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D/P tiers. (READ 1st and 2nd POST)

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I'm going to open discussion on this. This is only for OU and Ubers at the moment, so stay on topic please.

READ: THIS THREAD IS ONLY FOR DISCUSSION OF THE TRADITIONAL TIERS. DO -NOT- PROVIDE YOUR OWN TIER LISTING IN THIS THREAD. DO NOT DISCUSS THE TIER LISTINGS OF OTHERS. GO MAKE YOUR OWN THREAD WITH A WELL FORMED ARGUMENT.

AND FOR HEAVENS SAKE, SAVE THE EMOTIONAL BULLSHIT FOR TROU DU CUL.

violation is an infraction

The following Pokemon are not up for debate:

* Blissey (OU), and here is why.
 
Oh dear i hope I don't get massacred for asking this. Where exactly does Medicham fall on these charts again? (In particular the new ScarfCham that requires no BP'd speed to deal heavy chunks of damage. (Okay read comments about BL list, agreeing)

Also, on the Manaphy decision, I put my full support behind it, i've been in far too many battles where I had to set up a 3-4 chain of turns/sacrifices against Manaphy to take it down. It's pretty much disgusting if it can get an 8 turn rain from a solid Damp rock user (say, Bronzong with Explosion/Rain Dance)
 
If Tyranitar is placed in the Uber tier, but Blissey up there too.

Only difference is that T-tar can be taken down with one good fighting move, and Blissey... can't be taken down.

Also, why isn't Claydol OU? He hasn't lost anything in the gen jump...
 
I'm only putting my two cents in on three Pokemon for now.

Manaphy: Good call. Unless you have a Sunny Day team or a Sandstreamer, Manaphy ruins you. And even with a streamer, you can't switch him in safely. Giving Manaphy the ability to fully recover in the rain at will and sweep entire teams with a Tail Glow boost they can do almost nothing about, (again, in the rain) Manaphy was asking for Ubers. Besides, with so many Kyogre leads in Ubers and so few Groudon in general, he'd probably like it better up there.

Tyranitar: He should stay OU. Though I would like nothing more then to send one of the Pokemon that nearly centralized our Metagame, it doesn't make sense. He packs a boat load of weaknesses, and was fairly easy to bring down with a solid fighting move, any way. Sure, there's his technical base stat gain, but if it's coming from an outside factor like Sandstorm, though he causes a semi-perminent one, it shouldn't count.

Celebi: Like Tyranitar, I feel like we should send it to Ubers just to pick off another Pokemon that's sent our metagame in to near centrilization, but it's not there yet. Celebi is annoying, and that's the only reason people want him gone. I hate Celebi myself, but I personally feel she doesn't have a chance in hell in Ubers. To me, becoming an Uber when you weren't one in the previous generations is basically just a ban from the OU tier for them. In my opinion, Celebi doesn't deserve that, but I can certainly see why people would.
 
I am going to say


Deoxy LG is not uber,basically anything that is a counter cresselia is a deoxy lg counter.


Deoxy E-should be tested in standard play.


Wobbefett-with shed shell and darks with pursuit,various taunter,wobbeffett should be given a real test in standard play.
 
I'd put Celebi in OU simply because Pursuit fucks him up, simple as that. Pursuit comes from some major threats (Weavile, Metagross, Tyranitar) and it'll hurt him quite a lot. If you ban him I suppose we can all flock to Shaymin and Tangrowth while sorrowing about missing our Calm Mind Baton Passer.

Manaphy in uber is something I agree with without even testing him. Basically, he uses very, very few different moves, and yet the only things that counter it are Thundering Blissey and an extremely defensive Ludicolo. While most ubers are banned because their movepool combined with their stats makes them uncounterable by normal means, Manaphy manages to pull it off with (by comparison) rather average stats and a shallow realistic movepool.

I feel Medicham is a rather inferior version of Heracross now, but he's still capable of putting a major dent here and there. He has the right to be in the Alakazam/Marowak/etc group, along with a bunch of other Pokemon.

Deoxys-L in OU is ridiculous.
 
Pursuit is actually pretty hard to use against Celebi.. Celebi can pretty much always BP away safely from TTar. Weavile cant OHKO Celebi with any attack even with CB, and does less than 50% with Pursuit if Celebi doesnt switch. Add to that Weaviles issues with Stealth Rock, the threat of Energy Balls, and the fact that Celebi can quite easily recover any damage it takes later on..

The biggest blow to Celebi in DP is Skarmory. It wont be worn down by Psychics, and it isnt Magnezone bait thanks to Shed Shell.. Celebi is an example of a poke that didnt improve while everything else around it did..

I will come back shortly with my argument for a more restricted battle style. But I think it will take some writing..

