Deoxys-D Suspect Discussion

Bologo

Have fun with birds and bees.
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Introduction

This is going to be a thread where we determine whether we want to test Deoxys-D or not. Keep in mind that this is not the thread to decide whether or not it is uber, we are only deciding whether or not it is even a suspect.

Suspect?

Let's take a look at Deoxys-D's defensive and support capabilities, as these are arguably the two characteristics for which Deoxys-D is a suspect.

Defensive

Deoxys-D is the odd one out the the bunch in the Deoxys family, giving up the speed of light for incredible defenses of 50/160/160. At first glance, Deoxys-D looks like a better Uxie*, sporting similar defensive capabilities, but with a reliable recovery move.

However, when one looks at the entire picture of Deoxys-D, this isn't entirely true. Deoxys-D trades Uxie's Ground immunity for Pressure. Not only does this leave it vulnerable to Ground attacks, but it also means that Deoxys-D is vulnerable to all entry hazards, including Toxic Spikes which are a huge thorn in its ability to wall.

Note that being a pure Psychic-type in the OU metagame can also be quite hindering to a pokemon's walling potential. OU is a very offensive metagame; U-turn is a commonly used move to keep momentum going on the switch, and Pursuit is very common to rid the field of Ghosts and other Psychics. Shadow Ball is very common as well, with Rotom-A and Gengar being top 10 pokemon. Also, with only 2 resistances, along with the fact that Deoxys-D is vulnerable to every entry hazard, the amount of times it can come in to wall is not as many as it would be if it had a better typing.

Trick is a very common move in this metagame as well, and Tricking a Choice item onto Deoxys-D will ruin its ability to wall, as it will very rarely have room on its moveset to use its own Trick.

*Please note that while people seem to compare Deoxys-D to Cresselia, this is not a valid comparison. Cresselia takes hits much, much better than Deoxys-D (stat-wise). However, when comparing Uxie and Deoxys-D, their defensive capabilities are almost identical, which is why I compared Uxie and Deoxys-D, not Cresselia and Deoxys-D.

Support

As a Stealth Rocker, it can be compared to Uxie again. The big advantages over Uxie are Taunt and Recover, as well as the fact that it can also lay down Spikes. However, Uxie has slightly higher Speed, U-turn, and Yawn to make up for it somewhat. The question here would be whether keeping the momentum or longevity are the more important things for a team supporter.

As a Spiker, it can be compared to Skarmory, who is the only other Spiker in the game to get a reliable recovery move (besides Smeargle obviously). Deoxys-D has about the same physical bulk as Skarmory if it invests heavily in Defense, but at the same time has a lot more special bulk. This theoretically allows Deoxys-D to set up Spikes against a wider base of opponents. However, one must look at Skarmory's much larger amount of resistances as well, and its ability to spread Spikes damage by phazing. With Specially Defensive Skarmory becoming more common, the question of whether Skarmory's resistances or Deoxys-D's natural bulk makes a better Spiker is important.

Also, one must ask the question of whether Deoxys-D will have enough time to set up both Spikes and Stealth Rock. While Deoxys-D does have a reliable recovery move, the previously mentioned Trick can make it very difficult for it to set up both hazards.

In addition, does Deoxys-D further support the team aside from laying down hazards or possibly Dual Screens? This question needs to be asked because unlike Deoxys-S, who was almost guaranteed to set up Stealth Rock and a couple of layers of Spikes, or if he went the dual screening route, was actually guaranteed to get up both screens (for 8 turns), Deoxys-D does not get this guarantee due to the lower Speed. Therefore, because it's not a foolproof supporter like Deoxys-S, it needs to have something else it can do in case its job gets foiled.

What I mean here is that, for example, Forretress can Explode to take out a problematic member of the opponent's team, providing extra support besides walling. Also, Skarmory can phaze the opponent to scout the team, also providing extra support. Uxie can scout with U-turn, and put stuff to sleep (as well as possibly phaze) with Yawn, or use the TrickScarf strategy. Another example is Froslass, who can take out a pokemon with Destiny Bond after setting up her Spikes. What does Deoxys-D do after it sets up entry hazards/dual screens, besides taking hits?

Discuss.
 

Great Sage

Banned deucer.
I remember discussing Deoxys-D as a possible suspect a long, long time ago... Anyways, one of the things that was brought up in those discussions was that Deoxys-D is (was?) a very good user of Knock Off, which at that time was theorized to prove irritating to a lot of its possible counters. That's something else you may want to think about.
 

eric the espeon

maybe I just misunderstood
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Exact numbers for comparing the defensiveness of the bulky Psychics:

Deoxys-D
Max/Max+ special defensiveness: 139840
Max/Max+ physical defensiveness: 139840
Optimal spread physical defensiveness: 120384
Optimal spread special defensiveness: 127072

Uxie
Max/Max+ physical defensiveness: 139476
Max/Max+ special defensiveness: 139476
Optimal spread physical defensiveness: 118944
Optimal spread special defensiveness: 124608

Cresselia
Max/Max+ physical defensiveness: 165168
Max/Max+ special defensiveness: 174936
Optimal spread physical defensiveness: 144744
Optimal spread special defensiveness: 151404

While Max/Max+ spreads for Uxie and Deoxys-D have remarkably similar defensive ability, Deo's base stat spread gives it slightly (1-2%) better defenses when using an optimal spread. You can also clearly see Bologo's claim that as far as raw defenses go Cresselia is not a good comparison to Uxie by any means. Assuming an optimal spread, Cresselia takes ~20% less from each hit on both sides than Deoxys-D.

