DLC2 Crown Tundra Speculation Thread [SPOILERS]

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Yeah... Only Specially Defensive Jirachi, Bronzong, Aegislash and Celesteela evade the 2HKO, but barely and only Jirachi has recovery. This thing is broken
Just a quick addition that specially defensive Tapu Bulu can switch into any lele set just Fine and take about 35% max and comes with terrain + synthesis. It takes a shitton when its lele vs bulu with psy terrain up tho.
 
Rain is looking really good. The sheer number of options at a rain team's disposal means that most answers will have some sort of answer which can be teched for that specific situation. Articuno and Starmie could prove niche options to blow through Toxapex. Even Fire-types like Moltres and Volcarona have a number of options in rain to ensure a rain-protected Ferrothorn can't reliably keep the rain assault at bay. I think the only thing holding it back is that some of its best abusers like Tapu Koko and Tornadus-T are almost certainly going to Ubers.
 
Rain is looking really good. The sheer number of options at a rain team's disposal means that most answers will have some sort of answer which can be teched for that specific situation. Articuno and Starmie could prove niche options to blow through Toxapex. Even Fire-types like Moltres and Volcarona have a number of options in rain to ensure a rain-protected Ferrothorn can't reliably keep the rain assault at bay. I think the only thing holding it back is that some of its best abusers like Tapu Koko and Tornadus-T are almost certainly going to Ubers.
I wanna note that Zapdos finally got Hurricane, so at long last it's got dual STAB in the rain. I can not for the life of me find any other leaked moves, so I'm unsure about its coverage.
 
I'm really excited to use Mence again. I think it'll carve out a niche. Im thinking


Salamence @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Moxie
Level: 50
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Dual Wingbeat
- Earthquake
- Substitute / Fire Blast
 
Just a quick addition that specially defensive Tapu Bulu can switch into any lele set just Fine and take about 35% max and comes with terrain + synthesis. It takes a shitton when its lele vs bulu with psy terrain up tho.
I made the calcs and got at least 42% from Specs Lele's unboosted Expanding Force, and at least 50% from Moonblast
 
I wanna note that Zapdos finally got Hurricane, so at long last it's got dual STAB in the rain. I can not for the life of me find any other leaked moves, so I'm unsure about its coverage.
LO or boots Static Zapdos with Hurricane / Thunder / U-turn / Roost seems like a total pain in the ass to deal with under Rain. Even Blissey is getting 4HKOed meaning it could be haxed through, or even 3HKOed if it drops to 90%. Rotom H is easily 3HKOed and can't really do much back besides Overheat which is easily Roosted off. Zeraora and Toxtricity are both easily 2HKOed. Even Ferrothorn can take over 70% from Hurricane.

Actually fuck Life Orb, be a real man and run Modest Specs. Raw 2HKO that 252 HP Rotom H from full health. 3HKO that fat bitch Blissey. OHKO Latios.
 
LO or boots Static Zapdos with Hurricane / Thunder / U-turn / Roost seems like a total pain in the ass to deal with under Rain. Even Blissey is getting 4HKOed meaning it could be haxed through, or even 3HKOed if it drops to 90%. Rotom H is easily 3HKOed and can't really do much back besides Overheat which is easily Roosted off. Zeraora and Toxtricity are both easily 2HKOed. Even Ferrothorn can take over 70% from Hurricane.

Actually fuck Life Orb, be a real man and run Modest Specs. Raw 2HKO that 252 HP Rotom H from full health. 3HKO that fat bitch Blissey. OHKO Latios.
Can also run Weather Ball in the Rain, stuffs checks like SpDef Drill, Magnezone, and Rhyperior.

Very little can handle the Weather Ball version defensively outside of SpDef Tyranitar (3HKO'd by Thunder after Rocks still, so you need to run Rest) and...Lanturn (please buff it Gamefreak).
 
Can also run Weather Ball in the Rain, stuffs checks like SpDef Drill, Magnezone, and Rhyperior.

Very little can handle the Weather Ball version defensively outside of SpDef Tyranitar (3HKO'd by Thunder after Rocks still, so you need to run Rest) and...Lanturn (please buff it Gamefreak).
Lol I didn't know it gets Weather Ball. Hahahaha that's excellent. Run Uturn or Volt Switch in the last slot for Tyranitar and... uhh... Lanturn with Uturn.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Zapdos Volt Switch vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 88-105 (21.7 - 25.9%)

0- Atk Zapdos U-turn vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tyranitar: 78-92 (19.3 - 22.7%)

Just go back to Pelipper and click U-turn lol.
 
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Lol I didn't know it gets Weather Ball. Hahahaha that's excellent.

Run Uturn in the last slot for Tyranitar and... uhh... Lanturn.
Well, it'll get Weather Ball assuming the leaks are 100% accurate, which isn't a guarantee.

If Zapdos doesn't get Weather Ball, then there'll be more defensive counterplay but still really limited because Hurricane+Thunder is nasty, and Zapdos can just quickly pivot out as you noted.

