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Doubles Viability Rankings (C- Votes if u care lol)

Darkmalice said:
Wouldn't it be best to hold off moving these two on the basis of sleep clause till sleep clause is actually lifted? Even though it will probably be lifted, I don't want to count the chicks before the eggs hatch.



On this topic, I would like to see Whismicott nominated to move down to C rank. I think it's worse than Klefki. No offense too, but worse typing than Klefki. Tailwind instead of Thunder Wave, and whilst Taunt and Encore are great, you can work around them, as you should always suspect them when Whimsicott is out. It's harder to work around them than Screens.
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We can wait for the official change on sleep, I've just done a lot of practice on that ladder and have been abused by a lot of mushroom-oriented Pokemon.

Whimsicott has fast offense though. It can at least Giga Drain things (Grass > Steel STAB any day) and outspeed them while doing so. It also has the whole Beat Up thing going on, which might be the thing that someone might argue launches it into B. I'd agree with it being placed in C tier, but imo it's better than Klefki

Laga said:
hi zach have you ever heard of choice overload ;] yeah your post is really hard to process, at least if you plan on taking each and every mon you brought up into consideration...

Now two of your noms really stood out to me; Landorus-T to S rank and Rotom-W for S rank. I definitely think that Landorus-T is an S rank, and I am straight up surprised that it isn't now that I think about it. It's just one of those Pokemon that you use without even thinking about it (probably why it's the most used Pokemon in SPL).

Now Rotom-W, on the other hand, is something I am going to have to disagree with. Even though it's defenses are solid, especially its typing, its HP really just is a huge bummer. Rotom-W isn't a Pokemon that just sits there and takes hits without giving two shits like Cresselia does, and it doesn't really hit hard enough (can't kill megazard, can't even kill Heatran without investment), and it's Speed is fairly low.

Even though Rotom is an amazing check to Water, Fire, and Flying types, you usually have to pack extra checks / counters for these Pokemon, because Rotom just cannot stomach them that amazingly. Now that Assault Vest Ludicolo is popular, it doesn't deal with Rain; now that Sun only exists because of Zard Y, it doesn't deal with Sun either (Solarbeam easily 2HKOs any rotom, can't kill with tbolt). Of course, it can switch into these moves, but it can't defeat them single handedly. This is because of its really bad HP stat that just brings it down big time. What are you going to use an amazing defensive typing when Mega Kangaskhan can OHKO your rotom with fake out + return. It really just doesn't consistently take hits and it definitely cannot do all that much back once it has taken a hit.
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That's a fair point with Rotom-W, it's more of a stabilizer than anything. I think the whole "it can't beat Mega Kanga or Cress" thing is a bit damning for it. Glad to see the Lando-T support though, I forgot the usage stats in SPL also show it's sort of the top dog (or, er, cat) in the meta.

A bunch of these suspects make sense, but a whooole lot of them are skeptical.
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Yeah, I would expect most of them to be sort of iffy, people who have actually tested these things are better off giving their insight on them so I didn't really want to do anything more than bring up the ones that seemed a little bit out of place. I haven't gotten around to testing everything in the book :/


Show me the Mantine. SHOW ME THE MAAANTINEEE
 
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Nominating Gardevoir for B-Rank.
<&Pwnemon> Gardevoir is the most overrated Pokemon ever

This. I feel Mega Gardevoir is pretty overrated. It has the power Pixiliate Hyper voice, but is pretty predictable, and has low defense and only Mediocre speed. I don't feel as it is up to par with with other A-rank mons like Latios or Conkeldurr. IT does have a fantastic special attack and movepool, which makes it a solid B-rank mon, but I don't feel it's A rank.

Nominating Weavile for B rank. It's been showed how solid a mon it is through many SPL matches. IT has a high speed, high attack, and useful movepool with moves such as Beat Up and Fake Out. A Fast Ice attacker in general is very useful, as a lot of the top threats in the meta (Garchomp, Lando-T), are weak to it.

