Doubles Viability Rankings (C- Votes if u care lol)

  • I don't think Azumarill is A rank worthy now. It has no way to work around its Attack drops, and if it is burned or -1, its damage output is crappy. It is also slow af, meaning if its Attack is crippled, it is extremely manipulable. The only thing A rank material potentially is Follow Me/Rage Powder + Belly Drum, which is scary af, but it takes so much team support and proper playing that it probably not worth the raise.
  • Vivillon and Jumpluff fit in C, with Jumpluff maybe in D. They are both reliable sleepers, but they cannot take any hit to save their lives. Vivillon is more impressive due to Compound Eyes + Sleep Powder + Hurricane, but compared to the other B rank mons, C just seems more right.
 
Is everyone allowed to vote? Disregard what I say If I'm not supposed to vote.

Amoonguss rising to A rank.
I've been testing Amoonguss on my team. It works well as a status spreader and Rage Powder helps my Dragon Dance Tyrantitar. Now that sleep clause is lifted, I think the role of bulky sleep spreader is important enough the be considered A rank.

Breloom rising to A rank.
Breloom's Mach Punch = Scizor's Bullet Punch. That is the one point that everyone seems to ignore. It can spread sleep with spore and the power of it's Mach Punch's power EASILY warrants it being A rank in my opinion.

Weavile rising to B rank.
I think having an extremely powerful STAB knockoff and Ice Shard is a great niche, especially with the popularity of Landorus-T and Garchomp. But it is just to frail, and has too crappy of a defensive typing. STAB Bullet Punch, Mach Punch, Brave Bird, and even some Extreme Speeds OHKO or 2HKO it, so priority from anything it can't OHKO with Ice Shard will likely kill it.
252+ Atk Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Weavile: 140-165 (49.6 - 58.5%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO (Ice Shard is a 2HKO)
184 Atk Hitmontop Mach Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Weavile: 288-340 (102.1 - 120.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Sharp Beak Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Weavile: 244-288 (86.5 - 102.1%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO (Ice Shard is a 3HKO)
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Weavile: 723-858 (256.3 - 304.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Weavile: 306-362 (108.5 - 128.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Over all, I think that C is a good place for Weavile, and that is where it should stay in my opinion.

Jumpluff being added to C rank.
I've never used it, but I'm sure that with the frequency of sun that a chlorophyll sleep powder without sleep clause is definitely C rank worthy

Ninetales rising to D rank.
Besides the niche of providing sun for Mega-Houndoom, I think that having a back-up sun provider is a useful asset on any team. Definitely D rank in my opinion.
 
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Is everyone allowed to vote? Disregard what I say If I'm not supposed to vote.
anyone can submit their opinions on shifts in rankings :) just be sure to properly support your positions so people can understand your rationale in wanting/arguing against a particular shift. also, for future reference, if you don't have an opinion on something, you don't need to mention it in your post. just mention those things you wish to discuss, you don't have to touch on everything proposed for moving.
 
anyone can submit their opinions on shifts in rankings :) just be sure to properly support your positions so people can understand your rationale in wanting/arguing against a particular shift. also, for future reference, if you don't have an opinion on something, you don't need to mention it in your post. just mention those things you wish to discuss, you don't have to touch on everything proposed for moving.
Thanks! I wasn't sure if there was a minimum ladder requirement for voting or something.
 
Jumpluff for C

I support.

I think Jumpluff's niche lies outside of Sun, supporting a partner with its incredibly quick Sleep Powder (and is enhanced by the Sun but does not require it.) Few fully viable Pokemon outspeed Jumpluff in Doubles; Thundurus-I and Talonflame are probably the only notable ones, but the latter would beat it anyway. This makes Jumpluff extremely efficient at providing Sleep and giving setup opportunities to its partners. Yungpluff is a great example of this.

It's main problem is that it can't do much besides that, making C tier a pretty good fit.


Vivillon for C

I support.

Compound Eyes makes its Sleep Powder effectively 98% accurate, and its solid Speed also makes it a great spreader. Don't forget that it has a niche outside of Sleep, too; its Quiver Dance set can hit quite hard and has great coverage. Still, it's easily revenge killed and has poor stats, so C is where it belongs.


Amoonguss for A

I support.

It was pretty much an A tier Pokemon even before the removal of Sleep Clause. Not even addressing its Spore; it has access to other useful support moves, primarily Rage Powder, which is really useful to further support its partner. It's got a great offensive and defensive typing, isn't worn down easily like many other walls, is able to switch out freely, walls a significant portion of the tier, and can hit fairly hard with its STABs. Definitely A.
 
