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I'm going to have to agree with the "why is there even an E rank?" sentiment. With the rank essentially being "don't use this at all", it's just going to end up being literally every single other pokemon not in D and above. Time would be better spent populating and sorting out the upper ranks.
In other words, E rank is the edge. Once something goes below D, it's off the map.
I'm going to have to agree with the "why is there even an E rank?" sentiment. With the rank essentially being "don't use this at all", it's just going to end up being literally every single other pokemon not in D and above. Time would be better spent populating and sorting out the upper ranks.
In other words, E rank is the edge. Once something goes below D, it's off the map.
I would sorta disagree - some Pokemon are good to keep in E rank to make it clear to poeple new to the tier that these Pokemon suck and shouldn't be used, hopefully discouraging them from using them.
There a 3 groups of Pokemon I would like to see in E rank
-those who get too high usage for what they deserve. For example, Alakazam, who currently gets enough usage to make Doubles OU. Noobs need to stop using it. They probably will use it even with it visibly in E rank, but it's better than not having it there.
-Gimmicks - just to make it clear to people that these Pokemon are gimmicks. Shuckle and Chansey fall in this category.
-Pokemon who people may think are popular due to success in either XY singles or past doubles generations. Parasect falls in this category, which was decent in VGC2010 because Kyogre was allowed. Hippowdon falls in this category too because it's good in singles.
Some Pokemon, however, definitely should not be included in E rank. Flygon is one of them. It fits none of these categories. Noobs wouldn't think of using it in the first place, so advertising that it's E rank isn't going to make a difference. And to be fair, it should never have been nominated for a position on the ranking list in the first place.
The issue is deciding where you cut the line between Pokemon that should be made visible as E rank Pokemon and those that don't. My recommendations are pretty broad with regards to keeping Pokemon visible, probably too broad, though I personally don't have an issues with many Pokemon visible in E rank unless they are like Flygon. Everything else on that list could potentially be in one of my 3 groups.
I like Darkmalice's idea for having a specific tier just to show Pokemon that may seem viable but simply aren't. However, those Pokemon should not go in E tier. (E tier should just not exist.) Placing gimmicks in E tier is a poor idea because our current ranking judges Pokemon based off of viability and viability alone, regardless of whether or not they are a gimmick. Consistency is key with rankings like this; it's confusing if suddenly our lowest rank is full of Pokemon from various rankings put there solely because they're gimmicks, and not so much because of their poor viability, sidetracking from the rest of the tiers. A special sideline tier for "gimmicks / Pokemon that don't deserve their usage / Pokemon that are only good in singles" etc would be most beneficial so as to clearly distinguish the viability rankings apart from the usage rankings.
I also agree that there is little point to make an E tier. At that point, most of those Pokemon should just not ever be seen. Also, when you get that low down the viability rankings, too many Pokemon will fit the same definition, as many of the Pokemon in that tier are simply just outclassed or lacking. We might as well just dismiss everything below D tier as "not recommended for use" because to be frank that's what they are.
So that my post isn't a complete sidetrack, I'll throw in my opinions on some changes:
Landorus-T to S tier
Sure. Landorus-T is the type of Pokemon that isn't broken but has everything it needs to be outstanding. People have already ranted about it so I won't go too in depth but its typing + Intimidate + stats make it terrific. It can also check every other Pokemon in S tier and a majority of the Pokemon in A tier, which few other Pokemon can claim to do.
Volcarona to B tier
I have been strongly opposed to this for a while but many people have brought up solid points already so I won't be objecting. Volcarona is an extremely potent sweeper, but unfortunately, the things that counter it will always counter it, making it risky and tricky to use. It doesn't have the defenses of Heatran nor the immediate power of Mega Charizard Y, leaving it outclassed somewhat, and though it can boost its stats well, its weaknesses keep it from solidly staying in A tier, so yeah B it goes.