Finally, Nominating Azumarill for A Rank. It hits extremely hard, and has quite a few good sets, such as Assault Vest, Belly Drum, and Choice Band. Its dual typing beats a lot of popular threats such as Lando-T, Garchomp, and Heatran.
 
Okay nominations are Locked

There is a lot :/ discuss:

Volcarona dropping to B rank.

Diggersby placement.

Raikou placement.

Since Zach nommed a butt-ton I will pick the ones that are most important for this round. We might as well wait until after the sleep vote before moving Breloom and Amoonguss, and Bisharp, Rotom-W, and Deoxys-A were just placed, so we don't need to rediscuss them. You should have posted when they were up if you wanted them to move. So,

Landorus-T rising to S rank.

Tyranitar dropping to A rank.

Charizard dropping to A rank.

Klefki and Whimsicott dropping to C rank.

Escavalier rising to B rank.

Torterra and Mantine dropping to D rank.

also ultima's noms came up in the middle of this post so too bad wait til the next one :P
 
Volcarona dropping to B rank.
Yes. Volcarona, while a solid mon, has many common threats which stop it in the current metagame. Stone Edge being run over rock slide by many players makes the famous TopMoth combo less potent, and being complete SubTran and Zard fodder doesnt help either. B rank pls.

Diggersby placement.
I'm thinking C Rank. While Diggersby isnt as Powerful as Lando-T or Chomp, It does hit harder and has powerful priority in quick attack. Other than that, It really doesnt have a niche, except for maybe fitting on Trick Room teams better?

Raikou placement.
I'm leaning B or C Rank. While it faces a LOT of competition from mega Manetric, Raikou has the advantage of not needing a mega form. Having a solid speed and special attack, as well as a decent movepool including stuff like snarl, Raikou can be a solid mon when used correctly.

Landorus-T rising to S rank.
YES. I was going to suggest this myself. Landorus-T is one of the most versatile Pokemon in the doubles Metagame. I can run everything from Scarf, Band, Sub, Yache, Sash, and even more niche moves like Hidden Power Ice. It has intimidate, one of the most useful abilities in the doubles metagame. IT also has decent speed and a very high attack to use its STAB earthquake with. It's also been used in battles of the highest level and shows its usefulness. An S-Rank mon for sure.

Tyranitar dropping to A rank.
No. I think Tyranitar is just as versatile as Landorus-T, running Mega, Scarf, Mixed, Chople, and more. ITs vast movepool lets it do a lot to fit your teams' needs. Sand Stream is an amazing ability, creating a whole team archetype by itself. I think it should stay S.

Charizard dropping to A rank.
No, for pretty much the same reasons as Tyranitar. It can run a lot, from the usual Zard-Y set, which has some alterations in itself (only heat wave, solarbeam, and protect are really necessary, the last slot is up for grabs), or the less common but also useful Zard-X.

Klefki and Whimsicott dropping to C rank.
Yea. These Prankster users are significantly worse in higher play because their antics are over prepared for. Both of them are also predictable and are beaten by a lot of top threats (And quick guard :])

Escavalier rising to B rank.
Yes. Escavalier is like a far slower scizor without any priority, but can beat heatran and Co. without resorting to Superpower (which scizor doesnt usually run anyway). It is one of the mons that works well in Trick Room, but has the bulk outside of it to be a safety net for faster teams.

Torterra and Mantine dropping to D rank.
Yes, both of them are pretty bad.
 
Landorus-T is a top tier mon, that's why everyone uses it in SPL and why it has such a high weight in usage stats. It is the ultimate glue mon with access to U-turn, powerful spread, good typing for immunities, INTIMIDATE, Knock Off, good offensive coverage with edge/slide-quake, decent speed tier especially for scarf. It can use different sets(loads of item and move choices), but it still functions as a glue-mon which is great for any team. It could probably be considered the best Pokemon in the tier.

Raikou and Diggersby are niche and somewhat mediocre. Raikou definitely deserves at least C rank, but I kind of feel like Diggersby is only used for cool points.

