice scarf. Life Orb is given to boost its damage output even further since it is snowballing things left to right. Furthermore, it can deal with many Dynamax mons with ease with its invested 145 Special Attack and 130 Speed. A Timid Nature is used to outspeed Jolly Cinderace.

Spectrier @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Grim Neigh
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature/Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shadow Ball
- Dark Pulse
- Mud Shot
- Hyper Beam/Taunt/Will-O-Wisp/Uproar

These two are the sets that I really wanted to suggest for the Real Analysis once it comes out, I could have come and done that route but I didn't any wasted some time working on what could be an "Analysis" for Spectrier. Anyway thanks for the feedback I'll suggest some more mons for the upcoming developing analysis on the BSS metagame, Epic_Robotboy out.

 

[hg32]

Alternative EV spreads for Screens Regieleki: 4 HP/116 Def/124 SpD (respectively, 12 HP/180 Def/188 SpD) lives an Earthquake from Jolly (respectively, Adamant) Lando-T through Reflect, and avoids giving a SpA boost to Porygon2. You can then go Modest 28 Spe, which outspeeds Pheromosa, or Timid 20 Spe, which outspeeds Scarf Urshifu-R. The rest goes in SpA.

 

[marilli]

84 HP / 76 Def / 84 SpD accomplishes same benchmarks for Jolly Landorus EQ, 116 HP / 116 Def / 124 SpD accomplishes same benchmarks for Adamant Landorus EQ. Unless there is a relevant calc that 4HP / 124SpD accomplishes but 84 / 84 don't (such concrete calcs always take priority over minute theoretical optimizations, so if there is such a calc 4/116/124 would indeed be superior), this saves 8 and 24 EV points each, and gives more HP stat if it is physical Wild Charge variant which is common because Explosion. Effects of higher HP base stat are often greatly exaggerated.

Lando EQ + download is a good benchmark though, and should be added on site.

 

[hg32]

Thanks for the feedback. 4/116/124 and 84/76/84 actually both use 244 EVs, but your point about HP stands. You could also go 92/68/76 for the same benchmark, which does save 8 EVs and still has the HP advantage.

 

[Theorymon]

After taking a break, its time to start uploading stuff again! There aren't really any metagame defining Pokemon left (though the metagame defining Pokemon up can use some refining, of course!), but we still got some usable stuff that hasn't gotten analyses yet!

There's just 3 new mons going up now, but there should be more tomorrow!

Kartana

Dracovish

Grimmsnarl

Also hg32 I implemented the Regieleki spreads you and marilli came up with. I got some suggestion implementions to catch up on in Discord too.

 

[Theorymon]

Took a little longer than expected but... WE HAVE NOW REACHED 50 ANALYSES UPLOADED, HUZZAHH!!!

There's still more work to be done of course, but we have now covered a majority of the major Pokemon in this metagame in some form. There's still sets to add to these Pokemon, and we actually still have more analyses coming up, but this is a cool milestone to reach!

Here are the lucky 5 new additions to our Crown Tundra analyses!

Excadrill

Gyarados

Suicune

Toxapex

Tyranitar

I also swept through our 50 Pokemon analyses, fixed a few issues here and there (many of which you guys suggested, thank you very much!), and also added a new "section".

This new section is the Items section! Since Battle Stadium Singles has Item clause, this leads to Pokemon looking for a wider variety of item choices than some metagames, which some of our readers found confusing. Any time item choices are talked about now, they're under this little section, so you can quickly skim to them if you're struggling to figure out your item!

 

[Theorymon]

Since we've covered most of the important stuff, things have been going slower. However, there's been metagame shifts as you'd expect, so we're sweeping through the dex to update stuff!

Before we do that though, 1_TrickPhony has done 4 more analyses! These are for Pokemon that, while not particularly common in Battle Stadium Singles right now, still have some degree of viability. Here they are below!

Clefable

Rotom-H

Snorlax

Spectrier

Additionally, we're trying a new experiment: we brought back Other Options!

These aren't your ordinary Other Options however: they have entire sets under them! The idea is, this lets us cover sets that aren't as relevant as the main ones, but still offer some sort of niche. The one's we've done currently are below, but expect more to come this month!

Ferrothorn (Choice Band)

Landorus-T (Suicide Lead)

 

[XIF]

Hey one tiny suggestion for Grimmsnarl that I didn't see in the BSS analysis. Been playing the new DLC since it dropped with over 1000 matches over the past season and a half. I'm no amazing player but I have broken into top 100 a couple of times.

