Resource [Crown Tundra] Sword/Shield BSS Viability Rankings

marilli

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I think you're "sleeping" on the other Pokemon in B right now. Spectrier is a fine Pokemon, but Mamoswine, Azumarill, Rhyperior, Blissey / Chansey, Clefable, Darmanitan, all are great Pokemon seeing high ladder representation. B isn't some kind of a poor below-average grade like in grade-inflated high school. I've always maintained the position that if the name of the tiers upsets people I wouldn't mind a number-tier (Tier 1, Tier 2, Tier 3, etc.) Many of these other Pokemon like Mamoswine / Azumarill / Darmanitan are a huge pain to switch into as well, but have better matchup ability. We will see as the team reports start rolling in, though. Spectrier had 1 high rated finish last season, and I wouldn't be too surprised if Spectrier usage hasn't change much on high ladder.

Spectrier has many flaws, most notable of which are its poor 1v1 matchup potential. 2HKOing offensive threats sounds good until you realize it can mean doing 30% to Dynamax Cinderace / Landorus / Zapdos and getting spectrier KOed, or Dynamaxing Spectrier, and still get 2HKOed by Airstream and losing the 1v1 and letting Cinderace fire off another max move on your team. Thus, it needs to be fed a KO to compensate for it by boosting its Special Attack and Dynamax in order to be at its best - this is still achievable, but very much restricts its usage, as seen by its low and even further declining usage. It needs a +1 SpA boost to 2HKO no bulk Dynamax Zapdos / Cinderace / Landorus with Max Strike + Max Phantasm combo. Honestly I think this ability to score said 2HKO after +1 is a big reason to why I believe Spectrier is as viable as it currently is. Many Spectrier are Life Orb in order to fully guarantee this specific 2HKO even against bulk-invested Zapdos, and I fully agree with that line of reasoning. it also allows Spectrier to keep its access to good Status moves, like Will-O-Wisp to play around Sucker Punch, or Nasty Plot to proactively boost damage against foes that switch out.
 
Hey, I know people are trying to put Spectrier in B+ and I was definitely on the hype train of not disrespecting the Ghost Horse partially because it was a bit of a meme, it was honestly underrated at the time by some people and was looking likely to be moved down if anything. I hoped my weight defending it would somewhat counteract some of the pushback that surrounded it.

That being said, Spectrier in my personal opinion is not of the caliber to be B+. For me, I generally look at a few things when assessing the viability of a pokemon. A lot of what was said above is talking about calcs and whilst that is useful, these things can be theorycrafted for a lot of pokemon when ignoring their flaws. Keep in mind that this is just my own metrics and my opinion generally differs quite significantly from most of those in charge of the VR list with a few exceptions.

1. What is its usage both overall and in Top Team placings on Nouthuca?
2. What utility/niche does it provide in the meta and how significant/strong is that Niche?
3. How versatile is the pick and how often as a general percentage can it be brought to games? ie. Matchup Spread
4. What are its weaknesses and how much does a team composition need to compensate for said weakness in the teambuilder?
5. How flexible/predictable is the pokemon in terms of build choice that are viable on said pokemon?

Allow me to go through these one by one and explain where Spectrier falls short as I think this is probably more useful than simply saying that Spectrier is bad and hopefully this can serve as a general template for other such Pokemon.

1. What is its usage both overall and in Top Team placings on Nouthuca?

It is important to look at usage because usage generally, though not always, correlates with the Viability Rankings. Take the S tier for example, the four Pokemon in this tier are also the top pokemon in terms of usage. Viability creates usage because people want to win and therefore generally use Pokemon with more of a niche. In a perfect world, a Pokemon at B+ will always have a higher usage than a Pokemon at B. There are several reasons why that isn't, but I won't get into them here. Just think of this as one of many metrics. There are currently 29 Pokemon in A- or above and 45 Pokemon in B+ or above. Spectrier in usage is currently 63rd. I do think there is some leeway in this, but personally I think that Spectrier is a bit too far away from where it should be in usage. Perhaps it is the case though that Spectrier sees less usage at lower levels of play and more at top levels of play, which is where looking at Nouthuca comes in.

https://daminmusaboro.hatenablog.com/entry/2020/12/01/173932

This is the only Nouthuca team that contains Spectrier, granted it is a team that came 19th so perhaps there will be more usage of Spectrier on top teams in S13 but there is no evidence to suggest that so far. This actually is pretty low for a B pokemon, nevermind a B+ pokemon. Blaziken for example featured on 11 teams. Even Snorlax and Togekiss, which I think are long overdue a drop from B+ tier are featured on 5 and 3 teams respectively.

Conclusion: Spectrier is not B+

2. What utility/niche does it provide in the meta and how significant/strong is that Niche?

This is always a pretty difficult one to answer, but for a Pokemon to be assigned a ranking, it needs to have something to offer on the table for a team composition. This is generally something that another Pokemon cannot strictly do better. Raboot is an example of a pokemon that is strictly outclassed despite probably being better than some Pokemon on the VR. Even though Raboot has alright Attack, Speed and Libero, it has very little to nothing to offer that Cinderace cannot strictly do better and therefore it should not be ranked. Pokemon in B+ generally have flaws but also significant unique properties that no other pokemon can do as well make them a viable pick in the meta. Blaziken for example has Speed Boost as well as access to Baton Pass, so it can fulfill a role that no other pokemon can do as well despite having some clear flaws and can put in work in the majority of scenarios. I could say similar things for other pokemon in B+.

Spectrier is a fast yet frail Ghost-type Sweeper which I would argue it does decently enough with a issues when it comes to positioning for setup. How strong is this niche? Well you then have to look at the meta itself and how easy it is for Spectrier to sweep. The main issue sits right up there in S Tier, Mimikyu. Mimikyu consistently stops Spectrier from sweeping and yes Spectrier has will-o-wisp but Mimikyu would still do its job. It also struggles vs. Cinderace Sucker Punch and loses the Dynamax 1v1 versus both Landorus-T and Zapdos due to Max Airstream. I could also say that Spectrier also consistently loses to Dragapult and Nihilego in A+ whilst having no really positive matchups in A+ other than vs. Hippowdon which generally does not win 1v1s and instead is a support provides utility for its team. It is also way too difficult to get off Nasty Plot in most games without dedicated support. It is also difficult for it to win a 1v1 and get off Grim Neigh making it situational and even then a lot of pokemon can beat/revenge a +1 Spectrier.

Another major issue is there is another fast yet (a lot less) frail Ghost-type Sweeper called Dragapult. Dragapult is also way more flexible in that it can not only do what Spectrier can do but many other things that Spectrier cannot do. Dragapult is also bulkier and faster so wins the 1v1 vs. Spectrier. So even if Ghost-type Sweeper was a strong niche, then Dragapult due to being able to also fulfill it and being less predictable in team preview would take away a lot of that niche. Spectriers niche therefore is cut significantly by the existence of Dragapult and if Dragapult could only do what Spectrier could do, it would be in B too. It is in A+ because it can do so many things.