Tyranitar's Mega and Chople sets have become less exciting due to the sky-high popularity of Landorus-T and the quickly increasing popularity of Scrafty. However, the scarf set can do some really awesome things with Rock Slide and the special set is really throwing some of its counters a curveball. You can usually find a Ttar set to meet your needs.
252+ SpA Life Orb Tyranitar Dark Pulse vs. 80 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 181-214 (53.3 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Charizard is not as threatening now that the meta has more than acclimated to its presence. However, it still 2hkos the entire tier and can ohko a really long list as well. I'm going to say it is probably the best Pokemon in A rank now instead of S. It can't beat as many things with "little to no" help anymore. Things are EVing to live it, outspeed it, and kill it. On its own, it can't get around these measures takes, but with a little bit of help it can.

Klefki is mediocre, Whimsicott has niches. I could see Whimsi staying, but Klefki is reeeally meh for B rank.

Escavalier's switch-in potential goes up a lotttt if Sleep Clause leaves. It seems pretty good for a C rank mon now, I'd say might as well get the bump up out of the way now, since it is almost B rank with Sleep Clause intact.

Torterra and Mantine are noobs
 
Landurus-T to S Rank: Definitely something I agree with. This thing's access to Intimidate combined with it's great defensive typing already makes this thing A, but great stats (Especially a 145 base attack) and good offensive options make this thing awesome. It's also pretty unpredictable, as Yatche/Scarf/Band are all viable options.

Escavalier to B: I could definitely see this. Knock Off buff + Drill Run has made Escavalier so much more viable, especially in Trick Room. Overcoat now blocks Sleep moves like Spore and Sleep Powder, and Megahorn is strong as ever.

Charizard to A: No. Charizard is such a great Pokemon, with Mega Y being such an great offensive force. Not only is it super powerful with base 165 SpA in Sun, but it also supports its team quite well. It allows Venusaur to better abuse Sleep and Pokemon such as Talonflame to hit really hard. It has some solid counters, but this thing is still basically the definition of S rank in my eyes.

The rest I either haven't had enough experience with (Mantine, Diggersby, Torterra, Raikou) or I'm on the fence about (All the rest).
 
Honestly Mantine is one of my favourite Pokémon to use in this meta. It's probably because I'm a "lolnoob" still but it seems to have lots of great stuff put into one package. It is a very good Pokémon for supporting, with access to moves such as Wide Guard and Icy Wind, and it has very good special bulk on top of that. The main thing which lets Mantine down is typing, and the huge weakness to electricity, however that's one type, and a type which, while it is quite common in doubles, is also overly-prepared for on most teams. Mantine can also run fairly successful lure sets for said Electric-Types because, as many appear on Rain teams, Mantine can use Swift Swim and actually outspeed them with a hard-hitting Hydro Pump. This doesn't work for stuff like Mega-Ampharos or Magnezone, the Pokémon who aren't the best in doubles but have very good bulk, but it is quite good for more rain-oriented Pokémon such as Heliolisk, Thundurus and even Mega-Manectric. Personally, I kind of want Mantine in B for the luring set's variety and the many support options it has otherwise, but no lower than C for me.
 
Ok, no. Mantine is not a particularly good Pokemon. It isn't something I would put among the ranks of Raikou and Diggersby at all. I think it should be dropped. In fact, I agree with Braverius that anything below C rank shouldn't be listed. D Rank is basically E rank mons that are notable in other tiers, or that someone has used once and thought of as not being completely useless, so it doesn't serve much use as a tiering section and should be eliminated. So yeah, get rid of D rank (and drop Torterra and Mantine from C).

As for the other ones, I agree with the following.
  • Raikou + Diggersby to C rank
  • Volc to B rank (I brought it up so that's obv)
  • Lando-T to S rank
  • Escavalier to B rank
  • Klefki + Whimsicott to C rank
not gonna talk about the drops from S rank for now since I need to think about it a little more before I decide
 
So in order to give the viable Pokemon more room of comparison, a chunk of the Doubles Council and I have decided to push all of the sucky D rank Pokemon to E rank while putting more of the suckier C rank Pokemon to D rank (hopefully Mantine and Torterra drop there too).
 
