Resource Doubles OU Teambuilding Frameworks

Checkmater

a pinned butterfly is no butterfly at all
#1
Old Thread
Gen 6 Frameworks
SPL 9 T/R
DPL 4 T/R
Team Dumps

If you're stuck on where to go next when building a team, or unsure of where to start, you can check out this thread to find out what successful Doubles teams have looked like and what some of these teams have in common.

Viewing teambuilding frameworks can also be helpful to notice similarities and differences accross compositions to get a better grasp of building with a particular Pokemon or core or archetype.

If you want to contribute feel free to post similarities between successful teams that you've spotted. Your post can be a framework for me to add to the OP, or any kind of comment or feedback. Please contribute as much as possible: good discussions are always healthy and welcome on the forums, and it's good practice in team analysis. Also feel free to suggest what team should be added to the frameworks if you think theres something i missed out on.


GenOne Gengar Kommo-o

Croven & miltankmilk Gengar Kommo-o

miltankmilk Gengar Kommo-o

Fespy Gengar Kommo-o

1 and 2: Gengar + Kommo-o
With a fantastic showing in DPL, Gengar Kommo-o is powerful offensive core. Gengar's trapping gives its team easier ability to position, while it takes out Fairy-types for Kommo-o, letting it sweep. For teams more worried about the Zygarde/LandoT matchup, Gengar runs HP Ice, whereas Substitute can function as a second Protect, and Taunt beats opposing Tailwind users and soft-checks Trick Room.
3: Incineroar
Incineroar rounds out the core, soaking hits and improving the matchup against Steel-types such as Celesteela or Genesect. Fake Out is additionally useful to complement Gengar's offensive pressure and Kommo-o's need to setup.
4: Fires Counter, LandoT Check, Gengar Check
A consistent Incineroar/LandoT check helps Gengar's ability to stick on the field. Suicune and Araquinid directly threaten Incineroar and LandoT, while Zygarde can setup on both with little difficulty. It should be noted that slots 2-4 create a significant Tapu Fini weakness.
5: Hard Fini Counter
Tapu Bulu and Koko both threaten opposing Fini, while also being difficult to switch into (Bulu because resisted Wood Hammer still chunks, Koko because it can Volt Switch and preserve momentum vs. a switch)
6: LandoT Counter, Zygarde Counter, Gengar Check. In addition, this slot functions to generically counter opposing Water-types.
The last slot covers weaknesses, such as to Zygarde and Gengar, and being able to consistently deal with LandoT. Most teams use a Steel-type here, but Fespy opts for LandoT for more offensive pressure and synergy with Sticky Webs.


Kaori Metagross Offense

Genone Metagross Balance

Vallex Psy Terrain Metagross

EmbC Metagross Balance


1: Metagross
While less popular since Marshadow's ban, Metagross is still a popular and potent mega, and one of the only offensive steels. Even though Mega Gengar's star has risen, Metagross still finds a niche as a strong offensive attacker with unique coverage and ways around Intimidate.
2: Zapdos
Zapdos does many things that make it best in slot here on Metagross teams. First, it helps eliminate Water-types such as Tapu Fini and has the bulk and speed control to punish offensive threats like Gengar. Zapdos also benefits greatly from Metagross' ability to actively chase away threats like Tyranitar and Kyurem-Black. Unlike Tapu Koko, Zapdos is immune to Ground, letting it switch in for Metagross.
3: Ground-type: Zygarde or LandoT
Along with checking Gengar, Ground-types also help to soft-check opposing steels and Fire-types. While Kaori and Genone both use Zygarde, LandoT is also a viable option, with some effects on the latter slots.
4: Fire-Type
Fire types synergize well with Metagross by eliminating opposing Steels and benefiting from Zapdos' ability to eliminate Water-types. While Kaori and Genone use Incineroar, Vallex already has intimidate, allowing him to run Volcanion here, whereas EmbC instead opts of running Double Intimidate.
5: Waters Counter
Since Vallex uses LandoT as his Ground-type, Kyurem-Black fits here without stacking Dragon-typing. In addition, it helps against opposing Fire-types as LandoT doesn't provide a Fire-resist. The other teams use Grass-types, which function similarly but lose to Fire-types.
6: Secondary Waters Check
This slot functions as insurance against Water-types and rain while also rounding out the teams towards the directions they hope to take. Life Orb Hoopa-U with Gunk Shot gives Kaori greater ability to take advantage of Tailwind, while Tapu Fini helps Genone and EmbC against Fire-types, complimenting Amoonguss. Vallex's Tapu Lele provides Psychic Terrain to boost Metagross.


