Don't Use This, Use That!

sam-testings

What a beautiful face, I have found in this place
Shamelessly stolen from the LC one which was stolen from the old LC one which was stolen from the RU one which I assume was also stolen from somewhere.
co hosted with TSR



Don't Use This, Use That!
UU Edition

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The purpose of this thread is to discuss common sets that are seen as overrated and suggest better alternatives. There are a lot of Pokemon and sets in the usage stats that are ineffective, and we should raise awareness that these sets are not optimal. Furthermore, there are a few Pokemon that don't even deserve to be in the tier because they simply do not work effectively. There are certain Pokemon being used on the ladder in a way that reduces their viability. For example, Max Defense Max HP Gliscor is a suboptimal set, as Gliscor already has good Defense and should invest into Special Defense more to allow it to check Special Attacking threats better. You can also suggest alternative Pokemon that outclass another in a certain role, such as Choice Band Zygarde 10% instead of Choice Band Flygon. If you think a Pokemon or set is wrongfully being accused of being ineffective, you are encouraged to discuss why you think that way.

*Please do not use this thread to bash Pokemon. Instead, try to educate the playerbase and teach them what not to use. Any offensive posts will be deleted and potentially infracted.


Please format your posts like the example post below.



Don't Use: Choice Band Flygon

Flygon @ Choice Band
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Outrage
- U-turn
- Dragon Claw



Use: Choice Band Zydog

Zygarde-10% @ Choice Band
Ability: Aura Break
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Thousand Arrows
- Outrage
- Extreme Speed
- Toxic

Why it's better:

Choice Band Flygon is heavily outclassed by Zygarde 10% due to the move Thousand Arrows. Being locked into Earthquake allows Flying-types and Pokemon with Levitate to come in for free, but Thousand Arrows can actually hit these Pokemon, preventing them for coming in for free. Additionally, Zydog gets Extreme Speed which allows it to pick off frail or weakened Pokemon, something that Flygon cannot do. Finally, Zydog sits at a higher speed tier than Flygon does, outspeeding large threats like Latias, Gengar, and speed tieing with Raikou. Even though Flygon is able to U-turn, something that Zydog is not able to do, this is not enough to give it a niche in UU.
 
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Don't Use: Lycanroc

Lycanroc @ Life Orb
Ability: Sand Rush
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Stone Edge
- Accelerock
- Crunch


Use: Stoutland

Stoutland @ Choice Band
Ability: Sand Rush
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Return
- Crunch
- Superpower / Fire Fang
- Facade / Pursuit

Why it's better: I'm doing this because I've seen seen people using Lycanroc over Stoutland as a sand abuser on ladder, even if it's largely outclassed by Stoutland. Lycanroc can hit stuff like Mega Aerodactyl harder, yeah, but it's much easier to revenge kill due to its bad bulk and really bad defensive typing. Its lack of coverage doesn't help it at all since it can't hit Cobalion and even Keldeo hard, and it's too frail to set up Swords Dance. While priority attackers such as Crawdaunt and Scizor can stop Lycanroc, they can't stop Stoutland. Stoutland has good coverage options in Crunch, Superpower and Fire Fang, a stupid Attack stat while holding Choice Band, a decent bulk, and a really good offensive typing. Stoutland can punch holes on opposing teams thanks to the aforementioned qualities, which means stuff like Cobalion, Scizor and Keldeo can't stop it like they do with Lycanroc.
 

HotFuzzBall

fuzzy-chan \(ㆁヮㆁ✿)
is an Artist

Don't Use: Assault Vest Primarina

Primarina @ Assault Vest
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA
Timid Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Moonblast
- Psychic
- Scald



Use: Assault Vest Slowking

Slowking @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 248 HP / 172 Def / 84 SpA
Modest Nature
- Scald
- Future Sight
- Fire Blast
- Dragon Tail / Ice Beam

Why it's better: I remember there was a time where a good amount of people asked whether or not Primarina was a viable Assault Vest user. Anyways, Primarina on the surface looks like it would be an extremely great Assault Vest User. The infamous Water/Fairy typing, expansive movepool, and already amazing natural special defense makes it really tempting to make it a bulky goddess with Assault Vest. However, Primarina (think AV Goodra back in ORAS) not having a form of recovery makes AV Primarina easy to whittle down with status conditions / chip damage / entry hazards, due to its nature of wanting to switch in often to tank hits. If you are looking for a Pokemon with great natural special defense while still being able to hit decently hard, AV Slowking is your answer. Slowking is a much better use of Assault Vest mainly because of Regenerator, which allows it to switch in and out a lot more often since it is guaranteed some recovery. Slowking also has great natural bulk as well as a solid movepool, similarly to Primarina, so you are not missing out as much (maybe the Fairy-typing but w/e). Fyi, the EVs are tangible, this is just what I like to run since it avoids the 2hko from Mega Aerodactyl's Stone Edge.
 
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TSR

⎛ ´●  ω ●` ⎞
is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
/me tries to breathe life back into our thread

Here's one I haven't seen too often luckily, but still think it deserves a mention:

Don't use:

Kommo-o @ Fightinium Z / Dragonium Z / Poisonium Z
Ability: Overcoat
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Outrage
- Sky Uppercut
- Poison Jab

Use instead:

Haxorus @ Dragonium Z / Poisonium Z
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Outrage
- Earthquake
- Poison Jab

Why it's better: Kommo-o's impressive 75/125/105 bulk may be appealing, as well as a useful resistance to Sucker Punch allowing it to check Bisharp. However, it often falls short in this regard due to its Fighting typing, being weak to common offensive types such as Flying, Psychic, as well as compounding its weakness to Fairy. Haxorus, while not being much more useful defensively, directly outclasses Kommo-o as a Dragon Dance user. Haxorus's monstrous 147 base Attack and acceptable 97 base Speed are direct upgrades to Kommo-o's 110 Attack and 85 Speed. In addition, Mold Breaker allows Haxorus to invalidate Unaware Quagsire and Clefable, being able to break past them easily as they no longer ignore Haxorus's attack boosts. To summarize: Haxorus's superior offensive stats and useful ability in Mold Breaker make it a much more potent sweeper than Kommo-o.
 