Lolkomori said:
So in order to give the viable Pokemon more room of comparison, a chunk of the Doubles Council and I have decided to push all of the sucky D rank Pokemon to E rank while putting more of the suckier C rank Pokemon to D rank (hopefully Mantine and Torterra drop there too).
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You could probably make a caveat in the OP stating something about that, like "Pokemon not listed within the rankings are considered E Ranking. This means they have either not been placed yet or are just not competitively sound within the current Doubles Metagame" or something similar. This would let people know that, while it does contain some sucky Pokemon, it also means that we haven't brought up all 700+ Mons for discussion.
 
I already have "Everything else" at the bottom of the E rank list, but I will bold it to make it even more noticable. :>
 
I'm fine with D rank on Mantine. There are better users of his support moves, but his typing and movepool access are unique enough to set him apart in certain scenarios. He also works fine within doubles (i.e. don't knock it til you try it). Also his mouth is scrunchy.
 
With the newly changed D-rank definition, I have absolutely no problems with dropping Mantine and Torterra to D-rank. I feel this should be an obvious decision. Possibly Torterra even down to E-rank, but I feel D-rank is a safer choice.

Raikou and Whimsicott for C-rank - I nominated them see my nom posts

Diggerbsy for C-rank. Quick Attack is its saving grace from D-rank or even E-rank, as it ensure it is not completely dependent on speed support, which is horrible for a Pokemon with bad bulk. And with the appropriate speed support, as you all know, it hits very hard. With its base speed, TR and Tailwind can work.

Volcarona for B-rank. Rage Powder has been nerfed this generation, and Volcarona was previously great at luring in Grass-type attacks. It's gotten competition from Mega Zard Y and Heatran for the role of the Fire-type on the team, and it functions quite similarly to Mega Zard Y. It's best set is easily the Quiver Dance set, as it reliably distinguishes it from Zard Y, ad Fire + Bug coverage is surprisingly good. However, there are notable Pokemon that resist them, including the aforementioned Fire-types that are good answers to Volc. It's harder for Volc to get a sweep, as it is both easier to stop it both once it has set up (Fire-types, Azumarill), and it is easier to stop it from setting up this gen (Landorus-T). In saying that, it is definitely one of the best B-rank Pokemon, though it has fierce competition - Zard Y hits harder even than a +1 Volc thanks to Drought, and Heatran gels better in the metagame.

Lando-T for S-rank. Pretty much what everyone else already said.

Klefki for C-rank. It's cripping flaw is its lack of offense. Definitely not D-rank, as it is good in setting up the support it intends to - it just can't do anything else other than support.
[EDIT] With Sleep Clause removed, I am now borderline as to moving it down to C-rank or not - Prankster Safeguard is now better than before. And it's not useless outside of stopping sleep; it can be paired with Swagger, and Swagger can help compensate for its lack of offense as it can be used against opposing special attackers.
[EDIT2] Still C rank. Whilst Safeguard is useful against sleep, you shouldn't be using sleep moves when there is a Klefki on the field. Sleep Clause isn't that big of an improvement for Klefki. It also doesn't solve the lack of offense, which is why I'm nominating C rank. At least Sableye has STAB Foul Play, as well as Will-O-Wisp which is awesome with Prankster.

Escavalier for B-rank. It's offensive movepool is pretty good now - it has exactly 4 good moves to give it good coverage. Megahorn, Iron Head, Knock Off, and Drill Run, solving it's old problem of poor coverage. It's a shame that Fire-types roast it, but Trick Room can solve that, and when there aren't Fire-types on the field, it can function without Trick Room thanks to great stats and typing. [EDIT] With Sleep Clause removed, it is now a great method for TR to check sleep.

Charizard remains in S-rank. It doesn't just have very strong Fire-type attacks and is a great stand-alone Pokemon; it provides great support with Drought. The two together is why it is S-rank, let alone the fact that it can surprise the opponent as Zard X and potentially late-game sweep with Dragon Dance (Zard X).