Conclusion: Spectrier is not B+

3. How versatile is the pick and how often as a general percentage can it be brought to games? ie. Matchup Spread

I covered a lot of this above where I talked about how it generally loses to all of S and a large part of A+. To put it one way, I'd guess that Spectrier is significantly threatened by/struggles with Mimikyu, Landorus-T, Cinderace, Zapdos, Nihilego, Urshifu, Porygon2, Dracovish, Dragapult, Dragonite, Dragapult and Moltres-Galar, all of which you will likely see in at least 8-10% of games with the first four being seen in over 30% of games at a bare minimum. So essentially, it is going to be on the bench a lot of games because most teams will have multiple ways if not 3+ pokemon that can beat Spectrier. It is also not versatile at all, it can only Nasty Plot/CM Sweep or Scarf Sweep. So when you look at Spectrier in team preview, you know what it is doing and this niche it holds isn't even that difficult to deal with since even if your team is weak to it for whatever reason, Mimikyu which is as common as a belly button instantly makes Spectrier useless. Compare that to its direct rival Dragapult which has been around since release and still no-one has any idea what its set is going to be when it loads into a game. It also, unlike Kommo-o from USUM which also had glaring flaws, doesn't automatically win the game when its checks aren't found on the opponents team. Excadrill is in B+ (perhaps it shouldn't be but that's a different story), it can be brought nearly every single game regardless of what the opponent has, it only really sucks against Landorus-T, Hippowdon and Celesteela from S/A+ and generally you are not going to have 3+ pokemon that beat Excadrill on the opponents team. The difference in how often it can be brought at team preview is massive.

Conclusion: Spectrier is not B+

4. What are its weaknesses and how much does a team composition need to compensate for said weakness in the teambuilder?

I've gone through its weaknesses so I won't cover this again, but talking from a teambuilding standpoint, Spectrier can be like playing 5v6 at team preview a lot of the time which constricts your team composition in terms of flexibility and opens up big weaknesses such as to Mimikyu that need to be compensated for and being weak to Mimikyu is very bad. Most of the stuff in B+, you could pop on any team so long as it made sense and it would be fine and not particularly constricting. You need to have a special reason to put Spectrier on your team otherwise it just isn't going to work. Even on the top team I linked to earlier, Spectrier was part of a Stall with a very specific niche, it just doesn't function as well as Dragapult on GoodStuffs.

Conclusion: Spectrier is not B+

5. How flexible/predictable is the pokemon in terms of build choice that are viable on said pokemon?

As said above, Spectrier, not flexible, very predictable and has very few viable builds. Comparing it to Dragapult is an insult to Dragapult unfortunately. This lowers its threat level and the likelihood the opponent is going to make a mistake in team preview against it.

Conclusion: Spectrier is not B+


I hope this makes sense and helps see things at least in my perspective.
 
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My suggestions:

Excadrill B+ -> A-: Dunno why it is in B+, this pokemon is so good, top 20 in usage, seen on loads of top teams, can be brought nearly every match, beats large swaths of higher tiers and will put in work. Trades very well, one of if not the best Mimikyu check in the game and can even trade with pokemon that have super effective moves vs. it. It definitely dropped for a time when Celesteela was king but that is not the case anymore. It's clearly an outlier in this tier.

Togekiss B+ -> B: It's just not as good anymore unfortunately, especially having a bad Zapdos matchup and more checks being available in Crowned Tundra.

Snorlax B+ -> B: I think it suffers from a lot of competition from Porygon2 which is better at checking physical threats, better recovery, does more damage in the Dynamax war off the rip and also has a few unique traits such as Trick Room. A lot of the traditional sets don't work as well anymore, especially since Urshifu Exists. it's still definitely good but for now it should go down.

Cloyster C+ -> B-/B: Cloyster is actually not that bad and shouldn't be in the C tier since it does do well vs. the big 4 and can trade with Dynamaxers without using Dynamax and in general is a great 1v1er. Can actually deal with Dnite and Vish and forces opponents hand in battle. It might even be in B tier tbh.

Ninetales-A C+ -> B-/B: The fact Ninetales gets Snow Warning + Veil and is relatively fast makes it better than all of C+ and all of B-. It does have weaknesses in the lead slot such as to Nihilego but it can sacrifice itself to allow dangerous threats to sweep.
 
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I’ve been following this thread since last month, played almost 1000 battles and I just registered to say that in this meta the most unpredictable shit happens every time. Suddenly, a rank C Pokémon can sweep your entire team of rank As with a Dynamaxed Weakness Policy or some Max Airstream.

Because of this, Unaware Clefable has become an integral part of my team. She can successfully ignore any Weakness Policy bs and has enough bulk to take on dynamaxed Glastier when she dynamaxes too. Unfortunately she doesn’t do well against Metagross.

So in the end it’s basically luck because if your chosen 3 are bad matchups your chances of winning become pretty low. My current team is basically Pokémon that can have a chance against common matchups like Dracovish, Dragonite, Gyarados and Tapu Fini.
 
Clefable is good, I've had a lot of trouble w/ boosters, mainly WP. Clef beats Moltres and Zapdos g very well, which are examples of wp users. However I think marilli's comment about B rank not being bad applies here. Clefable is probably fine there.
 
I’ve also been using and testing various tricksters (trick+choice scarf) simply because I suck at wallbreaking Porygon2, Cresselia and Toxapex, lol. I’ve came up with Shadow Tag Gothitelle as one of the best, because you don’t need to rely on unpredictability, you just send her and she does the job. However, if the 3vs3 ends up with no walls then she becomes a bit useless. The build I’m using has Trick, Thunder Wave, Calm Mind and Stored Power. I would nominate her for something like C rank maybe, just because of the niche of trapping walls. Thunder wave can be exchanged for Taunt and if the wall has chosen to Recover after the Trick then it becomes pretty funny because they struggle until faint.
 

marilli

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People use Rest on that set, not T-wave, because it lets Gothitelle actually beat walls that go for a weak attack, instead of banking on them using a status move on the turn they get Tricked. This makes Gothitelle far more consistent with Rest. It is a fine set, though it sees almost no use because of its situational nature. While we see the definitive niche, it makes it difficult for us to rank it among other Pokemon that actually do have real usage from other high ranked players, but I'd be OK with a mention in the lowest vr tier. I think sorting out the current A-/B+ tiers have more priority, though, which includes Excadrill, Togekiss, and other Pokemon not yet nominated.

My nominations are:

to A+:

Ferrothorn: A -> A+
I guess Psynergy was right all along, Cinderace and Heat Wave Zapdos notwithstanding, Ferrothorn checks so many dangerous Pokemon including Mimikyu, Fini, Rillaboom, Nihilego, Porygon2, Dracovish, and more. It is backed up by usage stats in top ranked teams which is now higher than Celesteela. Iron Defense set can take over games with 1 Pokemon removed. Has excellent synergy with Hippowdon and Zapdos and other meta threats, and is the premier steel-type in the current meta for being able to actually check things like Nihilego. A big problem with Celesteela is that it's very awkward to fit another Nihilego answer in without stacking Zapdos / Cinderace weaknesses, and Ferrothorn is a big winner of the said metagame trend. Indeed, Celesteela are seeing more usage on stallier teams that can afford a Chansey to handle that without stacking a second Steel.

Urshifu-SS: A -> A+
This is such a menace to switch into. CB and Scarf and other sets have taken off, which makes it that much more dangerous. It naturally throttles defensive builds which are rising in popularity, which are making them go through drastic measures to handle it, and in spite of all that, Urshifu-SS usage has risen and has stayed there. It's just so good! It also stops defensive balanced teams from completely folding over to CM Psychic type sweepers. Rapid Strike is significantly worse because of this fact, and the worse stall matchup

Dragonite: A -> A+
Dragonite has really come to its own in the current bss metagame. Being a great dynamax-first sweeper was always an obvious draw of using Dragonite, but its ability to use Roost + DD with Kee / Maranga berry makes it a defensive - offensive threat able to set up on Pokemon that seemingly check it, like Tapu Fini, and Boots Dragonite has taken off as a way to stopper various attackers on stall disregarding stealth rock, and turn it into their own offense.

to A:

Nihilego: A+ -> A
Nihilego has taken a small drop in usage due to the rising variety of Zapdos checks. Nihilego is stopped by other Zapdos checks like Excadrill, and it is also the Zapdos check with the biggest target painted on its back, leading to entire cores being built around abusing Nihilego's status as a premier offensive Zapdos check. Steel-types like Ferrothorn and Excadrill and Magnezone are rising which is a double whammy - not only are they there to check Nihilego, many of them are taking away from Nihilego's niche by checking common Zapdos sets.