Just a quick addition that specially defensive Tapu Bulu can switch into any lele set just Fine and take about 35% max and comes with terrain + synthesis. It takes a shitton when its lele vs bulu with psy terrain up tho.
252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Lele Moonblast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Tapu Bulu: 174-205 (50.7 - 59.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock, Leftovers recovery, and Grassy Terrain recovery

even AV Bulu gets worked by Specs Psyshock (2HKO in Grassy Terrain)
 
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Moltres @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Timid Nature
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 208 HP / 60 Def / 240 Spe
- Substitute
- Roost
- Scorching Sands / Toxic
- Flamethrower

Speed for Drill outside sand. Boots because duh.

Make Heatran cry and Pressure stall it. Toxapex breaks your Sub, but it does under 40% so burn it with hot pocket sand and Pressure stall it some.
 
Swampert: E rank. Ding dong! Here is the first Mon that I consider totally outclassed and therefore unviable in OU. Gastro, Toad, Quagsire and in some very specific Rain teams even Whiscash outclass the poor mudh fish in OU. I don,t see a single reason to run Swampert as a ground type in OU, which honestly is very sad after what it had been since Gen 3.
...What?

- Gastrodon has reliable recovery over Swampert but lacks SR, and has worse physical bulk by a fair bit.
- Seismitoad gets Water Absorb, sure, but has worse overall bulk.
- Quagsire and Seismotoad are nothing alike
- lol whiscash

Swampert has been consistently better than every single one of these Mons at least tierwise, and need I remind you that much of Seismitoad's viability came from being basically the only setter who didn't die to Dracovish. Swampert also has access to other utility such as Roar and Yawn it can use for the fourth move, whereas the other Mons listed are usually stuck to four options only out of necessity.
 
...What?

- Gastrodon has reliable recovery over Swampert but lacks SR, and has worse physical bulk by a fair bit.
- Seismitoad gets Water Absorb, sure, but has worse overall bulk.
- Quagsire and Seismotoad are nothing alike
- lol whiscash

Swampert has been consistently better than every single one of these Mons at least tierwise, and need I remind you that much of Seismitoad's viability came from being basically the only setter who didn't die to Dracovish. Swampert also has access to other utility such as Roar and Yawn it can use for the fourth move, whereas the other Mons listed are usually stuck to four options only out of necessity.
If Dracovish returns to the tier then toad and Gastro are better, no question.

Without Dracovish in OU Gastrodon has great special bulk, water immunity, and recover. There's no comparing them, Gastro is leagues better.

Toad trades a very small amount of bulk for water immunity. If you aren't using toad for water immunity you're probably better off using Hippo.

Quagsire gets Unaware making it a pretty good pick on stall teams, though Unaware Softboiled Clefable might change that.

Whiscash is bad lol I agree here. But besides Whiscash Swampert is arguably worse than anything else. Maybe Swampert will see use over Toad in lower tiers where the lack of water immunity isn't as important but for the most part Swampert was killed by power creep, and killed again when his mega died.
 
I've thought about some of the posts in here and I honestly think the notion that Blaziken could be balanced in this tier is ridiculous. I mean we could certainly give him a fair shake, but it's really going to be a waste of time. I can already envision a Torkoal+Charizard+Venusaur+Blaziken core and while that's complete trash defensively I can't think of a single defensive core that could hold up against that assault. Blaziken can easily destroy Pelipper (if it runs Thunder punch) and Tyranitar while Venusaur makes slim pickings of Hippowdon and even the super niche Alolan Ninetales. Charizard meanwhile can take care of even absurdly bulky shit like Toxapex and Kommo-o.

And Blaziken doesn't even need Sun to excel. It can run alongside dual screens or spikes stacking + knock spam balance and just go to town on the whole metagame.
 
If Dracovish returns to the tier then toad and Gastro are better, no question.

Without Dracovish in OU Gastrodon has great special bulk, water immunity, and recover. There's no comparing them, Gastro is leagues better.

Toad trades a very small amount of bulk for water immunity. If you aren't using toad for water immunity you're probably better off using Hippo.

Quagsire gets Unaware making it a pretty good pick on stall teams, though Unaware Softboiled Clefable might change that.

Whiscash is bad lol I agree here. But besides Whiscash Swampert is arguably worse than anything else. Maybe Swampert will see use over Toad in lower tiers where the lack of water immunity isn't as important but for the most part Swampert was killed by power creep, and killed again when his mega died.
Yeah but Vish isn’t coming back. I mean look at NatDex where not only is it being suspected and from the looks of it right now, banned. No way it’s coming back the meta will never be ready for Vish. Pert has better stats and movepool than all of the other Water-Grounds and the only thing holding it back is abilities in comparison and even then offensive Torrent builds are a real and shockingly solid thing.
 
Good Eeveening again! As promised, here is the second part of Eeveeto Viability Ranking Speculation. If someone did not read the first, here is it: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...n-thread-spoilers.3671228/page-3#post-8613605 .

So, lets get this done!

Galarian Slowking (assuming same Stats of Galarian Bro, but with defensive and ofensive Stats flipped. Assuming Regenerator too): B rank. Regenerator is always good and with defensive Stats to back it up, Slowking is ready to check Clefable, Bulu and with an AV, even Naganadel, if it dares to stay in OU. Now, the typing is not really that good, with common weaknesses to Ground, Dark and Ghost on top of the lack of resistances. Still, it at least is inmune to Toxic and another discouragement to Tspikes. The new exclusive move of Galarian Slowking will certainly be useful in balanced and Stall teams to deal damage and drain PPs at the same time.

