DLC2 Crown Tundra Speculation Thread [SPOILERS]

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe both of these mons get dual wingbeat, which is a good neutral hit vs fairy types. +1/+2 earthquake from either of these guys can often miss KOs, which will stop their sweeps, but having an effective secondary stab is really good. I don't know if they'll be good or not, but one of the things that hindered these mons in previous generations was their reliance on coverage to hit anything that resists/is immune to dragon, so having a secondary stab is pretty big.
Seconding this. Moxiemence just picked up a new tool to make it even more explosive if it gets a kill, and with Boots Dragonite can easily EV to live something like Modest Specs Dragapult's Draco Meteor and get regular guaranteed boosts.

Dragonite @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Adamant Nature
Ability: Multiscale
EVs: 84 HP / 184 Atk / 240 Spe
- Dragon Dance
- Dual Wingbeat
- Earthquake
- Dragon Claw / Roost / Extreme Speed

252+ SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 84 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 291-343 (84.5 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Soft-Boiled Unaware Clefable absolutely dunks on you, though.
 

Martin

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For the record, my Koko thing is half a clickbaity meme—the description is certainly sorta hyperbolic. Rising Voltage is still really crazy versus anything that it hits for neutral damage, and it is still backed up by base 130 Speed. Tapu Koko is still a good Pokemon and is very threatening versus heavy offense due to its Speed stat and nuclear STAB. The main reason why I think it's not quite as good as the other Electric-types is that it can no longer play the non-committal game that it used to be able to play. Beyond functioning as coverage, Hidden Power effectively reduced the risk attached to Koko's other buttons—it could go fully physical and still pose a threat versus Landorus-T, it could forgo Hidden Power altogether and still force its opponent to play a safe, low-momentum game due to the unknown that it presents versus Ferrothorn, Garchomp, and Lando-T, and it could forgo a boosting item without sacrificing the ability to deal upwards of 67% to max HP Lando.

Now it needs to make a number of tricky choices in the teambuilder, all of which require a commitment to be made in-game. Close Combat needs investment to pose any real threat versus Ferrothorn, but reducing investment to deal with it sacrifices the ability to threaten bulky Lando-T (<-- this is a BIIIIG problem, because bulky Lando-T punishes people on the back foot harder than arguably any other Pokemon in the game, only really competing with Toxapex and Clefable). Its primary STAB is resisted by Grass (a common defensive type), terrain-dependent (i.e. screwed by Bulu/Rilla) and ignored completely by Ground-types (top 3 type in the game), meaning that clicking it is a commitment that your opponent won't go to something that punishes it, and even if that Electric-type move is Volt Switch you're still playing a game with Ground-types that can just block and punish.

Now compare this to the two Electric-types I placed higher: Zapdos and Raikou. Raikou gained access to Scald, which allows it to pressure and force progress versus Lando, Garchomp, Hippo, Bulu, Rilla, Ferrothorn, Tyranitar, Excadrill, and Dragapult without needing to make any guesses or take any risks. There is pretty much no trade-off in the builder, and Raikou is still faster than Latios+pressures it with Shadow Ball, can catch Dragapult switch-ins harder than Scald with Shadow Ball, and has access to Aura Sphere to pose as a more immediate threat to Ferrothorn without trading off firepower like Koko does. Zapdos is more commital than Raikou in an offensive role due Hurricane being Hurricane and is noticably slower (below the Latios and Garchomp benchmarks), but it makes up for that that with its good bulk, broader utility, access to U-turn (as opposed to the more committal Volt Switch), near-universal 2–3 move coverage, and tradeless Roost—Koko needs to trade an important option away if it wants to carry Roost (forced/telegraphed Roosts with LO, threat vs Lando without LO, locked Roost with Specs), which makes it more prone to option selects.

In a game where the most consistent way to win is to reduce the risk to yourself while maximising the risk to your opponent, having the option to play "perfect" Pokemon (coining that as a nod to Korean-style "perfect" Tekken) is very important, even if you don't opt to use it in all (or even most) games, and Koko can't really do that. Offensive (namely NP) Thundurus also has a similar problem, but it at least has the option to act as anti-Pult speed control with Prank Wave or to play a lower-risk, utility-focussed role with Knock Off+Prank Wave, and while Koko is the most threatening to heavy offense out of all the Electrics, it's still worth noting that it plays a "middle ground" role between Raikou's firepower and Zera's speed, which is notable because unlike Zera it can't force out unboosted Pult at low health (although it'll still be better than Zera despite the latter's access to a zero-commitment option in Knock simply because it has one move that can deal 50% to Lando).

I can't really overstate how good I think Raikou is now. It couldn't really use Hidden Power to reduce commitment like Koko could in the past due to its previously sorta awkward coverage (literally just Jolteon coverage plus Extrasensory lol) and it gained a move that kinda functions as a less commital Hidden Power. Its options are just a lot better now—its coverage is more versatile and customisable (thank fuck nature locks are no longer a thing, and thank god for Scald), it gained a useful utility move, and it can just play a very low-commitment game, which is extremely valuable as an Electric-type. There are a lot of very good Electrics in this format, so I'm excited to see how their popularity plays out. I may be totally wrong about Koko and it may be lower risk in practice than it is on paper. But right now, in the pre-release phase, I'm not as optimistic as most other people are.
 
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I think the craziest thing to think about is the fact that there will be combined abilities (Calyrex’s Unnerve + the horses’ when Calyrex mounts them) I briefly touch on why in this video
but will further expound here:
1. Opens the door for the mechanic to be expanded upon in the future
2. Broadens the entire nature of the game mathematically
3. Adds an entirely new type of interaction (like Megas), 2-for-1, etc.
Overall this is something not really seen before. Perhaps it will be treated like Fusion and not just a 1+1=1 situation, with some additional attributes being included. It has me not just hopeful but quite excited to see where this goes.
 

Martin

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While I'm still ITT, dropping these here because they sound incredibly based and gamer:

:bw/landorus-therian:
Landorus-Therian (M) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 112 Def / 144 Spe
Impish Nature
- Earthquake
- Stealth Rock
- U-turn
- Knock Off
Placeholder EVs pending meta trends/whatever Lando needs to check defensively. This is pretty much just a direct improvement over non-Protect Lefties Lando, and it makes it quite a bit safer to just spam U-turn all game. Obviously Rocky Helmet is still a very solid option, and Leftovers probably still fills some niche over HDB (particularly if you carry Protect), but the fact defensive Lando actually fucking gained something still blows my mind. I love this Pokemon so much lol—where have you been for the past 12 months?

:bw/latios:
Latios (M) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Psychic / Psyshock
- Trick
- Aura Sphere / Mysical Fire / Thunderbolt
Yeah…

:bw/latias:
Latias (F) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor / Psychic
- Mystical Fire / Aura Sphere / Psychic
- Healing Wish
- Trick

Latias (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Roost
- Ice Beam / Stored Power
- Thunderbolt / Aura Sphere

Latias (F) @ Life Orb / Leftovers / Colbur Berry
Ability: Levitate
EVs: idk lol there are like 6 billion spreads for this mon
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor / Psychic
- Psychic / Aura Sphere / Mystical Fire
- Healing Wish / Defog / Mystical Fire
- Defog / Aura Sphere / Mystical Fire
These could all potentially be cool. I was a big Latias proponent back in gen 6 and I stand by my guns. This mon is versatile and, despite what a lot of people will say, is not directly outclassed by Latios without Healing Wish. Its stat spread is really fucking good for a defensive or utility mon lol.

