Pokémon Ditto

[Muhznit]

I think the people saying "Ditto shouldn't run anything but Choice Scarf" are being incredibly close minded in favor of slight, rather overrated determinism.

I mean yes, Choice Scarf lets you win the speed tie... but it doesn't guarantee the KO. Against bulky enough opponents, the speed is irrelevant and they KO Ditto anyway. Even if you KO your opponent, that gives your opponent opportunity to switch in ANYTHING safely with knowledge of what move you'll be forced to use next. In a worst-case scenario, this is essentially a free turn for the opponent.

I like the Assault vest mentioned earlier; with Ditto you're generally not intending to do any setup stuff anyway; that was your opponent's job, so the Assault vest's detriment is moot. Yeah, there's a 50% chance you'll lose the speed tie, but at the worse case, you just lose Ditto, and personally, I'd rather lose Ditto than let my opponent have a safe set up opportunity.

Another notable option I'd like to point out is Sitrus Berry. I don't generally count on Ditto being able to last four turns to regain the equivalent amount from leftovers, so I lean more towards the chance to turn a 2HKO into a 3HKO.

 

[T-Bolt]

Choice Scarf is pretty much the best item on Ditto.

leftovers, assault vest and other defensive items aren't very good on Ditto because Ditto does not copy the targets HP stat. You're stuck with crappy 48 base HP and even with investment you aren't going to last for long. assault vest may be slightly viable, but I don't think Ditto will survive powerful special attacks even with an assault vest.

Offensive items other than choice scarf aren't going to work because you're risking a speed tie every time you send out ditto, or in other words, 50% of the time, you'll be KOed by a sweeper. 50% of the time, Ditto will be a dead weight.

I mean yes, Choice Scarf lets you win the speed tie... but it doesn't guarantee the KO. Against bulky enough opponents, the speed is irrelevant and they KO Ditto anyway. Even if you KO your opponent, that gives your opponent opportunity to switch in ANYTHING safely with knowledge of what move you'll be forced to use next. In a worst-case scenario, this is essentially a free turn for the opponent.

Ditto should be transforming into sweepers and mega evolutions only. The only real use for imposter ditto is revenge killing, preventing your team from being swept. You switch it in after your opponent kills something, and power isn't an issue because the only pokemon you'll be using ditto against will already be powerful or have boosted themselves.

Yes, Ditto may be giving out a free turn after doing it's job, but a free turn isn't as bad as losing the game. And if your opponent tries to set up on that free turn, simply use ditto again to stop the sweep.

 

[Muhznit]

Choice Scarf is pretty much the best item on Ditto.

leftovers, assault vest and other defensive items aren't very good on Ditto because Ditto does not copy the targets HP stat. You're stuck with crappy 48 base HP and even with investment you aren't going to last for long. assault vest may be slightly viable, but I don't think Ditto will survive powerful special attacks even with an assault vest.

Offensive items other than choice scarf aren't going to work because you're risking a speed tie every time you send out ditto, or in other words, 50% of the time, you'll be KOed by a sweeper. 50% of the time, Ditto will be a dead weight.



Ditto should be transforming into sweepers and mega evolutions only. The only real use for imposter ditto is revenge killing, preventing your team from being swept. You switch it in after your opponent kills something, and power isn't an issue because the only pokemon you'll be using ditto against will already be powerful or have boosted themselves.

Yes, Ditto may be giving out a free turn after doing it's job, but a free turn isn't as bad as losing the game. And if your opponent tries to set up on that free turn, simply use ditto again to stop the sweep.

Yes yes, we've been hearing the same dogma regarding Choice Scarf for ages. I'm pretty certain people believe its the best item to use due to the general bias towards determinism most competitive players have. But if we are to actually discuss Ditto, then the status quo should be set aside for the moment in favor of experimentation, analysis, and consideration of more probabilistic or "risky" options. I mean come on, the only thing that can vary from Ditto to Ditto (while remaining competitively viable) is his item, and that's essentially what any strategy involving Ditto revolves around.

First off, I'd like to state that though that 48 base HP may be "crappy", its still equivalent to an uninvested base 79 HP. If I did the calcuations right, a Mega Gengar's Shadow Ball does 74.9% - 89% against an Assault Vest Ditto, while Ditto is able to KO right back. Considering the only way for Mega Gengar to survive is to outspeed you AND land a crit, as well as the fact you're free to use whatever move after KOing him, I think that merits some further study.

Second, you shouldn't be in a situation where losing Ditto means losing the match. That is, Ditto should never be in a situation where he's your last pokemon. If he is, his efforts in preventing a sweep are rather fruitless. So long as you prevent that situation from occurring by carefully choosing what gets switched in, the loss of Ditto will not explicitly imply a lost match. I believe the only thing Ditto can do reliably is scout, (Revenge killing is not guaranteed if they have a counter for whatever you copied) and he should be treated as such, with revenge killing to be considered a bonus.

 

[Otter Power]

I have been curious about this, but what happens in a speed tie? Is the faster poke just chosen randomly?

On another note, the only reliable set I've managed to run is the choice scarf set. Has anyone considered the Ditto hold item (quick powder or metal powder or something) that raises his speed? Or will it not work once Ditto transforms?

 

[effyouzion]

First off, I'd like to state that though that 48 base HP may be "crappy", its still equivalent to an uninvested base 79 HP. If I did the calcuations right, a Mega Gengar's Shadow Ball does 74.9% - 89% against an Assault Vest Ditto, while Ditto is able to KO right back. Considering the only way for Mega Gengar to survive is to outspeed you AND land a crit, as well as the fact you're free to use whatever move after KOing him, I think that merits some further study.

Why even give the other Gengar that opportunity though? Use choice scarf and you win 100% of the time instead of 95%. I highly doubt that the ability to switch moves to sludge bomb while at 10% health is going to win you more games than being able to keep your full health Ditto by switching out.

 

[Red G]

I have been curious about this, but what happens in a speed tie? Is the faster poke just chosen randomly?

On another note, the only reliable set I've managed to run is the choice scarf set. Has anyone considered the Ditto hold item (quick powder or metal powder or something) that raises his speed? Or will it not work once Ditto transforms?

Yes

Quick Powder/Metal Powder only work when Ditto is not transformed. They are really useless items, honestly, I'm not sure why they don't make them useful in the overworld at least.

 

[Temporaryanonymous]

Choice scarf is good because it guarantees an outspeed unless the opponent is scarfed. With the strength of the mega pokemon that you'll likely be copying, having faster speed can mean the difference between a win or a loss.

However, I do know that Ditto without scarf is also viable. Things like LO, lefties, AV are all decent as well if you're willing to bank on a speed tie. I usually pair ditto up with Klefki in that Klefki can spread para, making Ditto faster after copying, and Klefki can also give swagger boosts that Ditto copies.

 

[alexwolf]

Usable but niche Pokemon. Discussion about it can be continued here: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/old-mon-general-discussion.3490455/