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I suggest to put Ferrothorn and Jellicent into A-rank.
Jellicent does not even need Trick Room to function; Scald / Toxic / Recover / Protect /w Leftovers and maximum defensive investment is incredibly good as well, being a cold stop to so many threats it isn't even funny anymore; Politoed, Gastrodon, Reuniclus... Only powerful heavily invested SE hits bring it down fast.
That leaves its offensive Trick Room sets with Water Spout, for which Nollan suggested it to go A-rank as well, but its stall set out there is just as good.
Ferrothorn is just great in general. Yes, keep it out of Fire- and Fighting attacks, but outside of that it can take hits for days as long as it isn't a Power Herb Kyurem-B Freeze Shock and finds turns to set Leech Seed which it can do repeatedly. T-Tar, Thundurus and Gastrodon are just examples of things that are stopped cold by it.
Both are Taunt-bait, but they can switch out or Protect if the Taunt is overly obvious while something else attacks the Taunter, even just attack. However, Scald and Power Whip/Gyro Ball respectively can deal some major damage even if not invested, which is never bad.
There are plenty of reasons to use Jellicent over Rotom-W: Water Absorb, reliable recovery, and the Ghost-typing are all solid perks. I agree that C rank is pretty harsh for it because it does fit quite well on many teams, especially trick room. A rank is far too high for a Pokemon with little offenses that supports the team almost purely by walling, but I can see a possible promotion to B rank.
The same thing applies to Ferrothorn. What can it do to support the team other than wall stuff. Leech Seed is pretty gimmicky and its not like Ferrothorn can threaten most switch-ins. The downside to Ferrothorn's typing is the abundance of Heat Wave in Doubles. While it does have its niches as a Wall, they are not enough to be put any higher than C on the rankings imo.
Edit: wait why is ferrothorn B rank lol suggest for possible demotion i guess.
I see no reason to use jellicent when you have rotom-W, and absolutely NO reason to use ferro over thick fat mega venu who loves fighting and fire attacks which is great for this meta. Most relevant threats simply DGAF about ferro or demolish it, there's NO reason to use it doubles aside from iron barbs over amoong or venusaur. Jellicent has no edge over rotom in dubs tbh, You can't speed control at all unlike rotom, the typing for the metagame sucks cause you have to deal with shit like ttar compared to rotom, etc. Overall just no. Neither of them are qualified to even TOUCH A rank. This is not singles, if it was maybe they'd be better, but no, this is doubles, and the environment and competition makes them honestly just 'meh' at best. Both for C+ while being GENEROUS imo
Your posting habits are terrible, and your general tone makes you seem like an asshole. Look at yourself, you even have two quotes by yourself in your signature.
I would actually think that they both qualify for B rank. Jellicent is one of the better TR setters due to having Water Spout and an amazing defensive typing. Ferrothorn isn't as solid of a B rank, and I might say that it is C rank, due to it kind of being a sitting duck.
Whimsicott is the fastest Prankster user in the game and has access to both Taunt and Encore. This can shut down other Prankster users in the A and B Ranks such as Thundurus and Klefki. Whimsicott also gained new typing, which added resistances to Dark, Fighting, and an immunity to Dragon. These changes enable Whimsicott to function as a strong Prankster user in the Gen VI Doubles Metagame, although I may be biased as Whimsicott is one of my favorites and I'd hate to see him stay in low C Rank. =P
There are plenty of reasons to use Jellicent over Rotom-W: Water Absorb, reliable recovery, and the Ghost-typing are all solid perks. I agree that C rank is pretty harsh for it because it does fit quite well on many teams, especially trick room. A rank is far too high for a Pokemon with little offenses that supports the team almost purely by walling, but I can see a possible promotion to B rank.
No. Just no. Jellicent can burn things, has a great Water/Ghost typing, and can set Trick Room, all with effcient 100 / 70 / 105 defenses (aka better defenses than Rotom-W who has that lowly HP stat). Not to mention its Water-STAB is great for countering Heatran and Landorus-T who are two pretty common threats atm. And it can stop Kangashkan-Mega in its tracks with Will-O-Wisp. Need I go on? And your comment about purely walling? FALSE.
144+ SpA Jellicent Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Heatran: 254-302 (65.8 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
144+ SpA Jellicent Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 352-416 (110 - 130%) -- guaranteed OHKO
144+ SpA Jellicent Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 180-212 (44.5 - 52.4%) -- 20.7% chance to 2HKO
144+ SpA Jellicent Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latios: 136-160 (45 - 52.9%) -- 28.1% chance to 2HKO
144+ SpA Jellicent Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus: 176-208 (58.6 - 69.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Like seriously.