Electivire: D rank. Unlike Zeraora, it can do high damage to Lando-T and Chomp with Ice Punch. And that it. Lacks power, lacks speed and lacks bulk, its infinite coverage is the only thing going for it. Just like it was released in DPP, its still very bad.

Magmortar: C- rank. Most of the time, you will want to use Heatran, Rotom-H or Volcarona. However, it has better coverage than all of them, and unlike Electivire, it does have the power to back it up, hence the higher ranking. It gained Scorching Sands, so it does not have to risk a miss anymore or use a physical move in order to hit Heatran.

Uxie: C- rank. No Mega Medicham to check in Volturn Teams anymore hinder its niche there. No recovery sucks for such a bulky Mon. The rest of its support movepool is nice though, having Rocks, TW, Trick, Trick Room and Memento, it just can,t fit all of those at once.

Mesprit: D rank. Probably someone can make it work due to its diverse movepool, but that typing still sucks and almost every thing it does, some other Mon does better.

Azelf: C rank. Suicide lead. Faster than Mew, but that is. Unlike Aero, can surprise someone by using Trick, NP, etc.

Dialga and Palkia: Ubers. They gained Body Press and I hope Dialga gains Steel Beam too.

Heatran: A rank. A good moment to retest Arena Trap. Seriously, fuck this thing, the Meta is better without it. As I can,t convince the council to ban it, we will have to learn to deal it in another gen... Heatran lost Z Moves but gained Scorching Sand to burn even more and Body Press to totally destroy trapped Chansey and Blisseys. Now, why don,t I put it in A+ rank or even S? Well, Zygarde exists and I hope it stays in OU to keep this monster at check. Traditional checks like Gyarados, Chomp, Gastro and rain in general are present in the Tier too, so there is counterplay. Boots are an item that allows some of the checks to switch more easily into Tran, so there is that.

Regigigas: C- rank. Gaining Rest (and Protect and Body Press I guess) is huge for this monster. Its really bulky, so without a fight move it will be quite hard to take down. Can,t wait to try it out with a Restalk set + Body Slam + Knock Off.

Giratina (both formes): Uber. Slower but way better Dragapult. It gained POLTERGEIST to basically murder everything that does not resist it.

Cresselia: C rank. Did it have Stored Power before? Not that it matters, it would still be C rank without it. Unlike Uxie, it has Recovery, even though its only Moonlight. Lunar Dance is an amazing move (that probably was boosted this Gen like Healing Wish) and I can see Cresselia with a nice niche on Sun and TR teams (and why not both?). Can also be a CM sweeper, but Reuniclus usually will be better at that. Lack of Pursuit is another benefit Cress got this gen.

Victini: B+ rank. Look, an actual good Scarfer! As always, Victini has 4948394834 ways to murder all your team and now you can,t Pursuit it after sacking one Mon to V Create. Boots sets will probably be viable too, since Victini despised hazards and chip damage in general. No Megas and Z Moves mean Trick is almost always free. I can see a bright future for one of my favourite Mons to use in OU.

Audino:
C- rank. Regenerator makes everything viable I guess. Has Wish, Knock, Heal Bell, Healing Wish and Trick Room... but 1 resistance and 0 offensive presence.

Carracosta: D rank. A slower but way bulkier Kabutops with Shell Smash, so it will outspeed some things when the Rain ends. Usually you should just stick to the Kanto fossil though.

Archeops:
C rank. I used it last Gen without an item in OU, and it did hit hard. Now, without HP Ice it can,t damage Landorus-T... or can it?
+1 4 SpA Archeops Meteor Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 258-304 (67.5 - 79.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery . It can then use Acrobatics to clean the rest of the opposing team later in the battle. Archeops might have bad bulk and a terrible ability, but it at least has both the offensive Stats and the movepool to be a respectable threat in the hands of experienced players.

Cryogonal: D rank. A faster but frailer on the phisical side Articuno. Well, it does remove hazards and outspeed Chomp, so can,t put it in E.

Tornadus-I: D rank. Despite hitting harder, its almost entirely outclassed by the T variant due to the lower speed and lack of Regenerator. If Tornadus-T is banned, I can see this guy having a niche with NP sets on Rain.

Tornadus-T: S rank, possibly Uber. No, its not for Boots, since in previous Gens Tornadus-T was a very common Knock Off absorber and Pex switch-in. Nasty Plot is the real deal here. With Regenerator and high power moves (Hurricane, Focus Blast and Heat Wave) it can damage the opposing team, tank some moves, switch out and wait its moment to clean. Old sets like AV or just fast pivoting Defoguer are still very viable, giving Tornadus even more versatility. It does have counterplay in the form of Electrics, but only Zapdos and Koko (which might be banned too) have reliable recovery.

Thundurus-I: C rank. As almost every electric, the lack of Hidden Power are very bad news for it. Mixed variants with Defiant are still strong though, and on Rain teams it can use NP + Weatherball to break. Still, Zapdos usually will be the better choice.

Thundurus-T: C rank. Same story here. Trades Speed for actual defensive utility, since the same HP Ice than it can,t use, can,t be used now by other electrics to hit it.

Landorus-I: Uber. Ok, it can,t use HP Ice to kill itself... but no one can use HP Ice to kill it. The rest is the same as in previous gens, nothing changed. It still murders almost all the Meta with its power and huge coverage.

