Tournament Doubles Premier League 5: Tier and Format Discussion Thread

[Mizuhime]

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How does DPL work?

There will be 6 teams, each with their own captain. Captains will do a snake draft on Pokemon Showdown, where they will take turns nominating and bidding in an auction for players who signed up to assemble their teams with limited credits available. The teams will then play one another for 5 weeks, with a new opponent each week. This will culminate with a Playoffs week consisting of the Top 2 teams overall from the 5-week main season.

How does one signup as a player?

Player signups will begin later, and will run until the draft. Watch the forum for the thread to sign up.


How does one apply to be a captain?

To apply to be a captain, read and post in this thread: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/doubles-premier-league-5-captain-signups.3648311/#post-8070641

When is the DPL Auction?

The auction date will be decided after managers are chosen and they agree to a time. Follow this thread for that information.


When does DPL Week 1 start?

The projected start date is Monday, April 8th.

In this thread, feel free to discuss anything regarding DPL before it begins. This is meant to be a place for players to voice their opinions and help us decide some key things regarding DPL. Some points of discussion are:

1. Should captains be allowed to play?
- This was allowed last year

2. If so, what restrictions should be in place or in what manner should this be done?
- Last year, managers were given the option to buy themselves for 13k prior to the auction and could play in any slot during the main season, do you think this should be higher if captains are allowed to play?

3. What Doubles formats should be used this year?
- Last year, there were 6 playing slots for each team: 3 SM DOU, 2 ORAS DOU, and 1 BW DOU
- This year we feel comfortable moving up to 8 playing slots, do you disagree with us? If so, why?

4. If you agree with moving up to 8 slots, what should the format be? The format discussed prior to posting was 4 sm 2 xy bw uu.


Feel free to bring up anything else you find relevant and worth discussing regarding DPL.

 

[Platinum God n1n1]

All I really care about is DUU being included, every thing else is less important to me.

the DUU seasonals have had great success and theres been increased participation on the DUU thread. I think lots of people would like to play this format and I think its earned the right to be included

edit. heres the rest of the stuff sense you asked

1. Should captains be allowed to play?
yes. always have been allowed. no reason to change.
2. If so, what restrictions should be in place or in what manner should this be done?
sure. price should be the average cost of a player. Starting money/required number to have on a team.
3. What Doubles formats should be used this year?
4 SM, 1 XY, 1 BW, 2 DUU

 

[n10siT]

1. Should captains be allowed to play?
yes

2. If so, what restrictions should be in place or in what manner should this be done?
12-15k manager price point

3. What Doubles formats should be used this year?
im cool with either 6 or 8 slots. duu, xy, and bw should all be included.

4. If you agree with moving up to 8 slots, what should the format be? The format discussed prior to posting was 4 sm 2 xy bw uu.
5 sm, 1 of everything else, or 4 sm and 2 uu.

sorry this is a super short not that thought out post just wanted to put my thoughts in here !

 

[AuraRayquaza]

Allowing managers has never been an issue in the past and no reason to change that. I think we have the playerbase to move up to 8 slots and with that 12k seems like a fair price to pay for a manager.

5 SM 1 ORAS 1 BW 1 DUU sounds about right, I dont think any of the lower tiers can really warrant having 2 slots and having a large sm majority sounds good given it is our main tier

 

[Stratos]

I personally think six slots is better than eight, I haven't seen the DOU playerbase getting noticeably bigger really. Remember that you have to add two subs so you're really arguing for 8 or 10. Are there 60+ DPL-ready people? I personally like to keep the draft to DOU players so to me, no, but I guess the guys who draft their SPL teammates probably disagree.

As for the format, whatever size we do, I think it should be 1 XY / BW / UU and SM for the rest. Having two slots of XY/UU in an 8-person tournament puts it in a weird limbo where it's not large enough for the whole team to get involved, but too large to just draft one token nerd who will go build teams in his little cave. Having experienced a similar situation in NPA when there were 2 Ultra series slots, it just doesn't work well.

 

[DaWoblefet]

1. Should captains be allowed to play?
I view DPL as a fun tournament that invites a wide variety of new players and veterans alike to enjoy a team tournament experience. I personally think that captains being allowed to play allows them to participate in the fun by being more actively engaged as a player. Equally, I think that a captain focused on play tends to be less focused on their overall team, because in addition to logistics they have to themselves prep each week, etc. I think captains should be allowed to play, at a more significant cost.

2. If so, what restrictions should be in place or in what manner should this be done?
I would increase the 13k base limit, probably 15k or even higher. I think managers should have to spend a significant chunk of their budget to play themselves, and they should be rewarded with significantly more spending money if they opt out of playing themselves as opposed to purely managing. I'd want this transaction to occur prior to draft week.