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Am against Jumpluff to C. It's a lousy Pokemon. Besides spamming Sleep, it is pretty much useless and you'd always be better served with another Pokemon in that function. I don't even understand why you'd use it over something like Venusaur that can be a decent mon outside of the dubious niche of sleep spammer anyways. Am against Vivillon too. Neither of these Pokemon are particularly good (like come on now plenty of mons can seriously mess up Vivillon, and 90 SpA isn't exactly striking fear into them) and I fail to see what their niche is outside of having a Sleep move. Vivillon's typing is awful defensively too so the nom makes even less sense given how easy it would be to take Vivillon out in a battle with a reasonably powerful attacker. I'd never recommend them if I were fixing a team, and if I faced one an opponent had I wouldn't feel particularly threatened unless I was underprepped for Sleep. So yeah keep them somewhere else.
 
With that logic, we could push Breloom down a peg or two easily. It's super frail and half of its viability is that it's a faster Spore user than Amoongus. Vivillion isn't the biggest threat, but access to Hurricane/Bug Buzz with nearly perfect Accuracy and 98% Accuracy sleep, plus Quiver Dance. If you really had to, you could even give it a Wide Lens and Sleep/Hurricane Spam all day long without fear of missing. Flying STAB is very excellent in the Metagame, as is Bug. It's holdbacks are frailty and lack of immunity to Sleep that Grass types have, but it has more than enough possitive traits for C Rank.
 
That comparison is awful. Breloom is actually offensively threatening with a combination of Technician boosted attacks and a high attack stat initially, while Vivillon's Special Attack is middling and it is much less threatening as an attacker. Half of its viability isn't in being faster than Amoonguss, but in having Spore + a threatening combination of attacks. While Hurricane is fine STAB, it's still not a threatening mon (in addition Sun totally ruins Hurricane's accuracy, Compoundeyes or no, and Sun is fairly common).
 
That comparison is awful. Breloom is actually offensively threatening with a combination of Technician boosted attacks and a high attack stat initially, while Vivillon's Special Attack is middling and it is much less threatening as an attacker. Half of its viability isn't in being faster than Amoonguss, but in having Spore + a threatening combination of attacks. While Hurricane is fine STAB, it's still not a threatening mon (in addition Sun totally ruins Hurricane's accuracy, Compoundeyes or no, and Sun is fairly common).

It also has Bug Buzz if you don't want to risk Hurricane, and it has the best boosting move in the metagame right now, Geomancy not included. 90 SpAtk isn't a huge deal, but it's not something to scoff at after a QD boost or two is it?
 
What could you be setting up Quiver Dance on when you've got 80/50/50 builk and your typing leaves you with a slew of weaknesses? If you're consistently able to give Vivillon a QD or more, either you're very lucky, you're very skilled, or your opponent is very bad. Regardless, it's hardly something that sets up on many things, and so a QD is rare (especially given you wouldnt have enough moveslots for both STABs + Sleep + Protect + QD, so QD won't be the more used option anyways).
 
Volcarona has 85/60/65 Bulk and manages to find the time to QD quite often, even without Sleep support, so I'm not sure what the argument there is.

We are discussing C Rank btw.
 
Volcarona has 85/60/65 Bulk and manages to find the time to QD quite often, even without Sleep support, so I'm not sure what the argument there is.

We are discussing C Rank btw.
Volcarona only needs one dance to threaten, and the small stat difference is significant when multiplied.
 
I agree with Audiosurfer. Even with Sleep Powder, I would never use Vivillion over something like Volcarona due to its fragility, mediocre STAB coverage, and 4MSS.
Volcarona has 85/60/65 Bulk and manages to find the time to QD quite often, even without Sleep support, so I'm not sure what the argument there is.

We are discussing C Rank btw.
Volcarona has 85 / 65 / 105 defenses with a fairly decent typing that gives it a decent amount of setup opportunities in comparison to Vivillion. It also has better STAB coverage and Speed.
 
ya, I saw 60 Atk and thought herpderp that's the Defense!

Still, it's C Rank nominated and you guys are expecting it to like sweep full teams or something or not get placed.
 
Why are we comparing Vivillon and Volcarona? The first is used to sleep things and then hit the opponent with acceptable power, the latter is used to sweep with Quiver Dance. If you are using QD on Vivillon it's for the speed boost to outspeed more to aid you put more things to sleep, with sweeping with Hurricane after Vivllion has put both opposing Pokemon to sleep, which is it's purpose for use. However, sweeping is unreliable due to the sleep RNG, as you need both opposing Pokemon asleep with Vivillon's inability to take hits. You'd probably be better off using Hurricane, Bug Buzz, and Protect. If you want to compare Vivillon to something, compare it to sleep users because you should never be using Vivillon without Sleep Powder.