Put this thing in A Rank right now. :/
-EDIT-
Also posting nominations I did earlier because I wasn't aware of how the new thread worked (whoops x_x). This includes my Jellicent nomination from before, just to go over some of the points I'm making.
Jellicent from C to A
A lot of people underrate Jellicent's utility as a Trick Room setter and nuisance in general. A great typing grants it resistances/immunities to common attacking types (Ice-, Fighting-, Fire-, etc) and it has efficient 100 / 70 / 105 defenses. Oh, it also can check Heatran and the majority of Fighting-types, as well as Kangashkan once it has Mega-Evolved. Along with other options such as WoW, Water Spout, Shadow Ball, Ice Beam, Recover, Energy Ball, and Taunt, Jellicent is a Pokemon to be ready for. It has its fair share of problems of course, most notably Electric- and Dark-type weaknesses.
Virizion for B Rank
Similar to Breloom (you assume at first sight it would be outclassed), but it has its advantages in higher speed and access to Taunt and Quick Guard. It also has better bulk. And it looks classy. :3
Parasect- C Rank. While it is essentially a worse Amoonguss it now has Wide Guard which means it has an advantage over the mushroom. Bug-type STAB also has its uses. Other than that there is absolutely no reason to use it (except maybe Water-type immunity).
Torterra- C Rank. Maybe B but that's a bit of a stretch. With Wide Guard access capable of protecting it from Blizzard/Heat Wave, Torterra has become a fairly plausible choice with its unique Grass / Ground typing. It can OHKO threats like Rotom-W and Heatran and possesses Spore, Rage Powder, and Thunder Wave immunity. The two big problems it faces are its common Fire- and Ice-type weaknesses (Ice Beam will almost always kill it if it doesn't hold Yache) and its low speed (can be an advantage in Trick Room, though). It's defenses and Attack stat are both distinctly average as well.
Whimsicott is the fastest Prankster user in the game and has access to both Taunt and Encore. This can shut down other Prankster users in the A and B Ranks such as Thundurus and Klefki. Whimsicott also gained new typing, which added resistances to Dark, Fighting, and an immunity to Dragon. These changes enable Whimsicott to function as a strong Prankster user in the Gen VI Doubles Metagame, although I may be biased as Whimsicott is one of my favorites and I'd hate to see him stay in low C Rank. =P
I agree with this, as much as I know people hate me for it. Imo, after a year (or something like that) of being associated with Beat Up gimmicks, Whimsicott has become a Pokemon that is easily dismissed. But let's look at it seriously for a minute.
Whimsicott has received several notable buffs this generation, the most obvious of which is the remake of its typing. It now is immune to Dragon and resists Dark, Fighting, Electric, Water, Grass, and Ground (that a LOT of types :s) in exchange for a compound weakness to Poison and weaknesses to Steel-, Fire-, Flying-, and Ice. It has some up and downsides (particularly that Fire-type weakness) but overall that's a pretty useful typing and it can switch in on a lot of attacks. It is also now immune to Spore. That's not all that significant because it would just Taunt Spore users anyway, but it means you can just sit in front of Breloom and tank its attacks all day long. The final buff is that it ignores Rage Powder. This is particularly useful because it means you can stop Amoonguss + TR setter leads effortlessly. It is my opinion that, when factoring in its access to Encore, Tailwind, Light Screen, Safeguard + Swagger, and Taunt as well as its ability to paralyze Ground-types (down with Scarf Lando-T) with Stun Spore, as well as its newfound Fairy STAB Whimsicott does deserve B Rank. When played right Whimsicott is legitimately useful with some support (aka Heatran to stop dem Fire-, Steel-, and Ice-types; morever Heatran appreciates paralyzed Ground-types so it can Sub up before they attack). And the low level players can always do weird stuff with it like Beat Up, Trick Room, and Lagging Tail + Switcheroo if they want to. Meanwhile, I think we should all move past that stuff and look at what Whimsicott can do outside the realm of gimmicks.
