D/P Sub Salac Garchomp

[maddog]

I've been having alot of success with this Garchomp on Shoddy; it makes it on almost all of my teams and it is an extremely deadly sweeper if used correctly. I wrote this set up because I believe that Salac Berry/ Sub should get a little more of a mention than it does currently. So here's the set.

[SET]
name: Sub Salac Sweeper
move 1: Substitute
move 2: Swords Dance
move 3: Dragon Claw
move 4: Fire Fang / Earthquake
item: Salac Berry
nature: Adamant / Jolly
evs: 252 Atk / 6 Def / 252 Spe
ivs: 30 HP

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>With a little help from Sand Veil, Garchomp can make a fast and deadly late game sweeper. Bring this Garchomp in on something it threatens and Substitute on the switch. It would also be helpful to weaken your opponent's bulky Garchomp counter before attempting to set up. Proceed to Swords Dance, reusing Substitute as necessary. On your third Substitute, Salac Berry will activate, giving you the same speed as a Scarfchomp. From there, just use your two attacks to sweep. It should be noted that if your third Substitute happens to survive due to your opponent missing, resist the urge to Swords Dance again. Keeping the last Substitute up will foil an opponent who relies on priority to kill your weakened Garchomp, and allow you to finish off his team.</p>

<p>Fire Fang is listed as the main option on the set for a number of reasons. Dragon / Ground is a great attacking combination, but it falls short on a couple of common switch ins to Garchomp, namely Bronzong and Skarmory. The only Pokemon that resists the Dragon / Fire combination is Heatran, who won't dare switch into Garchomp for fear of Earthquake. Dragon Claw can be used in most situations that call for Earthquake as well. Still, Earthquake is a great option for the dual STAB combination that Garchomp is famous for running, if you have Magnezone to take care of the aforementioned Steels, and the higher base power.</p>

<p>The choice between natures is a matter of choosing what you need to outspeed. Adamant nature will allow you to be as fast as Scarfchomp after Salac Berry and still has a good deal of power after a few Swords Dances. If you use a Jolly Nature, 60 HP / 248 Atk / 200 Spe is a good EV spread to use. It allows you to outspeed a Modest Choice Scarf Gengar, and the HP EVs allow you to make stronger Substitutes. It does come with a 10% drop in power over an Adamant nature, though.</p>

<p>Like most Substitute users, this Garchomp won't enjoy Toxic Spikes on your side of the field. Sandstorm support is almost necessary, as an unfortunate miss by your opponent could spell their demise. As a side note, standard Bronzong, who normally uses 152 Attack EVs with a neutral nature, will not be able to break Garchomp's Sub if Reflect is up.</p>

-----

I will try to weed out the typos I made and the redundancies I probably made in the next couple of days. Does this set warrant its own spot on the analysis?

 

[animenagai]

definitely. it is as good as any of the other garchomp sets imo as long as you have sandstorm. i'm surprised that this set's not already there in the analysis.

 

[JabbaTheGriffin]

I'd just list Salac as a possible item on the Brightpowder set (obviously change the name of the set) and list the benefits of each.

 

[Train Man]

Seconding Jabba. The moveset and EV Spread (minus the Salac Berry) is identical to the BrightChomp already in the analysis. Add in your first paragraph and your mention of why Fire Fang should be used over Earthquake.

Your final paragraph on Rapid Spin and Reflect is kind of useless, imo. Techniaclly there's not really a singe pokemon that wouldn't enjoy "Reflect support" or Rapid Spin. And it's not like this Garchomp really needs a team specialised to help him set up.

Rename it, "SubChomp" or something like that and give mention to the fact that SubChomp like all substitute users should avoid Toxic Spikes as the two don't make a particuarly neat combination.

As for typos,

listed for the duel STAB combination

dual > duel.