:bw/dragonite:
Dragonite @ Heavy Duty Boots
Ability: Multiscale
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Outrage
- Extreme Speed
- Earthquake / Fire Punch

Dragonite @ Heavy Duty Boots
Ability: Multiscale
EVs: Bulky + speed benchmark
Uuuuuh Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Roost
- Extreme Speed
- Earthquake / Fire Punch

Dragonite @ Leftovers
Ability: Multiscale
EVs: smth bulky that hits a good Speed benchmark
uuuuuuhhhh Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Substitute
- Roost
- Fly

Dragonite @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Multiscale
EVs: 252 HP / I don't fucking know lol
[lol] Nature
- Roost
- Thunder Wave
- Dragon Tail
- Substitute / Flamethrower
Just spitballing a bit with Dragonite. DD sets are the things I expect to prevail as per usual, but really DNite's just a much more dangerous Pokemon with its Multiscale protected like this. I can't overstate how disgustingly fat this thing is lol. Oh and I've also put FlyNite in there bc I like FlyNite.

:bw/nidoqueen:
Nidoqueen (F) @ Black Sludge
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 HP / 164 Def / 80 SpD / 12 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Earth Power
- Sludge Wave
- Ice Beam
So remember how I said I wasn't sure how the Nidos'd look in this meta? Well, if Tapu Koko ends up being popular (it likely will, even if I'll probably use other stuff more) then this might have a niche as a fat Ground-type that doesn't really give a flying fuck about any of its buttons. Basically the peak Koko option select lol. The listed EVs allow it to take a +2 Hurricane from HDB Tornadus-T, which also lets it tank a +2 Overheat from Rotom-H while avoiding the 2HKO from 0 SpA LO Clef's Ice Beam, and the Speed EVs put it one point above uninvested Heatran. I realised that Koko gets completely walled no matter what EV spread I gave it, so I just looked down the list of Funny Pokemon and tried to find smth I could invest for. Its stats are still pretty awful and it faces heavy competition from Lando, Pex, Amoonguss, and quite a lot of other stuff, but it has enough of a unique combination of traits to make me think there might be something there.

:bw/Nidoking:
Nidoking (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Earth Power
- Sludge Wave
- Ice Beam
- Flamethrower / Superpower
This 'mon also doesn't really care about Koko unless it has Brave Bird or whatever. Obviously less comfortable than Queen but like… this is an attacker while Queen is a tank lol. Really brutal coverage in general. Likely UU again, and still has that awkward thing of needing to choose between Flying-/Steel-types and blobs, and carries more risk than something like Latios or Hydreigon or whatever thanks to its sorta shit stats (esp. Speed), but it still hits like a truck regardless. Won't be viable if Naganadel somehow stays legal, but that also applies to, like, almost every glass canon in the game lol.

EDIT 1: Forgot about this thing:
:bw/garchomp:
Garchomp @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 252 HP / 100 Def / 156 Spe
Impish Nature
- Earthquake
- Stealth Rock
- Dragon Tail
- Toxic / Endure
TankChomp guarantees at least two turns of chip vs Urshifu at full health (3 if it carries Endure) and is a Rocker with a good matchup vs Heatran, Rotom-H, etc. Basically just does Garchomp stuff again lol.

EDIT 2: Also re: ppl talking about Dual Wingbeat, I think it's a very underwhelming move and I'm not sure how likely it is that DNite/etc. will use it. These 'mons *really* like the firepower that Outrage provides and I don't think Dual Wingbeat offers much in the way of useful coverage to justify its extremely low BP—not to mention double chip vs Rocky Helmet, Iron Barbs, and Rough Skin
 
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Finchinator

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WOW. WOW. WOW. WOW. WOW. THIS IS GONNA BE SOOOOO SICK. Thanks Finch!
Think that's cool? Check this out:

Hey guys, I decided to make a brief draft of what the roles in the new metagame may look like. I am aware the sprites do not match perfectly and I also want to give massive credit to TPP for the format I stole. I also know it is not absolutely perfect, but it's a WIP that can help with teambuilding once things come out later this week! Do note that I excluded things I did not view as viable such as Articuno not being listed under Defog or Spiritomb not being listed under Nasty Plot sweepers, but obviously the new metagame will prove many things to be viable or unviable that we may not have been able to predict beforehand. This is not me trying to convince everyone to see things my way, but rather a rough list to try to help everyone integrate their ideas onto teams. I hope you all enjoy.

---

The purpose of this is to provide a visual list organized by roles to see what Pokémon do what. This will help new and experienced players alike in finding Pokémon that fit their teams when looking for specific roles. Each Pokemon that is here is viable in the OU metagame, and as such, it will change as the viability rankings get updated. If you feel there is a Pokemon viable for the roles mentioned below and it hasn't been added to the group, then recommend it in your post with solid explanations. The order of roles will be organized in the following way:
  1. Utility (hazard setters and removers)
  2. Offensive roles (wallbreakers, choice item users, and setup sweepers)
  3. Defensive roles (walls and pivots)
  4. Weather (rain and sand)
Note: No Galar Legendary Birds...yet ;)

Here is a list of likely viable Pokemon in the new metagame and their roles. This can be used as a resource if you guys are trying to build once everything is released; this list is not perfect, but it should help a lot when everything is so hectic. Shoutout TPP for the format

1. Utility

Entry Hazards:
Stealth Rock: :Clefable::Blissey::Mew::Tyranitar::Torkoal::Jirachi::Hippowdon::Rhyperior::Mamoswine::Excadrill::Ferrothorn::Kommo-O::Terrakion:
NEW: :Nidoqueen::Metagross::Garchomp::Heatran::Landorus::Landorus-Therian::Azelf::Uxie:
Spikes: :Mew::Skarmory::Ferrothorn:
NEW: :Naganadel:
Toxic Spikes: :Mew::Toxapex:
NEW: :Naganadel::Nidoqueen:
Sticky Web:


Hazard Control:
Rapid Spin: :Torkoal::Excadrill:
NEW: :Pheromosa:
Defog:

NEW: :Zapdos::Moltres::Dragonite::Salamence::Latios::Latias::Tornadus-Therian::Tapu Koko::Tapu Fini::Kartana::Landorus-Therian:
Magic Bounce:


Clerics and Wish:
Wish:

NEW: :Latias:
Heal Bell:

NEW: :Dragonite::Uxie:
Healing Wish:

NEW: :Latias::Cresselia:

Other:
Knock Off:

NEW: :Blaziken::Landorus::Landorus-Therian::Tornadus-Therian::Kartana:
Switcheroo:

Trick:

NEW: :Latios::Latias::Metagross::Victini::Uxie::Tapu Fini::Blacephalon:

2. Offensive Roles

Wallbreakers:
Physical:
:Kyurem-Black::Cinderace::Melmetal:
(Single-Strike)
(Rapid-Strike)
NEW: :Entei::Blaziken::Salamence::Dragonite::Metagross::Garchomp::Victini::Landorus-Therian::Zygarde::Genesect::Tapu Bulu::Buzzwole::Pheromosa::Kartana::Stakataka:
Special:

NEW: :Nidoking::Zapdos::Moltres::Suicune::Raikou::Latias::Latios::Heatran::Tornadus-Therian::Thundurus::Thundurus-Therian::Landorus::Genesect::Tapu Koko::Tapu Lele::Tapu Fini:::Xurkitree::Naganadel::Blacephalon::Cinderace:
Mixed:
:Kyurem-Black:
NEW: :Blaziken::Dragonite::Salamence::Garchomp::Victini::Landorus::Tornadus-Therian::Tapu Koko::Genesect::Celesteela:

Choice Item Users:
Choice Band:
(Single-Strike)
(Rapid-Strike):Melmetal:
NEW: :Metagross::Zygarde::Garchomp::Tapu Bulu::Genesect::Kartana::Pheromosa::Victini:
Choice Specs:
:Cinderace:
NEW: :Latios::Tapu Lele::Blacephalon:
Choice Scarf:

NEW: :Latias::Latios::Genesect::Garchomp::Victini::Landorus-Therian::Tapu Lele::Kartana:

Setup Sweepers:
Belly Drum:

Bulk Up:
(Single-Strike):Cinderace:
NEW: :Tapu Bulu::Buzzwole:
Calm Mind:
:Magearna:
NEW: :Suicune::Raikou::Latias::Latios::Landorus::Tapu Koko::Tapu Lele::Blacephalon::Tapu Fini:
Curse:

Dragon Dance:

NEW: :Dragonite::Salamence::Zygarde:
Growth:

Nasty Plot:

NEW: :Tornadus-Therian::Thundurus::Thundurus-Therian::Naganadel:
Quiver Dance:

NEW: :Pheromosa:
Shell Smash:

Shift Gear:
:Magearna:
NEW: :Genesect:
Swords Dance:

NEW: :Blaziken::Garchomp::Landorus-Therian::Tapu Bulu::Kartana:
Coil:
NEW: :Zygarde:
Iron Defense: :Melmetal:
Scale Shot:
NEW: :Zygarde::Garchomp:

Priority:
Aqua Jet:
(Rapid-Strike)
Bullet Punch:

NEW: :Metagross:
Grassy Glide:

NEW: :Kartana::Tapu Bulu:
Ice Shard:

Mach Punch:

Prankster:

Quick Attack:

Shadow Sneak:

Sucker Punch:
(Single-Strike):Cinderace:
Extremespeed:
NEW: :Dragonite::Zygarde::Genesect:

3. Defensive Roles

Walls:
Physically Defensive:

NEW: :Zapdos::Suicune::Garchomp::Landorus-Therian::Celesteela:
Specially Defensive:
:Magearna:
NEW: :Zapdos::Latias::Heatran::Tapu Fini::Celesteela:
Mixed:

NEW: :Zapdos::Celesteela::Tapu Fini:

Pivots:
Offensive:
:Cinderace::Magearna:
NEW: :Tornadus-Therian::Landorus::Landorus-Therian::Victini::Genesect::Tapu Koko::Pheromosa:
Defensive:
:Magearna:
NEW: :Tornadus-Therian::Landorus-Therian::Tapu Fini::Zapdos:

4. Weather

Rain:
Drizzle:

Swift Swim:


Sand:
Sand Stream:

Sand Rush:


Sun:
Drought:

Chlorophyll:

Solar Power:
 
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Finchinator

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Thanks finch
Do you guys have any specific reasons darm and vish didn’t make it back in (granted you have been hinting this was the likely position.
I cannot speak on behalf of the entire council, but my personal reasoning was that Galarian-Darmanitan had no blanket counters and makes games come down to virtual guesswork due to how strong it is and Dracovish warps the metagame more than anything else with a single move. I do not like the impact it has on building and I do not like how much damage it can due to a remotely unprepared team.

Things like Kyurem-Black, who are more controversial additions to OU, have only been in the tier for a single day thus far and nobody can claim it has ever been this oppressive or restrictive. Do I think it will last? Honestly, probably not, but I am not going to dismiss the prospect either.
 
Thanks for that finch.

a lot of the Pokémon coming back ended up being broken in National Dex, but at this point national dex is a completely different Meta so it’ll be interesting to see how some of this stuff plays out.

Like yesterday no one thought we’d be getting an ice type with moxie but apparently here we are
 
Some final thoughts

Kartana: CB Adamant Grassy Glide in terrain will be so stupid lol. To give you guys some perspective this deals similar damage to an Espeed Arceus Normal that has used Swords Dance and is holding a Life Orb and is Adamant nature. If you guys don't find that broken considering this doesn't require a turn of set up then I want to know what you guys are smoking because I want some. And with the attack boost from knocking out a Pokemon yeah forget it, it's just going to snowball like crazy.

Blaziken: I've thought about this Pokemon some more and I can see this staying in OU. What makes this that different than something like Hawlucha and Excadrill? Sure Hawlucha and Excadrill need weather/terrain to be up but is it really that hard to get them in when we have automatic setters in Rillaboom/Bulu and TTar/Hippo who are great Pokemon on their own already? Blaziken has to wait a whole turn for the speed boost which won't be easy against HO teams without Protect and if it runs Protect it's just not going to be sweeping or breaking teams unless it's like late game or something. Hawlucha has better coverage in just 2 moves, no recoil, can afford to EV in defenses because of the +2 speed. You could say Blaziken hits harder right off the bat but so does LO Excadrill. That being said, it might still be too much and I might be underestimating it.

Naganadel: Sure it lost the Z move but it will still snowball trough teams with Specs or make huge holes with NP + Draco Meteor and coverage. Lack of Pursuit means you cannot take advantage of it's frailness with TTar. God I wish they didn't remove Pursuit.

Since no one talks about the cover legends I thought it would be a good idea to explain why they have no place in OU because maybe there's some new players lurking on here that would like to know why they are banning them outright. I saw some guy saying that Kyogre could fit in OU the other day. Thing is these legends have high BST and it's usually combined with high powered moves + good typing or absurd bulk in the case of Lugia and Ho Oh. Sure at first glance you can say ¨just run Taunt for Lugia* or that Heatran/Tyranitar beats it but it's really when you pair Lugia with it's teammates that it becomes almost impossible if not impossible to break trough the damn thing. And the birds got even better with Heavy Duty Boots. Good job you managed to land a Toxic on Lugia but oh wait it's teammate is carrying Heal Bell. This combined with all the chip damage from stall teams and your team will die a slow horrible death with the accumulation of the toxic spam + burn spread + hazard and Knock Off + Whirlwind spam from Lugia from a well built stall team. Same with Ho-Oh. It just never dies with Regen + Boots. Has great special defense and just burns everything so good luck trying to take it down on the physical side. Moving on to Groudon and Kyogre. Groudon is less broken than Kyogre but it's not just about being broken but how unhealthy and overcentralising they are. Sure Gastrodon doesn't take anything from Water Spout or Origin Pulse Kyogre, sure Shedinja takes zero from Kyogre but even if every one of us started using Shedinja in every team Kyogre would just adapt and run Toxic and proceed to drown everything else to death XD. Groudon is too good too. It's a much better Rhyperior in like every way, would make sun the dominant weather. The support it provides to it's team is just tremendous on top of being an amazing Pokemon on it's own. SD, Eruption, Stone Edge, EQ, PB, Rock Polish, great bulk you name it. It has it all. It's borderline broken. I was going to go over more Pokemon but I'm tired now but hopefully you get the point.
 
Naganadel should be quickbanned,no true counter for him

KB and Magearna deserves a suspect test

Lando-i,phero,zygarde and genesect are fine,i can see them in ou this gen
 

DC

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Some initial thoughts on the unbanned Ubers from gen 7:
:Pheromosa: - Pheromosa's 151 Base Speed is very bonkers; outspeeding Zeraora and non-Scarf Dragapult is pretty good in the metagame. Choice Band, Choice Specs, Choice Scarf (both physical & special), Quiver Dance, Rapid Spin Pivot, and Mixed Expert Belt sets are all plausible sets and it can hard to prep for all of them. Beast Boost makes snowballing alot easier and scarier.

:Naganadel: - Naganadel's Speed tier is not as good as before, but that aint really stopping it. Nasty Plot + 3 attacks is still as scary as ever, especially since its checks like Assault Vest Tyranitar lost Pursuit to punish it. Adding Spikes to its arsenal is very useful for wearing down other checks like Specially Defensive Heatran, Assault Vest Magearna, and Chansey (also Blissey if Boots get knocked). Again, Beast Boost is a scary snowballing tool.