Also QD has not been looked upon favourably in Vivillon's C&C analysis by the QC team.

Anyways,
Amoonguss rising to A rank. Best Rage Powder user with great bulk and typing to boost, brilliant against TR teams. Best user at spreading sleep, and without sleep clause, Spore can be used aggressively to help compensate for Amoonguss' lack of power. Definitely

Weavile rising to B rank. I underestimated it when I originally nominated it for C-rank. One of its biggest flaws in previous generations, a lack of high base power STAB, has been nullified with Knock Off's buff. Granted you have to give up Icicle Crash with it, but you still get Low Kick, Ice Punch, and Ice Shard. It fairs well against many of the S-rank Pokemon, beating Tyranitar and Heatran with Low Kick (you need a Focus Sash against Heatran to avoid an OHKO, but that's probably it's best item), beats non-Scarf Landorus-T, and pairs well against Cresselia. And fast Fake Out is good.

Staraptor being added to C rank. It's got perks to justify its use - Flying/Fighting coverage, Reckless for raw power or Intimidate, Tailwind, Final Gambit on Scarf sets. Not exceptional, but it's not bad.

[EDIT] Adding more

Jumpluff for C rank. See my nomination post

Vivillon for D rank. See my nomination post
. I will add, however, that I also feel fine with it being in C rank. I feel Jumpluff is a better fast sleep spreader, but Vivillon has major perks in better accuracy and some offence.

Ninetales for D rank. See my nomination post. Most people seem to disagree with my reasoning of Ninetales + Houndoom, which I'm ok with. It is worth noting that, as also said, that with its Drought, its fire-type attacks have the equivalent of 130 base special attack with a Timid 252 SpA spread and more with a Modest spread. Will-O-Wisp with its speed is also good too; it can outspeed and burn Mega Kang amongst other things (it cannot afford a miss sadly), so it's not useless outside of Drought. Still bad, but not E rank worthy.

Gardevoir for B rank. I'm agreeing with everyone in that the Scarf set has lost its utility due to the changes in the metagame. I feel everyone is bagging on Mega Gard too much, as it does have very good SpA and Special Def, and it has a lot of freedom with its slots as it only needs Hyper Voice + Protect to function - can use TR, Taunt, HP Ground, Calm Mind, and more useful moves to fit what the team needs. The physical bulk is bad though, and its main perk can be done by Syvleon who has better bulk both physically and specially, less weaknesses, and doesn't take up the Mega slot along with having an item to help it do what it wants like Specs or Leftovers.
 
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The argument that Jumpluff does few things other than set things to Sleep is valid, and one that I can accept. However, it's not necessarily COMPLETELY true, as Jumpluff has many other support tools in its arsenal, including Leech Seed, Reflect, Sunny Day, and Rage Powder. Obviously it's not as bulky as Amoonguss, but that's besides the point; it utilizes its massive Speed stat to spread Sleep quickly, and even if said sleep doesn't last as long as a slow Sleep would, you do get almost full control of when and against who you put something to sleep, so it has its advantages. Jumpluff is also not as frail as some of you guys make it seem to be; 75 / 70 / 95 is pretty solid, not too solid in Doubles terms, but definitely acceptable.

Also, as Blank pointed out, we're not putting it in A tier. Low C seems like the best place to put it, so don't expect too much from it.


I don't have as much experience with Vivillon as I do with Jumpluff, so if other more experienced people think it doesn't deserve C, then I'm ok with it going in D. Vivillon's main draw is its almost perfectly accurate Sleep powder, but I understand thay theoretical benefits aren't always as great on the field.
 
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Amoonguss: A rank.

Oh, absolutely. Anything with RP/FM is great in this metagame, and Amoonguss's prior only real problem, its lack of offensive presence, is definitely fixed by its access now to infinite spore. Beyond RP it basically ruins Trick Room singlehandedly, and perhaps most importantly, it serves as probably the best pivot in the game thanks to Regenerator. Very few Pokemon in doubles can really /heal/, which is something I value a lot as a defensive player. But amoonguss can go from 15% to healthy enough to use. Super nifty.

Vivillon: D rank.

It spams sleep and it's frail. This does not deserve to be put in C rank with viable, legitimate Pokemon.

Gardevoir: C rank.

Easy. Gardevoir does not belong on the list of Pokemon that are the best in the Doubles metagame. It hits fairly hard, but it is ridiculously physically frail (68/65) and overall mediocre. The scarf set has lost most of its utility, I think, as people learn to build better teams in this metagame less dismantled by fairy-types. It's been a long time since i've been scared by a Gardevoir, and though it's an ok pokemon, it's certainly not great.

Staraptor: C Rank.