Diggersby placement
Gonna have to agree with Pocket here. Diggersbly is outclassed way too much. The fact that it relies on speed control or follow me support is really a let down, as it really can't accomplish much without loads of support. It really doesn't even hit hard enough for that to make up for a higher spot, and doesn't have a unique and useful typing like Azumarill. I think it should go in D tier; it is outclassed and relies on support too much.
i changed E rank's description but while i was down there i found some pokemon that don't belong. Liepard and Parasect in particular. The former has prankster Encore, which is literally hitler by itself and is only compounded by its access to Fake Out, which forces the opponent to choose between protecting and getting encored or not protecting and getting blasted by its partner when it fakes them out. Rounding out its moveset is STAB Foul Play and Thunder Wave which means it can invest almost fully in bulk (hell, even minimizing its own attack to reduce confusion damage) while still hitting pretty hard and being fast as fuck. Honestly, Liepard deserves C rank; it's better than klefki simply because of Encore and Fake Out. (also it can run swagger if ur an trolly bastard)
Parasect is a much worse pokemon but has the niche of getting access to both Rage Powder and Wide Guard, which no other Pokemon in the game does, making it a semi-legitimate replacement for amoonguss on rain teams. I'd be fine with it staying E rank, but access to Wide Guard makes it usable over amoonguss and pushes it up into D territory IMO. It's certainly not worse than asslamar
But i digress. Votes:
Volcarona: A(-)
Quiver Dance Volcarona is still ridiculously threatening since it's basically the one fire type in the game that you can't just rely on a ground type to check. In addition, it gets Rage Powder, which is a great clutch move on an otherwise offensive Pokemon. Though its rock weakness does it no favors, it can certainly be worked around, and rain is far less prominent in this meta while sun is actually not shit. If it was good last gen, it's only got room to improve this gen, and i think it was good last gen. Diggersby: KILL
Every physical ground type must be vetted with the same question: Why am I using this instead of Landorus-T or Garchomp? In Diggersby's case, Quick Attack is simply not enough of a reason.
Raikou: D
Strictly outclassed by Mega Manectric unless you can't make room for a mega on your team. That said, if you really can't, the niche of a non-flying fast electric type (and it gets snarl!) is good enough to keep it out of butts rank
Landorus-T: S
easy call. Landorus-T is perhaps the single best Pokemon in the metagame; easy to slap onto any team and cover a wide variety of threats. It has four distinct sets that each wreak havoc with QuakeEdge coverage and gets U-turn to boot, for easy intimidate shuffling.
Tyranitar: A
tyranitar is a good pokemon but there are simply way too many Pokemon in this metagame that threaten it. It can't maintain an S rank position with 124 weaknesses, because you really have to baby it around to avoid terrakion / landorus-t / rotom / scizor / escav / charizard / genesect / etcetcetc
Charizard: Abstain
It could go either way. If you have no fire resists, expect to lose pokemon to it. In addition, Drought support removes water weaknesses and lets Pokemon like chlorosaur be good. however, charizard is beaten by most things naturally faster than it and has a vicious rock weakness. There are also Pokemon that can reliably wall it, such as Heatran and Goodra. Klefki / Whimsicott: C / D respectively
prankster thunder waves are simply not enough to make these pokemon good. Anyways, they're outclassed by Liepard.
Escavalier: C
I simply haven't been able to make escavalier work this gen. It's constantly at risk of getting burned, but more importantly, things hit just slightly too hard and it hits just slightly not hard enough. Torterra / Mantine: KILL
wipe both of these from the list entirely; theyre legit terrible and should never be used. Theyre also not common enough to get a spot in E rank.