Something that I think was brought up before was Deoxys-D's brilliant support movepool, Spikes, SR, Knock Off, Trick, Reflect, Light Screen, Taunt, Recover, Thunder Wave, Toxic, Cosmic Power, Calm Mind, Counter, and Mirror Coat stand out. However, it can only fit a very small portion of those into any moveset, and none of them is particularly gamebreaking on the huge number of Pokemon who get each of them (other than Spikes, and Cosmic Power).

It's also worth nothing that all of the top 3 Pokemon in OU can actually set up on Deoxys-D very happily (DDSalamence takes 29.3% - 34.7% from Psychic, but must watch out for the 82.2% - 97.9% from Ice Beam), though they will be annoyed by the loss of items or status moves, and two of them carry powerful STAB SE attacks.
 
I remember discussing Deoxys-D as a possible suspect a long, long time ago... Anyways, one of the things that was brought up in those discussions was that Deoxys-D is (was?) a very good user of Knock Off, which at that time was theorized to prove irritating to a lot of its possible counters. That's something else you may want to think about.
Not...really. Policy Review never really discussed DXS-D. Me and Aldaron had brought it up a really long time ago saying it should be a suspect but it was more or less ignored at the time. There was a small bit of discussion mostly comparing it to Cresselia and it's ability to set up both SR and Spikes but nothing came of it.
 

Great Sage

Banned deucer.
No, I'm referring to way, way back, before Policy Review and the formal suspect process were even established.
 
Deoxys-D looks like it could be a powerful supporter but I do not see anything that would make me assume that it would be brokenly powerful, and certainly not enough reason that it should be banned without testing.
 
The biggest factor that makes a lot of people not want to test Deoxys-D is that it's incredibly versatile in its support options. There are probably at least 4 different support sets that it can run pretty viably. You can stop any one set with relative ease, but the first turn it comes out you probably won't know what to expect (think Mence except worse). So, "if" it turns out that Deoxys-D has a shitload of viable sets, then "I think" it'll probably be very borderline Uber (or just Uber). If it doesn't, I'm quite confident it'll settle down into a niche OU role. It'd be a little pretentious of me to say that I _know_ Deoxys-D is going to end up Uber because it's too unpredictable, that's just my theory. It's probably best to test it because even though I'm not the only one that feels this way, obviously not everybody does.

At the same time, Gen 5 is literally about to be announced. We don't exactly have that much time left. Something to at least consider is waiting until the next gen. maybe thats just me though?
 
Forgive me for saying this, but given how soon Gen 5 is coming out and the effect this and others of the old suspects might have had on each other, wouldn't it be best to just not test this and wait till gen 5?
 

Bologo

Have fun with birds and bees.
is a Contributor Alumnus
While I can't exactly make the decision whether to test Deoxys-D in 4th gen or 5th gen, I will say that we still have a long wait before we can actually do any testing in 5th gen in the first place.

We're inevitably going to have to wait several months for 5th gen to actually come out, especially since the first announcements of it literally just came this month (so it's probably coming out in later 2010). When it does come out, we're also going to be lacking a simulator to play it on for some time, because I can only assume that we'd have to do a ton of research on the game's mechanics before we can even consider programming it. That alone will take several months. Then the matter of actually programming the mechanics along will the possibly 600 pokemon and ridiculous amounts of moves may take another couple of months.

During the time that this is happening, do you guys think everyone's just going to play on wifi? I don't think so, since not only is wifi very time-consuming, but breeding is a pain in the ass. A lot of people who would be waiting to play 5th gen on a simulator are just going to continue playing DPP until we can.

Basically, 5th gen may have been announced, but seriously guys, we're not actually going to be able to play it in shoddybattle-like conditions for a very long time, and therefore won't be able to test any suspects for an even longer time.
 
The biggest factor that makes a lot of people not want to test Deoxys-D is that it's incredibly versatile in its support options. There are probably at least 4 different support sets that it can run pretty viably. You can stop any one set with relative ease, but the first turn it comes out you probably won't know what to expect (think Mence except worse). So, "if" it turns out that Deoxys-D has a shitload of viable sets, then "I think" it'll probably be very borderline Uber (or just Uber). If it doesn't, I'm quite confident it'll settle down into a niche OU role. It'd be a little pretentious of me to say that I _know_ Deoxys-D is going to end up Uber because it's too unpredictable, that's just my theory. It's probably best to test it because even though I'm not the only one that feels this way, obviously not everybody does.
You overrate Deoxys-D a lot. It's basically a Cresselia that lacks Levitate but has Knock Off, Spikes, Recover and SR which at the moment is nothing that impressive. It still has trouble with Scizor, Tyranitar and pretty much every Pokemon in top 10.

Sure it's good but good enough to be Uber? Not nearly. Simply being "unpredictable" should not dictate whether it should be Uber or not.

Also waiting for 5th Gen to test this is pointless as we don't even have an confirmed release date for it and as Bologo has pointed out we will still have to wait for a simulator that can play it. It will be months even after the 5th gen is released before we can play it online.
 

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