Not too much to say here, it's a pretty easy call for me. All it has on Talon is beating Tran and Rotom-W, but often these are teams' only answers to flying-type attacks. Shame the speed tier isn't a smidge higher but hey, C rank is a good place for it.

Ninetales: E rank.

It's the only way you can use mega houndoom. This is perhaps the worst idea and the worst niche in all of doubles, except skill swap + slaking and friends. Tales + Mega Houndoom is pretty awful weakness stacking to water/ground/fire, and Tales on its own is basically rendered entirely useless. That said, I wouldn't too much mind it moving up.
 
Ninetales: E rank.

It's the only way you can use mega houndoom. This is perhaps the worst idea and the worst niche in all of doubles, except skill swap + slaking and friends. Tales + Mega Houndoom is pretty awful weakness stacking to water/ground/fire, and Tales on its own is basically rendered entirely useless. That said, I wouldn't too much mind it moving up.
Just wanted to point out that you can always use Sunny Day Cress if you want to use Solar Power Mega Houndoom. Nasty Plot probably works just as well with Jirachi / Togekiss support. I personally didn't have much success when I used Mega Houndoom with Sunny Day support (possible reasons: it's shit / my team is shit / I'm shit / all of the above), so that probably speaks for Ninetales's viability with Mega Houndoom. I honestly can't think of a reason to use Ninetales outside of "everything else on my team that gets Sunny Day has 4MSS and I'm already using a non-Zard Mega."
 
Amoonguss rising to A rank.
I agree. In TR it can disable anything that is not immune to Spore. With sleep and Rage Powder it can easily create free turns for its partner.

Breloom rising to A rank.
I disagree. 70 base speed is meh. Requires team support and is weak to common threats. Even though sash version is scary, not as much as Amoonguss.

Vivillon being added to C rank.
I disagree, it should be D in my opinion.

Staraptor being added to C rank.
I agree. Intimidate, Close Combat and Brave Bird are good :I
 
Whissp, you are forgetting that Breloom's Mach Punch is just as strong as Scizor's Bullet Punch, and it checks Rotom-W hard, as well as helps check Kanga, Heatran, and with Sash up, is guaranteed a Sleep or two. It also has Offensive presence, something Amoongus lacks entirely.
 
Whissp, you are forgetting that Breloom's Mach Punch is just as strong as Scizor's Bullet Punch, and it checks Rotom-W hard, as well as helps check Kanga, Heatran, and with Sash up, is guaranteed a Sleep or two. It also has Offensive presence, something Amoongus lacks entirely.
Scizor's Bullet Punch is threatening because it can run SD Life Orb though which hits 160% harder which Breloom doesn't have the typing/bulk to pull off. Spore would allow it to be feasible, but you don't have enough slots at that point :(
Breloom feels like a B+/A- mon at the most in this meta. A lot of the other mons in A(including the other shroom being discussed now) are way better.
 
Amoonguss rising to A rank.
Agreed, it's bulky af, it has Rage Powder, Regenerator and Spore without sleep clause is ridiculous. Basically, if you're unprepared for Amoonguss and you see it on team preview, there is a huge chance you will lose.

Breloom rising to A rank.
I have barely seen this thing around but I suppose powerful prio + Spore is pretty gr8 with a Sash. Based on theorymon I'd say yes though.

Vivillon being added to C rank.
The only thing it's got over Volcarona is access to an accurate sleep move, but considering how important that can be I am in favor of this. However, I feel like D-rank would be fine too, as it's really easy to kill off for faster teams.

Gardevoir dropping to B rank.
It's been a while since I used her, but I do know that she hits really hard with Hyper Voice and dies really quickly if you're not using bulkier sets with W-o-W like cool me :toast: I'm in favor, it's still really scary but the metz is pretty hostile towards it atm imo

Weavile rising to B rank.
Fast Fake Out, Knock Off, pretty stronk, Ice Shard for more priority(?), it's got plenty of useful shit going on so yeah it's cool imo.

Azumarill rising to A rank.
Belly Drum shreds, no doubt. However, it's hard to set up without proper support (although shroom pairs extremely well with it typing-wise and gets Rage Powder so that sucks :<) and being a physical attacker is always annoying in a meta where burns and Intimidate are so common. On the fence on this one.

Staraptor being added to C rank.
Got plenty of things going for it: hits harder than talonbird with Reckless, provides more team support with Intimidate, can actually beat shit like Ttar and Washtom reliably, it's also the coolest bird. Of course Talonbird is usually the better choice but I support C rank.

Jumpluff being added to C rank.
D rank is good for it, considering it's a very niche mon, but it has enough things going for it to keep it out of E rank. A fast Encore is annoying as fuck.

Ninetales rising to D rank.
No.
 
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