Ya'll have until Sunday to post your thoughts on these nominations. There are some pretty important potential changes involving S rank Pokemon, which is why I have kept it up for long. People need to post more or a simple 3-2 majority might change the rankings :O
We will have one more round of nominations to deal with sleep meta changes *cough* Amoonguss *cough* Breloom and others *cough*, and after that, we will divide the tiers into sub-ranks! So lgi guyz
i changed E rank's description but while i was down there i found some pokemon that don't belong. Liepard and Parasect in particular. The former has prankster Encore, which is literally hitler by itself and is only compounded by its access to Fake Out, which forces the opponent to choose between protecting and getting encored or not protecting and getting blasted by its partner when it fakes them out. Rounding out its moveset is STAB Foul Play and Thunder Wave which means it can invest almost fully in bulk (hell, even minimizing its own attack to reduce confusion damage) while still hitting pretty hard and being fast as fuck. Honestly, Liepard deserves C rank; it's better than klefki simply because of Encore and Fake Out. (also it can run swagger if ur an trolly bastard)
Parasect is a much worse pokemon but has the niche of getting access to both Rage Powder and Wide Guard, which no other Pokemon in the game does, making it a semi-legitimate replacement for amoonguss on rain teams. I'd be fine with it staying E rank, but access to Wide Guard makes it usable over amoonguss and pushes it up into D territory IMO. It's certainly not worse than asslamar
Amoonguss serves the same role as it always did: a bulky Rage Powder sponge. However, you could previously laugh it off if it wasn't using Rage Powder and sleep clause had been activated. In this metagame, it still may have its flaws (like a propensity to do nothing ever vs the increasingly popular sub users and its weakness to common attack types like Fire) but it's still a valuable RP user, and it now takes a little more skill to play around—also it shuts down full tr Braverius take notice
I don't know if Breloom deserves a rank jump alongside amoonguss. It gives the illusion of being a threat in most battles where I face it, but it's awkward to use whenever I try to run it. It's a threat to any slow, bulky team that cannot threaten it effectively offensively, but the fact is it's too damn slow and frail to put in much work against anything but the most bulky of team builds. This could easily be simply that it doesnt mesh with my playstyle and idk what the fuck i'm talking about though, in which case tell me i'm wrong
When did Dragonite, Greninja, Hariyama, Metagross, and Virizion drop down from B to C rank, and Goth and Liepard up from E to D rank?
I'm not against the changes (though I'm borderline about Metagross' drop and I agree with moving Liepard up to C); I'm more curious, and I thought I should make it more obvious, as many people may miss the drops and may want to nominate against them, which is even more important before we subrank Pokemon.
That was in a discussion a while back on irc. Feel free to nom them back if you don't think they deserve it. We just decided to do it hastily instead of wasting the noms on these unimportant mons that were pretty much obviously wrong.
Nominating Gardevoir for B-Rank.
<&Pwnemon> Gardevoir is the most overrated Pokemon ever
This. I feel Mega Gardevoir is pretty overrated. It has the power Pixiliate Hyper voice, but is pretty predictable, and has low defense and only Mediocre speed. I don't feel as it is up to par with with other A-rank mons like Latios or Conkeldurr. IT does have a fantastic special attack and movepool, which makes it a solid B-rank mon, but I don't feel it's A rank.
Nominating Weavile for B rank. It's been showed how solid a mon it is through many SPL matches. IT has a high speed, high attack, and useful movepool with moves such as Beat Up and Fake Out. A Fast Ice attacker in general is very useful, as a lot of the top threats in the meta (Garchomp, Lando-T), are weak to it.
Finally, Nominating Azumarill for A Rank. It hits extremely hard, and has quite a few good sets, such as Assault Vest, Belly Drum, and Choice Band. Its dual typing beats a lot of popular threats such as Lando-T, Garchomp, and Heatran.
These noms will also be up this round because they missed the cut last time by a few minutes. This puts us at six noms, so if anyone else has a nom they want to do before we divide each rank into subranks, get it in soon!
I would sorta disagree - some Pokemon are good to keep in E rank to make it clear to poeple new to the tier that these Pokemon suck and shouldn't be used, hopefully discouraging them from using them.
There a 3 groups of Pokemon I would like to see in E rank
-those who get too high usage for what they deserve. For example, Alakazam, who currently gets enough usage to make Doubles OU. Noobs need to stop using it. They probably will use it even with it visibly in E rank, but it's better than not having it there.
-Gimmicks - just to make it clear to people that these Pokemon are gimmicks. Shuckle and Chansey fall in this category.
-Pokemon who people may think are popular due to success in either XY singles or past doubles generations. Parasect falls in this category, which was decent in VGC2010 because Kyogre was allowed. Hippowdon falls in this category too because it's good in singles.