Proceed to Swords Dance, refreshing Substitute as necessary

Nitpick but I prefer, "reusing Substitute when necessary."

will frustrate your opponent who relies on Ice Shard Mamoswine or Weavile to revenge kill your Garchomp

I think Ice Shard's too specific as practically all priority moves coming from nearly any pokemon would finish off SubChomp at 25% or less HP. "will frustrate your opponent who is relying on a priority move to revenge kill your weakened Garchomp. "

 

[maddog]

I'd just list Salac as a possible item on the Brightpowder set (obviously change the name of the set) and list the benefits of each.

Maybe, but I feel that they might be different enough to be separate. It would make the analysis for that set a little too long and that might be a tl;dr situation. But really, I'm fine either way it turns out.

Your final paragraph on Rapid Spin and Reflect is kind of useless, imo. Techniaclly there's not really a singe pokemon that wouldn't enjoy "Reflect support" or Rapid Spin. And it's not like this Garchomp really needs a team specialised to help him set up.

Rename it, "SubChomp" or something like that and give mention to the fact that SubChomp like all substitute users should avoid Toxic Spikes as the two don't make a particuarly neat combination.

Well I like all the support (its generally the way I make teams), but it really doesn't need all of that, you're right. I just edited the Rapid Spin section to just include Toxic Spikes. I'll just mention that brief note about Reflect, as opposed to the whole "this would enjoy Reflect support", because you are right, all sweepers would enjoy Reflect Support.

I'm making all other changes now. Thanks everybody.

EDIT: I think a good way to mention this set is a "combination of the Bulky Sweeper and Brightpowder sets", because essentially that is what it is. Would that work better?

 

[Serv]

Bring this Garchomp in on something it will scare away, and use Substitute.

You could rephrase this to something like "Bring this Garchomp in on something it threatens and Substitute on the switch".

Hopefully your opponent switch in something like Vaporeon and not Starmie, as faster Pokemon might ruin this strategy.

Add "will" after "opponent".

so Reflect support is always welcome.

I prefer if this was rephrased to something like "so Reflect is very much welcomed" or something like that.

These are basically just nitpicks, overall it looks pretty good. However I agree with Jabba.

 

[obi]

Even though the change is minor (just an item swap), the Pokemon is played entirely differently. The BrightPowder Garchomp is scouting for a miss, whereas the SalacChomp is using a Substitute as a means to the end of Salac Berry activation.

If I were using this, I would probably rather face Starmie than Vaporeon. Swords Dance Earthquake will not finish off Vaporeon (at least not those EVed to be switching into Garchomp), but it will take on Starmie pretty much always. Substitute as Starmie comes in. Continue using Substitute as it Ice Beams. Your Salac Berry activates at the end, you Swords Dance as it breaks your Sub (or hope for a miss if you have Sand Veil), then OHKO with EQ / Dragon Claw.

 

[umbarsc]

I've used this set on my Wobba-abusing team, and it worked pretty well. However, your set description is a little off when you say that you can set it up on Vaporeon. Sturdy Pokemon like Vaporeon need to be very weakened before they die to one Swords Danced Earthquake.

 

[Forsety]

I honestly don't think this is worth mentioning.

It is practically identical to the bulky Garchomp set except bulky set actually had useful EV spread opposed to a generic 252/252.

Unless using calcs you can justify exactly what max attack can deal with that the bulky set can't then it all becomes unnecessary redundancy that anyone could figure out.

 

[maddog]

Obi, I've always had issues when Starmie comes in, because it is faster. It can break my sub, but they way you play it would work better. Never really thought of it that way. I'll edit the description a little, or just delete that section. Thoughts?

I honestly don't think this is worth mentioning.

It is practically identical to the bulky Garchomp set except bulky set actually had useful EV spread opposed to a generic 252/252.

Unless using calcs you can justify exactly what max attack can deal with that the bulky set can't then it all becomes unnecessary redundancy that anyone could figure out.