Tyranitar remains in S-rank. I personally believe it is the worse S-ranked Pokemon on the list, but overall I feel it should remain S-rank. This is the most diverse Pokemon in the metagame - physical tank, mixed tank, special tank, choice scarf, dragon dance sets are all viable, and item choices can very with the set too - for example, a tank set could viably use Shuca Berry, Chople Berry, Weakness Policy, and more. It provides sand support too which whilst not that important this metagame, is still helpful, particularly against Zard Y. Optional Mega Evo is also a plus, even if you're better off using other Megas, mainly relevant for the DD set. I can see it dropping, but I feel it should just remain S-rank.


Would it be possible to nominate changes in the future regarding the recent D-rank and E-rank drops by the QC council e.g. moving them back up? I am happy with most of the moves, though there are some I am borderline on or that I could imagine other people wanting to move.
 
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Volcarona dropping to B rank.
Yes, very threatening once it sets up, but the meta is pretty hostile towards it atm, what with all the competition it's facing from fellow fire-types, plenty of ways to beat it with relative ease, Rage Powder nerf etc.

Diggersby placement.
Don't have any experience with this guy, but from theorymon I'm going for C-rank, as it requires some support and has to compete with the likes of (Mega) Garchomp and Lando-T for an offensive ground type. Does have its niche in hitting damn hard though, and priority is always a nice thing to have.

Raikou placement.
No idea, gonna say like C-rank but idk why lol

Landorus-T rising to S rank.
Yes, it's versatile, it's powerful, Intimidate makes it bulky enough and a team supporter, it barely has any flaws and it fits on almost any team perfectly. It's become such a Doubles staple, it deserves S-rank.

Tyranitar dropping to A rank.
No, much like Lando-T it's very versatile, has plenty of power, its ability can provide great support for itself (dat special bulk) and for other mons (Excadrill with Sand Rush or Mega Chomp) and it's a nice fit on many teams. It can also become very anti-meta when equipped with a scarf which is always very nice.

Charizard dropping to A rank.
lol no, Mega Y 2HKOs the entire metagame and has an ability that can support its team to boot, it has plenty of space on its moveset to cover for certain threats, hell, you can even go wild and run Tailwind. On top of that, the popularity of Mega Y means that, once someone assumes Charizard will evolve into Mega Y and you turn out to be Mega X, the things that were switched in to take care of Zard suddenly are helpless as Zard X sets up or just smashes shit (is the defensive set a thing in doubles? If so, it can do that too)

Klefki and Whimsicott dropping to C rank.
Team supports with Prankster but without any noteworthy offensive presence. Klefki is a great screener and paralysis spreader, Whimsicott is just annoying as fuck. Both can become deadweight though, so yeah fair enough, drop 'em.

Escavalier rising to B rank.
Yes, although I have barely seen it in action, but I reckon it's very powerful under TR (with appropriate coverage too, at last) and it keeps Amoonguss from trolling TR teams to death. It can even function without TR due to its bulkyness and sweet typing :>

Torterra and Mantine dropping to D rank.
yeah whatever no one cares for these two xcept celever lol
 
Actually I'm all for Torterra dropping Robert Alfons, I tried him he was pretty bad lol. I'd prefer him in E actually, but whatever.

Volcarona for B
Yup. Tyranitar is like really popular now so that's bad for it, and while it can set up in like 2/5 matches and be deadly in them, it's not very consistent and the meta is bad towards it as a whole. Especially with such Fire competition in the tier right now.

Diggersby Placement
I actually disagree with this (unless D/E) because Zangoose with a Toxic Orb outclasses Diggersby at this awful niche. It is more powerful than Diggersby, is faster but isn't bulkier which means Zangoose needs Quick Guard support (Mach Punch), however it can use the ever-powerful Facade and if you even want it to be fast Facade spam maybe you could Choice Scarf it and have a partner Pokémon Toxic Zangoose? Anyway, Diggersby doesn't have a niche because of Zangoose, and Zangoose is really rare and forgotten about anyway (FYI when nominations are back open I'll nominate Zangoose for C Rank, where Diggersby should have been). EDIT: Zangoose is more powerful raw, lo makes Diggersby SLIGHTLY more powerful but like I said earlier you can just toxic your own Zangoose with an ally. I would personally use Zangoose over Diggersby, but I guess it's up to you. Maybe put Diggersby in D for now and Zangoose can join it later?