:Genesect: - Its an interesting addition with high potential to be busted. Its coverage is pretty amazing and having Download only increases its versatility. Physical Genesect only got better with the addition of Shift Gear and Choice Band is still as dangerous as ever. Just like Pheromosa, it is also capable of running many sets, ranging from Choice Specs and Choice Scarf (both physical & special) to Expert Belt and Life Orb AOA.

:Blaziken: - Probably not as broken as the prior three. Blaziken has serious 4MSS since you want a combination of Swords Dance / Protect / Flare Blitz / Close Combat (nice alternative btw) / coverage (Earthquake / Thunder Punch). Plus, even after a Speed Boost, its still slower than alot of the fast Pokemon in the tier.

:Landorus: - Don't really know what to expect from Landorus. It will prolly be overshadowed by the first three on my list, but could definitely shine since its bulk is deceptively underrated and Sheer Force-boosted attacks are gonna hurt like a truck. A secretly OP threat?

:Zygarde: - Zygarde did lose one of its biggest tool in Draconium Z and Steelium Z to bypass its checks. However, its other sets like Choice Band, Dragon Dance, Coil, DDCoil, and Toxic + Protect are still untouched. Sleeper pick?
 

Finchinator

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Everyone seems to be asking why this, that, and the other thing to the point that I had to say fuck it:


But in an effort to be transparent, which the general public absolutely deserves, here is why I voted as I did:
  • :Dracovish: and :Darmanitan-Galar: stood out to me over a prolonged period of time to decay away at any prospect of a balanced metagame when they resided in the metagame.
    • :Dracovish: prohibited it through forcing Water immunities or one of a very small pool of other checks onto teams. It warped the metagame and unless we got a handful of viable Water immunities (hint: we did not), I did not see much reason to drop it down personally.
    • :Darmanitan-Galar: was so strong that it had no true counters and very few actual checks. It was forced to lock in to a single move each time, which was the main flaw of it, but then you realize that given how strong it was, this just made every game devolve into a guessing game. That was the case then, that would be the case now, and a faster-paced metagame would perhaps limit the Choice Band set slightly, but then you realize Choice Scarf destroys everything fast and you reach the same conclusion.
  • :Kyurem-Black: was partially a vote I did out of principal: I was not convinced enough by the one day it resided in the post-home SS metagame to keep it locked up. A single day sample size when countless Pokemon were introduced, moves were distributed, and so much more was going on is simply too small. Do I think it will be broken? More likely than not, yes, but when we have access to liberal quickbans, I am less worried about this than I would be the potential of us keeping it banned when it would be balanced. The above Pokemon (Dracovish and G-Darmanitan) are fairly known entities and what they do will lead to an unhealthy metagame state in some capacity. Kyurem-Black I would not categorize this way yet. Perhaps this was a judgement call given my perspective on Kyurem-Black and the limited sample size and perhaps some of you disagree with it. If you do, I understand, but I do not think I am too far off base and I am confident we will handle any and all problems anyway.
  • :Melmetal: was a Pokemon I wanted OU all along; I voted to unban it in the re-test and I firmly believed it would have been ok then. I still feel this way and I believe it will have some sticking power in this metagame. I am curious to see if CB, Body Press, and/or AV sets pick up in the early stages of the tier.
  • :Magearna: and :Cinderace: were Pokemon that required a suspect or re-test to be banned to begin with, meaning they lasted in the tier for a number of weeks without action within the last couple of months. Right off the bat, that makes them far more qualified to be unbanned than something like G-Darmanitan, which got promptly quickbanned once Dynamax was handled. However, Dracovish remained in the tier for months. Why? Because the things that did check/counter it were spammed, other fundamentally problematic things had to get handled (see: Arena Trap), and it took a while for a developing metagame to realize its full potential. As for Magearna and Cinderace, they hit the ground running as fast as possible and caught attention within days/weeks. The thing is that this attention was oftentimes rivaled with some contesting to their status as broken and honestly I do believe that if not for the uprising of Choice Specs Magearna and Gunk Shot Cinderace, then they both may have settled into the tier. I think they were closer calls. I think the pool of checks and counters to them is at least wide enough to give them a shot. They can and perhaps will end up back in Ubers if there are too many limitations surrounding them, but I cannot say with much confidence that will be the case given the nature of these Pokemon in the old metagame or the numerous new introductions to the metagame that may impact their viability.
  • Dynamax has no place in a singles metagame that's remotely competitive. Games devolve into guesswork, snowballing sweeps occur frequently, and even the defensive exploits are ridiculous.
  • Arena Trap and Shadow Tag are uncompetitive and I have consistently wanted them removed from OU.
  • Moody is what you get when the game developers have a bad experience with children prior to theorizing new ideas for games for children. They really wanted to take it out on 'em.
  • :Pheromosa: was impacted a ton by Z-moves last generation. Without them, I do not think it would have been as clear-cut. I cannot go as far as saying it would have been balanced, but you still are seeing a totally different Pokemon then. It did gain Boots for pivoting, Close Combat for reliability, and a metagame that probably will hate Clefable/Toxapex more than ever before, so this could be an ideal landscape for it, but I am not willing to base that much off of theory when the lack of Z-moves is a defintiive drop in viability, so I gave it the nod.
  • :Naganadel: was the second hardest conclusion to draw for me, but ultimately it was similar to Pheromosa: reliance on Z-moves helped it a ton. Without them, it is a different Pokemon and it is suddenly wallable, which could potentially help. It's still fast and strong, so I would not be shocked to see it go eventually.
  • :Blaziken: would have been re-tested last generation if not for Z-moves if it were up to me. Unfortunately, Z-moves made it even easier to abuse, but now I think is a perfect time to give it a chance for the first time in ages. It cannot truly hit everything, especially without support, and it also is quite flimsy, especially when using Life Orb. Sure, it gained some moves, but this is not enough for me to suddenly give up hope and abandon the above logic.
  • :Zygarde: lasted most of last generation and while the lack of HP Ice is worrisome, it loses out on Z-moves and the metagame will be filled with Fairy and Grass types, perhaps more than ever before. One must wonder if this will be enough to compensate and I wondered enough to decide that I wanted to make this hypothetical a reality.
  • :Landorus: still lacks outright counters due to sheer versatility, but it has a lot of situational checks. So many faster additions that can nuke it, the rise of Grassy Gliders, and then specific things like Latis/TornT that maintain an offensive presence while potentially being able to make it awkward for Landorus at least gives me a sliver of hope. I think it will end up banned honestly. I really do. It does so damn much, but I cannot be certain and I think by all accounts and consistency with how these decisions have been made, I had to say give it a try. :Genesect: is largely in the same boat, but also no Z-moves and a slightly worse speed tier in a metagame where Latis get a Fire move could make things spicy for it.
now pls stop bombarding me i just want to have fun ;-;
 
Belly Drum:
Ah, I see you have at long last seen the light.

Anyway, very glad to see G-Darm not seeing the light of day. 99% of the things we're getting back are either too slow as Scarfers to outpace its own Scarf set (Lando-T specifically) or too good with other sets to warrant dropping them for a Scarf set of their own (Chomp, Zapdos, etc.).

G-Darm honestly just gets strictly stronger in a metagame like this one considering how much Ice-weak shit we're getting and considering how many of those things it outright OHKOs.

I'm also super happy to see more opportunity for Screens HO nowadays, too. While Urshifu currently gives Screens squads utter hell, having stuff like Magearna and Zygarde coming back as setup sweepers sounds like a blessing, and having Koko coming back gives those squads a reliable setter that you can never truly be safe around (as well as a Hawlucha enabler that isn't Rilla, although Rilla is and will almost certainly continue to be absolutely godlike) for any HO squad. That Heatran-outpacing Speed tier is astronomically good for a Grass type with its movepool.

Kyurem-Black also does wonders for these teams but I don't think my old opinion regarding that thing will change much going forward. That mon is terrifying beyond belief now that it actually has a movepool, but I appreciate that it's getting a fair chance in a very different meta.