Toxapex: A- -> A
Toxapex is so god damn good. It's a big part in the meteoric rise of stall teams. Checks so much including but not limited to most Cinderace, Mimikyu, Fini, Dracovish, Pheromosa, Urshifu-RS. It's an integral part of stall, arguably more so than Chansey / Blissey.

Tyranitar: A- -> A

One of many other rising Zapdos checks. Unlike Nihilego, it has better utility and bulk that enable its use on more defensive teams. And it has the mixed coverage to not concede easy switches if necessary, though such coverage isn't necessary for its consistent success. It also stops defensive balanced teams from completely folding over to CM Psychic types just like Dark Urshifu does.

Excadrill: B+ -> A-/A

Well said by Ika, I can realistically see both A and A- for Excadrill, which has seen an explosion of usage.

To A-:

Glastrier: A -> A-

Glastrier's suffering from several factors in the metagame. First is the rise of Urshifu, and the other is the rise of various Steel-types and Toxapex that naturally check Glastrier. While Landorus, Mimikyu, Zapdos still lose to Glastier 1v1, it cannot switch into these Pokemon without taking heavy damage.

Kartana: B+ -> A-

Part of the larger trend stated that favors Steel-types. Unlike other Steel-types, Kartana is faster than Urshifu, and has great time using Dynamax with Stealth Rock support. It's an added bonus how the Water and Grass-types that pressure common SR users give free point of entry for Kartana.

Magnezone: B+ -> A-

Part of the larger trend stated that favors Steel-types. While it is still slow, Magnezone has access to Custap + Sturdy that enables it to gain control of its own priority. It is great at trading and at positioning your other Pokemon at an advantageous position. Weakness Policy sets are trending much on Korean teams and I also find that very good, though it is lower in usage stats overall.

Chansey: B- -> A-/ B+

Integral part of rise of stall teams. I feel like everyone knows what this does already. Make good use of your timer win condition when using Chansey. You will almost always win the timer tiebreak win condition if you play your high HP correctly.

To B+:

Naganadel: A -> B+/A-

Never been convinced of Naganadel, but it's really not very good. It loses to common top tier Pokemon like Zapdos, Mimikyu, Landorus-T, 1v1, and has difficult time setting up. Rise of Tyranitar and other Specially Defensive sponges has been devastating for it

drops to A- -> B+ ?

These Pokemon were expected to be good but never really realized high usage. Dragonite usage rising has eaten up Salamence's usage completely. Rotom-W never got that usage despite its seemingly good type matchup everywhere. Moltres is suffering from the Zapdos as well as the Zapdos counters. Metagross is the weirdest of the bunch to me because other Steel-types are thriving so much, but I think an argument could be made that it makes sense to drop it for now as it never really met its expectations on how good it's supposed to be. Being Weak to Wicked Blow kinda sucks too. These Pokemon should make the baseline for new B+

: Stays B+

Garchomp, Thundurus and Rotom-H has found good niche in being other solid Zapdos checks that don't lose to Excadrill / Ferrothorn immediately. Lapras has found revitalized usage thanks to it checking Dracovish, and also being the Water-type that has best matchup vs Zapdos. Blaziken's niche as a BP user + decent Dynamax attacker in one has made it pretty good in my eyes, and apparently, in eyes of other top japanese players.

Rhyperior: Rises to B+

Great Zapdos / Cinderace check that exerts offensive pressure. It is very favored by top Japanese players at the moment.

To B and below:

: Falls to B

In order to combat the serious tier bloat I suggest inserting a tier between current B+ and B, placing these Pokemon there, and moving down every tier name by 1 step. Many of these are leftover from previous metagames like Snorlax / Togekiss that has completely failed to redeem itself.

Low tier "rises": While most lowtiers go down 1 tier due to traffic control at B+, there's a few that warrants higher placement

: Stays B

Latias is really good vs the meta teams that utilize Zapdos, Nihilego, Ferrothorn, Excadrill, etc. cores. It's also dominant against defensive cycle builds. The main problem holding it back is its Mimikyu, Tyranitar and Urshifu weakness which is a big problem, but it is still better than the rest of current B to stay there because of how it warps team preview against the most common team archetypes. Clefable's Unaware set is really good at checking a lot of boosting threats, while Mamoswine is a coveted Ground-type attacker that checks Electrics, Flying-types like Landorus / Dragonite, as well as a lot of Rock and Steel-types mentioned above, Kartana being an exception due to its faster speed. While Darmanitan doesn't have STAB on its EQ, it very much threatens similar Pokemon and has higher Speed and Flare Blitz to boot.

Skarmory: stays B-/ Rise to B

Good fixture on stall teams for being an epic Steel-type that has higher physical bulk than Celesteela to wall things and pressure with Body Press. It's not a Rock resist but this was never taking on Nihilego anyways.

Slowking: add to B/B-

I mentioned this in a previous post iirc.

No strong opinion below B-, but I am open to adding things like Gothitelle to C/C-.

As a bit of an aside, I'm not going to exactly point to the offending post (it's not the Gothitelle post, don't worry wyrmheroblade, I personally enjoy using Gothitelle and brought the exact set in BSS circuit finals here, even though I 1. didn't get to bring it because I didn't face stall I expected to face, 2. lost the game anyways) because I want to be nice, but if you are nominating something and expecting us to actually vote on it, please provide as much supporting argument. Please talk about your experience using it, instead of using this thread to theorize about a potential niche. Post what type of team you used with it, what its flaws and poor matchup were, and what makes it worth using in your opinion in spite of that. The second part about its flaws and how its flaws actually impact real gameplay, and how you play around it is super important - especially if the Pokemon isn't ranked here or is ranked very low! It's easy to make bad Pokemon sound great if you are just going on about its positives. Replays are very helpful tools to get you to talk about such specifics, which can be hard for some people not so well versed in forum discussion rhetoric skills.

Without such supporting evidences. feel free to use the general discussion thread otherwise.
 
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er that'd be my post. I already had detailed the mainly physical threats Drifblim does deal w/. Earlier today I lived a Rock Tomb on the switch followed by a Max Rocfall(w/o Sitrus proccing,) from Excadrill w. it, then it got Strength Sapped then burned. I did not win but Drufblim did work, also burning their Dracovish. I'd post replays as I've had it shut down whole teams, but the thing wasn't working that lets you save them.

The biggest strengths I routinely see in Drifblim is vs. Pheromosa(special does Ice beam, but then I'm faster and D-bond it if they don't dynamax,) Rillabloom(Knock Off on the switch wins it for them but any other way Drifblim drains it then burns,) and Kartana(this one actually doesn't have a wincon vs. it, even obscure.) There's many others, and I think I cover all the common ones and then some in my post a while back, like on the 2nd page of this. A lot of stuff unfortunately will run obscure coverage(rockfall DNite,) or be special unexpectedly(DNite again,) but some others Drifblim does well w/ are Urshiufu RS, Dracovish(it's a roll but I likely live Rend,) Cinderace, and more and more often I'm seeing it w/ Mimikyu cause it gets burned and then takes very much from Hex.