If anything those calcs help my case. Heatran can still set up a sub (most likely) on Jellicent's most reliable STAB attack. Any invested Ice Beam can KO landoge lol. It might 2HKO Tyranitar while an even burned Tyranitar can force it out with Crunch. Latios always sets up calm mind reliably. Thundurus can still sponge a hit while threatening it with a strong, super effective attack. And If that Special Attack investment is made, it only makes its defenses weaker. The only thing you added to Jellicent's use is Will-O-Wisp, which I considered as a part of walling that was too obvious to be mentioned.
If anything those calcs help my case. Heatran can still set up a sub (most likely) on Jellicent's most reliable STAB attack. Any invested Ice Beam can KO landoge lol. It might 2HKO Tyranitar while an even burned Tyranitar can force it out with Crunch. Latios always sets up calm mind reliably. Thundurus can still sponge a hit while threatening it with a strong, super effective attack. And If that Special Attack investment is made, it only makes its defenses weaker. The only thing you added to Jellicent's use is Will-O-Wisp, which I considered as a part of walling that was too obvious to be mentioned.
Also an unburned Tyranitar cannot OHKO my Jellicent set unless it Mega Evolves. Just for the record.
Besides my point is that it can A) support its teammates, B) counter some common threats in the meta (Heatran can't do a thing back so the fact it can Sub up is usually irrelevant), and C) hit pretty hard for a supportive Pokemon. If we ranked Cresselia only on its ability to OHKO things it wouldn't be S Rank. You have to factor in its supportive capabilities as well. I'd judge Jellicent does a great job at switching between support and offense. And it tends to have a lot of opportunities to switch in thanks to 3 immunities and 6 resistances.
Let's just look at the definitions for the two ranks we're talking about.
Rankings said:
A-RANK
Reserved for Pokemon that function very well within the current Doubles metagame. The Pokemon in this tier are either able to perform multiple roles to great effect, or execute one extremely well. Support pokemon in this tier can create free turns, but not as easily as those in the S Rank.The flaws that the pokemon in this tier may have are usually mitigated by their positive traits, or with minimal team support.
B-RANK
Reserved for Pokemon that can fulfill a viable role in the Doubles metagame, but are either somewhat outclassed by Pokemon in a higher rank, or have notable flaws that prevent them from filling their role to full extent.The Pokemon in this tier are usually predictable, and either require team support to work to it's full potential, or might provide free turns for the opponent. The flaws that the pokemon in this tier have are sometimes mitigated by their positive traits, or can be patched with some team support.
There are no other Fake Out immune TR setters in A Rank. So Jellicent is most certainly not outclassed in any way. Jellicent has Electric- and Dark-type weaknesses and isn't too much a fan of Taunt, but the first two take hardly any team support to take care of with common threats handling those types and Jellicent still hits hard enough that it isn't dead weight when hit by Taunt like Amoonguss does (it has a nice offensive movepool tbh and can run Hydro Pump, Water Spout, Shadow Ball, Ice Beam, Energy Ball, and Dazzling Gleam, tho the last two are a bit situational). While one might argue its predictable, Jellicent has a lot of potential moveslots, and just because it has Trick Room does NOT mean its going to use it. It could Will O' Wisp that Hitmontop instead, or maybe Hydro Pump an opposing Heatran. It certainly has enough flexibility to avoid being predictable (it can even run Icy Wind though Trick Room tends to be better for obvious reasons). Really as far as I can see there is no reason it shouldn't be in A Rank. If someone has one I'd love to hear it.
Than Latios smacks Jelli with a specs/life orb Draco Meteor or Tyranitar avoids the 2hko with leftovers/sitrus. The mons can beat it even with super effective attacks against it, that is all I am saying. I am cool with an advancement of Jellicent to B, our disagreement is only one letter. Let's be chill here
Defensive Jellicent easily tanks a LO Draco Meteor and then proceeds to Recover in its face. Offensive Jellicent is a different matter, and in both cases you have team support, Protect or a switch into a Fairy or Steel-type to tank the hit.
The same thing applies to Ferrothorn. What can it do to support the team other than wall stuff. Leech Seed is pretty gimmicky and its not like Ferrothorn can threaten most switch-ins. The downside to Ferrothorn's typing is the abundance of Heat Wave in Doubles. While it does have its niches as a Wall, they are not enough to be put any higher than C on the rankings imo.
Ferrothorn has Thunder Wave, which many of its switch-ins do not appreciate, is a general pain the ass for Trick Room due to its low speed while being rather unhindered by the lack of Trick Room itself due to its huge bulk, and Leech Seed + Protect is generally annoying as heck.
