DOU Analysis Discussion Thread - Full Dex in OP!

Memoric

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Hey guys :)!

This thread will be primarily for discussion of making a change to an uploaded analysis, making a case for a Pokemon to have an analysis, and possibly giving a Pokemon a revamp. You may also ask questions about analysis here. This may include the following:
  • Possibly adding or updating a set
  • Changing or adding slashes to moves
  • Revamping an analysis to fit the metagame more
As long as what you're going to say entails something about the analysis themselves, you should probably post here!

When making a case for a Pokemon that's not listed in the reservations thread, make sure that it's: a) not horrible; b) isn't actually outclassed c) actually has a decent enough use. There will be times that we miss on a Pokemon in the reservations thread; an example of this would be Virizion. If you think a Pokemon is worth it, post here! But make sure to have some backing to your claims.

If you need help with your analysis in general, feel free to ask QC members by going to the Smogon Doubles room in PS!. Note that not everyone in the team can be in PS! so posting here can let every one of us see any thoughts and ideas.

Note: This is not the thread for reserving analyses! Go to this thread instead. Also, talks about analyses still being written up should go to their respective threads (If you're making a suggestion to Kangaskhan and it's still being written up, post in its thread)!

Another note: If a change you're going to suggest is merely fixing wording, typos, or the like, post in the Small Objective Changes thread instead.

On another note, this thread will be heavily moderated. Irrelevant posts will be deleted and repeat offenders will be infracted.

Relevant links:
List of Pokemon with completed Doubles analyses (102 Pokemon as of September 11, 2016):
 
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Pastelle

we're all star stuff
Okay so under the reservation thread the only two mons available that are listed are Conkeldurr and Raikou. I can see Conkeldurr getting updated with new spreads and new Checks & Counters, but does Raikou really need an analysis in the first place?

I've only seen one DOU team use it to some success, and the rest have been on DUU. Imo its super niche and about as viable as Mega Manectric. I don't see a reason to ever use it over Thundy, Zapdos, or any Rotom forms.

Aren't there any more mons that need analyses?
 

Bughouse

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Raikou is certainly usable, even if it's not used much. It's a good niche substitute if you need an Electric not weak to rock and ice like Thundurus. It also beats opposing Thundurus well.

As to the question of new analyses, we're coming up on the end of a generation. There needn't be a rush to do more if more isn't needed. But here are some possibilities, aside from what's already in progress:
Entei, Raichu, Meowstic, Crobat, and Liepard. I could maybe support any of these getting an analysis. Beyond that? Unlikely.
 

shaian

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of those i really only see entei and raichu used often enough to warrant an analysis. Crobat was seen in SPL once, though idk if it warrants an analysis on just that alone.
 

Memoric

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Entei and Raichu are worthwhile mons, so yeah they're cool. I could see Liepard getting an analysis actually but I'm not really sure on that one.

Raikou is cool/
 

Memoric

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Double-posting because this is really relevant, but we should really put up a set for LO SS Ludicolo. It's the new in-thing and it's p solid, and it plays a bit differently from AV; the fact that it doesn't have a set of its own is something we should change ;u;
 

shaian

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I can get behind that:

Ludicolo @ Life Orb
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Fake Out
- Hydro Pump
- Giga Drain
- Ice Beam

is the lo ludicolo spread I use, I assume it's more or less standard w/ possibly Protect being slashed behind Fake Out, unless anyone has a better one. Could probably just do a direct write on to the dex or something. Only a few changes to usage tips and set details are needed, Moves and Team Options are more or less the same as well so it wouldn't be much work. oLo
 

Memoric

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IMO Protect should be the main slash, not Fake Out. Ludicolo simply does not have raw bulk to get away with no Protect like Mega Kanga does. also lol @ fake out + LO damage. Fake Out shouldn't be slashed at all but that is more of my opinion.
 

Checkmater

a pinned butterfly is no butterfly at all
Running both is also cool but forces you to let Dragons such as Latios and hydrei to sit on you. Life orb ludicolo should have protect main slash imo, also maybe focus blast deserves an oo or a slash with ice beam
 

Memoric

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lol running both is a horrible idea. You miss out on all-important coverage, which is crucial when the turns Ludicolo can be effective (rain turns) is limited. Focus Blast also doesn't help Ludicolo hit anything of note except Ferrothorn while keeping coverage on Hydreigon, and Ice Beam's combined reliability and ability to check a wider range of threats (Drags and Grasses and stuff) is much better overall.
 