Fault wise you naturally get Zapdos a lot. It won't dynamax on a mon it can ohko regularly though, so if I'm faster Destiny Bond should get it and even w/ my love of Drifblim that's a good trade. Kinda a rare situation where I do catch Zapdos w/ it so I do have Nihilego and, atm, av koko. Fini is a weakness since I can't even burn it to power up Hex, but I use a WP Landog that baits it, and Koko. Most special attackers are a threat to Drifblim and I don't really see a fix to that, but similar issue is found w/ G-Corsola which also gets Wisp and Strength Sap(though not Destiny Bond, not that it could use that w/o speed anyways. W/ D-bond I managed to kill a CM Blissey even though I can't hit it directly,) and I nominated Drifblim to C+. I won't argue more for it if it gets shot down, but an official vote would be nice since so many thinghs do get one.
 
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I agree with most of the nominations Marilli has mentioned on top of my own suggestions, I would have made a larger list but did not really want to throw stuff so far up in the air. I won't go through individually but, the ones in particular I would point out would be Urshifu-SS as this pokemon is an utter pain to deal with especially banded wicked blow and on the defensive side, Ferrothorn and Toxapex are just excellent and cover so much of the meta despite having a few weaknesses that are easily compensated elsewhere in the team composition. Steel types in general are also (Metagross excluded which is unfortunately held back defensively by its psychic type) on the rise as I believe its slowly being realised that double steel compositions are still very good, even the classic Ferro Tran + Dragon comps from gen 7.
 
I don't think I disagree w/ the above anywhere(well maybe on Glastrier but my team is also majorly weak to it everywhere so idk. Also Nihileo is #6 in usage so there's thhat against it dropping.) but wanted to agree extra on Urshifu SS(more common than RS and ore dangerous to me so I'm biased,) Ferro(so annoying not by itself but as part of a team where fire is covered and it can switch in on for ex. Dracovish and cause them damage w/o taking much, then the Leech Seed,) and Naganadel(I never cared for it either! Too low defenses and lower BST than other UBs iirc.)
 
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Psynergy

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Sorry for the late update, various things delayed the voting so this is happening later than usual. You'll notice a few things, one is that Theorymon didn't vote this time around due to other priorities at the moment, we could have waited a bit longer for his vote but this is already happening later than expected so we'll be going with one less vote this time around. Another is that DragonWhale has stepped down from the VR council, following up from stepping down from BSS lead. His contributions as a Japanese player always provided great insight on meta trends from Japanese players that we wouldn't have had otherwise, so it's hard to see him go. Thanks again for all the help all these years! His legacy will be making sure Toxapex rises during this vote.

Not too much else to say about the votes, though one very notable detail is that as per marilli's suggestion, we voted with the mindset that there would be a "new" rank between B+ and B. In reality we're mostly just moving everything below B+ down a tier and the "new" B rank is what we decided to drop or keep there. Everything below B+ rank that didn't have a vote that leaned otherwise is automatically being shifted down a rank. You'll notice a C- rank now to accommodate this, which also results in a consistency of all ranks having 3 subranks now since C rank was previously just C+ and C.

As always though, thanks for all the nominations so far. If anything here is confusing or if you see anything that looks out of place, feel free to bring it up!

Changes:
Slowking (Galar) rises from UR to B-
Arctozolt rises from UR to C+
Stakataka rises from UR to C
Buzzwole rises from UR to C
Excadrill rises from B+ to A-
Togekiss drops from B+ to B
Snorlax drops from B+ to B
Cloyster rises from C+ to B-
Ninetales (Alola) rises from C+ to B-
Gothitelle rises from UR to C+
Ferrothorn rises from A to A+
Urshifu (Single Strike) rises from A to A+
Dragonite rises from A to A+
Nihilego drops from A+ to A
Toxapex rises from A- to A
Tyranitar rises from A- to A
Glastrier drops from A to A-
Kartana rises from B+ to A-
Magnezone rises from B+ to A-
Chansey rises from B- to B+
Naganadel drops from A to B+
Metagross drops from A- to B+
Moltres (Galar) drops from A- to B+
Rotom (Wash) drops from A- to B+
Salamence drops from A- to B+
Rhyperior rises from B to B+
Raikou drops from B+ to B
Suicune drops from B+ to B
Tapu Koko drops from B+ to B
Tapu Lele drops from B+ to B
Thundurus drops from B+ to B
Skarmory rises from B- to B
Latias stays in B
Clefable stays in B
Mamoswine stays in B
Darmanitan (Galar) stays in B
Grimmsnarl stays in B
Everything else that was previously B rank or lower has moved down 1 rank, C- rank created