Have a nice day.
 
Something that has been dominating almost every generation till DP is Snorlax. It is not a threat in OU, agreed, but its too powerful for UU.

Smeargle: Should definitely be OU.

I will edit this with more things later.
 
Mekkah said:
Deoxys-L in OU is ridiculous.
Click to expand...

Why is it ? If you were to replace all the cresselia on everyone teams with deoxy would you have to change around current teams to counter deoxy lg probaly not,The same pokes that beat cresse beat deoxy.
 
Mekkah said:
I feel Medicham is a rather inferior version of Heracross now, but he's still capable of putting a major dent here and there. He has the right to be in the Alakazam/Marowak/etc group, along with a bunch of other Pokemon.
Click to expand...

Heracross dreams of doing as much maximum damage Medicham can. With the avent of Focus Sash, it's entirely possible that, given there's no Sandstorm, Medicham can be passed speed and some attack and make him a huge threat. But you're still right. Heracross is a huge problem right of the bat, but Medicham requires some set up.

Deoxys-L in OU is ridiculous.
Click to expand...

Cresselia has a base 120 HP and Defense, and a 130 in Sp. Defense.

Deoxys-L has a base 160 in both defenses, but a mere 50 base HP.

Counting defenses alone, they both reach a 370 base stat total. Why, exactly, does Deoxys-L get stuck in Ubers?
 
Well, to be fair... Cresselia doesn't really do anything. Yeah, it sits there and Sleep Talks, maybe hits you with a sub 200 SpA Ice Beam, whatever. Deoxys-D on the other hand learns Recover, Spikes, Knock Off...
 
Not to mention it has an insane movepool.

Same goes for Deoxys-E. It might not have the power of its attacking counterpart, but its stats are fairly spread out which means and that gets complemented by its movepool nicely. Imo they all should stay Ubers.
 
In terms of defense, Cresselia takes hits better than Deoxys-LG from both ends of the spectrum, plus it has Levitate. But Deoxys-LG has a better form of recovery and a wider movepool. Deoxys-E on the other hand might have great speed, but it has mediocre attack stats and piss poor defenses. I'm not sure to what extent its movepool makes up for it. IMO they both should be tested in OU first.

Tyranitar and Celebi deserve to stay in OU, because frankly, they would die in an instant in Ubers. Tyranitar has a 4x weakness to fighting, and with the advent of Close Combat, it's easier to take down. Celebi may be a little bit irritating to take down, but what the hell would it do in Ubers? It's easy enough to take down with its 7 weaknesses.

Manaphy I'm a little bit unsure of. If its in the rain, it's a beast, but if it's not, it's pretty tame. It can't have Surf/Ice Beam/Grass Knot/Tail Glow/Rest/Rain Dance in the same moveset.
 
Actually Tyranitar might get some use in Ubers. Sandstorm shits on so many in the Uber metagame and considering how almost half of ubers are Psychics are thus weak to Dark. And this also forces people to use less and less fighting attacks. The one thing that made Tyranitar see less use in the uber metagame in Advance was the lack of a physical Stab Dark attack and since it has got that now, it might be a force to reckon with.
 
I agree with the sentiment that if Tyranitar goes, something else should go with it. Maybe not blissey, but perhaps something else to influence the metagame, as a loss of Tyranitar means that something else'll fill the vaccum, making Hippowdown usage go up, and Garchomp useage skyrocket.

I've faced a couple of Celebi's in battle, and i believe that it's 4x Bug Weakness is similar to Heatran's 4x ground weakness, in that they're both powerful, but easy to take down with those attacks.

A question, though.
When competitor is released, will we see a tier shift? Suicune and Raikou are hard to come by, but with Competitor, they'll be ready to stall/rip teams apart. Also, when competitor comes out (never having netbattled) how with strictly NYPC moves go? A Lickilicky with Heal Bell/Wish will be up in usage, as will things like it's Custap Berry Explosion, Tangrowth's with Morning Sun, Snorlax's with Self Destruct, etc?

And again on Tyranitar, if reference to the post above me, i believe Tyranitar in Ubers will do some good in the Uber environment, shitting on Kyorge/swift swim or Groudon/chlorophyll leads alike.
 
Insane movepool,recover,spikes,knock off,taunt,thunder wave.It defends a little better than cresse and is more useful poke.The real argument is this Weavile, T-tar, heracross the best counter are main part of the game and because deoxys has taunt,it will probably never use sleep talk set so, you will be use toxic, wisp and t-wave on thing faster deoxy LG which is a lot stuff. Movepool does not matter(well maybe knock off),Heracross, Weavile,T-tar still kick it around like a rag doll. Because it is name Deoxys it gets lump in with sweeper Deoxy F and Normal.People have negative image of it.