Landorus-T: A+ rank. Lost Z Moves and HP Ice... which means that Lando vs Lando battles are going to be funny. A very good pivoting check in Corviknight appeared to make his life harder. Buzzwole and Tangrowth now don,t fear it, since it won,t be running Fly often. Still, Lando will have a multitude of sets ranging from Defensive Pivot and Scarf to Double Dance and Gravity. Landorus-T will still be one of the best Mons in the Meta, just not as dominating as in last Gen.

Genesect: Uber. I doubted a little about it last Gen, but not this one. The HP Fire loss is a huge improvement for him.

Tyrantrum: B- rank. Band Head Smash will tear appart every team without Rock resists and it has coverage for some of the Rock Resists, meaning the dino will have very few true counters, such as Hippowdon. Now, with that typing switching it into will be hard, hence just B- rank. It gained Close Combat to hit almost all the Steels btw.

Aurorus: C- rank. Hail is love, hail is life. Unfortunately, we have other 3 hail setters to choose from. This one is the only one with Rocks and Thunder Wave though.

Carbink: E rank. Sturdy + TR is the only thing it can do that Diancie can,t. Thats not enough.

Xerneas and Yveltal: Ubers.

Zygarde 100%: Uber too.

Zygarde 10%: C- rank. Higher speed is the only thing it has over the 50% version. Of course, it could rise a little if Zygarde 50% gets banned.

Zygarde 50%: A+ rank. Last Gen I voted it to be banned, but only because I wanted the Meta to change, since I never thought it was broken or unhealthy. There had been too many months without a single Suspect, so I took advantage of the first one that came up. Now, Zygarde lost this Gen the Z Moves, which makes the DD sets (that used Groundium, Steelium and Dragonium Z) much worse. However, HP Ice disappeared too, which makes it easier for Sub Coil sets to boost on walls like Lando and Tangrowth. All in all, I think Zygarde will be a better Mon in SS OU than it was at the time it was banned in SM. Good enough to be banned? I don,t think so. In my opinion, there is enough counterplay both offensively and defensively. Clefable is the most common Mon right now, being a really good check. Slowbro can adapt by using Ice Beam. Hippowdon can use Whirlwind, Tangrowth Grass Knot to break the Sub, Bulu and Boomer are good ground resists in general. Avalugg is better now than in SM due to Boots, gained Icicle Spear too. Buzzwole will be a thing, whether Zygarde is around or not. Dragapult bypasses the Sub thanks to Infiltrator Of course, it can hax its way with Glare... but Togekiss can do the same with Serene Grace and no one wants it banned. So, I think is definetely possible and not very hard to adapt the teambuilding in the Zygarde meta.

Diancie: C rank. Nice chek for dangerous threats such as Volcarona and Galarian Moltres. Has a decent movepool, gaining Mystical Fire, Body Press, Meteor Beam and Misty Explosion this gen. If it had recovery, it could have been a really good Mon, instead of a niche one as it is now.

Volcanion: B rank. Boots are a nice improvement for this big threat. It also gained Body Press, so the pink blob can,t switch as well into it as before. Still hard to fit into teams, but that is why its B rank and not higher.

Tapu Koko: A+ rank, possibly Uber. Rising Voltage made this a huge threat. It also gained CC, Play Rough and Misty Explosion for Screen Sets. Very few Mons can switch into all his moves, however it will still need prediction to actually sweep. Right now I think it will be too much for OU, but I might very well be wrong on this one.

Tapu Lele: Uber. No doubts on this one. 2HKOs literally all the Meta with some move. Didn,t gain Mystical Fire, but doesn,t even need it with Expanding Force being so ridicoulosly strong. Still has coverage for every Steel out there, while all darks die to Moonblast. Skuntank and Drapion are included there, while Alolan Muk won,t be released yet.

Tapu Bulu: A+ rank. I don,t think Play Rough is an improvement, though it will have some use. Grassy Glide and CC however are another story. Bulu will be better than Boomer, but not outclassing it, since our Monkey is faster and has U-Turn, Knock Off and Acrobatics to distinguish from the legend. They can be used together to form Grass SPAM cores, with Boomer being banded and Bulu a SD sweeper.

Tapu Fini:
B rank. Was nerfed due to Defog removing its own Terrain now. Knock Off SPAM hurts it too, though the lack of Megas and Z Moves make Trick easier to use. Flip Turn and Misty Explosion are nice moves it gained, so it can still be used as a Defoguer in Volturn teams, just nos as good as before.

Nihilego: C+ rank. I liked this a Specs user in SM. And probably will still like it, though now its worse due to losing Hidden Power. Can,t OHKO either Lando or Scizor anymore. On the other hand, it still checks flying types and breaks teams without Rock resists, being the best special Rock in the Meta. Meteor Beam can be an option on HO teams.

Buzzwole:
B+ rank. Urshifu, Zygarde, Landorus-T, Kartana, Garchomp, Bulu... it checks so many things with that weird defensive typing. Without Z Moves, breaking Buzzwole becomes way harder this Gen.

Pheromosa: Uber. Nothing changed.

Xurkitree: C+ rank. Lost HP Ice and Z Moves, but due to Teleport being a thing, switching it in becomes easier. Still a very hard to use Mon.