3. What Doubles formats should be used this year?
Definitely SM, ORAS, BW, and SM DUU for sure, with a heavy bias on SM. If you remain at 6 slots, I would prefer to see 3 SM / 1 ORAS / 1 BW / 1 DUU. However, I do think moving up to 8 slots is fine given the intention is to grow DPL from something smaller to something larger (outreaching to other Smogon playerbases, VGC players, etc). It might be fine to keep the tournament more exclusive, however; it depends if you think having a large majority of the DOU community + outsiders drafted is better than a more tightly-knit team environment with players mostly from the original community.

4. If you agree with moving up to 8 slots, what should the format be?

4 SM / 1 ORAS / 1 BW / 1 DUU / 1 DUbers. Increasing two slots means that realistically you have an entire format available to be played; I don't really see the merit of +1 (probably XY) or +2 SM; I would love to see an increase in variety as opposed to more matches of SM. Doubles Ubers seems to be the most logical pick if you're going to add another doubles meta, and I think it would be beneficial in attracting VGC players experienced with VGC 2019. The DUbers metagame is not sorely underdeveloped or unplayable by any means, and I think having one slot for it is perfectly fine.

 

[talkingtree]

Managers have always been allowed to play and disallowing it now would just dissuade managers from wanting to sign up. Seems like everyone is on agreement on this anyway, so I won't bother saying more.

In terms of price, I feel like managers should be bumped up to 15k. Most of the people who have signed up to manage would go for around this price in the actual draft anyway, and getting an SPL-level player and builder for only 10-12k is an absurd steal. With a low price, most managers otherwise don't really have to think twice about buying themselves. I wouldn't go any higher than that for now at least, but I think this is the right next step.

Going into this discussion, I was pretty sure I wanted to jump up to 8 slots with 4-5 SM, 1-2 XY, 1 BW, and 1 UU, but Stratos's post has me thinking twice. (so weird to tag you after all this time) I still believe all these extra metas should be represented, but using 3 SM / 1 XY / 1 BW / 1 UU again would be a decent option, as it keeps every game competitive and makes it more likely that teams can be involved with preparation for every game. Our seasonal signups have also gone down a bit, and it's the end of the gen, so there's somewhat of a risk in jumping to 8 slots and finding if managers struggle to put together 10 solid players each. It's always nice to have more chances for people, but if SMs 4-5 just end up being dumping grounds or a place to dodge tough opps, then that's not valuable anymore. I'd probably be equally happy with 3 or 5 SM, and 1 of each of the 'other metas' I listed above. Keeping ties intact is an obvious plus that doesn't really need to be argued. I kind of wish we could decide the number of slots after we see how many signups we get, but that's not very practical.

As for the other metas that have been proposed, the only other one that's even really worth addressing is DUbers. While I acknowledge that it's a legitimate meta that would undoubtedly grow from its exposure here, it's probably the least balanced of any meta and risking making one of the slots in DOU's only team tour uncompetitive isn't really worth it to me. Mostly I just really don't want to see Magearna in a Doubles match that matters, that mon is so absurdly broken in every sense of the word.

 

[MajorBowman]

I kind of wish we could decide the number of slots after we see how many signups we get, but that's not very practical.

We actually did this last year. Certainly not opposed to doing it again if it's a concern.

I have similar feelings about 6 vs 8 slots to talkingtree though I think I'm a little more optimistic that we could make 8 slots per team work. I was all for 4/2/1/1 at first but after thinking about it I agree that we just need one XY, so if we do 8 slots I think 5/1/1/1 is the right call.

Agree with bumping manager price to 15k

 

[stax]

Last dpl had 60 players, even if there is an assumption that no growth has occurred that still leaves 2 sub slots in an 8 slot format which is perfectly reasonable considering most spl teams operate at a similar sub to starter ratio (and sometimes one of their subs only plays doubles). What does dpl quality even mean? Dpl should be promoting newer players to get a chance so that they can stick around or make a name for themselves. It was incredibly frustrating last year seeing so many deserving players on the storms not get an opportunity due to the slot restrictions. The singles player thing is also vastly overstated as there was only like 4 last year and most were willing to try and play.

 

[fespy]

It was incredibly frustrating last year seeing so many deserving players on the storms not get an opportunity due to the slot restrictions. The singles player thing is also vastly overstated as there was only like 4 last year and most were willing to try and play.

Agree with this completely. I was fortunate enough to play most weeks, but every match I played had a sour aftertaste in that I knew that by playing I was blocking another person from playing that had been around for much longer and had contributed much more to the community than I had.

The question of 6 vs 8 players to me comes down to a matter of identity for DPL. Is the tournament about winning, and proving who are the best players in the DOU scene, or is it about introducing new members to the community and fostering a collaborative environment? Other people who have been around longer are better qualified to comment on this, but from what I've seen the tournament is more about the latter, which would benefit from having >6 slots. I know the Storms last year could've fielded 8 each week, even without drafting additional players. Right now is also a great time to have signups- the recent Marsh suspect / roomtour tests and SPL having a doubles match as a semifinals tiebreaker would only influence more people to sign up, making me highly doubt there would be any issue drafting 10 players per team.