I have seen my Ferrothorn staying alive for 20+ turns straight, even eating Heat Waves outside of Rain (and Wide Guard/Fake Out support from something like Hitmontop obviously helps at times), and... Ferrothorn being at high health with its counters removed/burned is often even a win condition by itself. Powerful attackers like Kyurem-B and the fast ghosts like MegaGengar and Mismagius excel at removing those threats, Talonflame hits Fighting-types hard with its powerful priority Brave Bird... it is incredibly easy to give Ferrothorn the support it needs and there are many ways to do so.
Ways to support Ferrothorn:
- Fake Out
- Wide Guard
- Talonflame
- Mismagius and MegaGengar
- Flash Fire, most notably Chandelure and Heatran
- Lati@s /w Psychic and/or Surf
- Politoed / Rain Dance
...and many others I don't even bother listing.
Ferrothorn can be put on many teams, and so many teams lack more than one counter to it, resulting in Ferrothorn being a huge thorn (heh) in the opponents sides since if the things that can KO Ferrothorn quickly are gone, it is going to be a huge problem, with or without Taunt.
I think it can be an offensive threat and isn’t limited to just walling things. I ran a Swords Dance set with Gyro Ball (150 BP max is strong) and Power Whip, along with Trick Room Support, and it worked decently. Ferrothorn has good bulk to set-up, and at +2 it OHKOes most of the unresisted metagame.
About Ferro being a sitting duck:
+2 252+ Atk Ferrothorn Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard Y: 264-311 (88.5 - 104.3%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Ferrothorn Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Thundurus: 144-170 (48 - 56.6%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Ferrothorn Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 352-415 (92.1 - 108.6%) -- 50% chance to OHKO.
Defensively, it has pretty decent typing and stats and Leech Seed to aid longetivity, and would be a pretty good wall if not for the prevalence of Charizard Y and Sun. Also addressing some of Aasgier’s points:
Mentioning how much support Ferrothorn needs isn’t a good way to promote its viability.
Most pokemon can win when all its counters are down. I could argue that Blissey can sweep a team once all its counters are dead, and thus it should be viable.
Thunder Wave and Leech Seed are good moves though, but not enough to pull it to A, I'd say B
Whimisott to B
Yes. Prankster is such a good ability and its speed means it can out-taunt Thundurus and Klefki. Fairy typing, and Encore which means you can force a lot of switches by locking Hitmontop into Fake Out, anything with Protect, Volcarona Quiver Dance, and heck even forcing Mursharna to reset Trick Room.
Also, I’ll nominate Mr. Mime to C. It’s quite rare, but I think it deserves a mention because of its good supporting movepool with Wide Guard, Quick Guard, Follow Me, Fake Out, Icy Wind, Dual Screens, Taunt, Helping Hand, Trick Room, and Perish Song +Soundproof (Great for PerishTrap due to access to Wide Guard and Follow Me as well) all under its belt.
Ferrothorn has its merits, but its nowhere near that good imo. Its two weaknesses happen to be some of the most common attacking types in Doubles at the moment. And Taunt as well as burns (which make its already lacking attacks completely useless) will continue to be a big problem for it. I'd honestly judge it as C Rank. B Rank is something people can probably argue for but I think we should keep it out of A Rank for the time being (probably forever tbh).
Ferrothorn to A
Mentioning how much support Ferrothorn needs isn’t a good way to promote its viability.
Most pokemon can win when all its counters are down. I could argue that Blissey can sweep a team once all its counters are dead, and thus it should be viable.
I mentioned also that while there are a lot of things on that list, Ferrothorn only needs a few of those. These are just a few of the many possibilities. I only run Heatran and Hitmontop to assist Ferrothorn as well as Jellicent and Gengar, but they are all good mons on their own and JelliThorn is incredibly hard to break properly.
Many teams only have one, maybe two counters to Ferrothorn, and even CharizardY + Mienshao is pretty easy to remove. Heatran is everywhere, easy to slam alongside Ferrothorn and completely walls CharizardY if it carries AncientPower, whereas Chandelure completely walls both outside of Knock Off on Mienshao, but if Chandelure carries Will-O-Wisp it can burn Mienshao and render it unable to break Ferrothorn even if it dies itself. Protect on Ferrothorn is also something Mienshao's HJK does not appreciate for that matter.
Also, many teams carry the required support for defensive Ferrothorn by default, that is what makes it even better.