I swear Clef is going to make me want to die though. There isn't a damn thing we're getting in this DLC (unless Calyrex and its weird new formes blow our minds?) that doesn't either lose to a Clefable that decided to run the right set for the right occasion or that doesn't heavily benefit from being paired up with a Clefable that decided to run the right set for the right occasion. I can realistically see a LOT more Ice Beam Clef usage though so it can give Lando, Zygarde, and Chomp the biggest headaches possible.

LO Clef has great chance to OHKO Tank Chomp (252 HP) and doesn't care much for anything Tank Chomp can do, cleanly OHKOs Offensive Chomp when Moonblast can't even reliably achieve that without chip, shits on every single viable Landorus-T set out there, and can do enough damage to ensure that Zygarde is essentially forced to run 188 HP/60 SpDef EVs (404 HP and 241 SpDef as raw stats) to always avoid the OHKO from LO Ice Beam after Rocks, which severely cuts into its Speed tier and/or damage output.

No joke, I genuinely think Clefable will just continue to be the best, most consistent mon in OU even in spite of all the insane stuff we're getting. Nothing appreciates a Trick or Yellow Magic if Clefable isn't just outright 2HKOing or OHKOing stuff with a different set, and I'd absolutely go so far as to make the bold claim that Melmetal will be more than happy to be reunited with its best partner in crime.
 

Gomi

yep
is a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Discord Contributor Alumnus
DLC is in a day so i wanted to dedicate a post to one of my favorite pokemon ever which will DEFINITELY end up banned but fuck it, it's just so fun
tumblr_ogai1dUh0X1td9nt5o1_500[1].gif

Genesect; AKA the poster child of offensive versatility
I'll just go over sets because talking about what the bug boy can do statically and movepool wise is all stuff you could figure out yourself very easily and frankly I don't care, I just wanna talk about how many sets it has

Starting off with a staple of Genesect's repertoire since its introduction and an incredibly dominant set in its debut gen's ubers tier, Scarf is incredible, just incredible. Download allows Genesect to retain so much power regardless of its item choice and scarf fully abuses this, creating a fast, powerful, and reasonably bulky revenge killer with a knack for maintaining momentum with a powerful and difficult to stomach U-turn.
Genesect @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Download
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- U-turn
- Iron Head
- Explosion/Blaze Kick
- Ice Beam

Genesect @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Download
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- U-turn
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Beam
- Flamethrower

These sets both function quite similarly and mostly differ in the choice between being a more efficent revenge killer or having more kick in your u-turns+the option to boom and trade VS. offensive teams. There's not alot to say about them because they simply define what genesect is all about, powerful mixed attacking with extreme versatility. As long as you have that powerful U-turn, you're good to go!
Scarf is great and all, but what about doubling down on Genesect's offensive capabilities?
Genesect @ Choice Specs
Ability: Download
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Beam
- Flamethrower/Flash Cannon/Bug Buzz/Honestly whatever
- U-turn

Genesect @ Choice Band
Ability: Download
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly/Naive Nature (change spread to 4 spa if naive)
- Iron Head
- U-turn
- Extreme Speed
- Blaze Kick/Ice Beam/Explosion

Click buttons, deal tons of damage, maintain momentum with U-turn while doing huge damage, but the real potency comes from the sheer number of options at this mon's disposal. Wanna go to Hippo? Specs destroys. Wanna go to Blissey? Even specs U-turn will dent you, let alone a CB boosted attack. Wanna go to Pex? Even if you deduce that it is CB, You'd need Helm to punish U-Turn, you get the picture. There's just no comfortable way to handle these sets, even if you somehow figure out what they are, which is not a safe or easy thing to do.
Choice sets aren't even remotely the only thing this pokemon can do, though they are the most effective. One thing I'm sure you've noticed is that heatran heavily annoys pretty much every set here. Heatran is definitely one of Genesect's few shortcomings, being almost impossible to super effectively Hit it with standard sets, but this is Genesect we're talking about sooo
Genesect @ Douse Drive
Ability: Download
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shift Gear
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Beam
- Techno Blast
A somewhat different genesect set based around being a pretty solid and speedy late game cleaner that doesn't care at all about heatran while functioning decently in the midgame because of download being kinda stupid.

Genesect @ Expert Belt/Life Orb
Ability: Download
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shift Gear
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Beam
- Flamethrower
This set forgoes the ability to just not care about heatran at all in order to KO ferrothorn and gain a bit more power from your item of choice, obviously this one is much more dedicated towards the late game but its coverage and speed make it an absolute menace to halt.

Genesect @ Life Orb
Ability: Download
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Shift Gear
- Iron Head
- Blaze Kick
- Zen Headbutt
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Genesect Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 250-296 (82.2 - 97.3%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Absolutely requires LO and a turn to SG but rewards you with an extremely powerful physical cleaner/Pex lure with plenty of surprise factor.

Genesect @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Download
EVs: 252 Spe
Bashful Nature
- U-turn
Follow after the new age U-turn spammers like Cinderace and Dragapult and slap some boots on to avoid all hazard damage for much better survivability with solid power. This is pretty much just an item choice over the choiced sets so yea, U-turn mandatory and then go nuts.
This thing can do literally whatever it wants, abuse it until its inevitably banned for being stupid broken
also there's definitely some moveset choices I'm missing but I don't wanna write anymore
aaaaaaaa
 
Oh boy, can't believe I'm doing this....

:zamazenta:The "Unban Zamazenta" post:zamazenta:

I know the council discussed unbanning certain other potential Ubers (although I don't know which ones they discussed), just wanna talk about why I personally think this should have been on the list of mons starting in OU. Zamazenta's awesome stats might make it seem pretty daunting (pun intended), but it has always had shortcomings such as lack of really good boosting moves, the middling mono-fighting STAB, and generally being relatively predictable. I also think that that the meta is shaping up to be able to handle it well enough, and if it's ever going to be tested in OU, now is as good a time as ever. I'm going to outline my arguments point by point, and after each section there will be a wall of calcs sort of summing up the individual matchups discussed in that section. Just so we're clear, I'm not convinced that Zamazenta would even be balanced in OU in the long haul, but I mean, I am similarly unconvinced about most of the other mons voted on to start in OU, so I think Zamazenta is worth a try.

