DLC2 Crown Tundra Speculation Thread [SPOILERS]

[Talpr0ne]

Zamazenta-Crowned heavily, and I mean really heavily incentivizes stally passive playstyles due to its combination of speed and bulk making it unfeasible to contest offensively and I think it's the last thing anyone wants. It's not the unwallable kind of broken but it would clearly create a very toxic effect on the metagame.

Can we stop trying to replicate Kyurem-B? It was an one time aberration and probably a mistake in the long term at least in regards to gen 5. There is really no need to try to get more cover legendaries to fit in the tier. Again, OU needs more bans, not less.

 

[Missingno.1998]

I'm not a tier expert, but I did want to talk about Cresselia for a second.

Cresselia is widely known as one of the bulkiest mons in the entire game, especially outside of Ubers, and now it gains access to Cosmic Power, which allows it to increase both of its defenses in one turn, making it even harder to take down. On top of that, it also learns Stored Power, allowing it to take advantage of its stat increases and go ham on everything that isn't a Dark. The set I'm very excited to try is:

Cosmic Power / Stored Power / Moonblast or Charged Beam / Moonlight

With its great bulk, it can switch in and set up on quite a very different mons, then start blasting away with Stored Power. It is also in a decent speed tier, allowing it to hit most Haze mons before it gets Hazed (particularly Toxapex, which is weak to Psychic). I opted for Moonblast to stop Dark types who are immune to Stored Power, but you could also run Charged Beam to further increase Stored Power's power and hit Steel types for neutral damage. Some checks I see for this, however, are Unaware Clefable and any Steel types with good Special Defense. Curious to see how good this set will be.

 

[CreamyGlasses]

Most of the discussion imo is about Zamazenta-Crowned, who is bulkier and has steel-typing but can't hold an item, which means it gets no recovery and no method of breaking through walls apart from sub-howl (oh no what set have i created)

Doesn't matter. Smogon doesn't force pokes to run items and shove them into lower tiers. Look at garchomp mega gen 7. Useless speculation, or at least hardly relevant.

 

[Sultan]

Doesn't matter. Smogon doesn't force pokes to run items and shove them into lower tiers. Look at garchomp mega gen 7. Useless speculation, or at least hardly relevant.

Silvallies holding certain Memories are allowed in tiers where Silvallies holding other items are banned

 

[Dr. Mint]

I'm not a tier expert, but I did want to talk about Cresselia for a second.

Cresselia is widely known as one of the bulkiest mons in the entire game, especially outside of Ubers, and now it gains access to Cosmic Power, which allows it to increase both of its defenses in one turn, making it even harder to take down. On top of that, it also learns Stored Power, allowing it to take advantage of its stat increases and go ham on everything that isn't a Dark. The set I'm very excited to try is:

Cosmic Power / Stored Power / Moonblast or Charged Beam / Moonlight

With its great bulk, it can switch in and set up on quite a very different mons, then start blasting away with Stored Power. It is also in a decent speed tier, allowing it to hit most Haze mons before it gets Hazed (particularly Toxapex, which is weak to Psychic). Some checks I see for this, however, are Unaware Clefable and any Steel types with good Special Defense. Curious to see how good this set will be.

Only hangup I can see initially is the occasional Toxic, especially if this set gets too popular for its own good and people learn how to play around it. Also Urshifu-S's Wicked Blow, which has a bit over 50% chance to OHKO if it's Adamant and Choice Banded VS a Max Defense Cress. But that is quite an interesting set, ngl.

 

[Joseph Gomes]

Doesn't matter. Smogon doesn't force pokes to run items and shove them into lower tiers. Look at garchomp mega gen 7. Useless speculation, or at least hardly relevant.

Zamazenta-C and Zamazenta-H aren't even the same mons, they have different BST, typing and movepool (Hero can't learn Behemoth Bash). They are not same mon where one of them is holding an item.

 

[DrPumpkinz]

I'm not a tier expert, but I did want to talk about Cresselia for a second.

Cresselia is widely known as one of the bulkiest mons in the entire game, especially outside of Ubers, and now it gains access to Cosmic Power, which allows it to increase both of its defenses in one turn, making it even harder to take down. On top of that, it also learns Stored Power, allowing it to take advantage of its stat increases and go ham on everything that isn't a Dark. The set I'm very excited to try is:

Cosmic Power / Stored Power / Moonblast or Charged Beam / Moonlight

With its great bulk, it can switch in and set up on quite a very different mons, then start blasting away with Stored Power. It is also in a decent speed tier, allowing it to hit most Haze mons before it gets Hazed (particularly Toxapex, which is weak to Psychic). I opted for Moonblast to stop Dark types who are immune to Stored Power, but you could also run Charged Beam to further increase Stored Power's power and hit Steel types for neutral damage. Some checks I see for this, however, are Unaware Clefable and any Steel types with good Special Defense. Curious to see how good this set will be.