Smogon UsernameSlowking (Galar): Rank from UR to B/B-/C+Arctozolt: Rank from UR to B-/C+Stakataka: Rank from UR to B-/C+Buzzwole: Rank from UR to B-/C+Excadrill: Raise from B+ to A-Togekiss: Drop from B+ to BSnorlax: Drop from B+ to BCloyster: Raise from C+ to B/B-Ninetales (Alola): Raise from C+ to B/B-Gothitelle: Rank from UR to C+/CFerrothorn: Raise from A to A+Urshifu (Single Strike): Raise from A to A+Dragonite: Raise from A to A+Nihilego: Drop from A+ to AToxapex: Raise from A- to A/A+Tyranitar: Raise from A- to AGlastrier: Drop from A to A-Kartana: Raise from B+ to A-Magnezone: Raise from B+ to A-Chansey: Raise from B- to A-/B+Naganadel: Drop from A to A-/B+Metagross: Drop from A- to B+Moltres (Galar): Drop from A- to B+Rotom (Wash): Drop from A- to B+Salamence: Drop from A- to B+Rhyperior: Raise from B to B+Gyarados: Drop from B+ to BRaikou: Drop from B+ to BSuicune: Drop from B+ to BTapu Koko: Drop from B+ to BTapu Lele: Drop from B+ to BThundurus: Drop from B+ to BLatias: Keep in B or drop to B-?Clefable: Keep in B or drop to B-?Mamoswine: Keep in B or drop to B-?Darmanitan (Galar): Keep in B or drop to B-?Grimmsnarl: Keep in B or drop to B-?Skarmory: Keep in B- or Rise to B?
PsynergyB-B-C+C+A-BBB-B-C+A+A+A+AA, I think A+ is valid but I'm less sure I'd recommend it so readily.A, Airstream resists are goodA-, I think this thing is still insane when it works but some matchups are really hard for it.A-A-B+B+, You'd think Dynamax would help this thing but nah this thing definitely was overhyped, again.B+, Agree with marilli's nom that this thing feels like it should be A- in theory but its usage doesn't support that. Drop for now.B+B+, I honestly forgot this thing existed.B+, thought this thing would be better than Dragonite but I guess I was wrong.B+, Rhyperior gangBBBBBBKeep in BKeep in BKeep in BKeep in BKeep in BKeep in B-
1tpRise to B-Rise to C+Rise to CRise to C+Rise to A, its on the border to A-/A, but would clearly stand out as the most useful in A- so lets just go A, make up for it being criminally underrated last slateDrop to BDrop to BRise to B-Rise to B-Rise to C+Rise to A+Rise to A+. Rise to A+Drop to ARise to A, close to A+ for me, but I don't think we need to rise by 2 in one slate for a mon that needs a good amount of support as a stall-oriented mon and will now have to face a full season of ppl counterteaming it.Rise to ADrop to A-Rise to A, this thing absolutely massacres half the meta, and even against things it "loses" against like Zapdos cant switch in.Rise to A-Rise to A-Drop to B+Drop to B+Drop to B+Drop to B+Drop to B+Rise to B+Stay B+Drop to BDrop to BStay B+Drop to BDrop to BKeep in BKeep in BKeep in BKeep in BKeep in BRise to B. Its on the border of B and B-, but since Corviknight is B I'm willing to give this the benefit of the doubt since it got a lot better.
marilliB. I made comments on almost all of those already so I don't have to fill out my responses in this tiny sheet.B-CCA-BBC+B-CA+A+A+AA+. I've been convinced of Toxapex to A+ for now. Its high concentration on top teams despite its medium usage is quite impressive. The Pokemon may fall out of favor when stall is heavily prepared for, but I think it deserves its spot in A+ for now.AA-A-A-A-B+B+B+B+B+B+B+. I changed my mind on this. I think Gyarados still has a niche, but with the defensive set. Offensive set is too easily checked / pressured by Zapdos to be a consistent win condition, but being able to cushion Cinderace and also pose a sweeping threat in a single set is very valuable - especially with rise of Zen Headbutt and Giga Impact Cinderaces that beat Toxapex / Zapdos, respectively.B-. I think Raikou is really struggling in the meta.BBBBBBBBB-B
GreilMercenary9B-CCCA-; the meta getting more definition really gave a chance for top players to re-explore Exca in S13 and it didn't disappointB; the power creep compared to early SwSh is realBB-B-C+A+; Ferro's rise despite losing to the top 2 mons is interesting, see comment on last vote for more explanationA+; the OU-favored version is finally looking better in BSS as well, as Dark typing, stronger priority, and one big hit over three smaller ones have all improved since its releaseA; Worth a shout at least for A+ but I need to see another season of this with good finishes with varied sets before I think it should join the fairly exclusive A+ clubA; This is a very close call, but the rise of Steels in S13, especially the return of Excadrill to a major role, really hurts Nihi. This thing is still really good and very dangerous, but teams have started to adapt to this, and winning the Meteor Beam lottery, while great, also limits its versatility with its best set, which complicates matters for it.A; I'm still sketchy on this being full A+ only because it is a total non-factor offensively, but it is bar none the best stall mon and can fit decently enough on most balance teams as well. This, combined with elite effectiveness at its role, means that A is an easy choice and consideration for A+ is understandable, although like with DNite I need to see a little more for A+A-; A-; Close call since this is an excellent Zapdos check, pairs well with Excadrill, and can still run effective support sets; want to see one more month of results before I vote for A though, especially since it still doesn't like any of Ace, Lando, Mimi, or Fini.A-; It's getting harder and harder to give this enough support to really run through teams; still dangerous but with clear weaknesses, especially in a meta where Rocks are getting better to mess with Zap and AceA-; The Age of Steels is backA-; see Kartana comment lolB+; Obviously the best special wall in the game, but less versatile in what builds it makes sense on compared to Toxapex and also checks less of the top 15 compared to Toxapex as well, although hard walling Zapdos counts for a lotA-; Still a competent breaker but rightfully dropping after new toy syndrome ended and players remembered just how good Dragapult isB+; OK, so it might be the Age of Steels, but Meta struggles a bit to find a place when competing with Exca/Kart/Cele for slotsB+; I'm very relecutant to drop it this far, but Moltres-G might be the biggest loser by proxy of the entire meta shifting to handle Zapdos/AA-JB+; hanging on to the top 40 in usage by a thread in S14 but also has a sketchy matchup spread against the top 20 now, and it's getting a bit harder to be a good generalist like Wash unless you are an insanely, insanely good generalist; not super easy to justify this over other potential mons right now IMOB+; Still better in theory than in practiceB+; very clear strengths and weaknesses to be sure, but how many mons can claim to have good matchups against both Zapdos and Cinderace?B; being super weak to both Zapdos and one of its best checks (Nihi) in this meta sucksBB; see Gyarados commentBBBBBBB-B-B; improvement in super bulky comps in general probably merits a rise here
cant sayB-C+C+stay URA-stay B+BC+B-CA+A+stay Astay A+AAstay AA-stay B+stay B-A-A-A-B+B+B+stay B+BBB-B-staystayB-staystaystaystay
/
 
Some suggestions given the changes above:

:Tapu-Fini: A+ -> S
:landorus-Therian: S -> A+ - I'm putting these two in conjunction since they could go either ways depending on the philosophy of the VR Council. Looking at the S Rank, in my opinion something has to give. Currently Landorus-T looks to be a bit of an outlier, especially at top levels of play. I note here (https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/metagame-observations.3676056/) a bit of the reasoning behind why Landorus-T is seeing less usage at the top level of play compared to its overall play due to the level of competition in this role. Tapu Fini in my mind is as used as much if not more than Landorus-T at all levels of play, as splashable as Landorus-T and is undoubtedly a better Water-type comparative to the field than Landorus-T is a Ground-type. Tapu Fini is the best Urshifu check in the game, amongst the best Dracovish checks in the game and deals well with Cinderace, Landorus-T, Dragapult, Dragonite and Hippowdon. Even the pokemon it does not outright beat, it can often trade well with. Mimikyu is a good example of this. Both trick sets and CM sets are good, with some stalls really struggling to deal with Taunt CM sets as Toxapex is often a primary Tapu Fini check. A good example is the 9/10th ranked team here which really struggles with said set: https://pokepast.es/c8804df30ef909b6. Overall what I'd say is that these two need to be at least in the same tier, I'm leaning towards putting Lando-T down, but putting Tapu Fini up is also an option.

:excadrill: A- -> A - The reasoning for this is said above and I think most would agree its on the line of A-/A, I think it can be reconsidered for next slate if need be.

:Lapras: B+ -> A- - I think in terms of what Lapras provides for the team and its position currently in the Metagame, that A- is more appropriate than B+. It sees reasonable usage at top levels of play, I'd say being just outside of the top 20 pokemon and does similarly in overall usage. One thing that makes Lapras in particular special is its usage of Gigantamax and I think a lot of people, myself included at first, look at Lapras's Gigantamax the wrong way as essentially wasting a Dynamax just to get up screens. The ability to set up Dual Screens and Attack at the same time, especially with the great offensive Ice-typing really does help it out a lot in 1v1s that otherwise would be a bit Sketchy. Take Lapras vs. Dragonite for example and say Lapras switches in on a Dragon Dance from Dragonite with Multiscale intact, they both Dynamax and Lapras goes for Gmax-Resonance which activates Dragonites Weakness Policy. It essentially negates Dragonites WP, which wouldnt be the case if a Porygon2 for example was to go for Max Hailstorm. Another big thing to note about Gmax Resonance is the team support it provides, essentially giving a pseudo-dynamax bulk to the rest of your team after your dynamax ends, which does allow for a lot of sweeping in the back after Dynamax is traded when your team has dual screens and their team does not. It also comes with an overall decentish Zapdos-Vish matchup and can break stall with Sheer Cold whilst also beating Sturdy Skarmory which would otherwise block it. Lapras does have some weaknesses, but I think it honestly brings a lot to the table.

:Magnezone: A- -> B+ - I think this thing has gotten a bit of overhype due to the popping up of Sturdy + Custap Berry sets which reflect in its current rank. In terms of where I think it is at, its hard to say since it is definitely a border case but I think it leans towards B+ atm. In my experience, people are a lot better at playing around Magnezone now that the sets are more established and it really struggles to break through certain fatter pokemon, like Porygon2, Swampert and ironically Ferrothorn and I feel like Magnezone when it cannot trade with pokemon is a liability on your team. The real big thing that holds it back is its lack of coverage and setup. Yes, it can Iron Defence and Body Press but this does not really beat much that it struggles with other than Porygon2. Yes it can AV and Specs also, but in my mind it is definitely the second worst of the steel types that you see pop up, with metagross being the worst. Kartana, Heatran and Excadrill which are in the same tier currently I think are clearly better than Magnezone. I do think Magnezone does have a lot of potential, especially if fairy types rise, but as I see it, its probably going to drop a little further and then stagnate at around the B+ level.