Celesteela: C rank. Defensively its outclassed by Corviknight, besides having Leech Seed. However, that typing its still amazing and it can be used with Band, Specs or Automize offensively. There is still hope for Celesteela.

Kartana:
A rank. Losing Z Moves has been both a curse and a blessing for this Ultra Beast. Granted, it can,t break Zapdos anymore with Z Giga Impact (or even Band Return, which it also lost), but those Band Knock Offs will damage everything harder than in SM. SD and Defog sets will still be viable and Kartana now won,t have to fear random HP Fires from Hippowdon or Ferrothorn, which is a plus.

Guzzlord: D rank. Only avoids the E rank because that HP and Movepool is hard to ignore.

Naganadel: A+ rank, possibly Uber. Clearly worse than last Gen. Can,t break Heatran nearly as easily without Dragonium Z. Are we going to use Heatran in every team to avoid losing to this, though? Its Hydreigon (which is very hard to counter currently) but better and harder to Revenge Kill.

Stakataka: C+ rank. Another Mon that needed Z Moves to succeed in OU. Not everything is lost, though, since it gained both Heat Crash and Body Press, powerful moves that take advantage of its enourmous weight and Defense. I can see it working.

Blacephalon: B+ rank. Like Kartana, losing Z Moves helped it as much as hurted. Now it can cripple switch-ins with Trick. Solarbeam (with Power Herb) and Scorching Sands are notable moves it gained, among with Boots and lack of Pursuit. Checking this clown will be way harder than in SM.

Calyrex: E rank. Almost no information is known, but since Celebi with that typing, decent stats and huge movepool is C-/D rank in my head, this one is unlikely to be better, so it goes to E. Totally deserved rank for such an abomination.

Thats all, hopefully you have enjoyed my Eeveeto Viability Ranking Speculation, the next edition is going to be when DPP remakes come out. Enjoy the meta until then!
 
...What?

- Gastrodon has reliable recovery over Swampert but lacks SR, and has worse physical bulk by a fair bit.
- Seismitoad gets Water Absorb, sure, but has worse overall bulk.
- Quagsire and Seismotoad are nothing alike
- lol whiscash

Swampert has been consistently better than every single one of these Mons at least tierwise, and need I remind you that much of Seismitoad's viability came from being basically the only setter who didn't die to Dracovish. Swampert also has access to other utility such as Roar and Yawn it can use for the fourth move, whereas the other Mons listed are usually stuck to four options only out of necessity.

Mr. Hands already answered you about Gastro, Quag and Seismitoad, so I will just cover Whiscash. In a vacuum, Swampert is certainly a better Mon than Whiscash, I give you that. However, in the context of the current SS OU Meta, I think that I am way more likely to use Whiscash than Swampert (1% is much higher than 0%). This is because Swampert is outclassed as a rocker or a defensive Mon by Seismitoad, Gastro and Quagsire.
As a Curse sweeper, Gastro is still better due to having Recovery and Trick or Water immunity. So, the only way Swampert has to distinguish itself is to be a Band user, at which point I would rather use a Crawdaunt, Azumarill or Lando.
Meanwhile, Whiscash has DD + Rest + Hydration, a niche for Rain teams. Granted, its still a very bad Mon, but at least its a very bad Mon that can do something no other Mon can. Swampert doesn,t reach that level in the OU Meta, though in lower Tiers it will be better than Whiscash.
 
If Dracovish returns to the tier then toad and Gastro are better, no question.

Without Dracovish in OU Gastrodon has great special bulk, water immunity, and recover. There's no comparing them, Gastro is leagues better.

Toad trades a very small amount of bulk for water immunity. If you aren't using toad for water immunity you're probably better off using Hippo.

Quagsire gets Unaware making it a pretty good pick on stall teams, though Unaware Softboiled Clefable might change that.

Whiscash is bad lol I agree here. But besides Whiscash Swampert is arguably worse than anything else. Maybe Swampert will see use over Toad in lower tiers where the lack of water immunity isn't as important but for the most part Swampert was killed by power creep, and killed again when his mega died.
Yeah but Vish isn’t coming back. I mean look at NatDex where not only is it being suspected and from the looks of it right now, banned. No way it’s coming back the meta will never be ready for Vish. Pert has better stats and movepool than all of the other Water-Grounds and the only thing holding it back is abilities in comparison and even then offensive Torrent builds are a real and shockingly solid thing.
If you wanna go offensive, Seismitoad is faster, sightly weaker and has Grass coverage to deal with opposing waters + utility with Knock Off

Tbh I never understood why Swampert was in higher tiers than Seismitoad. Toad is faster and has basically the same stats + Water inmunity (that also recovers some health) + utility in knock off, while also having Stealth Rocks.
 
Uxie: C- rank. No Mega Medicham to check in Volturn Teams anymore hinder its niche there. No recovery sucks for such a bulky Mon. The rest of its support movepool is nice though, having Rocks, TW, Trick, Trick Room and Memento, it just can,t fit all of those at once.
Yeah, I hate it when I can't fit Thunder Wave on my Trick Room setter.
 