  • OU already necessitates a strong Fighting-type check anyways
There are a lot of pivots with Regenerator in OU, and specifically a lot that resist Fighting. Toxapex, Amoonguss, Slowbro, and now Tornadus-T (and perhaps Slowking-Galar) are all capable of pivoting in on a predicted Fighting attack. Now none of those can safely be called Urshifu answers, but all of them are definitely capable of pivoting in on an attack from Zamazenta, to scout its choiced sets. None of these are mons that are bad in OU, and in fact, I expect them to be even more necessary post-DLC. Toxapex is still one of the better pivots in the meta, but with Pheromosa and Blaziken returning, as well as Cinderace, its' niche as a physically defensive pivot will be even more called upon. Slowbro is basically a hard counter to Blaziken, and it just so happens to be a great stop to Zamazenta too. Amoonguss will be a great option to pivot into Tapu Koko, but can switch in on Zamazenta to sponge a blow if needed. You see what I'm getting at here, all of these already-viable Pokemon will be used anyways, and would be great means of pivoting in on Zamazenta, resulting in it needing a lot of prediction to adequately make use of. There is also the mandatory phys def Clefable, something already used as a mandatory Urshifu answer, that basically would force Zamazenta to click Iron Head a lot to potentially 2HKO it if it sees Clefable on the opposing team, which can be a liability.
:toxapex:
252 Atk Choice Band Zamazenta Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 158-186 (51.9 - 61.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Zamazenta Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 78-93 (25.6 - 30.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
Toxapex effectively sponges any of Zamazenta's moves except Psychic Fangs or Wild Charge, which generally 2HKO. These moves both have immunities and are pretty weak otherwise, so pivoting out to something else and regenerating most of the health you lost is easy enough. Meanwhile, Zamazenta loses HP from Wild Charge, and potentially Rocky Helmet chip too.
:slowbro:
252 Atk Choice Band Zamazenta Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 200-236 (50.7 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Slowbro is a similar story to Toxapex. Pivots in easily on CC, can be 2HKO'd by coverage but it can easily pivot out and regenerate most of the health it loses from that.
:tornadus-therian:
252 Atk Choice Band Zamazenta Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tornadus-Therian: 176-207 (48.6 - 57.1%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Zamazenta Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tornadus-Therian: 352-416 (97.2 - 114.9%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
All of Zamazenta's coverage do about the same or less than CC, with the exception of Wild Charge which usually OHKOs and Ice Fang which never does.
:amoonguss:
252 Atk Choice Band Zamazenta Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Amoonguss: 195-231 (45.1 - 53.4%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Zamazenta Ice Fang vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Amoonguss: 282-334 (65.2 - 77.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
I think we'll see more specially defensive Amoonguss to switch in on Tapu Koko easier, but even a specially defensive Amoonguss can pivot in on Zamazenta once if it needs to. Physically defensive obviously does much better, only really fearing Psychic Fangs, which I think could be a difficult move to slot.
:clefable:
252 Atk Choice Band Zamazenta Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 129-152 (32.7 - 38.5%) -- 4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Zamazenta Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 230-272 (58.3 - 69%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Clefable has a similar matchup to Zamazenta that it does to Urshifu, it forces the banded Iron Head. Bear in mind that if you're running WishPort, you can use Protect to scout the move, unlike with Urshifu.
:aegislash:
252 Atk Choice Band Zamazenta Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 110-130 (33.9 - 40.1%) -- 35.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Zamazenta Crunch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 196-232 (60.4 - 71.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Aegislash is another really great check. It takes Wild Charge nicely enough, and is only really threatened by Crunch which is otherwise a pretty sodden move to run. Even a more offensive Aegislash can pivot in and suck the momentum away from the Zamazenta user.
:hippowdon:
252 Atk Choice Band Zamazenta Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 248+ Def Hippowdon: 189-223 (45 - 53%) -- 31.6% chance to 2HKO
This matchup is identical to Band Urshifu's matchup versus Hippowdon. It can 2HKO, but not consistently and it takes chip damage while doing so. Unlike Urshifu, I don't think Zamazenta can really afford to run an Adamant nature, since you only tie with Naganadel and Tornadus-Therian if you do (outspeeding Tapu Koko is very important).

  • Many new threats in the DLC can check it
This list includes Buzzwole, Landorus-T, and Zapdos, among others. Zapdos especially, cannot be 2HKO'd by any move from the CB set, and all of Zamazenta's moves are contact, so it runs the risk of getting Static'd. Pressure Zapdos is similar, and burns through Close Combat PP very quickly. Tapu Fini pivots in on Zamazenta, and although it gets worn down over time, it can take enough CCs to pivot in a few times. Notably, fully phys def Fini isn't even guaranteed to be 4HKO'd by any attack from the CB set if it does not run Wild Charge. Unlike Urshifu, Zamazenta does not get Poison Jab, meaning that Tapu Fini and I guess Bulu can pivot in on it a bit safer. Buzzwole is, of course, a very good stop to Zamazenta, not even being 2HKO'd by banded Psychic Fangs, and already looks to be a very viable mon in OU due to being an amazing stop to Urshifu, as well as physical variants of Pheromosa. Landorus-T is a really hard check to Zamazenta that only really fears Ice Fang, which again forces its hand. And of course, we cannot forget that Unaware Clefable with Soft-Boiled will be legal too and will definitely be used to constrain Zygarde, for instance, but it definitely has use against Zamazenta as well, especially due to the Howl set. Based on typing alone, Zapdos-Galar, Articuno-Galar, Slowbro-Galar and Calyrex all seem like they can check Zamazenta to some extent too, but since we don't know much about these mons yet, I'm going to reserve my judgement on them for now, since I think my points stand fine without taking them into account.
:buzzwole:
252 Atk Choice Band Zamazenta Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Buzzwole: 84-99 (20 - 23.6%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Zamazenta Psychic Fangs vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Buzzwole: 158-188 (37.7 - 44.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Zamazenta cannot overcome Buzzwole. It simply cannot happen. Zamazenta does not have Toxic or Aerial Ace, so Howl sets attempting to break through or some janky Work Up Moonblast set is all it can do. I'll cover the matchup with the Howl set later on in this.
:tapu fini:
252 Atk Choice Band Zamazenta Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Tapu Fini: 96-114 (27.9 - 33.2%) -- 88.9% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Zamazenta Wild Charge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Tapu Fini: 192-228 (55.9 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Great option to pivot in, especially if you have something else to dissuade Wild Charge. Moonblast does 2HKO back, by the way.
:tapu bulu:
252 Atk Choice Band Zamazenta Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tapu Bulu: 172-204 (50 - 59.3%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
If you're running physically defensive Bulu for some reason (it's probably a good Zygarde and Lando-T check) it can pivot in if it needs to, just watch out for Iron Head.
:dragonite:
252 Atk Choice Band Zamazenta Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 76-90 (19.6 - 23.3%) -- possible 5HKO
If Dragonite running any sort of bulk catches on, it'll be something you need Ice Fang for as well. Dragonite with Roost seems potent due to HDB.
:zapdos:
252 Atk Choice Band Zamazenta Ice Fang vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos: 170-202 (44.2 - 52.6%) -- 18.4% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Zamazenta Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos: 117-138 (30.4 - 35.9%) -- 48.1% chance to 3HKO
Zapdos can be really punishing for Zamazenta. It's only really threatened by Ice Fang, and Static can absolutely ruin Zamazenta's great speed. I mentioned Pressure being able to stall out of CC PP easy too, even though more people will probably run Static anyways.
:garchomp:
252 Atk Choice Band Zamazenta Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Garchomp: 220-259 (52.3 - 61.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Just for reference TankChomp is 2HKO'd by CC or Ice Fang, so its not really a good answer, but the chip damage can really add up, when you account for Wild Charge chip damage too.
:landorus-therian:
-1 252 Atk Choice Band Zamazenta Ice Fang vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-Therian: 220-260 (57.5 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 252 Atk Choice Band Zamazenta Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-Therian: 75-89 (19.6 - 23.2%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
Zamazenta absolutely NEEDS Ice Fang in order to make any sort of headway against this mon at all. Additionally, I think Landorus-T might be running Toxic or Knock Off a lot, both of which can really limit Zamazenta.