:dracozolt: B- -> B - Dracozolt is honestly pretty underrated on the VR and has seen quite a bit of resurgence in usage at all levels of play. Most of what Dracozolt can do is well known by now, but one aspect that is particularly notable is that it forces people's hand at team preview, similar to its brother Dracovish and is somewhat restrictive in the teambuilding phase. Unlike Dracovish, Dracozolt can utilise Weakness Policy and Flamethrower to help alleviate a lot of its weaknesses and make sure that it still puts in work even in worse matchups. It should also be noted that Dracozolt is a great Zapdos check and preys on standard stall builds. For example, even the top stall from S13 (https://pokepast.es/14626a05d8ff53f2) really struggles with Dracozolt which gets free rein to just click buttons, especially vs. Toxapex and Skarmory though it does have to watch for the latter's Baneful Bunker if not Dynamaxing.

:arcanine: C- -> C+ - Arcanine should probably be a lot higher than it currently is. It's a surprisingly good physical check due to its naturally fast speed for a wall, Intimidate and ability to spread burn to even grounds such as Landorus-T, Excadrill and Hippowdon, essentially making them useless (unless lando has lum) whilst being decent defensively vs. difficult threats to deal with such as Mimikyu, Cinderace and Dragapult. It is especially noteworthy in its ability to check Kartana and Rillaboom. Heavy Duty Boots honestly alleviates a lot of what made it suck in USUM where you could do annoying things like just phase it out over and over again with Hippowdon. I wouldn't be too surprised to see it sneak into B-, but I think C+ is a good place for now.
 
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1_TrickPhony

BSS Circuit Co-host
Some suggestions given the changes above:

:Tapu-Fini: A+ -> S
:landorus-Therian: S -> A+ - I'm putting these two in conjunction since they could go either ways depending on the philosophy of the VR Council. Looking at the S Rank, in my opinion something has to give. Currently Landorus-T looks to be a bit of an outlier, especially at top levels of play. I note here (https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/metagame-observations.3676056/) a bit of the reasoning behind why Landorus-T is seeing less usage at the top level of play compared to its overall play due to the level of competition in this role. Tapu Fini in my mind is as used as much if not more than Landorus-T at all levels of play, as splashable as Landorus-T and is undoubtedly a better Water-type comparative to the field than Landorus-T is a Ground-type. Tapu Fini is the best Urshifu check in the game, amongst the best Dracovish checks in the game and deals well with Cinderace, Landorus-T, Dragapult, Dragonite and Hippowdon. Even the pokemon it does not outright beat, it can often trade well with. Mimikyu is a good example of this. Both trick sets and CM sets are good, with some stalls really struggling to deal with Taunt CM sets as Toxapex is often a primary Tapu Fini check. A good example is the 9/10th ranked team here which really struggles with said set: https://pokepast.es/c8804df30ef909b6. Overall what I'd say is that these two need to be at least in the same tier, I'm leaning towards putting Lando-T down, but putting Tapu Fini up is also an option.

:Lapras: B+ -> A- - I think in terms of what Lapras provides for the team and its position currently in the Metagame, that A- is more appropriate than B+. It sees reasonable usage at top levels of play, I'd say being just outside of the top 20 pokemon and does similarly in overall usage. One thing that makes Lapras in particular special is its usage of Gigantamax and I think a lot of people, myself included at first, look at Lapras's Gigantamax the wrong way as essentially wasting a Dynamax just to get up screens. The ability to set up Dual Screens and Attack at the same time, especially with the great offensive Ice-typing really does help it out a lot in 1v1s that otherwise would be a bit Sketchy. Take Lapras vs. Dragonite for example and say Lapras switches in on a Dragon Dance from Dragonite with Multiscale intact, they both Dynamax and Lapras goes for Gmax-Resonance which activates Dragonites Weakness Policy. It essentially negates Dragonites WP, which wouldnt be the case if a Porygon2 for example was to go for Max Hailstorm. Another big thing to note about Gmax Resonance is the team support it provides, essentially giving a pseudo-dynamax bulk to the rest of your team after your dynamax ends, which does allow for a lot of sweeping in the back after Dynamax is traded when your team has dual screens and their team does not. It also comes with an overall decentish Zapdos-Vish matchup and can break stall with Sheer Cold whilst also beating Sturdy Skarmory which would otherwise block it. Lapras does have some weaknesses, but I think it honestly brings a lot to the table.

:Magnezone: A- -> B+ - I think this thing has gotten a bit of overhype due to the popping up of Sturdy + Custap Berry sets which reflect in its current rank. In terms of where I think it is at, its hard to say since it is definitely a border case but I think it leans towards B+ atm. In my experience, people are a lot better at playing around Magnezone now that the sets are more established and it really struggles to break through certain fatter pokemon, like Porygon2, Swampert and ironically Ferrothorn and I feel like Magnezone when it cannot trade with pokemon is a liability on your team. The real big thing that holds it back is its lack of coverage and setup. Yes, it can Iron Defence and Body Press but this does not really beat much that it struggles with other than Porygon2. I do think Magnezone does have a lot of potential, especially if fairy types rise, but as I see it, its probably going to drop a little further and then stagnate at around the B+ level.

:dracozolt: B- -> B - Dracozolt is honestly pretty underrated on the VR and has seen quite a bit of resurgence in usage at all levels of play. Most of what Dracozolt can do is well known by now, but one aspect that is particularly notable is that it forces people's hand at team preview, similar to its brother Dracovish and is somewhat restrictive in the teambuilding phase. Unlike Dracovish, Dracozolt can utilise Weakness Policy and Flamethrower to help alleviate a lot of its weaknesses and make sure that it still puts in work even in worse matchups. It should also be noted that Dracozolt is a great Zapdos check and preys on standard stall builds. For example, even the top stall from S13 (https://pokepast.es/14626a05d8ff53f2) really struggles with Dracozolt which gets free rein to just click buttons, especially vs. Toxapex and Skarmory though it does have to watch for the latter's Baneful Bunker if not Dynamaxing.

:arcanine: C- -> C+ - Arcanine should probably be a lot higher than it currently is. It's a surprisingly good physical check due to its naturally fast speed for a wall, Intimidate and ability to spread burn to even grounds such as Landorus-T, Excadrill and Hippowdon, essentially making them useless (unless lando has lum) whilst being decent defensively vs. difficult threats to deal with such as Mimikyu, Cinderace and Dragapult. It is especially noteworthy in its ability to check Kartana and Rillaboom. Heavy Duty Boots honestly alleviates a lot of what made it suck in USUM where you could do annoying things like just phase it out over and over again with Hippowdon. I wouldn't be too surprised to see it sneak into B-, but I think C+ is a good place for now.
Im about 50/50 split on all of your nominations, except for Arcanine. The VR council is working on a fix for the C ranks because right now they are completely out of sorts due to the tier shift down. Arcanine will probably end up at least a subrank higher.
 
Im about 50/50 split on all of your nominations, except for Arcanine. The VR council is working on a fix for the C ranks because right now they are completely out of sorts due to the tier shift down. Arcanine will probably end up at least a subrank higher.
On this note, here's my uneducated opinion on the C ranks, done in very short form with no real justification. I bolded stuff in C+ that should probably move straight up to B-, Bolded stuff in C- that could just be scrapped from the list. Some pokemon I have put up a bit since they actually have a use even if it is uncommon/underexplored like Gothitelle and Scolipede, others Ive put down cause they just suck like dragalge. C+ I like to think as this pokemon actually has a niche, even if it is limited, mostly outclassed by a higher tier mon or it only sees use on one particular style and I wouldn't really bat too much of an eyelid if I saw one vs. me. C is kinda inbetween C+ and C- where the niche is even smaller, it has huge glaring weaknesses or its just solidish but theres nothing really going for it. C- is kinda, nearly to the point I'd assume someone was memeing or cheesing if I saw this in battle. I'd say all these mons are outclassed nearly fully by something higher on the list.