Monky25

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Heatran: A rank. A good moment to retest Arena Trap. Seriously, fuck this thing, the Meta is better without it. As I can,t convince the council to ban it, we will have to learn to deal it in another gen... Heatran lost Z Moves but gained Scorching Sand to burn even more and Body Press to totally destroy trapped Chansey and Blisseys. Now, why don,t I put it in A+ rank or even S? Well, Zygarde exists and I hope it stays in OU to keep this monster at check. Traditional checks like Gyarados, Chomp, Gastro and rain in general are present in the Tier too, so there is counterplay. Boots are an item that allows some of the checks to switch more easily into Tran, so there is that.
I seriously hope you aren't actually considering bringing back broken ass arena trap just so you can get rid of Heatran, a mon in which there is plenty counterplay for like rain, chomp, gastro, gyara, and other stuff ill mention if this becomes an issue. Still, you get rid of a broken threat by suspecting the broken threat, not reintroducing broken elements to curb something.
 
Tbh I never understood why Swampert was in higher tiers than Seismitoad. Toad is faster and has basically the same stats + Water inmunity (that also recovers some health) + utility in knock off, while also having Stealth Rocks.
Swampert has about 10% better bulk, Roar, and offenses. I think the speed + Knock Off + water absorb wasn't enough, and when water absorb was required people usually just went for Gastrodon or another Pokemon entirely.

I agree though it has criminally underrated utility but in terms of raw physical tanking Swampert usually did it better.
 
Can we stop talking about Swampert it's going to be completely irrelevant lmfao

Which mon do we think in OU will lose the most viability?
Zeraora, sadly.
This mon is one of the greatest for me. Fastest Pokémon in OU that doens't even need an +Spe nature most of the time, only one weakness, a great pivot, it even got HBD. But once DLC2 drops, this will be no more.

Garchomp and Landorus-T are coming and Zeraora doesn't have HP Ice anymore, and that's a big problem. Not only that, but Koko is coming too, Koko is fast too and now it can spam Rising Voltage or use CB Sets to finally use STAB Play Rough and Close Combat, so it has the potential to outclass Zeraora. The only option he has against these mons is throwing Toxic on them, but that's it.

Zeraora was UU last gen, and it will be there again once the 3 previously mentioned Pokés come very soon.

You were great, Zeraora, but now you will be living a tough life once DLC2 drops.

EDIT: I don't think it will lose "the most" viability, but it's gonna be one of the most victims to lose it's shine.
 

Gross Sweep

Plan Ahead
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I am very excited for the second DLC, as SS OU looks like it's finally going to feel like a modern gen OU with Landorus-T returning to the metagame. On top of a hopefully interesting metagame I'm looking forward to how the OU council handles all of the new releases, since they have a few options with regards to how they handle everything. With all that in mind I'd like to go over some of the returning mons that are expected back in DLC2.


These 5 scream quickban to me. I don't know what the council's plans are going to be when it comes to quickbans outside of the obvious cover legends, but it's something that I think needs to be discussed and publicly outlined before the DLC actually hits. While I would prefer these 5 never see the light of day in the tier initially, and potentially see retests later on that may not be realistic. If the council decides to not go heavy with bans before the meta is played I do think they need a scheduled council vote 1 week into the meta for example to potentially remove unhealthy mons. Personally with the volume of potentially unhealthy mons in this DLC I think a few council votes will be necessary to get a truly great starting point. Be it voting once a week for the first 2-3 weeks of the new meta, with the slate revealed a few days before the actual votes so people can weigh in, or something else. I feel it is very important that the OU council have a clearly communicated plan on how they are going to initially attack the new DLC before it actually arrives.


I think this match up is going to be extremely interesting to watch. Rillaboom was the second most used Pokemon of OU in September, but it will have its niche challenged this DLC with Tapu Bulu returning to the tier. Nat Dex may not be the best measuring stick for how viable these mons will be as we don't have Megas and Z moves, but Tapu Bulu did drop to Natdex UU. Even with a variety of set options and new toys like Play Rough I think the momentum from U-turn and the speed tier 85>75 will be enough to make Rillaboom the preferred option early on.


There has been a lot of talk over whether or not these two would climb into the realm of broken with this new DLC. Even with a nerf to terrain boosts, the addition of terrain boosted moves Rising Voltage and Expanded Force has lead to chatter that these two may end up being to much for the metagame offensively. It's definitely something I'll be keeping an eye on moving forward, as I was initally expecting Lele to take a step back Z-Focus Blast sets removed from its arsenal, and M-Zam not being in the tier to complete psychic spam cores, but maybe this is enough to break it, will have to wait and see. Tapu Koko also losses HP Ice this gen which means it will have to rely more on Dazzling Gleam to hit stuff like Lando-t, along with not having the option to HP Fire a Ferrothorn is another negative. Overall I think these two will do very well in the new meta, but I don't know if they'll be broken. I also say that much more confidently about Koko than Lele when it comes to being not broken.


Zapdos is a cool addition to the meta, as it will now have Heavy Duty Boots making it a much better pivot and Defog user not having to take 25% from rocks. It's another one of those mons that will be annoyed from losing HP Ice to hit stuff like Garchomp and Landorus-T, but I think it will be fine overall. Z moves not being in this meta will be nice for Zapdos as well since it can better check Kartana this generation not worrying about Z-Knock Off or Z-Giga Impact. Though it will have to worry about coming in on a Kartana Knock Off and losing its boots.