  • The Howl set seems consistent but has counterplay
For reference, Zamazenta doesn't get Swords Dance, or even Bulk Up. If you want to boost Attack with Zamazenta, Howl or Work Up is the best you're going to get. That's not to say Howl or Work Up would be unviable; they seem actually very good in an OU environment, especially for cleaning up weakened, slower teams. It has 4MSS though, big time, and still can't really break most things the CB set can't. It wants Wild Charge to 2HKO Toxapex at +1 (it's similar to Bulk Up Zen Headbutt Cinderace where Toxapex can heal and Haze alternatingly, however Zamazenta doesn't have the flinch chance) as well as Slowbro, Iron Head for Clefable, Ice Fang for Lando-T and Zapdos, and it still loses to Buzzwole unless it runs Psychic Fangs. Although Buzzwole does barely anything back, Zamazenta can't accrue enough boosts to beat it before it gets beaten. Not to mention that Buzzwole can run Bulk Up or even Toxic which turns it into an even more positive matchup for Buzzwole. If it runs Leftovers it simply is not that strong, and if it runs Life Orb the combined effect of that and Wild Charge will wear it down, and it makes it so stuff like Toxapex can just heal up and Haze as it dies. But it also needs the power of Life Orb in order to break through Unaware Clefable. Basically, the point is, this set can't cover everything it needs to.
:buzzwole:
0 Atk Buzzwole Drain Punch vs. +1 0 HP / 4 Def Zamazenta: 64-76 (19.6 - 23.3%) -- possible 5HKO
0 Atk Buzzwole Drain Punch vs. +1 0 HP / 4 Def Zamazenta: 64-76 (19.6 - 23.3%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
This might seem dire, but you need to remember that non Life Orb Zamazenta needs to boost up to +5 Attack just to have a chance to 2HKO Buzzwole, if it's not running Psychic Fangs, and Buzzwole can use Hammer Arm instead to speed things along, or Bulk Up to just win, or Toxic to just win. Even Poison Jab with its high poison chance turns this into a winning matchup.
:zapdos:
0 SpA Zapdos Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta: 254-302 (78.1 - 92.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Zapdos Discharge vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta: 93-111 (28.6 - 34.1%) -- 98.5% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Zamazenta Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 184+ Def Zapdos: 125-147 (32.5 - 38.2%) -- 98.2% chance to 3HKO
Watch out for Hurricane, but even Discharge can beat it down with some luck. Static is still a factor here too.
:clefable:
0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta: 174-206 (53.5 - 63.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Zamazenta Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 200-237 (50.7 - 60.1%) -- 85.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Zamazenta Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Clefable: 154-182 (39 - 46.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

  • Zamazenta's best matchup would probably be against offense, but it doesn't seem completely unstoppable
Zamazenta's high bulk and speed means it would be able to dominate slower, physically offensive mons. It has really insane bulk for such an offensive mon and survives a lot of things, I'll give it that. The fact that using Close Combat tanks its defenses can eat into its bulk, though. It still gets 2HKO'd by LO or Specs or Band Pheromosa, Specs Dragapult, +2 Bulu Grassy Glide, among other things. It would find its place in the meta as a limiting factor for mons such as Cinderace, Urshifu, and Kyurem-B, being able to offensively pivot in on them once and force them out. It would also be a great offensive check to Pheromosa. Overall, Zamazenta would be great for offensive teams to not be immediately steamrolled by insane physical attackers without giving up too much momentum. This was kind of a problem so far in gen 8 OU as stuff like Rillaboom could clean up opposing teams easily and forced you to run a momentum suck.
:tapu koko:
252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Koko Rising Voltage (140 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta in Electric Terrain: 318-375 (97.8 - 115.3%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
Zamazenta can revenge kill Tapu Koko if it is weakened a bit, but watch out.
:urshifu:
252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Close Combat vs. +1 0 HP / 4 Def Zamazenta: 174-205 (53.5 - 63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Wicked Blow vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Zamazenta on a critical hit: 130-153 (40 - 47%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Zamazenta can switch in on the otherwise impossible to switch in on Urshifu once, which is something many offensive teams will appreciate, I think.
:pheromosa:
252 Atk Life Orb Pheromosa Close Combat vs. +1 0 HP / 4 Def Zamazenta: 156-185 (48 - 56.9%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO
It really prevents Pheromosa, especially physical variants from running too wild. You should know that Specs Focus blast does like 90%, however, so checking any sort of special variant is much tougher.
:zeraora:
252 SpA Zeraora Volt Switch vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta: 85-102 (26.1 - 31.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
Remember this guy? If you have something like Slowbro you can pivot around while chipping Zamazenta down with Volt Switch.
:tapu bulu:
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Tapu Bulu Grassy Glide vs. +1 0 HP / 4 Def Zamazenta in Grassy Terrain: 251-296 (77.2 - 91%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Zamazenta Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Bulu: 232-274 (82.5 - 97.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Tapu Bulu Wood Hammer vs. +1 0 HP / 4 Def Zamazenta in Grassy Terrain: 247-292 (76 - 89.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
Matchups against more offensive Bulu. Zamazenta can revenge kill if it is weakened a bit but probably shouldn't be pivoting in.

  • What about Zamazenta-Crowned?
Compared to regular Zamazenta it is even easier to wall by non-fairies since it can't run Choice Band, but it would have a much better typing (immune to toxic) and even more insane bulk, letting it bear down on offensive mons even more. I think at that point it would be centralizing for the offensive meta to deal with. If every team ends up running Zapdos, Toxapex, or Slowbro though, it could be fine but I don't really have as strong of an opinion on it. So no, I don't know if it should be unbanned, but that's not really the point of my post.

Edit: I don't have as strong of an opinion on Zamazenta-Crowned, because we can't unban it without unbanning regular Zamazenta. One thing at a time, I think. I sort of assumed they would be tiered together but I don't actually know. If they are tiered separately Zamazenta-Crowned could be considered for an unban as well, honestly both forms of Zamazenta could be fine.
  • I think Zamazenta would be worth trying in OU since its power level seems more in line with some of the more recent additions that are being trialed in OU
  • Although it is capable of 2HKOing much of OU, it needs absolutely pristine prediction in order to pull it off, and it still has a few hard counters
  • I don't think the Howl set would break it since it's still not really strong enough after a boost and has coverage issues
  • Thanks to its great bulk and speed, it will be excellent against offense, but I think its shortcomings against common defensive mons hold it back a bit
  • I don't think Zamazenta-Crowned should be unbanned (at least, right away)

Thanks for reading.
 
Last edited:
DLC is in a day so i wanted to dedicate a post to one of my favorite pokemon ever which will DEFINITELY end up banned but fuck it, it's just so fun
View attachment 283406
Genesect; AKA the poster child of offensive versatility
I'll just go over sets because talking about what the bug boy can do statically and movepool wise is all stuff you could figure out yourself very easily and frankly I don't care, I just wanna talk about how many sets it has

Starting off with a staple of Genesect's repertoire since its introduction and an incredibly dominant set in its debut gen's ubers tier, Scarf is incredible, just incredible. Download allows Genesect to retain so much power regardless of its item choice and scarf fully abuses this, creating a fast, powerful, and reasonably bulky revenge killer with a knack for maintaining momentum with a powerful and difficult to stomach U-turn.
Genesect @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Download
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- U-turn
- Iron Head
- Explosion/Blaze Kick
- Ice Beam

Genesect @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Download
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- U-turn
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Beam
- Flamethrower

These sets both function quite similarly and mostly differ in the choice between being a more efficent revenge killer or having more kick in your u-turns+the option to boom and trade VS. offensive teams. There's not alot to say about them because they simply define what genesect is all about, powerful mixed attacking with extreme versatility. As long as you have that powerful U-turn, you're good to go!
Scarf is great and all, but what about doubling down on Genesect's offensive capabilities?
Genesect @ Choice Specs
Ability: Download
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Beam
- Flamethrower/Flash Cannon/Bug Buzz/Honestly whatever
- U-turn

Genesect @ Choice Band
Ability: Download
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly/Naive Nature (change spread to 4 spa if naive)
- Iron Head
- U-turn
- Extreme Speed
- Blaze Kick/Ice Beam/Explosion

Click buttons, deal tons of damage, maintain momentum with U-turn while doing huge damage, but the real potency comes from the sheer number of options at this mon's disposal. Wanna go to Hippo? Specs destroys. Wanna go to Blissey? Even specs U-turn will dent you, let alone a CB boosted attack. Wanna go to Pex? Even if you deduce that it is CB, You'd need Helm to punish U-Turn, you get the picture. There's just no comfortable way to handle these sets, even if you somehow figure out what they are, which is not a safe or easy thing to do.
Choice sets aren't even remotely the only thing this pokemon can do, though they are the most effective. One thing I'm sure you've noticed is that heatran heavily annoys pretty much every set here. Heatran is definitely one of Genesect's few shortcomings, being almost impossible to super effectively Hit it with standard sets, but this is Genesect we're talking about sooo
Genesect @ Douse Drive
Ability: Download
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shift Gear
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Beam
- Techno Blast
A somewhat different genesect set based around being a pretty solid and speedy late game cleaner that doesn't care at all about heatran while functioning decently in the midgame because of download being kinda stupid.