Bughouse

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Arcticblast

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Infernape is forced to run LO or lose guaranteed KOs on Kangaskhan and Aegislash. Scrafty has Drain Punch to alleviate LO recoil. Weavile probably shouldn't be running Fake Out with LO so it's a good thing that's not there!
 

Memoric

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The thing is, it need pretty much all of its coverage. Running no Protect for Fake Out on an offensive Pokemon not named Mega Kangaskhan can end up really badly, and running both means you give up on a crucial coverage move. Fake Out is hardly a necessity, but it's a good luxury to have; Protect is kinda needed for pretty much every reason we use Protect for.
 

talkingtree

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Doubles Captain
Hey everyone! I looked through the posted analyses and found a few notes I have for changes/updates that could be made, so let me know what you think!
Aegislash: Could use at least a mention of Germanslash (Wide Guard + Substitute), and maybe move LO into OO, since it's barely around anymore.

Bisharp: Focus Sash should probably be slashed with Life Orb on the main set, it's more viable than the analysis seems to show right now.

Breloom: Life Orb doesn't deserve a slash on the main set, and should probably be moved to OO, or at most a mention in Set Details. Jolly should also be slashed before Adamant, especially since Heatran spreads are continually getting faster to outspeed opposing Heatran.

Camerupt: Using 248 HP instead of 252 seems strange but I guess it's not a huge deal.

Charizard Y and Charizard X: Set convention dictates Protect should be the fourth slot but again, not a big deal.

Diancie: Life Orb regular Diancie should get a mention in OO as an offensive TR setter that hits even harder than Mega Diancie.

Dusclops: If there's a procedure for removing analyses this one should probably be taken down because Dusclops isn't relevant anymore.

Ferrothorn: Everything the current spread does is now obsolete (Memoric did I use the word correctly this time? n_n), so I'm proposing a switch to 252 HP / 148 Atk / 108 Def EVs, still with a Brave nature, which guarantees the KO on standard scarf Kyube. If anyone else uses another spread, I'm open to hearing it. Also, the spread mentions multiple times that Ferrothorn absorbs Will o Wisp from Jelli and Washtom and OHKOs with Power Whip, which is now untrue with the standard spreads and should be removed.

Gardevoir: Most that I've seen nowadays run bulkier spreads, which deserve at the least a mention in OO or Set Details. 72 HP / 108 Def / 220 SpA / 108 Spe / Modest lets Mega Garde survive Aegis Flash Cannon or Shadow Ball as well as LO Talon BB, outspeed base 70s, and dump the rest in SpA. Hidden Power [Ground] also deserves a mention, but I'll leave it up to C&C where to put that. If I were writing the analysis I'd slash it with Focus Blast, but I don't know if it's standard enough for that.

Goodra: Same as Dusclops, probably doesn't deserve to have an analysis.

Gyarados: The EV spread is outdated, 252 HP / 92 Atk / 120 Def / 44 Spe with an Impish nature outspeeds 0 speed Rotom formes and makes -1 Adamant Scarf Lando-T Rock Slide a 3HKO, with the rest in attack. And again I'd prefer Protect be in the fourth slot. The Mega set with Dragon Dance could also be moved into OO, since it's quite niche.

Heatran: Spread should be updated to 56 HP / 252 SpA / 200 Spe to outrun base 70s, since the old spread only outruns Bisharp, and very few Heatran are this slow nowadays.

Heracross: Surprised that this has an analysis, since neither the base form or the mega is on the viability rankings, but otherwise I guess it's fine.

Kingdra: Haven't used it, so no comment on the actual analysis, but Protect should be listed 4th.

Landorus-T: Life Orb deserves OO.

Metagross: 4th slot Protect yadda yadda.

Salamence: See above.

Talonflame: 252 Atk / 120 SpA / 136 Spe with a Naive nature could deserve Set Details or OO for the KO on Mega Metagross with Overheat.

Terrakion: See Metagross.