G-Luke

Grookey Gang Rise Up
is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributor
Moderator

Don't Use: Assault Vest Primarina

Primarina @ Assault Vest
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA
Timid Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Moonblast
- Psychic
- Scald


Use: Choice Specs Primarina

Primarina @ Choice Specs
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Moonblast
- Psychic
- Sparkling Aria / Energy Ball / Scald

Ive seen may AV Primarina sets running around, and quite frankly, they arent good. Now if you need an AV Water type, see HotFuzzBall's post above. But if you are that insistent on using Primarina, at least use it right.

Specs Primarina is one of the most threatening breakers in the tier, thanks to having an excellent Special attacking stat and high base power STABS to back it up. Its Hydro Pump is extremely hard to switch into, and anything that tries to gets bopped by its outstanding coverage options.
 
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Don't Use: Specs Sylveon



Sylveon @ Choice Specs
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Hyper Voice
- Psyshock
- Hidden Power Fire
- Shadow Ball

Use: Specs Primarina



Primarina @ Choice Specs
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Moonblast
- Psychic
- Scald

Sylveon is considerably outclassed in this meta, both by Clefable and the mon I listed to use instead. Primarina hits the same speed tier as Sylveon, while providing much better power than Sylveon on netural targets even with a Timid nature. It also has far better coverage and doesn't have to use Hidden Power to hit Fairy resists like Scizor. The typing also works out better defensively, considering that Primarina doesn't get as easily 2HKO'ed/OHKO'ed by (for instance) Scizor's Bullet Punch as Sylveon does. The only thing Sylveon has over Primarina is better special bulk (with that and lack of an Electric/Grass weakness making it easier to take on Raikou/Celebi), but that isn't enough to justify its use.
 
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Killintime

Time not so well spent
is a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnus

Don't Use:
Max physical defence CM Slowking
Slowking @ Leftovers
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Scald
- Psyshock
- Slack Off


Use: Mixed defences CM Slowking
Slowking @ Leftovers
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 176 Def / 80 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Psyshock
- Calm Mind
- Slack Off

Why it's better: One of the most common misconceptions is that people think that you should be running slowking like a slowbro when in fact using a sp.def spread slowbro can actually do the same thing max physical defence slowking does but better. Using slowking>slowbro should only be done when you want an effective special pivot that can always switch into special attacks from Nidoqueen, Infernape, Keldeo, Volcanion, etc. This spread still allows you to check most physical mons that you resist at the same time making it an effective specially defensive CM win condition over slowbro who is an effective physically defensive CM win condition.
Nidos:
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 80+ SpD Slowking: 156-185 (39.5 - 46.9%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Raikou:
252 SpA Raikou Thunderbolt vs. +1 252 HP / 80+ SpD Slowking: 140-168 (35.5 - 42.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
 

TSR

⎛ ´●  ω ●` ⎞
is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon

Don't Use: Assault Vest Primarina

Primarina @ Assault Vest
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA
Timid Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Moonblast
- Psychic
- Scald


Use: Choice Specs Primarina

Primarina @ Choice Specs
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA
Timid Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Moonblast
- Psychic
- Sparkling Aria / Energy Ball / Scald

Ive seen may AV Primarina sets running around, and quite frankly, they arent good. Now if you need an AV Water type, see HotFuzzBall's post above. But if you are that insistent on using Primarina, at least use it right.

Specs Primarina is one of the most threatening breakers in the tier, thanks to having an excellent Special attacking stat and high base power STABS to back it up. Its Hydro Pump is extremely hard to switch into, and anything that tries to gets bopped by its outstanding coverage options.
I think HotFuzzBall already gave a decent explanation on why to not use AV Primarina and what can be used instead. Specs is indeed the superior set, but that should be common knowledge after a new player learns to not use Assault Vest. Also, Sparkling Aria and Energy Ball are both pretty useless moves / coverage for Primarina, so Scald shouldn't be slashed with any other moves. Lastly, Primarina runs max speed, not HP. You could fix this to be a simple "use max speed prima > max hp", and it'd be alright.

e @ below: had no idea Sparkling Aria hit behind subs, ignore statement. Energy Ball still seems inferior, Moonblast can 2HKO Swampert either way, and Energy Ball doesn't have much usefulness after that. Also I understand the point you were trying to convey with the post now, so I approve.
 
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G-Luke

Grookey Gang Rise Up
is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributor
Moderator
I think HotFuzzBall already gave a decent explanation on why to not use AV Primarina and what can be used instead. Specs is indeed the superior set, but that should be common knowledge after a new player learns to not use Assault Vest. Also, Sparkling Aria and Energy Ball are both pretty useless moves / coverage for Primarina, so Scald shouldn't be slashed with any other moves. Lastly, Primarina runs max speed, not HP. You could fix this to be a simple "use max speed prima > max hp", and it'd be alright.
The point was to show how to use Primarina effectively, and to prevent them using AV in the first place, so my post had no fault there.

Energy Ball hits other Water types, specifically Swampert, harder than anything else it can run. Also Sparkling Aria is infact an excellent option to run, as not only does it provide alterative Great BP Water STAB if one doesnt wish to lock into Hydro Pump, but more importantly, it goes through Substitutes, which helps it break Substitute users much easier.

Though the stat spread was an error on my part, and will be editted.
 

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