Raikou Placement
I guess C? Never used it, but seems like an inferior Zapdos/Thundurus...

Landorus-T Rising to S-Rank
Never used the guy and never had much trouble with it on the ladder. Against people who know how to use it such as Pwnemon and Laga, though, he is truly terrifying so I concur with S.

Tyranitar Dropping to A-Rank
What? No! Tyranitar is like the best Rock-Type in the tier, carries a whole team archetype of Sand and is a really good Choice Band/Scarf user on non-Sand dedicated teams. Like 80% of my teams just end up using Tyranitar, even if I don't mean to use him, and just add him 5th or 6th because he is what a bunch of teams in this tier need. You could even run gimmicky Unnerve sets, as Berries hold some merit in this tier. Just... no... keep in S-Rank...

Charizard Dropping to A-Rank

Lol no. Come on, Charizard is the best Pokémon in the tier right now imo. Even though Tyranitar is becoming more popular that shows what a huge threat Charizard is -- having it's counters be popular to.. counter it. Charizard-X can pull late-game sweeps, even in Doubles, and Charizard-Y can spam Heat Waves superbly. Don't drop it, that's an awful idea...

Klefki and Whimsicott Dropping to C-Rank
Yup. Prankster is nice, they don't have very good bulk, awful offense, are subject to their own awful niches (swagplay, Beat Up + Terrakion) so yeah, put these guys down in C.

Escavalier Rising to B-Rank
Used to be a huge threat in this meta in Trick Room, haven't seen any this meta but it's power shouldn't be very different really. This hasn't been a very "bulky" transition, so I would say B. Once I try it out I might nominate the guy for A-Rank, because by Theorymon I think him that good.

Torterra and Mantine dropping to D-Rank
Torterra yes, Mantine no. Torterra is just outclassed at what it wants to do, and I've yet to run into a successful set anyway. Mantine, on the other hand, can actually support it's team with options such as Wide Guard and Icy Wind, and is a very good Rain Counter with Swift Swim and Air Slash to hit Ludicolo, and even HP Grass for something like Carracosta. Mantine is too good to drop, but nobody even tries it. This isn't even a case of "obviously outclassed" because Mantine is unique...
 
Celever said:
Actually I'm all for Torterra dropping Robert Alfons, I tried him he was pretty bad lol. I'd prefer him in E actually, but whatever.

Volcarona for B
Yup. Tyranitar is like really popular now so that's bad for it, and while it can set up in like 2/5 matches and be deadly in them, it's not very consistent and the meta is bad towards it as a whole. Especially with such Fire competition in the tier right now.

Diggersby Placement
I actually disagree with this (unless D/E) because Zangoose with a Toxic Orb outclasses Diggersby at this awful niche. It is more powerful than Diggersby, is faster but isn't bulkier which means Zangoose needs Quick Guard support (Mach Punch), however it can use the ever-powerful Facade and if you even want it to be fast Facade spam maybe you could Choice Scarf it and have a partner Pokémon Toxic Zangoose? Anyway, Diggersby doesn't have a niche because of Zangoose, and Zangoose is really rare and forgotten about anyway (FYI when nominations are back open I'll nominate Zangoose for C Rank, where Diggersby should have been). EDIT: Zangoose is more powerful raw, lo makes Diggersby SLIGHTLY more powerful but like I said earlier you can just toxic your own Zangoose with an ally. I would personally use Zangoose over Diggersby, but I guess it's up to you. Maybe put Diggersby in D for now and Zangoose can join it later?

Raikou Placement
I guess C? Never used it, but seems like an inferior Zapdos/Thundurus...