Some Pokemon, however, definitely should not be included in E rank. Flygon is one of them. It fits none of these categories. Noobs wouldn't think of using it in the first place, so advertising that it's E rank isn't going to make a difference. And to be fair, it should never have been nominated for a position on the ranking list in the first place.
The issue is deciding where you cut the line between Pokemon that should be made visible as E rank Pokemon and those that don't. My recommendations are pretty broad with regards to keeping Pokemon visible, probably too broad, though I personally don't have an issues with many Pokemon visible in E rank unless they are like Flygon. Everything else on that list could potentially be in one of my 3 groups.
Look at the list and tell me what physical flying types you see. I count five, if you count both forms of Landorous. Flying is a great offensive typing now, synergizing well with many other types like ground, fire, and fighting. Talonflame is generally what comes to mind when someone mentions using a fast frail flying type, and for a slower (compared to Talonflame) bulkier and stronger flying type with intimidate, people seldom look past Landorous. They are both good, and are in the upper ranks is for a good reason, but I think that Staraptor can do both jobs. It is faster than Landorous, and stronger than Talonflame which I think is a good niche to have on a team. It has great coverage with brave bird and close combat, tail wind for team support, and detect. All of these factors add up in my opinion to make a very usable Pokemon in the doubles meta game.
Look at the list and tell me what physical flying types you see. I count five, if you count both forms of Landorous. Flying is a great offensive typing now, synergizing well with many other types like ground, fire, and fighting. Talonflame is generally what comes to mind when someone mentions using a fast frail flying type, and for a slower (compared to Talonflame) bulkier and stronger flying type with intimidate, people seldom look past Landorous. They are both good, and are in the upper ranks is for a good reason, but I think that Staraptor can do both jobs. It is faster than Landorous, and stronger than Talonflame which I think is a good niche to have on a team. It has great coverage with brave bird and close combat, tail wind for team support, and detect. All of these factors add up in my opinion to make a very usable Pokemon in the doubles meta game.
I'll get some ASAP.
It's useful as a lead with most of my frailer mons because intimidate, and because base 100 speed is pretty good, it can usually set up a tail wind before going down. I'm not sure how it compares to most of the C rank, because I don't see them often, but the definition of C rank is this, and I quote with a few highlights here and there to show the specific parts I'm referencing (sorry, don't know how to put the quote like above i. The middle of my responses) "Reserved for Pokemon that can work okay within the Doubles metagame. However, they either have crippling flaws that prevent consistent performance or require much team support to work on most teams. Pokemon that have a few niches in the metagame but are mainly outclassed by higher-ranked Pokemon also belong here."
To sum it all up, Staraptor is not the best flying type. I think that a fast intimidating physical flying type with good coverage is worth mentioning and ranking. And of you don't believe me still, here is the set that I'm having success with.
Staraptor @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature
- Brave Bird
- Close Combat
- Tailwind
- Detect
I'm not too good, but I use it to good success, so there must be some quality there. I won't be able to get replays until the weekend, but trust me when I say that I have done well using that Staraptor set.
I'd say Choice Scarf Reckless Staraptor does a better job than Tailwind Sitrus. While it does face ridiculous competition from Talonflame, since priority negates Speed control, normal burd still has a few things over fire burd.
1) Now first of all it is a tad bit more powerful, and those fast frail threats that are neutral have a higher chance of getting OHKOd - for example, Latios
252+ Atk Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latios: 294-346 (97.3 - 114.5%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latios: 283-334 (93.7 - 110.5%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
This is also relevant if a bulky Landorus-T is switching in on it. This counts for most hp invested Landorus, even if they only have around 120 EVs+
-1 252+ Atk Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 178-210 (46.5 - 54.9%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 171-202 (44.7 - 52.8%) -- 26.6% chance to 2HKO
2) CLOSE COMBAT. The ability to fuck over ttar is just amazing, but I guess hitting scizor and ferro harder are plusses of STAB Flare Blitz, but being able to snipe down that threatening ttar is just invaluable.