EmbC Manectric

Hashtag Manectric

Mint16 Manectric

Pigeons Manectric

1: Mega Manectric

While not a heavy-hitter like other megas, Mega Manectric brings valuable role condensation to the table, combining unique coverage, Intimidate, fast pivot momentum, and pre-evolve Electric redirection, all in one package. Although vulnerable to LandoT/Zygarde and speed control, Mega Manectric teams have the game control to out-position opponents and win the game.
2: Second Intimidate
One of Mega Manectric's greatest strengths lies in the ease with which Manectric teams can run double-Intimidate, thus being able to neuter and take advantage of opposing physical attackers.
3: Steel-type
Along with being generically bulky and covering many resists, Steel-types are particularly useful for their ability to switch into threats like Tapu Bulu and Kyurem-Black. Note that the Steel-types used here aren't weak to Ground, and thus don't lose to LandoT/Zygarde. Genesect provides more pivoting power whereas Ferrothorn provides a Water resist and a win condition.
4: Incineroar / LandoT Counter
Not only is this slot designed to patch the previous slot's Fire weakness, on most teams it serves to ramp up the offensive capabilities of the teams. For the most part, the first three slots of each team represent a versatile defensive core, which enable the offensive core of the last three slots. While most teams use a Water-type here, Mint16 opts for Tornadus, since his Steel-type already provides his Water resist.
5: Amoonguss Killer, Soft Tapu Bulu Check, Second LandoT Check Trick Room check
This slot continues to provide more offense, while specifically punishing Amoonguss, Tapu Bulu, and LandoT. Additionally, across the teams, this slot helps to pressure aspects of Trick Room such as Intimidate, blocking Fake Out, or providing a powerful nuke in Icium Kyurem-Black.
6: Zapdos Check, Fires Check, Trick Room check
Pressures speed control users while additionally checking Fire-types.


"The point of noticing frameworks like this isn't to limit creativity or say "you MUST build this way." This framework catalogue exists as a resource for when you're starting out on a new team to help you take a top level thing and put your own spin on it." - keith
 
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miltankmilk

**hypnotic recorder plays in background**
is a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
#3
I consider myself a Mega Gengar aficionado so I will lend my expertise to the fine readers of this thread. Mega Gengar is exceptional at removing checks for the strong dragon types of this tier, namely in Tapu Fini, Tapu Bulu, Tapu Koko and (situationally) Tapu Lele. It removes checks for Zygarde like Lando-t and other Zygarde. That's why I chose to pair it with Zygarde in both teams, a very good partner that benefits from having fairies removed just like Kommo-o. As for Kommo-o itself you can see I used two different abilities and this is more due to the time i built the team rather than a desire to wall gengar in the former version. By the time I used the second I was paranoid of opposing Kommo-o and wanted to switchins to Soulblaze. Incineroar is a very splashable mon that can remove steel types for the clanger and gengar as well as remove berries and give free set up turns with fake out. Bulu is a very good partner for the dragons as it sets a neutral terrain for Dragon moves, it heals up these bulky pokemon. The last pokemon is a steel type in both teams. It was important to have a secondary metagross answer because Gengar can't switch in and Incineroar can get chipped down. Both are also a soft gengar check. Any questions just tag me
 

GenOne

Moving forward...
is a Community Contributoris a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
#4
In general, all of the teams I've built and liked had a pretty specific formula - you could almost say it was my own version of a framework:
  1. Mega Pokemon
  2. Terrain setter
  3. Intimidate user
  4. Speed control setter
  5. Rain check
  6. Steel-type killer (and when viable, setup attacker)
You can't always arrive at a good team by following that list, but it's a good starting point and you'll almost always be on the right track with a bit of tweaking and tinkering. I also always like to run at least two Pokemon with Fire-type coverage to break Steel-types like Ferrothorn, and when possible I prefer to have a ground resist that can resist Zygarde's Thousand Arrows. A Steel-type of my own is also mandatory.