Stored Power seems good, but I think Calm Mind + max Defense investment would be better.

Doesn't matter. Smogon doesn't force pokes to run items and shove them into lower tiers. Look at garchomp mega gen 7. Useless speculation, or at least hardly relevant.

The difference is that Mega Garchomp is a mid-battle transformation, so allowing Mega Garchomp without also allowing regular Garchomp would be literally impossible without hacking. The legendary doggos work more like Silvally, in that their form change is completely outside of battle. And while regular Silvally is PUBL, some other Silvally types like Bug are PU. In other words, Smogon forced Silvally to run an item and shoved it in a lower tier.

 

[readytolose]

Stupid Idea.

- Adamant choice band close combat 2hkos corv guaranteed after rocks.
- Can pull the same trick with pex if you use psychic fangs. Doesn't even need rocks to guarantee if you use wild charge.
- This thing isnt a little fast, its 138 base speed fast. Adamant zamazenta outspeeds jolly cinderace. Can ouspeed koko if jolly as well.
- All out attacking CB sets dont have as dire a movepool as you may think. Stab CC + coverage for fairies, poisons, and psychics.
- Insane bulk, 325/266/266 uninvited. Gets a free +1 defense too. lives CB urshifu CC.
252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Close Combat vs. +1 0 HP / 4 Def Zamazenta: 261-307 (80.3 - 94.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO.
East clef moonblast too 0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zamazenta: 174-206 (53.5 - 63.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Thing is broken, maybe test but it'll get banned anyways

Did you actually read my post or just the title? These are just a bunch of factoids about the mon. I pre-emptively address most of these points in my post, but I'll do it again anyways to defend my position. For one, yes, it 2HKOs Corviknight with CC. Which is unsurprising, Corviknight is not a check to any Fighting type in OU. Most of the counterplay to Fighting types in OU can beat Zamazenta, though, and new mons are coming with DLC that can beat it as well. Yes, it 2HKOs Toxapex, but it needs to predict and lock itself into an otherwise weak coverage move to do so, unlike Urshifu who can just use its STAB. It's much easier to pivot around because of this. Yeah, it's very fast. But it's still slower than Dragapult and Pheromosa, and slower than Tapu Koko and only tying with Torn-T and Naganadel if Adamant. Imo it can't really afford to run anything besides Jolly because of this, Tapu Koko is just too big a threat to ignore. It has coverage, sure, but its coverage is not strong enough to beat certain things. I think the premiere set would end up being CC Wild Charge Ice Fang Iron Head, just cause the Flying types check it so well, and even then there's still stuff it can't beat. And I mentioned how it's so prediction reliant. And yeah, it lives a CC from Urshifu.... but you say that like it's a bad thing? Urshifu has like no switch-ins, only checks, and having something that can pivot in on it and check it offensively is a good thing imo. You could say it's "broken checking broken" but being able to check arguably broken mons like Urshifu isn't the main reason I think Zamazenta should be tested. The main reason is because I think it (Zamazenta) might not be broken, full stop.

Zamazenta-Crowned heavily, and I mean really heavily incentivizes stally passive playstyles due to its combination of speed and bulk making it unfeasible to contest offensively and I think it's the last thing anyone wants. It's not the unwallable kind of broken but it would clearly create a very toxic effect on the metagame.

Can we stop trying to replicate Kyurem-B? It was an one time aberration and probably a mistake in the long term at least in regards to gen 5. There is really no need to try to get more cover legendaries to fit in the tier. Again, OU needs more bans, not less.

I kinda disagree with this. I feel like we should be opening up the discussion as much as possible. There is nothing inherently "wrong" with box legendaries in OU, that is just an arbitrary label. I don't really see how Kyurem-B is a "mistake" either. Even if it is arguably broken in gen 5, there's nothing wrong with testing it the generation it debuted. Plus, this new DLC feels like the start of a new generation anyways since so much is changing. Kyurem-B ended up balanced in OU in gen 6 and 7 (again, arguably, Z-freeze shock was kinda nutty) and only was re-banned cause things shifted so much in gen 8, and now it's being given another chance, too. If things shift for something we unban (for instance if we unban Zamazenta), we'll re-evaluate at a later date. People shouldn't be opposed to trialing mons in OU at the start of a generation, you get stuff like Greninja, who was banned in gen 6, or Thundurus who was banned in gen 5, and they ended up being balanced the generation after. Hang up your pre-conceptions and treat this new DLC more like the start of a new generation, since it brings so much new change that it might as well be.