Landorus-T Rising to S-Rank
Never used the guy and never had much trouble with it on the ladder. Against people who know how to use it such as Pwnemon and Laga, though, he is truly terrifying so I concur with S.

Tyranitar Dropping to A-Rank
What? No! Tyranitar is like the best Rock-Type in the tier, carries a whole team archetype of Sand and is a really good Choice Band/Scarf user on non-Sand dedicated teams. Like 80% of my teams just end up using Tyranitar, even if I don't mean to use him, and just add him 5th or 6th because he is what a bunch of teams in this tier need. You could even run gimmicky Unnerve sets, as Berries hold some merit in this tier. Just... no... keep in S-Rank...

Charizard Dropping to A-Rank

Lol no. Come on, Charizard is the best Pokémon in the tier right now imo. Even though Tyranitar is becoming more popular that shows what a huge threat Charizard is -- having it's counters be popular to.. counter it. Charizard-X can pull late-game sweeps, even in Doubles, and Charizard-Y can spam Heat Waves superbly. Don't drop it, that's an awful idea...

Klefki and Whimsicott Dropping to C-Rank
Yup. Prankster is nice, they don't have very good bulk, awful offense, are subject to their own awful niches (swagplay, Beat Up + Terrakion) so yeah, put these guys down in C.

Escavalier Rising to B-Rank
Used to be a huge threat in this meta in Trick Room, haven't seen any this meta but it's power shouldn't be very different really. This hasn't been a very "bulky" transition, so I would say B. Once I try it out I might nominate the guy for A-Rank, because by Theorymon I think him that good.

Torterra and Mantine dropping to D-Rank
Torterra yes, Mantine no. Torterra is just outclassed at what it wants to do, and I've yet to run into a successful set anyway. Mantine, on the other hand, can actually support it's team with options such as Wide Guard and Icy Wind, and is a very good Rain Counter with Swift Swim and Air Slash to hit Ludicolo, and even HP Grass for something like Carracosta. Mantine is too good to drop, but nobody even tries it. This isn't even a case of "obviously outclassed" because Mantine is unique...
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The reason Diggersby is being discussed is because it has the third most powerful EQ in the game, right behind Mega Chomp and Mega Chomp in Sand, and that is without LO. Can goose isn't relevant in any way shape or form by comparison so I'm not sure what you're even doing by bringing up that it has a good Facade set. Any Normal type with high attack can have a good Facade set. Doesn't mean they get Huge Power STAB Earthquake to go along with it.
 
BlankZero said:
The reason Diggersby is being discussed is because it has the third most powerful EQ in the game, right behind Mega Chomp and Mega Chomp in Sand, and that is without LO. Can goose isn't relevant in any way shape or form by comparison so I'm not sure what you're even doing by bringing up that it has a good Facade set. Any Normal type with high attack can have a good Facade set. Doesn't mean they get Huge Power STAB Earthquake to go along with it.
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Well Earthquake being weak isn't exactly a problem in the Doubles metagame. The whole point with Zangoose is that it has Toxic Boost to boost it's already great attack to obscene levels, and then you have Facade on top of that. If it's a powerful Earthquake you want then Diggersby should be D at the very very best, I would prefer E because Earthquake is hardly weak lol. I presumed it was Normal-Typing since that was the only thing which made sense for me.
 
Celever said:
Well Earthquake being weak isn't exactly a problem in the Doubles metagame. The whole point with Zangoose is that it has Toxic Boost to boost it's already great attack to obscene levels, and then you have Facade on top of that. If it's a powerful Earthquake you want then Diggersby should be D at the very very best, I would prefer E because Earthquake is hardly weak lol. I presumed it was Normal-Typing since that was the only thing which made sense for me.
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You've completely lost the point here. Zangoose has no Spread moves at all. Toxic Boost is a terrible ability with a minuscule niche (even Poison Heal is better) as you don't even get immunity from the damage Toxic will cause over time, severely limiting any sweep potential you have. Couple that with 73/60/60 defenses and a terrible 90 speed (most awkward speed tier besides lol 91 Lando), plus Diggersby gets a higher attack stat based in its ability alone. In Doubles, glass cannons are awful, and glass cannons that take residual damage as part if their best set are even worse.
 