Heatran is back, and is looking to tear it up. While Heatran will miss Z moves as it was an amazing abuser it looks ready to take on a meta with to much Clefable and no Gliscor. Also stopping Volcarona in its tracks this generation without HP Ground being a thing will be great for Heatran. I expect Heatran to be a solid rocker and great balance breaker in the new metagame, and will continue to be one of the best mons in the metagame like it was last generation.


I don't know how good Dragonite is actually going to be this generation since it will miss Z-Fly and Z-Outrage a lot, but it's hard to make a post about DLC2 and not bring up Heavy Duty Boots Dragonite. Very similarly to Volcarona it will gain some freedom from the hard hazard control it required in past generations. Dragonite probably wont see the kind of success that Volcarona has seen this generation rocking boots, but there is potential for Dragonite. I am predicting this thing to end up in BL at some point this generation.


Zygarde was banned last generation, and Idk if it will fair that much better this time around. It loses access to some of the many sets it can run like Z-Outrage or Z-Iron Tail, but I don't think it will be enough to contain this monster. Bulky sets will still be a problem, and Band sets have more than enough breaking power. Perhaps a saving grace that will help keep DD sets in check is that it would take 224 speed EVs for Zygarde to outpace Timid Dragapult. I would expect Zygarde to stick around in OU for a bit, but would be surprised if it wasn't given a suspect test in the first 6 months of the DLC.


The final mon I want to talk about is Buzzwole who looks fantastic this generation. Being an amazing check to Urshifu and Zygarde who figure to be two of the top meta threats as DLC2 drops. It's also a pretty good stop to sand checking Excadrill and bulky sets avoiding a 2hko from CB Tyranitar's Stone Edge. Overall Buzzwole has a chance to actually carve out a niche for itself this generation checking a handful of top tier threats. I don't know how good it will be in practice, but it definitely seems like the on paper darling of this DLC that could end up being really good.
 
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After reading all of the updates for the upcoming Pokemon of DLC2, I want to write my personal opinions about all upcoming Pokemon, including even the univable ones.

Nidoqueen: Not really gonna have a niche in OU due to Nidoking's existence, but due to its bulk, it could have a minor niche as a bulkier variant of its male counterpart. Just this, pretty much the same with the 'mon below.

Nidoking: A great answer to ClefPex cores and Corviknight thanks to its raw power, STAB and coverage. Not gonna become a huge threat in OU, but could become a fringe member of the tier, courtesy of its strong matchups against some of the most annoying defensive stalwarts of OU. Most likely a B rank or below is possible.

Jynx: Another Pokemon benefitting from HDB, but still way too frail and kinda slow for OU. Back to the low tiers where it will perform pretty well thanks to its redeeming qualities. Still, it could see some low usage in rain teams.

Omastar: I don't know much for it, but it could become a niche sweeper in rain teams, considering its offensive potential in this kind of teams and could offer something more than Kingdra. Fringe pick at best for me in OU though.

Kabutops: Not really the physical attacker than can fill 100% the void Mega Swampert left, but still a proper physical attacker for rain teams that can compete with the fringe pick Barraskewda. Same with Omastar as a fringe pick.

Aerodactyl: I don't really believe that Aerodactyl can handle OU, but suicide lead sets can do something at least. Unlikely to get a rank in OU.

Articuno: Finally freed from its long suffering from Stealth Rock due to HDB, Articuno can finally work in the higher tiers, although it is most likely to settle in UU. It also got Hurricane, which means it has offensive potential. A niche pick for OU, but it can finally fulfil its potential in the higher tiers after years in obscurity. Still, its typing has still several defensive gaps.

Zapdos: In a similar way to Articuno, it benefits heavily from HDB, and now that it got Hurricane, it can become a force to be reckoned on rain teams at the offensive side. It will obviously continue as a regular OU pick for the rest of Gen 8.

Moltres: Heavily benefitting from HDB, Moltres could finally see real usage in OU and make it for the first time in its existence in the top tier, even as a mid-rank Pokemon. Its typing allows it to deal with a huge amount of threats, most notably Clefable and Heatran. The firebird is finally ready I believe.

Dragonite: The hype is obvious as HDB + Multiscale sounds lethal on paper, as it guarantees a safe setup. Not gonna really become a top tier threat though, but a decent sweeper. Wish it had Brave Bird, since Dual Wingbeat on anything except from Scyther is somewhat underwhelming.

Crobat: I don't see it in OU in any way, it will just go to UU where it belongs. Nothing to say here. At least HDB can help it become a fringe defogger or something.

Raikou: The loss of Hidden Power means Raikou is impossible to make it to OU. Most likely to go to UU instantly, but Scald seems nice however.

Entei: Yet another winner from HDB, it can do something with Sacred Fire and Extreme Speed, but unlikely to make it to OU.

Suicune: I don't know if it can make it to OU due to Toxapex outclassing it in various ways, but its trademark Calm Mind set could see some usage on various teams.

Lugia: Lol, you think The Wall should be even allowed here? Especially with HDB + Multiscale?

Ho-OH: Same with Lugia, Regenerator abuse with HDB and Sacred Fire are too ludicrous.

Sceptile: Still underwhelming for me in OU and even UU, most likely gonna settle in RU. Nothing to say here.

Blaziken: I don't know if Blaziken deserves a chance in OU after being broken for 3 succesive generations. It still feels somewhat broken.