Also think when you are banning stuff you are banning Manaphy, Celebi, Shaymin,Mew,Wobbefett,Deoxy E,and Normal to limbo,because they will get little to no play Ubers.
 
Luck... you've got some crazy ass spelling. Anyway, Shaymin wasn't mentioned anywhere. I doubt it will even make OU, it won't make Ubers. Deoxys-E will probably get some testing...
 
So, this gen Swampert is superior to Suicune and Milotic in a way that it's a tier above, despite Grass Knot and Will-O-Wisp TM?

Oh, and Shaymin MIGHT make it to OU if Celebi is Uberized, right?
 
This is what I would like to suggest..

Uber:
Mewtwo
Mew
Wobbuffet
Lugia
Ho-Oh
Latias
Latios
Kyogre
Groudon
Rayquaza
Deoxys (all forms)
Dialga
Palkia
Giratina
Manaphy
Darkrai
Arceus
Tyranitar
Celebi
Dragonite
Salamence
Metagross
Jirachi
Azelf
Heatran
Cresselia
Zapdos
Raikou
Shaymin
Suicune
Garchomp

Possibly Uber:
Uxie
Mesprit

Ok, I had this idea when I was making arguments against trialing Ubers. Essentially I was looking at the gap in stat totals between ubers and non ubers and using that as the basis for my argument.

If you look pokemon from a purely stats position, you have legendaries with 580 total stats, and then the next highest it Arcanine with 555, Togekiss with 545, then you have 8 pokemon with 540. The difference between the 580 tier and the 540 tier is ~7%. In that space there are 19 pokemon. Ok, but if you start at 540 and then take pokemon within 7% there are 57 pokemon - 3 times as many.

Now of course comes the argument that stats isnt everything. Well no it isnt, but of the pokemon that would have been legal but I am suggesting should be banned, all have awesome typings, excellent move pools, and with the exception of Dragonite, fantastic traits..

I think 6 (possibly 8) legendaries should be allowed: Moltres, Articuno, Registeel, Regirock, Regice and Entei (and possibly Mesprit and Uxie). These would be legal because they are hurt by their movepools, traits or typings..

I have removed half of the Dragon Type pokemon from the game, but really Dragon is an almost broken type.. It has valuable resists, Outrage and Draco Meteor and the fact that they are only resisted by steel is sorta ridiculous really..

In my opinion this would be the most ballanced tierset.. A lot of people have disregarded it mostly because I havent put any real effort into arguing for it..

But of course we come up against AA's problem of trying to maximise two variables: ballance and total number of available pokemon. So I guess in many respects it is a matter of opinion..

[edit] - lol missing Garchomp was an oversight sorry

Have a nice day.
 
Tier list seems fine but i disagree about placing Manaphy in Ubers straight away and Deoxys-E seems debatable. Also i wonder how come Breloom made OU while Gallade made BL. Gallade is easier to bring in and has overall better stats and a better movepool. :/
 
liwi said:
Tyranitar and Celebi deserve to stay in OU, because frankly, they would die in an instant in Ubers. Tyranitar has a 4x weakness to fighting, and with the advent of Close Combat, it's easier to take down. Celebi may be a little bit irritating to take down, but what the hell would it do in Ubers? It's easy enough to take down with its 7 weaknesses.
Click to expand...
When discussing the OU tier useability in Ubers is irrelevant. The Uber tier exists to fit pokemon that would be broken in OU. If this means they never ever see use, then that is unfortunate, but that is how it will be.

[edit] - Regarding BL NU and UU. Please dont discuss these here. When there is no clear idea of what is an OU then discussion of UU is impossible. If there is no discussion of UU then how could we possibly begin to start on NU or BL. I mean, at this point I couldnt tell you for certain that there will be any need for a BL or NU tier.

Luck said:
Insane movepool,recover,spikes,knock off,taunt,thunder wave.It defends a little better than cresse and is more useful poke.The real argument is this Weavile, T-tar, heracross the best counter are main part of the game and because deoxys has taunt,it will probably never use sleep talk set so, you will be use toxic, wisp and t-wave on thing faster deoxy LG which is a lot stuff. Movepool does not matter(well maybe knock off),Heracross, Weavile,T-tar still kick it around like a rag doll. Because it is name Deoxys it gets lump in with sweeper Deoxy F and Normal.People have negative image of it.
Click to expand...
Well Knock Off isnt just a maybe there.. If any of those Pokes switched into a Knock Off they will be royally screwed..

About Deoxys E TBH I think with Taunt and Recover and Pressure it is just too good at stalling pretty much everything..

Have a nice day.
 
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