GenOne Gengar Kommo-o

This team exemplifies a really successful framework that has a bit of flexibility in terms of the mons you use. You can see how it fits into my formula above, but there's also some other nuanced stuff going on here.

A beta version of this team had Zygarde > Kommo-o, but when I decided to try Kommo-o, I knew I'd want almost every other mon on the team to have a good matchup against opposing Finis/Kokos/Leles, so I packed a tonne of countermeasures to them. Gengar beats all the tapus except Scarf Lele, so scarf Genesect was a direct answer to Lele. I also gave it Gunk Shot to OHKO Koko and do a lot more to Fini. Bulu is the most reliable breaker against Fini, and it also handles Koko and Lele nicely. Incineroar pretty much wins against all the Tapus except Fini.

Suicune is probably the most unique part of this team that sets it apart from other similar builds in the framework. It doesn't just set speed control - its Inner Focus/Roar combination makes it an incredibly consistent check to hard Trick Room (which this team struggles against a bit) as well as opposing setup sweepers.

There's a couple sets I'd change (Soundproof is better than Overcoat on Kommo-o) but overall I was really happy with how this team performed. Kommo-o didn't actually get to set up in my DPL game because my opp brought two Tapus and the positioning didn't work out, but I still took a solid win from that game and have played other games with this team to good success.

Genone Metagross Balance

This is really just a standard team of goodstuff mons. I don't consider it to be innovative, but it's really reliable. The most important part of it though is the Amoonguss. Amoonguss's redirection support really helps check opposing Gengars and helps Zygarde set up.

The EV spreads are also really unique on this team - I forget what half of them do now but I'll try to remember. Amoonguss OHKOs Tapu Koko 100% of the time and always 2HKOs Fini. I _think_ the Zygarde always lives a Mega Gengar HP Ice. It's really bulky at the expense of some attack. I went with Energy Ball > Spore to hit Swampert and Suicune without giving up my OHKO against Koko, but most people would probably rather use spore there.
 
#5
There are some issues I've spotted with this thread and I'll try to convey them without sounding too harsh. I have to say, however, that I often fail to do so when I'm upset.

It seems that your idea was to replace the other frameworks thread with a fresher one, run by the author of the Gen 6 Frameworks. I'm not sure if you're trying to just add teams seen recently but I think it's a terrible idea to completely ignore Frania's work. Many of the solid teams seen there are still relevant in the current metagame, as you seem to agree by including GenOne's Metagross team, which is extremely similar to my Metagross team, present in Frania's Metagross framework.
Speaking of my teams, the link you provided above to team dumps does not include my SPL team dump. I understand you didn't do this on purpose (or at least I hope so), as you're just linking a search result to the words "team dump", but it's still not cool.

Now looking at the frameworks, I'd like to address the fact that the Gengar + Kommo-o core did not see its debut in DPL. In fact, the core had been seeing great success in VGC already, but it was also used by SMB in the Winter Seasonals Winners Finals, as seen here: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7doublesou-364363

Another issue I found was that you used Zapdos as a whole step in Metagross' framework. While Zapdos is, indeed, an amazing partner to Mega Metagross, I find it very incorrect to imply that every Metagross team needs Zapdos. Tapu Koko is often seen partnered with it in Zapdos' place and you should know that better than anyone else, given that you used that core yourself in your week 4 match in DPL. It also gives the impression that, to build these frameworks, you're just looking at what the (extremely small sample size of) 3/4 sample teams have in common and listing it down, which I hope is not the case.

A smaller problem I found was that Kaori's team shouldn't, in my opinion, be included. Nothing personal against Sam, but that team was built in SPL, with a specific opponent in mind and when Intimidate Incineroar had just been released, so it ended up having 5 physical attackers with only 1 Incineroar check, which is far from ideal right now.

For now, that's all. I hope I was helpful and, if there's anything else I can do to help, feel free to contact me!
 

Checkmater

a pinned butterfly is no butterfly at all
#6
Hey, I appreciate the comments and the advice is super helpful wrt the thread.