3) Final Gambit / Double-Edge. Now you can really choose yourself with this slot. Final Gambit is a great "oh shit that's a huge threat" button to take down an opposing Pokemon with you (Staraptor has respectable HP, especially if you speed creep + invest a bit). On the other hand, Double-Edge is going to hit Electric-types ridiculously hard, especially if it's on the switch; this is something that Talonflame fails to do, especially in the case of Rotom-W.
It's a tight battle of the two, but there are reasons to use ScarfRaptor over Talonflame if your requirements are team-specific for the slot, and I highly doubt Staraptor does any job better (maybe Choice Band could work :o)
Staraptor is a solid C rank mon. While it is outclassed, it has a great niche in Flying/fighting overage with a heavy Normal STAB. Tornadus has a better flying/fighting coverage I feel with Defiant Acro/Superpower, but it lacks that Reckless boost for a great BB/Double Edge. I think Banded could work too since it has a lot of power and a respectable speed tier to work with. It's no 126, but it's good.
Btw even if we don't mention most of the Pokemon from E rank, I am really keen on keeping Alakazam mentioned specifically because it is somehow OU in Doubles.
Henceforth I'm nominating Vivillon for D-rank. A somewhat fast sleep inducer that can actually deal damage unlike Jumpluff - Compound Eyes Hurricane is pretty good. Main issues holding it back are 89 base speed which for a Pokemon relying on speed will fall short against fast teams, reliance on Focus Sash, and it cannot capitalise well on the sleep itself (as long as you take its STABs its fine. However, the main issue is Vivillon's teammate.)
On that topic nominating Jumpluff for C-rank. I'll be perfectly honest, I have never played with it before, I rarely see it on the ladder, and when I do, I faint it quickly before it can do anything, but I feel it should be ranked. I wouldn't be surprised if it ends up in D-rank.
Fast sleep inducer (110 >>> 89) is the big selling point. Used right, it should put something to sleep. It can actually abuse the sleep it sets up with Substitute, Leech Seed, and Encore, but it's best used to set up a teammate. Infiltrator Sleep Powder means some methods to block sleep fail completely - Safeguard and Sub. Has other support options like Encore and Rage Powder which are cool. Downsides are it's largely dependent on sleep to function which means misses or early turn wakes can screw it over, zero offence, completely useless against Grass-types, and bad defensive typing.
Also, Ninetales for D-rank.
I still stand by the decision to move it into D-rank before, which is now E-rank.
My reasoning, which I still agree with. I have copy and pasted this.
Ninetales has two main niches over Charizard. The first is setting up sunlight for Mega Houndoom. The second is to be used alongside Mega Zard Y for more sunlight. Both involve stacking weaknesses, and Ninetales doesn't offer anything over those other two other than Drought - you'd be better off with a manual Sunny Day user. And that, by the way, was recommended in 5th gen even when Drought provided permanent sun. First turn sun isn't enough to justify its use, as Ninetales is easy to outlead against, doesn't help that every other weather starter has a good lead match up against it, even Abomasnow as it gets its hail up and then swaps out.
It's ouclassed by Zard-Y. The lack of an Electric-type weakness and x4 Rock-type weakness means little when Zard can hit Rotom-W and Thundurus much harder than Ninetales and the most common Rock Slide abusers can still OHKO you - Tyranitar's Rock Slide is likely to OHKO with sandstorm chip damage, Landorus-T and Garchomp have EQ for you.
In short, when you are outclassed by Zard-Y in most things, and by manual sun in everything else, that relegates you to D-rank.
The reason I am voting for D-rank is in the definition for D-rank.
"Reserved for Pokemon with very specific niches in the Doubles metagame. These Pokemon are mostly outclassed in their roles, but they may have a situational typing, move, or role that a certain team desires. You cannot just plop on of these Pokemon on a team and expect it to do work."
That specific niche is providing Drought support for Mega Houndoom. No other Pokemon can provide this. This is the only task that the combination of Zard-Y and manual sun cannot outclass you with - for example, switching in Ninetales for a quick sunlight instead of waiting to switch in a manual sun user to do the job.
If you're not using Ninetales for this, then don't use it. It's a bad Pokemon used to help another bad Pokemon.