C+:

Arcanine
Arctozolt
Charizard
Corsola (Galar)
Gastrodon
Gothitelle
Incineroar
Primarina
Quagsire
Seismitoad
Scizor
Sylveon
Zapdos (Galar)

C:

Articuno (Galar)
Buzzwole
Ditto
Durant
Hydreigon
Kingdra
Marowak (Alola)
Milotic
Moltres
Reuniclus
Stakataka
Scolipede
Volcarona
Uxie


C-:

Amoonguss
Aurorus
Aggron
Avalugg
Azelf
Chandelure
Conkeldurr
Dragalge

Haxorus
Landorus
Lycanroc (Dusk)
Nidoking
Porygon-Z
Type: Null

Overall changes:

Amoonguss C+ -> C-
Ditto C+ -> C
Durant C+ -> C
Kingdra C+ -> C
PorygonZ C+ -> C-
Volcarona C+ -> C

Corsola-G C -> C+
Dragalge C -> C-
Gastrodon C -> C+
Haxorus C -> C-
Incineroar C -> C+
Landorus C -> C-
Scizor C -> C+/B-

Arcanine C- -> C+
Charizard C- -> C+
Milotic C- -> C
Moltres C- -> C
Quagsire C- -> C+
Uxie C- -> C

Potential additions:

Hatterene, Goodra, Pyukumuku
 
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Stakataka rises from UR to C
Buzzwole rises from UR to C
Excadrill rises from B+ to A-
Dragonite rises from A to A+
Nihilego drops from A+ to A
Tyranitar rises from A- to A
Glastrier drops from A to A-
Kartana rises from B+ to A-
Moltres (Galar) drops from A- to B+
Rotom (Wash) drops from A- to B+
Rhyperior rises from B to B+
Raikou drops from B+ to B
Suicune drops from B+ to B
Tapu Koko drops from B+ to B
Tapu Lele drops from B+ to B
Thundurus drops from B+ to B
Skarmory rises from B- to B


I just wanted to point out that the above rises/drops all benefit Drifblim. I've already gone over what Drifblim beats so analyzing changes in other mons standing relative to how Drifblim does seems like all I can do to try to get a formal vote on Drifblim(Not a meme! It's shut down whole teams before.) Of the above only 3 need explanation for why they are a beneficial rise(the drops are all obvious imo,) Stakataka and Rhyperior.

Even w/ type advantage Stakataka is not OHKOing bar a crit Edge. And that only matters in TR when it goes 1st.

252+ Atk Stakataka Rock Slide vs. 236 HP / 252 Def Drifblim: 134-158 (52.5 - 61.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

200+ Atk Rhyperior Rock Slide vs. 236 HP / 252 Def Drifblim: 134-158 (52.5 - 61.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

200 Atk Rhyperior, the set in the calc, does the exact same damage so it is not too dangerous either, and eats a burn 1st. If that misses I'm still fine it sets off Sitrus for future match-ups, so I'm faster than most things, and it gets Strength Sapped until it does low enough damage I can go for the burn again, then finally Hex. The other rises/drops may hurt, except for Snorlax dropping which is neutral, but I think most of the changes help. For now, I'm amending my nomination to C not C+ since Corsola-g dropped half a rank and they're so similar. TTar gets the burn and/or Strength Sap too, though max Atk Stone Edge has a chance to ohko(nothing short of that like Crunch does.)
 
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1_TrickPhony

BSS Circuit Co-host
Stakataka rises from UR to C
Buzzwole rises from UR to C
Excadrill rises from B+ to A-
Dragonite rises from A to A+
Nihilego drops from A+ to A
Tyranitar rises from A- to A
Glastrier drops from A to A-
Kartana rises from B+ to A-
Moltres (Galar) drops from A- to B+
Rotom (Wash) drops from A- to B+
Rhyperior rises from B to B+
Raikou drops from B+ to B
Suicune drops from B+ to B
Tapu Koko drops from B+ to B
Tapu Lele drops from B+ to B
Thundurus drops from B+ to B
Skarmory rises from B- to B


I just wanted to point out that the above rises/drops all benefit Drifblim. I've already gone over what Drifblim beats so analyzing changes in other mons standing relative to how Drifblim does seems like all I can do to try to get a formal vote on Drifblim(Not a meme! It's shut down whole teams before.) Of the above only 3 need explanation for why they are a beneficial rise(the drops are all obvious imo,) Stakataka and Rhyperior.

Even w/ type advantage Stakataka is not OHKOing bar a crit Edge. And that only matters in TR when it goes 1st.

252+ Atk Stakataka Rock Slide vs. 236 HP / 252 Def Drifblim: 134-158 (52.5 - 61.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

200+ Atk Rhyperior Rock Slide vs. 236 HP / 252 Def Drifblim: 134-158 (52.5 - 61.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

200 Atk Rhyperior, the set in the calc, does the exact same damage so it is not too dangerous either, and eats a burn 1st. If that misses I'm still fine it sets off Sitrus for future match-ups, so I'm faster than most things, and it gets Strength Sapped until it does low enough damage I can go for the burn again, then finally Hex. The other rises/drops may hurt, except for Snorlax dropping which is neutral, but I think most of the changes help. For now, I'm amending my nomination to C not C+ since Corsola-g dropped half a rank and they're so similar. TTar gets the burn and/or Strength Sap too, though max Atk Stone Edge has a chance to ohko(nothing short of that like Crunch does.)
Hey, I'm gonna make recommendation that you do not nominate Drifblim until it reaches a usage rate that is actually recorded by Pokemon Home. Just because it could theoretically be okay doesnt matter one bit for us if it doesnt exist in the meta. Maybe you could be on to something? (I personally don't think so but Im willing to be proven wrong), but its non-existent right now and there are plenty of Pokemon even in the top 100 usage that aren't being included in the VR atm, I'd much rather use my time considering those. Thanks for participating, but please dont waste our time with multiple repeated nominations for UR pokes.
 

cant say

twitch.tv/jakecantsay
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Top Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Senior Staff Member Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Even w/ type advantage Stakataka is not OHKOing bar a crit Edge. And that only matters in TR when it goes 1st.

252+ Atk Stakataka Rock Slide vs. 236 HP / 252 Def Drifblim: 134-158 (52.5 - 61.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

200+ Atk Rhyperior Rock Slide vs. 236 HP / 252 Def Drifblim: 134-158 (52.5 - 61.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

200 Atk Rhyperior, the set in the calc...
It took me forever to find what you were talking about. Turns out you’re using the Pikalytics set on their calculator. I double checked your calcs and it looks like you have the Doubles spread-reduction applied to Rock Slide as well.

Not only that, but Rhyperior and Stakataka never even use Rock Slide in BSS. They both use Rock Blast as their default rock move, with Rhyperior sometimes opting for Rock Wrecker on teams that aim to Dynamax it.

Also, Drifblim is a known Wisp/Sap user. Any competent player will know this and not leave their physically attacking Rhyperior/Stakataka in front of Drifblim if Trick Room is not up. If TR is up, they just kill...


252+ Atk Rhyperior Max Rockfall (130 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Drifblim: 294-348 (114.3 - 135.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Stakataka Max Rockfall (130 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Drifblim: 282-332 (109.7 - 129.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO


You also say it only matters when in Trick Room, but you’re talking about two Pokémon that are almost exclusively used in Trick Room...