BlankZero said:
You've completely lost the point here. Zangoose has no Spread moves at all. Toxic Boost is a terrible ability with a minuscule niche (even Poison Heal is better) as you don't even get immunity from the damage Toxic will cause over time, severely limiting any sweep potential you have. Couple that with 73/60/60 defenses and a terrible 90 speed (most awkward speed tier besides lol 91 Lando), plus Diggersby gets a higher attack stat based in its ability alone. In Doubles, glass cannons are awful, and glass cannons that take residual damage as part if their best set are even worse.
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But diggersby has next to no bulk, so it's a glass cannon lol.
 
can't we just all agree that zangoose and diggersby are two equally terrible mons?

edit: no seriously be real guys diggersby is terrible because of how outclassed it is. Don't come at me with your "slightly more powerful than LO chomper" stuff because, while it may be more powerful, it's just not as good due to worse bulk and typing. Using Diggersby over Chomper or Landorus-T is like using Scarf Staraptor over Banded Talonflame just because murh it can hit rock types harder.

It's just bad
 
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Laga said:
can't we just all agree that zangoose and diggersby are two equally terrible mons?
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No. While Diggersby and Zangoose are both pretty bad, Diggersby is much better. Really, I think only Scarf or Trick Room Diggersby is viable, but in general Diggersby has more tools than Zangoose. Diggersby gets U-turn for momentum, STAB priority, and a STAB spread move in Earthquake. It also isn't suicidal like Zangoose, and can be preserved. I remember Audiosurfer running it before on his all E-Rank team with a Sub set, and while I won't deny its overshadowed by similar mons like Lando-T it's got enough tools for C Rank, or maybe D rank, if people feel it's not up to par with other C rank mons. Zangoose I'd honestly put in E Rank :/
 
Why do we have an E rank x_x. Also Zangoose is not being ranked.

Diggersby does have STAB Return, which sets itself apart from other Ground-type users, since it can 2HKO Landorus-T. However it fails to OHKO Rotom-W, which is a bummer.

Diggersby is D/E rank material. It may have a spread move, unlike Medicham, but it's still a slow glasscannon that gets fucked up by faster threats and all the powerful priorities that are flying around. There's really no reason to use Diggersby over Excadrill/Garchomp/Landorus-T. It's just not worth it. It's also nowhere near as useful as some other C rank POkemon currently on the list (ie Abomasnow), which actually have competitive value. I personally wouldn't even list such a gimmicky option, but that's just me.

Landorus-T is S rank material. It saw the most usage in SPL, and it's easy to see why. It's typing is amazing for this tier, and this flying cat is essentially the glue that keeps many dangerous physical threats (and even special threats) of Doubles in check. U-turn + Intimidate are great momentum grabbers, and it's Earthquake is nothing to mess around.

I'd keep Klefki in B rank. With Sleep Clause removed, Safeguard is useful as ever, and Klefki is one of the best Prankster Safeguard users out there, thanks to its lovely Steel / Fairy typing. It can also support the team well with Safe Swag or throwing around T-Waves.
 
Pocket, I have to disagree with your analysis or Diggersby. You're underestimating it quite a bit I think, and I'd like you to maybe try it out before dismissing it outright. A simple set of EQ, Return (or Quick Attack), U-Turn, and Protect paired with something like Follow Me/Tailwind Togekiss can be extremely devastating, and if you give Diggs a Choice Band and Return (replace Protect with Quick Attack), you gain a ton of power on top of that, at the cost of Protect. Even a Scarf (replace Quick Attack with Wild Charge/Rock Slide or even Facade) shores up its poor Speed stat and allows it to fuck things up with aplomb. I suggest you give it a try if anything. It needs a bit if support, but it's definitely C Rank material. And to be fair, Abomasnow was B rank forever without question until we decided to drop it for some reason.
 
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