Swampert: I saw the debate above for it, but what I am going to say is that it is indeed unlikely to become an OU Pokemon, but could somewhat compete with Gastrodon and Seismitoad. Most likely going in UU.

Aggron: Still miles away from touching OU, those 4x weaknesses are too glaring for its pros of its mighty STAB Head Smash.

Altaria: No Megas mean that Altaria is back into being the most underwhelming Dragon-type in the game.

Cradily: Not even close to OU, outclassed by lots of Pokemon

Armaldo: Not even close. Luckily it can go well in Monotype, however.

Absol: Another case of too slow, too frail for the high tiers. Likely for low tier success, maybe in NU.

Walrein: Unviable by all means since BW.

Relicanth: A worse Aggron in every way.

Salamence: Another Dragon/Flying receiving hype thanks to HDB and Dual Wingbeat, but it is still out of favour in OU. Unfortunately, this is a sad case for the former ADV titan as it is almost sure that will be stuck in UUBL with a C- rank at best in OU for a third succesive generation. I always liked this Pokemon, but it is just severely outclassed by other Dragons, especially Dragapult.

Metagross: Unlikely to stay in OU, but UU could be its home due to its great attributes. Knock Off being super common and its obvious 4MSS are still its obvious flaws.

Regirock: Still too underwelming for a wall in OU.

Regice: It is lucky with HDB's existence, but no recovery, no Body Press and an awful typing mean Regice will never return to OU.

Registeel: Still the best from the original Regis, and it gets Body Press, which means it can finally have some offensive presence. It would only fit on dedicated stall teams in OU as a fringe pick and could shine in UU as a proper check to various threats of that tier.

Latias: It received the same buffs with Latios in getting Mystical Fire and Aura Sphere, but as the offensively weaker of the duo, it would be somewhat outclassed by Latios, but could find a good niche in OU.

Latios: With the same movepool updates but more power and the removal of Pursuit, Latios is back with a vengeance in OU and could easily become one of the most powerful wallbreakers of OU, bringing BW flashbacks with it. A serious threat of the DLC2 metagame in my opinion and a potential A-ranker.

Kyogre: No Primals mean that the old King of Ubers is back. Not in OU obviously, potentially dismantling everything in is sight alongside Dracovish in Ubers.

Groudon: Not in OU as well, but no Primals mean that Groudon is dethroned in Ubers as the King by its archnemesis.

Rayquaza: Same with the two above, still being Rayquaza.

Spiritomb: Not the replacement for Mega Sableye. The lower tiers however could be once again its main territory.

Garchomp: The removal of Z-moves is a negative, but no Hidden Power means less trouble with various threats. The landshark will continue its reign in OU as usual, expected to be a top tier threat.

Electivire: Freddy Adu of the Pokemon competitive scene, it will never fulfil what was supposed to be its enormous potential with its ludicorus coverage due to its obvious flaws. Not even close in OU.

Magmortar: Obviously outclassed by Heatran and Blacephalon, but it can easily settle in the lower tiers, maybe RU or NU.

Uxie: Possibly a fringe pick in Trick Room teams, it could see a low rank and a niche in OU thanks to TR.

Mesprit: Still a really underwhelming Psychic-type. Not even close to OU or the middle tiers.

Azelf: It still has its classic suicide lead sets with the surprise factor, and my personal favourite suicide lead, but it is very frail compared to Mew. Most likely to settle again in UU like USUM.

Dialga; Another obvious Uber here, nothing more to say.

Palkia: Same with Dialga, but back to its old BW antics.

Giratina: Same with the two above.

Heatran: The best Fire-type in the history of OU is back again and ready to do its best like in USUM, from stallbreaking to setting hazards and status. No Z-moves mean its wallbreaking capabilities are hindered to a degree, but it is still a top tier threat upcoming.

Regigigas: Even with Protect, the fact that it still has the worst ability in the game means that OU is lightyears away.

Cresselia: Most likely to get the Trick Room niche in a better way than Uxie due to its better bulk and sem-reliable recovery. Pretty much a fringe pick.

Victini: This Pokemon is becoming better in each generation due to the changes occuring. Now with HDB and no Pursuit, Victini can spam more safely V-Create and who knows, it can become more versatile, fulfiling roles like a pivot and even a mixed attacker. One of the most exciting Pokemon of the DLC2.

Audino: Still an undrwhelming bulky Normal type, it will settle in the low tiers.

Carracosta: Pretty much a worse Omastar but bulkier.

Archeops: If it wasn't for its awful ability, it could have been its breakout generation. A really sad case of unfulfiled potential.

Cryogonal: HDB will allow it to become a better Spinner, but not in OU, maybe NU.

Tornadus-I: Nasty Plot is a nice addition to its great movepool, most likely to become a serious UU threat.

Tornadus-T: What can I say? Seriously a banworthy threat that not only it can survive for lots of turns with HDB + Regenerator, but can also hit even harder with Nasty Plot.

Thundurus-I: The loss of Hidden Power means that it is impossible that it will return to its glory days.

Thundurus-T: Most likely to stay a UUBL knight for another generation, its flaws are still obvious, especially with no Hidden Power.

Landorus-I: Still feels too powerful for OU, most likely to be banned quickly.

Part 2 coming tomorrow.
 
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