Just some quick clarifications:

If you think a team should be included or should be listed, the most likely reason it's not there is that I literally just didn't see it, so just shoot me a pm or a msg or post in the thread and I'll look at it. I only have so much time / energy so there's always teams I miss, especially since I don't follow seasonals that closely.

Written frameworks aren't met to say "you have to build this way" they should be interpreted more as "Hey this one guy who doesn't play a whole lot looked at some replays and noticed these patterns". Neither are they set in stone, so advice/discussion are an important part of the health of the thread.

Some specific comments:

SPL teams are, in general, not that useful, mainly since snorlax has since been banned and incin was released, so only a couple matches were in the same meta as we are now. For this reason I didn't put that much effort into the team dumps link (though note that that link should catch every single team dump that included "team dump" in its title or body).

I didn't include Tapu Koko for slot 2 simply because I didn't find any recent replays utilizing Metagross+Koko. I didn't include my own team since it lost and including a team that was used once and lost is easy grounds for favoritism. Me putting Zapdos as slot 2 isn't saying "You have to put zapdos with Metagross", it's me observing that most Metagross teams have used Zapdos. Part of the utility of this thread is noticing a trend like that, and thinking about how you can break it. For example, one can look at all the zard teams halfway through last gen and think to oneself, "Hey what happens if I just decide not to include Venusaur even though everyone always uses it?" or "What if I don't autoinclude Cresselia on my TR teams?" If you have examples of Meta+Koko teams I'd be more than happy to include them.

I'm definitely not ignoring Frania's work, but what you're forgetting is that thread was last really updated last March, with a significant amount of the work being done earlier. Similarly to the SPL teams, that puts most of it before the Snorlax ban and the Incineroar release, so pretty much every single framework in there is out of date. I don't know what makes you assume I'm completely ignoring Frania's work, since I consulted it several times, but that's not a fair assumption. The reason I favor recent teams is because they're all after the literal rule-changes that occurred. In a more-perfect world with less bans and less rule changes, such as Gen 6, I could write a framework knowing it'd last a solid 6 months, and longer if I kept it semi-regularly updated, but if you look at the old thread and the even older thread before you'll see that bans have made that pretty difficult.

tl;dr If you have a team you think should be included PLEASE POST IT - makes this thread so much better when people contribute.
 
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Checkmater

a pinned butterfly is no butterfly at all
#7
Manectric Framework!! tagging EmbCPT Hashtag Mint16 Pigeons for comments and also to say thanks for sharing your pastes!

EmbC Manectric

Hashtag Manectric

Mint16 Manectric

Pigeons Manectric

1: Mega Manectric

While not a heavy-hitter like other megas, Mega Manectric brings valuable role condensation to the table, combining unique coverage, Intimidate, fast pivot momentum, and pre-evolve Electric redirection, all in one package. Although vulnerable to LandoT/Zygarde and speed control, Mega Manectric teams have the game control to out-position opponents and win the game.
2: Second Intimidate
One of Mega Manectric's greatest strengths lies in the ease with which Manectric teams can run double-Intimidate, thus being able to neuter and take advantage of opposing physical attackers.
3: Steel-type
Along with being generically bulky and covering many resists, Steel-types are particularly useful for their ability to switch into threats like Tapu Bulu and Kyurem-Black. Note that the Steel-types used here aren't weak to Ground, and thus don't lose to LandoT/Zygarde. Genesect provides more pivoting power whereas Ferrothorn provides a Water resist and a win condition.
4: Incineroar / LandoT Counter
Not only is this slot designed to patch the previous slot's Fire weakness, on most teams it serves to ramp up the offensive capabilities of the teams. For the most part, the first three slots of each team represent a versatile defensive core, which enable the offensive core of the last three slots. While most teams use a Water-type here, Mint16 opts for Tornadus, since his Steel-type already provides his Water resist.
5: Amoonguss Killer, Soft Tapu Bulu Check, Second LandoT Check Trick Room check
This slot continues to provide more offense, while specifically punishing Amoonguss, Tapu Bulu, and LandoT. Additionally, across the teams, this slot helps to pressure aspects of Trick Room such as Intimidate, blocking Fake Out, or providing a powerful nuke in Icium Kyurem-Black.
6: Zapdos Check, Fires Check, Trick Room check
Pressures speed control users while additionally checking Fire-types.
 

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