Doubles Input - Tournament Directors Crying for Help!

[Sonuis]

With the release of Pokémon Lab, we need more doubles (NOT VGC) information for battling. This is especially important for the moment as there's a tournament being processed for doubles, but it is on hold. Given circumstances disable the TDs (Like myself) from making an absolute decision on what to do. So, we want your input right now to help the first "standard" doubles tournament to be held on Smogon using a simulator.

What strategies are commonly used in doubles? What pokémon are commonly found in doubles? What pokémon are generally frowned upon in doubles? WHAT DO YOU THINK? TELL US! This way we can get something of a temporary ban list of sorts. Well, very temporary.

Edit: Any methods of developing a ban list is worth mentioning too!

 

[undisputed]

I personally would like to see a doubles mode with normal uber pokemon banned. I don't really have a basis for saying that other than I dislike the centralization of Ubers (like you have to have abomasnow to control kyogre, etc). Just my idea. I am no expert in this subject, but I am usually discouraged from playing/learning VGC because of the gimmicky strategies that Uber Pokemon bring.

 

[Sixonesix]

I suppose what makes doubles different from singles is the general preference for Pokemon with few weaknesses, good defenses, and that can hit hard right off the bat (rather than needing a turn or two to set up at the risk of getting double-attacked). For this reason, Pokemon like Metagross, Zapdos, and Latios are used a lot while Pokemon like Gyarados and Salamence are either under used or serve supporting roles rather than roles as sweepers. Rain Dance and Trick Room teams are pretty popular, because even though they require a turn to set up, they can power up every Pokemon on the team for four or more turns. Often, that's enough to win a battle.


On another note, I'd like it if we used the Flat Battle, Double Cup mode from HGSS as a base for our doubles metagame.
The rules for this mode are:
- 4 Pokemon per team
- Species Clause active
- Item Clause active
- Special Pokemon (base 680+ legends, event legends) banned
- lv. 50 flat (Pokemon lv. 51 and higher are autoleveled to 50 for the battle, Pokemon lv. 50 and below are untouched)

Basically it's an "updated" version of the VGC 09 format, such that Tyranitar and moves learned only after lv. 50 (e.g. Magma Storm on Heatran) are now allowed.

I know that not allowing Mew, Celebi, Jirachi, etc. is probably unappealing, but let's face it: almost none of us have much experience using them in doubles to begin with. And considering how little time we're going to have with this format, I'd prefer to not spend it all in a testing phase trying to figure out what to ban and what to keep. Instead, we could have something competitive to play as quickly as possible.

 

[Venser]

http://qbone.org/forums/index.php?/forum/54-doubles-project/


Some good work has been done here.

 

[Redtype]

On another note, I'd like it if we used the Flat Battle, Double Cup mode from HGSS as a base for our doubles metagame.
The rules for this mode are:
- 4 Pokemon per team
- Species Clause active
- Item Clause active
- Special Pokemon (base 680+ legends, event legends) banned
- lv. 50 flat (Pokemon lv. 51 and higher are autoleveled to 50 for the battle, Pokemon lv. 50 and below are untouched)

Seconding this. Doubles played under our standard Singles rules are pretty terrible in my expierence.

I think the main differences between Doubles and Singles are a) general lack of defensive playstyles. Everyone and their mother playes offence. b) team synergy playing even more important role. Every Pokemon has to support it's team in some way or another; standalone sweepers, such as Breloom in Singles, are (again, IME) nearly non-existent. c) lack of entry hazards, which makes many SR weak Pokemon viable.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[Treadshot A1]

On another note, I'd like it if we used the Flat Battle, Double Cup mode from HGSS as a base for our doubles metagame.
The rules for this mode are:
- 4 Pokemon per team
- Species Clause active
- Item Clause active
- Special Pokemon (base 680+ legends, event legends) banned
- lv. 50 flat (Pokemon lv. 51 and higher are autoleveled to 50 for the battle, Pokemon lv. 50 and below are untouched)

Thirded, except that i think Item Clause is a bit unnecessary, though i don't really mind either way.

I'd also like to say that while its not exactly the most competitive strategy, the old Zapdos/Garchomp (or it's crappier alternative, Zapdos/Vire) also works for me, EQ and Discharge for the ability to dent all of your opponent's pokemon, only Gliscor is immune to both and actually worth using. Only problem is it leaves you weak to Ice, and could be considered 'cheap' by some people.

Otherwise the other option is, like others have said, Rain/TR teams. Rain is quick to setup up, and with Damp Rock lasts up to 8 bloody turns. TR is the same, and also helps counter Rain, should you not have already been annihilated.

 

[Havak]

If you're looking to create a 'Standard Doubles' tournament, then I'd suggest starting with the following Pokémon banned:

Mewtwo, Lugia, Ho-Oh, Kyogre, Groudon, Rayquaza, Deoxys (All Formes), Dialga, Palkia, Giratina (All Formes), Darkrai, Arceus.

Personally, I'd ban Mew, Celebi, Jirachi, Manaphy, and Shaymin (All Formes).

Basically agreeing with Sixonesix. Though in the Flat Battle, Phione is banned on the basis of it being technically an Event Legend, when it's obvious it doesn't need to be. But since I highly doubt anyone would use it unless we created a Tier List and had an NU category, having it banned and just simulating the Local Wireless Flat Battles in HeartGold / SoulSilver seems like a good idea.

Item Clause would be something I'd employ as a standard rule for once. In Doubles, more items are generally useful, and not just useful, but often required. Items such as Lum Berry, Focus Sash, Sitrus Berry, Chesto Berry, any -type resist Berry, Life Orb, Choice Items etc are just so worthwhile, it's not as simple as slapping Leftovers on half of your Pokémon. Soul Dew should be banned, though.

The only other thing is allowing the battles to be level 100 instead of 50, but I don't think many people would be too fussed, and just stick to the general level 50 rule already used.

The final major decision is.. Do we take six Pokémon but only use four (like in Flat Battle and Battle Revolution Doubles matches), or do we go ahead and use all six?

In terms of strategies, you're looking at just general teams with good Pokémon (GoodStuffs), Rain Dance, and Trick Room as the three most prominent all-out strategies. After that, it's just about synergy and combo's using abilities, resistances, and set up, making use of Fake Out etc. Protect and Explosion as well.

Trick Room

Users: Dusknoir, Bronzong, Cresselia
Abusers: Smeargle, Metagross, Snorlax, Tyranitar, Machamp, Abomasnow, Lapras, Camerupt, Rhyperior

Rain Dance

Users: Jolteon, Electrode, Bronzong, Crobat, Zapdos, Azelf, any Water-type
Abusers: Ludicolo, Kingdra, Toxicroak, Qwilfish, most Water-types and all of the users of Rain Dance, really (Magnezone, Raikou etc are a good shout as well)

GoodStuffs

Blissey, Breloom, Empoleon, Garchomp, Gengar, Infernape, Suicune, Togekiss, Salamence.. And basically everything listed above already.

I don't think there's much else that you could consider top tier, bar a few such as Hail abusers and Sun abusers, maybe some other worthwhile Fake Out Pokémon etc.

 

[Alan]

I'm not the best at doubles (I actually suck really bad) but using <Discharge user> + EVire is really fun so is 2 LO Water Absorb users (Lapras + Vappy) and you just spam surf. I'm not sure how viable they are in 5th gen, but I've seen the latter strategy quite a bit when I played doubles on PO.