The Bulky Garchomp set takes a risk by trying to take a 269 Ice Beam that this verison does not have to deal with. I've played before when they switched in a Starmie that ran way more special attack, and I died in one hit to Ice Beam. Some people use things like Gliscor or Bronzong to beat Chomp, which would love come into the Bulky Sweeper and shut it down. Sub Salac Garchomp is played much differently. On the surface it plays silimar, but when you really look at the stragety it is much different. I can scout for a miss, while Swords Dancing up. The fact I can run 252 Atk EVs is just a bonus. I think you're a little too quick to denounce the set which I win at least half my games with. I tried Bulky Chomp, but this one run alot cleaner and if I get lucky, I can get more SD boosts, and have a Sub up when I sweep.

 

[Forsety]

So be it, but if thats the case I'd just get rid of the EQ part on your set. It gets rid of the slash which I'd prefer not seeing if possible, especially with the CBChomp set further down the page. You say it yourself Fire Fang is more useful, EQ is a pretty obvious option and it is mentioned in comments anyway. Not to mention having Fire Fang/Dragon Claw as a solid suggestion gives the set its own extra character to stand out of the upteen EQ/DC sets there.

 

[maddog]

Sounds good, I'll take out the slash.

 

[JabbaTheGriffin]

Even though the change is minor (just an item swap), the Pokemon is played entirely differently. The BrightPowder Garchomp is scouting for a miss, whereas the SalacChomp is using a Substitute as a means to the end of Salac Berry activation.

I actually disagree. No matter what the item on Subchomp, I think the goal is basically hoping for a miss. The item you use is really dependent on personal preference.

Though to be quite honest I don't think the extra 8% evasion from brightpowder is enough to justify using it over any other item and if it were up to me I would just scrap the brightpowder set and replace it with the SubSalac.

Also: You definitely can't remove EQ as an option. There's no reason to forgo using your strongest attacks in order to cover 2 walls, one of which lacks recovery anyway.

 

[maddog]

I actually disagree. No matter what the item on Subchomp, I think the goal is basically hoping for a miss. The item you use is really dependent on personal preference.

Though to be quite honest I don't think the extra 8% evasion from brightpowder is enough to justify using it over any other item and if it were up to me I would just scrap the brightpowder set and replace it with the SubSalac.

Also: You definitely can't remove EQ as an option. There's no reason to forgo using your strongest attacks in order to cover 2 walls, one of which lacks recovery anyway.

Can I get another opinion on this? Otherwise I think that the set is ready to go up on the SCMS soon.

It's also my 1000th post :)

 

[Colonel M]

Yes, I recommend that Earthquake should be kept on the list. And maybe to remove Brightpowder as well...

Although my opinion doesn't matter a whole lot in this situation, allow me to explain at least why to keep Earthquake. First off, it's a STAB move that works well. Fire Fang is really weak, and you're still only stopped by two Pokemon, both easily stopped by a Magnezone. Heatran on the other hand is something that can't be trapped but still stopped by Bulky Waters. Despite that, Fire Fang will only hit some of the Steels for Super Effective damage while Earthquake will tear through Jirachi and others easier and still gives an option to use when Dragon Claw won't cut it.

In short: Earthquake MUST be kept as an option. And also, not that you have to throw it onto the moveset, but I've used Outrage over Dragon Claw and used Earthquake and used it with much success. Outrage also punishes Hippowdon and Cresselia a lot more than Dragon Claw.

 

[Aldaron]

Heh, I already suggested this in my Peer Edits, but I took those down.

Glad to see this is receiving the proper attentions that it deserves.

 

[maddog]

Yes, I recommend that Earthquake should be kept on the list. And maybe to remove Brightpowder as well...

Although my opinion doesn't matter a whole lot in this situation, allow me to explain at least why to keep Earthquake. First off, it's a STAB move that works well. Fire Fang is really weak, and you're still only stopped by two Pokemon, both easily stopped by a Magnezone. Heatran on the other hand is something that can't be trapped but still stopped by Bulky Waters. Despite that, Fire Fang will only hit some of the Steels for Super Effective damage while Earthquake will tear through Jirachi and others easier and still gives an option to use when Dragon Claw won't cut it.

In short: Earthquake MUST be kept as an option. And also, not that you have to throw it onto the moveset, but I've used Outrage over Dragon Claw and used Earthquake and used it with much success. Outrage also punishes Hippowdon and Cresselia a lot more than Dragon Claw.