I might make a sequel to my "Unban Zamazenta" post later on discussing Zamazenta-C, but I'm still sort of forming an opinion on it first and need to give it more thought. I see now that it can be tiered separately from its base form, since it's an out-of-battle transformation, appears on team preview in its crowned form, and is more analogous to Arceus or Silvally forms (who are all tiered separately). I haven't decided yet whether this thing would even be worth testing in OU, just need to think on it more.

 

[IBM]

When ou tests out genesect again

 

[shadowpea]

God did I forget Dracozolt is getting Sand Rush. Looking forward to use it with Ttar. Sand Rush Bolt Beak is going to be absolutely insane!

...maybe not. There's still excadrill competing for that role (and it is immune to sandstorm). Feel me to correct me.

 

[Dr. Mint]

I suppose I'll wanna throw my two cents in regarding Zamazenta, since we're talking about it. I'm kind of on the fence about it in either form in OU, partially because, for all the talk of how other Pokemon can survive its STABS and coverage and how it has no reliable recovery, I haven't really noticed any calculations about what it can survive (maybe somebody posted some and I totally missed them, in which case, my b) and I'm a taaad worried about the potential for that thing to be annoying and busted with Wish support. I'm too lazy to actually run the calcs myself at the moment, however, so that concern might be a non-factor in the grand scheme of things. Paradoxically, I suppose stall getting even more prominent than it already is might be the more primary worry I also have but stall seems to be here to stay anyways since we're admittedly more quick to call for the suspect test and ban of offensively overpowering mons than we are of mons that are just super hard to kill (something I am QUITE guilty of myself currently) which is probably its own discussion that I'm sure someone would raise good points with me about.

Despite those concerns, I personally not opposed to at least testing the doggo in OU. I can understand and on some level agree with the criticism that it might be an attempt to recreate Kyurem-B but, on the other hand, it's sad when a Pokemon is trapped in a tier they can't do anything in but not being allowed in the tier below because they're too good and poor Zamazenta hasn't even had the chance to test that. The same can be said for other Ubers, sure, and I'm not sure I'd wanna test every single uber in OU just cuz they're not very good in the above tier but I at least can get behind Zamazenta getting that treatment... after the metagame calms down during the Crown Tundra, of course. I mean, things are gonna be hectic enough as it is.

So says me, the rando with no credentials who tends to be a windbag because he thinks he knows better. lol

God did I forget Dracozolt is getting Sand Rush. Looking forward to use it with Ttar. Sand Rush Bolt Beak is going to be absolutely insane!

...maybe not. There's still excadrill competing for that role (and it is immune to sandstorm). Feel me to correct me.

Sand Rush Pokemon don't take Sandstorm damage even if their typing would suggest they would. So no worries, at least Dracozolt has that going for it. lol

 

[Monky25]

I think despite whether we believe zamazenta-c will be broken or not, the majority do want to see some sort of test for it in OU. I do believe we should explore how it performs once dlc clears up and we have a free month in OU, but for now the discussion kinda should be held off of until the tier clears up a bit.

OU players after dealing with genesect and landorus-i again (sorry for hopping on meme train i just had to do it)

 

[Vert]

y'all should consider freeing darkrai too

 

[readytolose]

y'all should consider freeing darkrai too

It's not confirmed in the DLC but if it was I'd say yeah absolutely give it a try. Its Speed tier, while still good is not as impressive nowadays and lacking Z-moves make it less consistent as a sweeper. Plus Magearna is being freed which is one of its best checks

 

[Martin]

A zama meta sounds lime it’d be extremely warped around zama lol

 

[Joseph Gomes]

A zama meta sounds lime it’d be extremely warped around zama lol

Not really since it's mediocre as a wallbreaker and has zero recovery which is mandatory for stall/walls. Zamazenta-Crowned isn't good at anything really.

 

[Rarycaris]

only was re-banned cause things shifted so much in gen 8

I think it was less the meta around it and more because Kyu-B itself was massively buffed in ways that negated the egregious flaw that made it OU-worthy to begin with.