Also I am trying to make the descriptions effective but it is hard to judge the difference of an "decent" niche and a "small" niche. It's great to take the descriptions into account, but it is also very important to just simply look at the other mons in the rank. For example, B rank is full of Pokemon that are great in the metagame and theorymoning Pokemon into B rank hastily just makes the rankings sucky.
Breloom- No, it's B. There are a lottt of really good Pokemon in B rank that Breloom doesn't separate itself from just because of Spore.
Vivillon- Yea, it fits with the D mons.
Gardevoir- I still find this to be an A rank threat. It is actually a very useful alternative to Mega-Zard-Y as a fast immensely powerful spread sweeper. It isn't the glass cannon I thought it was either
after playing with it more and finding out just what kinda of hits it can take(Modest actually has a higher chance to ohko Bisharp with Hyper Voice than LO Sucker Punch has to ohko it).
Weavile- Yes. STAB upgrade makes it better this gen and fast Fake Out will always be there.
Azumarill- I am on the fence. It faces competition from other Waters in A rank that offer more than "priority." Also, it makes you really weak to Skymin and Rotom-W and not much wants to switch into those things. However, aside from those only Gyarados and Sun really cockblock it and it performs consistently decent in the meta.
Staraptor- Still haven't used it. Laga seemed adamant enough about it for C rank.
Jumpluff- Yea C rank is pretty good for it because it can't run any attacking moves without compromising its sleep effectiveness and has to use all 4 moveslots and item to spreading sleep well. Although it does a damn good job at putting things to sleep.
Ninetales- I disagree with Darkmalice saying those reasons merit D rank on the rankings. However, I do believe that Ninetales has a niche in Hypnosis now that sleep clause is lifted. I have used it a bit and have noticed it put in some work. 100 speed is pretty fast. Drought base 81 Heat Wave is pretty cheap power(Timid 252 Ninetales is as strong as Modest 252 Tran) which is good for building up chip dmg fast against things you put to sleep. Finally, 73/75/100 bulk with a base 100 speed WoW is pretty decent. If you run double status you can pair it with Mega Kanga(unlike Zard) and have a shot at crippling something. It also has notable other options in Pain Split and Solar Beam/newly buffed Energy Ball.
You can pair Ninetales with Wash, Kanga, Top, Landog, or whatever to combat Landog which would seemingly give it trouble. Even Ttar's Rock Slide can't 2hko you due to WoW. Note: this is a specially defensive Pokemon too.
252+ Atk burned Landorus-T Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Ninetales: 92-109 (26.2 - 31.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
-1 252+ Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Ninetales: 246-290 (70.2 - 82.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk burned Tyranitar Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Ninetales: 130-154 (37.1 - 44%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after sandstorm damage
88+ SpA Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Ninetales in Sun: 146-174 (41.7 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
My thoughts on MegaVoir:Hyper Voice in probably the most reliable spread damage I've seen in the game, dealing negligible damage only to Heatran. Speed control and helping hand are necessary though, as Gardevoir relies heavily on KOing things before they can touch it. For this reason something like Togekiss or Jirachi does nicely, being able to bolster speed one turn, and then draw fire or guarantee a KO on the next. Gardevoir certainly does one job extremely well, but not with minimal team support. Gardevoir is kind of not going to do much without teammates specifically devoted to making it function, and for that reason I see it as B Rank. Yes, Megavoir does incredible damage, but it absolutely needs a buddy to lean on.
- Amoonguss is EASILY A rank now that the extreme amounts of fire-type-hype has cooled down (pun intended heheuhu), and also both a great counter and teammate on or against a TR team.
- Breloom is A rank. It's Focus Sash set is ridiculously threatening right now as it can guarenteed put one Pokemon to Sleep, and much more often than not deal some significant damage on top of that. The best part about Breloom as a Sleep-inducer is that it takes advantage of it so well itself instead of just ease up its teammates' jobs. (BTW I think we should get to splitting A and B ranks into + and - in which case Breloom would fit best in A-)
- Gardevoir is probly B rank by now. Scarf isn't as surprising and powerful as it used to be, and as a Mega, it doesn't really have the bulk or the pure power that it needs in the current metagame. I think this needs to drop.