Thundurus: Fast attacker set should have Flash Cannon as a slash with Hidden Power Ice, and probably shouldn't have anything slashed with Protect except for potentially in set details. The two sets could also be switched in order to reflect which is more common nowadays.

Tyranitar: The only set I could see being potentially deserving of an analysis would be Mega Dragon Dance, so again if there's a protocol for removing analyses this one probably should be, since LO Mixed Ttar is far from viable right now.

Venusaur: Mega Venusaur's EV Spread should be 252 HP / 124 Def / 72 SpA / 60 Spe with a Bold Nature, since the current spread just outspeeds an outdated Washtom spread. The spread lives a LO Talonflame BB and outspeeds Scarf Lando-T under Tailwind, as well as all Rotom formes, with the rest dumped into SpA. I also personally would slash Leech Seed before Sleep Powder.

Volcarona: Life Orb deserves a mention somewhere for merit of OHKO'ing Lando, and I would switch the order of the two written sets. Giga Drain should also be slashed next to Bug Buzz instead of next to Protect on the QD set.

Whimsicott: Life Orb could be mentioned in OO for merit of reaching the KO on Mega Diancie with Energy Ball.

Zapdos: Spread could be updated to Kyle's spread, 252 HP / 36 Def / 176 SpA / 28 SpD / 16 Spe Modest. It gets the KO on Lando with HP Ice, which current spread does not, as well as being a bit bulkier than the current spread. And, again, Protect should be in 4th moveslot and (I think) slashed before Heat Wave.

A lot of these changes are fairly trivial, so if it doesn't merit a modification in the analysis because the standards shift so often, I understand.
 
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Memoric

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thetalkingtree here are my comments on the suggested changes

Aegi: okay
Bisharp: Focus Sash is slash-worthy
Breloom: An updated write-up is currently in the works lol
Camerupt: nbd
Diancie: While non-Mega Diancie is a shaky pick at best, I do think LO is a valid option on it. Will talk more about it though
Heatran: okay
Heracross: nbd
Landorus-T: okay
Talonflame: no lol
Thundurus: Why do we have Nasty Plot slashed rof. THAT'S so getting axed.
Tar: Same
Mega Venusaur: That spread's soooo changing lol. Will probs talk about this more though.
Volc: okay. It doesn't OHKO at +1 though, lol
Whimsi: not worth

Okay @ set convention shit. When it comes to the spreads we need to change (except Heatran since hey you're right #tbh), they're up for debate; for everybody's convenience, the mons in question are Ferrothorn, Gardevoir, Gyarados, and Mega Venusaur.

I don't know what we do with analysis about bad mons, so can't really comment on that. LETS AXE TTAR (except Mega DD which is a stretch too lel) AND MEGA GYARA THO HYPE HYPE HYPE

Some of these to be updated on-site soon!
 
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talkingtree

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On Volc: the two sets I've run are LO max SpA with Heat Wave and Sitrus Berry bulky with Fire Blast, both of which KO Lando at +1. I figure it's an important enough target to design around. Still don't know if that's something that needs changing, but that's my reasoning for saying LO.
 

Bughouse

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Memoric We're not going to remove analyses for meh mons like Hitmontop and Zygarde (much less Tyranitar which is way better than either). What we can do is leave them as is and maybe rewriting the overviews to be more honest if they're overselling the mons, and also adding more stuff to checks and counters so they look worse. Some of this has already happened iirc.
 

Checkmater

a pinned butterfly is no butterfly at all
uhhhhhh fuck scrafty got uploaded and everything but it still has "(such as?)" (which was a note by a gp person) in the uploaded analysis....

I would remove "such as" for rotom-wash and keldeo or something like that

lol that's so awk... sry frens
 

Checkmater

a pinned butterfly is no butterfly at all
hey three pairs of eyes looked over it and didn't spot it not my fault imo blame the bureaucracy
 

Memoric

babalik-balik ka rin
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You can't just deflect the blame when you're the writer of the analysis. If anything, you should've spotted it soon since you're the one who implemented the check in the first place lol.
 

Checkmater

a pinned butterfly is no butterfly at all
k im still retarded.

Raichu lives a spread charizrad heat wave, but in a later statement in the same section I say it needs focus sash to live heat wave. I think I mean overheat... or fire blast idk. Or that part could be removed entirely

sry for fucking up ;_;
 

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