Foul Play is I think a good alternative in this meta over Spirit Break. I run Screens, Foul Play, and Taunt. I tried spirit break but there are just so many special attackers that Grimmsnarl matches up poorly against (like the Tapus and Nihilego) that are everywhere. Usually between taunt and screens you're already dead after the first few turns.

Foul play allows you to check Dragon Dance and Swords Dance set up sweepers, many people go for two boosts against Grimmsnarl especially if you don't show off the taunt. Crucially, Foul Play will do over 50% to Dragonite through multiscale after two dances. But it can be used to turn the tables on Pokemon even like SD Excadrill if they get greedy.

It also matches up well vs Landorous-T, Cinderace without Gunkshot, among a lot of other physical threats. I think it's worth at least mentioning as an option on the analysis.

 

[1_TrickPhony]

Hey one tiny suggestion for Grimmsnarl that I didn't see in the BSS analysis. Been playing the new DLC since it dropped with over 1000 matches over the past season and a half. I'm no amazing player but I have broken into top 100 a couple of times.

Foul Play is I think a good alternative in this meta over Spirit Break. I run Screens, Foul Play, and Taunt. I tried spirit break but there are just so many special attackers that Grimmsnarl matches up poorly against (like the Tapus and Nihilego) that are everywhere. Usually between taunt and screens you're already dead after the first few turns.

Foul play allows you to check Dragon Dance and Swords Dance set up sweepers, many people go for two boosts against Grimmsnarl especially if you don't show off the taunt. Crucially, Foul Play will do over 50% to Dragonite through multiscale after two dances. But it can be used to turn the tables on Pokemon even like SD Excadrill if they get greedy.

It also matches up well vs Landorous-T, Cinderace without Gunkshot, among a lot of other physical threats. I think it's worth at least mentioning as an option on the analysis.

I think you might be missing something. Special attackers are WHY you run spirit break, because foul play does nothing to them and spirit break ensures they take large chunks, breaks sub, and they cannot freely set up on you. If you are worried about physical attackers setting up SD/DD, use Taunt, lol.
Usage also backs up the choice of spirit break > foul play, with it being the most used move at 83%, vs 12% foul play. Foul play could be used, but not over spirit break imo, and most likely not with a Dual screens set, rather a Trick set or the likes.

 

[Omastar68]

For a very long time I had been using Weakness Policy Landorus-T. I think that set is worth a mention at least in Other Options which are missing in Landog's analysis(or do you guys not have that section anymore/here? idk) Anyway here is the set.

Landorus-Therian (M) @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Intimidate
Level: 50
EVs: 116 HP / 100 Atk / 4 Def / 76 SpD / 212 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Fly
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Swords Dance

The EVs outspeed just up to max 85s, to allow you to live Max SpA Max Hailstorm and Specs Ice Beam from Fini Dynamaaxed, and also Ninetails-A Blizzard. I could look up more it's done well for me though. Notably the DFini thing, they beat Landog normally. Also a 50% chance to live 252 SpA Nihilego Meteor Beam, more if they run less SpA to get the Spe boost.

 

[1_TrickPhony]

For a very long time I had been using Weakness Policy Landorus-T. I think that set is worth a mention at least in Other Options which are missing in Landog's analysis(or do you guys not have that section anymore/here? idk) Anyway here is the set.

Landorus-Therian (M) @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Intimidate
Level: 50
EVs: 116 HP / 100 Atk / 4 Def / 76 SpD / 212 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Fly
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Swords Dance

The EVs outspeed just up to max 85s, to allow you to live Max SpA Max Hailstorm and Specs Ice Beam from Fini Dynamaaxed, and also Ninetails-A Blizzard. I could look up more it's done well for me though. Notably the DFini thing, they beat Landog normally.

Lando-T is a top 5 mon and this item isn't its top 10 item usage; lot of other sets are worth mentioning over Weakness Policy. Basically any Poke can use weakness policy, you will have to give better reasoning to warrant its inclusion, especially considering lando already has 4 sets in its analysis.

 

[Omastar68]

Well ok. I'll admit Fini is basically the whole purpose. But much of the whole purpose of Lum Berry is Hippo, and Fini is even more common than Hippo. Are the EVs good at least? They were made w. WP in mind so maybe not.