I know why to keep Earthquake on lol. It's just that I believe that ulitmately Fire Fang is a better option over it. Which doesn't give me a real reason to leave it off the set, so I'll most likely put it back on. The thing is, when I use this set on Shoddy, people automaticly assume I have EQ (which should probably always be true) so they switch their Bronzong in. While I'm SDing up and waiting to get to that last up, they think they have me walled. But Fire Fang not only lets me break their Zong in horrible ways, but I also have the SDs in to eliminate their Metagross/ Jirachi when they come back it. I set up on the Zong, so gain the ability to kill everything with my two moves.

I actually disagree. No matter what the item on Subchomp, I think the goal is basically hoping for a miss. The item you use is really dependent on personal preference.

Though to be quite honest I don't think the extra 8% evasion from brightpowder is enough to justify using it over any other item and if it were up to me I would just scrap the brightpowder set and replace it with the SubSalac.

Also: You definitely can't remove EQ as an option. There's no reason to forgo using your strongest attacks in order to cover 2 walls, one of which lacks recovery anyway.

The point of the extra evasion (according to analysis0 is to maximise the chance that your opponent will miss, allowing you to get as many SDs as possible and break stall/ slower teams. By making the set only use 3 Subs, I'm really only planning to get 1 SDs, maybe two if I get lucky. With 4 Subs, you are going for that extra chance to just murder Cresseila and Hippo, which my SubSalac set would hope are weakened/ dead.

 

[JabbaTheGriffin]

Well in D/P sub/salac is dead on everything except Garchomp, and I'd wager that's almost 100% due to Sand Veil. I guess it's different ends from the same means, but I still believe at their core they're trying to do the same thing. And I don't believe Brightpowder does it efficiently enough to warrant using it over something like Salac.

 

[Mekkah]

Brightpowder should give you about 13% extra "luck" against a super effective attack if you use Substitute four times against a 100% accurate attack if my calcs are right. Personally I just use Leftovers because that gives me a fifth Substitute as well as more durability in general.

 

[maddog]

Well in D/P sub/salac is dead on everything except Garchomp, and I'd wager that's almost 100% due to Sand Veil. I guess it's different ends from the same means, but I still believe at their core they're trying to do the same thing. And I don't believe Brightpowder does it efficiently enough to warrant using it over something like Salac.

I agree with this. I never really liked Brightpowder chomp (hince Salac), but I don't think I'll get rid of the set or anything. I think I'll just put this up in this form on SCMS soon.

 

[umbarsc]

Bumping this thread with the alternate EVs.

evs: 60 HP / 248 Atk / 200 Spe
nature: Jolly

60 HP EVs makes your HP divisible by 4. I'd prefer to add on the the HP rather than lower it, because it helps against random priority users like Extremespeed Lucario. Jolly with 200 Spe EVs allows you to outspeed Modest ScarfGar after Salac Berry activates, which is more useful than a 10% increase in attack.

I find that this set of EVs works better than the one listed. I'd rather be bulkier and faster than to just max attack, especially when its attack is boosted by Swords Dance and it's meant to be used in the late-game anyways.

 

[maddog]

Thanks for the bump, you reminded me I still have to do this.

Anyway, can you do check if ES will do more than 25% to Chomp?

 

[cim]

Heatran can OHKO Garchomp with Dragon Pulse. Bronzong and Skarmory ... I don't think either has an Ice or Dragon move.

Salac Berry is already an Other Option, I don't see why a whole new set needs to be made just to change the item in the Brightpowder set.

STAB Earthquake is one of Chomp's biggest selling points too...

 

[kd24]

...Because the set works totally different? kind of like how we have CounterStar and SpinStar both in the analysis only though there is one difference between them.

 

[maddog]

I added umbarsc's EV spread because I relized Jolly is a good nature on this thing. I'm going ahead and adding this to the SCMS in a few days, so let me know if there are any changes to make before then. Thanks.