To wrap this up, there seems to be something that's taken as a given by everyone that previously posted that should at the very least be explained, if not questioned. Forgive me for stating the obvious, but it seems apparent that if 6 is thought of as being too low, and 8 is thought of as being too high, there must be some integer value between 6 and 8 that could be used as a compromise. Is there a reason for not considering an odd number of slots?

 

[AuraRayquaza]

We can't really go to an odd number of slots because it removes ties. These are a pretty big thing and something you see in pretty much all smogon team tours. It mainly just makes the whole season a lot more exciting, you dont get the playoff teams decided early and invalidate the last week or two. You also dont get teams who lose the first couple of weeks by a small margin and then have no incentive to try for the rest of the season. While I'm all for finding a good compromise between a larger DPL and a competitive one an odd number of slots isnt the way to go, the tradeoff in terms of team competition is too great

 

[Stratos]

In team tours without ties, the field tends to separate much faster, and there's also a one-game swing between getting all of the points in a week and getting none of them. Neither of these aspects are desirable. Team tours with odd numbers of team members have been tried in the past and there's a reason nobody wants to go back.

If exactly sixty people were drafted for DPL last year, unless we think the field has grown, this is evidence to me that we should do six slots. Choosing the size of your roster is one of the key components of drafting strategy. Some managers frontload their draft money and go for the minimum size, hoping to have a powerful starting squad that can steamroll opponents. Other managers draft a million players with the idea that more heads in the channel means more activity, more brains thinking up the best counterteams, and more comeraderie. We've seen both kinds be successful (DPL2 Shitposters / Ancients vs DPL1 Jams / DPL3 Storms respectively), so allowing managers to decide this is a key part of drafting identity. If we're expecting about sixty decent signups and forcing every manager to have ten players, this element is less prevalent. The front-loading strategy becomes pretty much unviable because you aren't guaranteed to get 8 decent players after blowing 70% of your budget on the first three, when the xzern / arcticblast of the draft can upbid all of your late picks. As someone who gets really excited by massive bidding wars I'm not a fan of this.

Part of the tradeoff of having a massive roster is that each player gets less starting time on average, yes. As someone who has massive fucking anxiety, I disagree that the merit of being drafted in a team tour is in being able to start. I have explicitly asked to be benched in almost every team tour I've played in. The merit of being drafted to me is networking with top players, making connections, and having a shared support and teambuilding environment where you get to enjoy each other's success. Some players who get drafted because they are active teambuilders and keep the chat alive do not deserve to start because they will lose more often than the players who are starting. I'm sorry to say it, but this is true.

If we think that the mandated roster size isn't going to let everyone who deserves it get drafted then sure, I'm all for expanding the roster size. (And while we're here, I'm saying you 'deserve it' if you have a decent shot at beating any player in the SM OU field or can offer teambuilding / support on par with players who will start). If you just want to make it so everyone who gets drafted can start then the best ways to do that are reducing minimum sub limit to 1, adding a maximum sub cap, or picking managers who prioritize that over winning.

 

[Stratos]

Something I just realized to keep in mind (that I thought merited a whole new post) is that we have a lot more room to experiment than I think we realize. We aren't married to SPL's structure except in one or two points.

Scoring structure is one example. We're against 7 slots because it sucks with the SPL scoring structure, but we aren't forced to use it. We would need to invent a new structure to use a 7 slot league but that's far from impossible.

Number of teams is another. If we think 36 starters (6x6) is too few and 48 (6x8) is too many, we can keep it at 6 slots and expand the league to 7 teams for 42 starters and no structural changes needed.

Another is minimum sub limit. We have a minimum of 2 subs because SPL does but that's not set in stone. NPA uses a zero sub limit. If we want more people being drafted but don't want to go to eight slots we could have a 3 sub limit. Alternatively if we want eight slots but can't fit a 10 player minimum we could do 1 or even 0 sub limit.

To address the problem of people who never get to start you can add a roster size cap as well.

There are other more creative things you can also do. To keep ties in the regular season but encourage larger drafts, we can remove the bo3 tiebreaker mechanic and add a 4th SM slot in playoffs (so playoffs are 7 games). We can add a rule that you must start every player on your roster at least once (though be aware that this will lead to smaller drafts!) I'm sure we can do shit I've never considered.

I don't think all or even most of the things I just said are good ideas. Personally, I still don't think we need to expand the league. ...But I am partial to the 4th SM in playoffs idea actually, because tiebreakers suck.




As for manager prices I think the only fair way to do it is, once the managers are picked, set the manager price at the average of their DPL4 draft prices (excluding those who didn't sign up for DPL4.) It's not perfect as values fluctuate but it seems better than just eyeballing it and allows us to avoid having this discussion every year.