Nowadays, if Kyurem-B were OU worthy, then I would expect Kyurem-W to be aswell, which I think we can safely say is absurd when it can lose 40 points of base special attack, Mold Breaker and strong fire coverage and still be really good in OU.

 

[taziathegreat]

I think it was less the meta around it and more because Kyu-B itself was massively buffed in ways that negated the egregious flaw that made it OU-worthy to begin with.

Nowadays, if Kyurem-B were OU worthy, then I would expect Kyurem-W to be aswell, which I think we can safely say is absurd when it can lose 40 points of base special attack, Mold Breaker and strong fire coverage and still be really good in OU.

I think you’re under estimating the difference in their coverage options.

icicle spear still isn’t a good move

 

[DrPumpkinz]

I think it was less the meta around it and more because Kyu-B itself was massively buffed in ways that negated the egregious flaw that made it OU-worthy to begin with.

Nowadays, if Kyurem-B were OU worthy, then I would expect Kyurem-W to be aswell, which I think we can safely say is absurd when it can lose 40 points of base special attack, Mold Breaker and strong fire coverage and still be really good in OU.

Even with Dragon Dance in its toolbox, I don't think that holds a candle to better STABs (Ice Beam, Freeze Dry, and Draco vs Spear, Outrage, and Claw) and better coverage (Fire, Ground, and Fighting vs Electric).

 

[Fusion Flare]

Even with Dragon Dance in its toolbox, I don't think that holds a candle to better STABs (Ice Beam, Freeze Dry, and Draco vs Spear, Outrage, and Claw) and better coverage (Fire, Ground, and Fighting vs Electric).

Kyurem-B’s only phys fighting move is Press which doesn’t even use its ATK

 

[Denial]

Hello. Not your usual OU player here but i wanted to make a post since ive been playing a bunch of games (of course without the new legendary birds trio and Calyrex, but its all speculation still) and to pass time since im currently waiting for something. Ill first cover the of course good mons, and then ill talk about what i believe could be underated picks.

Zygarde

While people argue that the lose of Z-Moves nerfed it, i dont really think its true at all. The removal of Z-Moves make dealing with this Pokemon's bulk even more annoying and, to be honest, the most broken set has always been Glare + Sub (with Gliscor not in the tier Toxic may be good too), which i believe is still stupid and too hard to deal with even now. Removal of Hidden Power just buffed it too, although some Pokemon can adapt to it like Tangrowth + Grass Knot to break the sub. All and all, i think Zygarde will most likely be too good again.

U-turn machines

With the loss of Z-Moves, Pheromosa lost one of his best sets in Quiver Dance, as i dont think it will be good at all without them. On the other hand, it now gained boots, which boostes its longevity and allows it to spam U-turn almost unpunished. It also just gained Close Combat, which means missing with High Jump Kick isnt a problem anymore. Its almost unmatched speed makes it a great pick in most teams, and carries extra Hazards control with Rapid Spin, if ever necessary. Beast Boost also allows it to snowball very easily if setted up correctly, which i dont believe its hard with its spammable U-turn. Same goes for Genesect here, Download + Choice Scarf is still crazy stupid and makes its U-turn one of the strongest in the game, add this with coverage, usable defensive utily with great typing and decent bulk, and Genesect is just stupid again. I didnt explore other sets as i didnt play too much, like Rock Polish / Autotomize or Choice Band / Specs, but this just adds on how stupid this Pokemon can be, and why i believe its not gonna stay for long.

Tapus

Not gonna talk too much about those since i believe its pretty obvious what they do, but i will spend a word on them. Tapu Koko is great, with Boots it now has more longevity, and access to Rising Voltage and Close Combat make for great coverage. Its important to remember that Rising Voltage is boosted only versus grounded opponents, so pretty sad calcs like this 252 SpA Tapu Koko Rising Voltage (70 BP) vs. 252 HP / 228+ SpD Corviknight in Electric Terrain: 198-234 (49.5 - 58.5%) -- 60.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery may show up, but other than that its probably gonna be still a great Pokemon. Tapu Lele is a no brainer, Expanding Force + Moonblast to punish Dark Types is just way beyond stupid. Tapu Bulu is interesting, it has access to good Fighting coverage with Close Combat and has now priority, but will the bulk and secondary typing make it better than Rillaboom? To this i still cant answer, but i feel like it may be enough to give it a niche over the gorilla. Tapu Fini cant Defog now, as it would remove its own Misty Terrain, but it now has access to Flip Turn and potentially Calm Mind + Draining Kiss. Support sets like Knock Off + Nature Madness + Flip Turn sound decent enough to me, but i feel like its gonna require more testing.