Over the years you’ve been prone to making bad nominations. I haven’t opted to limit your ability to post here because I thought you might learn and get better, however since you’re doubling down on this Drifblim thing with bad supporting evidence I might have to take action.
 
I wonder whether it would be possible to get some more concrete criteria to what should be classified as being on the VR list and what should not and perhaps that would reduce these nominations as I think you can make a certain case at present for a very large number of pokemon. For what it is worth, based on what is already currently on the list, I do not think that Drifblim is a bad nomination, but that is only because many Pokemon that would be in the C- range are of similar viability in my honest opinion. You could solve this by axing everything that the VR council would class as C-. I also disagree with the reasoning given by Omastar, but I'd rather the arguments focus on the fact that Drifblim is clearly worse/less viable than all the other pokemon in C, which is really where I think the focus should be when rejecting a pokemon for a VR ranking.

I also count six Pokemon on the VR list currently that do not have usage stats available on Pokemon Home due to their lack of usage which could be a good place to start if not going full whacl. I think it might help make sorting out C Tier in general easier since I do think there is a big difference between something like Dragalge, Azelf or Landorus-I and something like Primarina, Quagsire or Seismitoad.
 
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1_TrickPhony

BSS Circuit Co-host
Just a reminder to everyone, as mentioned early in my reply to Ika, the VR council is working on a fix for the C ranks as we speak. The last slate had changes to fix the higher ranks, which I cannot emphasize enough how much more we value getting those right rather than the fringe playable mons at C ranks. But as a result, it messed up a lot of the lower rankings. Thank you for your list above Ika, we will definitely consider the rankings you mentioned.

For now, lets keep the discussion on the C ranks in general to a minimum until after the VR team has implemented our solution to fix C ranks.
 

1_TrickPhony

BSS Circuit Co-host
Hyperlinks have been added to the VR, getting you directly to the Smogon Dex for BSS.

While there is an analysis for all of A- and higher, and some writeups for lower rankings, not all of the sets are up to date; some still reflect our predictions from the earliest part of the Crown Tundra meta. Please excuse the issues that exist with many of the analyses, we will get to fixing them when time permits!
 
So, why exactly is Latias a half tier or so above her brother? I'd have thought Latios' better SpA would be more useful, or at the very least put him in the same tier as Latias. Is the extra Def and Sp. Def that much of a game changer, or is there something else I'm missing?
 

marilli

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So, why exactly is Latias a half tier or so above her brother? I'd have thought Latios' better SpA would be more useful, or at the very least put him in the same tier as Latias. Is the extra Def and Sp. Def that much of a game changer, or is there something else I'm missing?
I made my nominations on January 2nd. At that point, Latias had significantly higher usage than Latios for 2 months, and sets such as Maranga Calm Mind was gaining popularity in order to check Zapdos, as well as Kee Berry and other bulky sets. Basically if you are using Recover and bulk investment, you are mathematically much better off using Latias because of the additional effective base stats on Latias (Latios wastes 10 BST on Attack) So Latios is shoehorned into fully offensive spread not to be outclassed, while Latias still isn't mathematically outclassed with an offensive set because it can still take advantage of its additional bulk on offensive sets with Weakness Policy - you might miss out on specific KOs by using Latias, but the value judgment on whether those KO calcs or the survival calcs are more important don't have a single correct answer. Mystical Fire also is a great coverage move on top of the Special Attack drop, which bolsters defensive sets even further. This in combination with higher usage of Latias on top ranked teams (more than double the usage of Latios) made me nominate Latias for a half tier above Latios.

However, this season is the first season Latios is seeing higher usage than Latias. Is it just a fad and everyone else is copying the Top 10 Latios Rental team? Or did people learn more about the values of specific KOs Latios achieves? I wouldn't be too surprised if Latios and Dracozolt rise to B next slate while Raikou and Thundurus fall to B-.
 

1_TrickPhony

BSS Circuit Co-host
I made my nominations on January 2nd. At that point, Latias had significantly higher usage than Latios for 2 months, and sets such as Maranaga Calm Mind was gaining popularity in order to check Zapdos, as well as Kee Berry and other bulky sets. Basically if you are using Recover and bulk investment, you are mathematically much better off using Latias because of the additional effective base stats on Latias (Latios wastes 10 BST on Attack) So Latios is shoehorned into fully offensive spread not to be outclassed, while Latias still isn't mathematically outclassed with an offensive set because it can still take advantage of its additional bulk on offensive sets with Weakness Policy - you might miss out on specific KOs by using Latias, the value judgment on whether those KO calcs or the survival calcs are more important don't have a single correct answer. Mystical Fire also is a great coverage move on top of the Special Attack drop, which bolstered defensive sets even further. This in combination with higher usage of Latias on top ranked teams (more than double the usage of Latios) made me nominate Latias for a half tier above Latios.

However, this season is the first season Latios is seeing higher usage than Latias. Is it just a fad annd everyone else is copying the Top 10 Latios Rental team? Or did people learn more about the values of specific KOs Latios achieves? I wouldn't be too surprised if Latios and Dracozolt rise to B next slate while Raikou and Thundurus fall to B-.
It should be noted that its less about whether Latios is better than Latias, or vice versa, but rather how they compete in comparison to the other Pokemon that occupy a similar niche. Latias' niche is more in line with Cresselia's as a bulky setup sweeper, whereas Latios competes with Naganadel as the premier Special Sweeper dragon. Latias is only a tiny bit more situational than Cresselia and can do a few things Cress cannot, whereas in previous VR votes, Naganadel was far superior to Latios. This has changed a bit, to where the environment around Naga got a whole lot worse for it, and probably got a bit kinder to Latios. Could Latios go up? Perhaps, but its not something I'm super keen on voting for at the moment.
 

Psynergy

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Hi, it's probably pretty clear at this point but for transparency sake, this VR thread is on hiatus until Series 8 ends. We already know that after Series 8 the meta will return to the ruleset used in Series 7 so this thread will still see use, but for the time being please refer to the Series 8 VR which is currently being managed by 1_TrickPhony. If you still want to make comments about this VR feel free to do so since this meta is technically not dead, but don't expect significant changes until Series 8 is over.

I'm normally pretty good about providing updates on this sort of stuff though so I apologize for leaving this thread in the dark for this long, but I'll try to make sure this thread is back up and running when Series 8 ends. Thanks for being patient about this!

yadon moment or something
 

Psynergy

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Now that Series 8 is over I'm finally bringing this thread back as we return to the usual Battle Stadium metagame in Series 9. There's a few changes I want to highlight but first I want to shoutout 1_TrickPhony for taking charge of running the Viability Rankings for Series 8! I'm not exaggerating when I say it was a huge load off my back those last 3 months and I seriously appreciate the help!

With that said, I'd like to thank 1_TrickPhony again for all his continued help with the VR effort because as of the final Series 8 update he has decided to step down from the VR Council. Thanks again for your contributions, the last 3 months have definitely been a big help!

Moving forward though, I've decided to address the dwindling numbers in our VR Council, since it's not going to be enough with just me coming back to this. As such I'd like to welcome both Breckinridge and zaaya to the VR Council! Both of these are very knowledgeable players who have been around for awhile in our community so look forward to their contributions in the future! Additionally, chemcoop will also continue to contribute after helping fill the void in the VR Council during Series 8, which brings us back up to 8 members. It's not always possible for everyone to be able to contribute votes during VR udpates for one reason or another, so having a large team again will be a great help.

That's all I have to say for now though, obviously this meta is the same as the one we had 3 months ago and hasn't been active in that time, so there's no changes being made at the moment. However, this thread is now back to being the active VR thread so feel free to post any thoughts about this metagame, hopefully we get to keep it for more than 2 months.
 

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