Genesect @ Expert Belt/Life Orb
Ability: Download
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shift Gear
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Beam
- Flamethrower
This set forgoes the ability to just not care about heatran at all in order to KO ferrothorn and gain a bit more power from your item of choice, obviously this one is much more dedicated towards the late game but its coverage and speed make it an absolute menace to halt.

Genesect @ Life Orb
Ability: Download
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Shift Gear
- Iron Head
- Blaze Kick
- Zen Headbutt
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Genesect Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 250-296 (82.2 - 97.3%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Absolutely requires LO and a turn to SG but rewards you with an extremely powerful physical cleaner/Pex lure with plenty of surprise factor.

Genesect @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Download
EVs: 252 Spe
Bashful Nature
- U-turn
Follow after the new age U-turn spammers like Cinderace and Dragapult and slap some boots on to avoid all hazard damage for much better survivability with solid power. This is pretty much just an item choice over the choiced sets so yea, U-turn mandatory and then go nuts.
This thing can do literally whatever it wants, abuse it until its inevitably banned for being stupid broken
also there's definitely some moveset choices I'm missing but I don't wanna write anymore
aaaaaaaa
i heard genesect get steel beam,So What about Choice Specs Steel beam?when u get a Spa boost it hit hard as hell
 

Martin

A monoid in the category of endofunctors
is a Smogon Discord Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
Genesect has been one of the most absurd, beyond-broken Pokemon in the format all of the four previous times it was legal. The same applies to Sheer Force Lando-I, which is even more broken. I would’ve thought we’d learned our lesson by now, and I really don’t understand what meaningful change happened to justify giving them another shot now.

The rest are neither here nor there for me and I don’t mind the retests for ‘em, but I can’t imagine any of Phero, Zyg, Naga, Cinderace, or Zygarde being anything other than broken now. Magearna is also still probably unmanageable to because the only real checks we gained are Heatran and Celesteela, which both kinda crumple in the face of Specs Volt Switch (plus every Steela set hates Trick with a passion, as does utility Tran).

I don’t think Melmetal was broken before, and even if we pretend that it was, our options for dealing with it are a lot better now. Zapdos, Moltres and Volcarona all resist DIB and can punish with Static or Flame Body, respectively; Tank Garchomp can’t take CB DIB but deals 7/12 in chip with Helmet, which is pretty much a death sentence for something as slow as Melmetal; fully PhysDef Lando can tank a CB DIB from full if it gets off an Intim and returns fire with Helmet and EQ; Skarm, Slowbro, and Celesteela all take piss-all from DIB and press funny buttons in return, with the first two being viable Helmet users; Tang can’t take two CB DIBs but can chip with Helmet and has Regen; Ferrothorn, Hippowdon, and Toxapex all still exist. This mon is, frankly, fine. It always was fine. I don’t really understand why the previous suspect went the way it did, but it’s back now so it’s whatever.

I never got to use KyuB with DD+Spear access, so I can’t really comment on it.

#FreeWobbuffet
 

Niko

is a Tiering Contributoris a Past WCoP Champion
World Defender
Ok jokes apart, I understand the reason why you're doing that. It's ok to try retesting stuff, but i dont think this is the way you do it. If you overload the tier with a lot of Pokèmon that could potentially be banworthy, you are going to automatically increase the general offensive firepower of the meta, making it way harder to know what it's banworthy and what not. This is because you are going to compare a banworthy threat with another banworthy one. Also because these Pokèmons establish interactions between themselves, and at this point it becomes difficult to ban OP stuff because you need them to stop/revengekill other OP stuff. And yes, with a good amount of time and a huge amount of quickbans/suspect you can deal with it, but wouldn't it be easier to just start without these Pokèmons and retesting them one at a time?
 

shadowpea

everyone is lonely sometimes
is a Tiering Contributor
My thoughts on mons Finch talked about:
1603283542660.png
1603283546972.png
: Screw them. They are leaving anyway and I can see why.
Banned in: Now
1603283569277.png
: Somehow I think DD + Icicle Spear is a bit too much for OU, but because of Icicle Spear's inconsistancy who knows? I think it will be broken again because of the reasons it was banned in the first place, but again, who knows?
Banned in: 2 months - never
1603283719303.png
: AV looks pretty good on this thing. Personally I think that poor speed and special bulk holds it back and mons can take advantage of that (Naga, Phero, Volcarona, etc). However, it is really, really good on the physical side and Double Iron Bash still hits for ridiculous power. I think it's fair to give it a chance to start with OU but I'm not sure how long it will last.
Banned in: 2 months - never
1603283924275.png
: Genesect might be a problem for it but I think specs Fleur Cannon just got better with targets like Chomp, Zyg, and Phero (but the increase in grounds are problematic)
Banned in: 3 months - never
1603283927681.png
: Give it a chance. At least we'll know it will last longer than Blaziken lol.
Banned in: 4 months - never
1603284117494.png
: Yeah, Phero really, really liked Z-Moves, but I still think it isn't gonna last long. HDB allows it to spam U-Turn all day. I think that it is going to be too much for the tier (it's basically Deoxys Roach Forme) what with Close Combat and U-turn. Frankly, I think that it will be one of the ones that will be banned first.
Banned in: 1 week - 1 month
1603284299367.png
: Again, Naga really liked Z-Moves, but this time I think that it might last (at least for a couple of months). NP + 3 attacks is still great but it can be walled and killed (Pult outspeeds and KOes it, for example). Here's hoping that it will last just because Naga is one of my favorites in the game. (Another thing: I honestly see this being used in Ubers as it will probably be a great Dynamax abuser (on paper). Max Ooze + Beast Boost lets it set up without NP. It don't like Zacian tho. Looking forward to testing it there!)
Banned in: 3 weeks - 2 months (yeah I'm still hoping it won't be banned)
1603284544662.png
: This thing gets so much opportunities to set up SD what with all the steels and grasses in the tier. You can easily find yourself going against a +2 Atk +? Spe Blaziken. It's gonna get its chance. Then it's gonna get kicked back into Ubers within a week.
Banned in: 1 - 3 weeks
1603284699352.png
: Hmm, loss of Z-Moves really hurted this thing as well, but the lost of HP Ice made it better. The metagame is currently full of stuff like Blaziken and Cinderace that it can take on, though Pokemon like Naga and Kyurem will be problematic for it. I'll say 50/50. I wouldn't be surprised if it managed to stay, but I wouldn't be surprised if it had to go either.
Banned in: 2 months - never
1603284883767.png
: This will probably be too much. It is still insanely strong and versatile, and like Zyg the loss of HP Ice made it better. Then again, lots of stuff can check it. I still think that it will be much with its versatility, but maybe (maybe) it will stay. Probably won't tho.
Banned in: 1 - 2 months
1603285269125.png
: Average speed, average bulk, more Pokemon can check it... I still think it's way too strong and verstile. It lacks counters due to said versatility, and though it gained a few checks I think they are not enough.
Banned in: 2 weeks - 2 months

Frankly, I agree with Niko. Overloading stuff like this in OU is definately not healthy and gives it insane power creep. (See: the beginning of BW OU ban history, what with stuff like Darkrai, Deoxys-A, and Shaymin-S "given a chance")
 
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