Landorus-Incarnate

Still stupid and almost impossible to switch into, i really wish it wasnt unbanned to begin with but here we are. It also has Knock Off if it feels like removing items from opposing special walls.

Tornadus-Therian

Boots make it impossible to wear down with hazards, and the support set + now access to Nasty Plot make it even better than ever. Wouldnt be surprised to see it gone, but not on the near future.

Dont really know about Blaziken, Latios and Naganadel, just gonna avoid talking about them for now. Might edit later.

Most of the other Pokemon are mostly just gonna look like SM, talking mainly about Kartana, Garchomp, Heatran, Suicune, Buzzwole, Zapdos ecc.. Heatran has Scorching Sands now, which can be a nice option on the trapper set. Offensive Zapdos might be a thing with Hurricane and Weather Ball? No idea.

Now, for more underrated picks, i wanted to talk about mainly 4 Pokemon.

yup

Im honestly surprised to see very few discussion about those 2. The old SM RU core may have a solid niche in OU now. What i believe gives Nidoqueen a better niche over Nidoking its her bulk, making it a great check to most offensive threats, being able to actually trade if ever necessary. The high BP of her moves should be enough to make her do damage, and the coverage is crazy good. As for Cresselia, i believe its an amazing one-slot check to most of the dangerous threats of the metagame, like Tapu Koko, Tapu Lele, Zygarde, Landorus-Incarnate, Blaziken and Garchomp. It also has access to the broken Yellow Magic (Thunder Wave), which alredy is enough to give a Pokemon some viability.

(Rapid Strike)
Both of those Pokemon are alredy technically OU, but i can see them having still a solid niche in the DLC2 meta. Rhyperior still would do what it does now, tanking hits while hitting hard asf. It now has more Pokemon to potentially abuse like Tapu Koko, Zapdos and Victini, and its bulk + Solid Rock makes it a decent check to almost everything Physical. Giving a free turn to Lele is no good, but thats not gonna stay long... right? As for Rapid Strike, i believe its viability is mainly gonna be boosted by the return of Heatran. Heatran being able to trap Toxapex is a huge deal for it, as at that point it can most likely click its STAB freely. Aqua Jet is also a decent priority, hitting Blaziken, Tapu Koko, Landorus-Incarnate and Pheromosa better than Single Strike can, but i dont believe Urshifu RS + Heatran is gonna be some gamebreaking duo.

After all this text, if i had to make my personal tier list for DLC2, it would probably look like this:

Only included what i believe will have a real usable niche in the meta, most of the other Pokemon will most likely never see the light of OU. Tried to make this as ordered as possible, but im not really sure of where i placed some Pokemon.
Note: I count the S rank as "Ubers". Since there are no options for the Therian Versions, i would place Tornadus Therian in bottom S, Landorus Therian behind Heatran, and Thundurus-Therian above Dragonite.

Very late at night so i might have made some grammatical errors, pardon me for that. This is all i had to say, have fun with DLC2!

 

[Spyro]

God did I forget Dracozolt is getting Sand Rush. Looking forward to use it with Ttar. Sand Rush Bolt Beak is going to be absolutely insane!

...maybe not. There's still excadrill competing for that role (and it is immune to sandstorm). Feel me to correct me.

Any Pokemon with sand rush is naturally immune to sandstorm. They're really not competing against each other, they actually have some decent synergy only sharing Ground as a weakness.

 

[BreloomBoyBouttaSpore]

which I think we can safely say is absurd when it can lose 40 points of base special attack

Doesnt it lose 50 points?

 

[Empress Mobile]

Not really since it's mediocre as a wallbreaker and has zero recovery which is mandatory for stall/walls. Zamazenta-Crowned isn't good at anything really.

It's bad in Ubers but that's not even a little relevant. It strikes me as obviously stupid broken for OU. Its Speed tier is fantastic for OU. Coupled with its amazing bulk, good typing and Defense boost and it's incredibly hard to revenge kill. It's clearly meant to be a tank yet it's absurdly fast for one. I think calls to test it are misguided. It has too many switch ins and can punish bad reads by firing off an attack or setting up.

 

[Caionamax]

Imo QBs after 2-3 days of playing doesn't really seem like enough time to evaluate but I guess that really does depend on outliners.

Some weeks ago: the council is too slow, the council will must do quick bans, the suspect rae meh
Today: quick bans are too fast, just wait
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