Yes, Ferrothorn needs support, but every mon does and Ferrothorn has fewer counters than many mons - as well as that its counters are easy to remove by very common threats like Talonflame, Hitmontop, Lati@s and Heatran as well as lesser common mons like Chandelure, Politoed and Gengar.
I suggest Gourgeist-H for C-Rank. She has a great typing for a TR setter that protects her from sleep and Fake Out, big defenses and an useful ability in Frisk(seeing the items of both opponents and scouting resist berries and mega stones can be handy), not to mention that it hard walls Mega-Kanga and can even come in top against the offensive juggernaut Mega-Mawile is. However she faces stiff competition with other TR setters, expecially Trevenant with shares the same typing and has better attack and more reliable recovery. Therefore, C-Rank sounds appropriate, being her a niche mon.
Reason: their most effect sets are gimmicks. The most notorious gimmick involving them is Guard Swap Shuckle paired with Blissey and Chansey. They're pitiful offenses prevent them from going past D-rank and they are complete Taunt bait; they're support options and bulk are not enough to compensate for this. Unless they're using Guard Swap, they're often just sitting there, achieving little. Chansey and Blissey can also abuse Serene Grace Rock Slide, but this requires Tailwind or Trick Room support, and when you have something with as pitiful offenses as those two, it is not hard to stall out Tailwind or Trick Room, let alone the fact that priority still gets past them.
This thing should not be anywhere close to OU. Frail and cannot switch into any offensive attack, and Magic Mirror has limited use in doubles. Useless in TR, and vulnerable to common priority attacks. Has extensive competition from faster and stronger Psychic sweepers, including Deoxys and the already D-rank Alakazam. I'm nominating this to get the message out that this isn't a good Pokemon
And now to nominate a decent Pokemon
Heracross for B-rank
There are two sets of note, the first of which is its Mega form. Extremely high damage with decent bulk - it will OHKO almost everything late game, and will rip off large chunks of health middle-game. It has good coverage with Pin Missile, Close Combat, and Rock Blast, which hits some important foes super-effectively like Heatran, Tyranitar and Cress. It hits Cress, arguably the best Pokemon in doubles, harder than any other Pokemon. In fact it may OHKO, though sadly it usually won't thanks to Sitrus Berry, but that can be remedied with chip damage. And Heracross won't even be 2HKOed by Psychic in return. It's speed is also great for Tailwind or Icy Wind teams. It's also got Feint if you really need it. Try using it instead of Conkeldurr outside of Trick Room.
252+ Atk Mega Heracross Pin Missile (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Cresselia: 510-610 (114.8 - 137.3%)
252+ Atk Mega Heracross Pin Missile (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 390-460 (87.8 - 103.6%) -- approx. 6.3% chance to OHKO
The other set is a Choice Scarf set, which whilst overall not as good as the former set, is still useable and has surprise factor. It outspeeds most of the metagame and can OHKO opponents who would otherwise outspeed and OHKO like Charizard, gaining a Moxie boost in the process. And it still hits hard.
What's holding Heracross back is its middling Speed, the prevalence of Intimidate and Fire-types, and Talonflame. Whilst it is bulky, strong STAB attacks will OHKO it.
I suggest Gourgeist-H for C-Rank. She has a great typing for a TR setter that protects her from sleep and Fake Out, big defenses and an useful ability in Frisk(seeing the items of both opponents and scouting resist berries and mega stones can be handy), not to mention that it hard walls Mega-Kanga and can even come in top against the offensive juggernaut Mega-Mawile is. However she faces stiff competition with other TR setters, expecially Trevenant with shares the same typing and has better attack and more reliable recovery. Therefore, C-Rank sounds appropriate, being her a niche mon.
I agree with what "Five Green" said here, but also think that Gourgeist-S has some strong advantages over Trevenant. Gourgeist is an amazing Trick Room setter when used correctly, making use of its defensive typing to set up Trick Room, something Trevenant cannot do as well. Gourgeist also has 85/122/75 for its defensive stats, beating Trevenant's 85/76/82 by 39 base stat points. Gourgeist can run a number of sets, being able to set up or sweep under Trick Room rather well. What Gourgeist lacks in immediate sustain compared to Trevenant, who has unreliable but significant sustain in his Harvest-Sitrus Berry combo, can be compensated for with it's ability to survive and reliably heal back damage with Leech Seed and Leftovers. Gourgeist is situational, but has distinct advantages over other Trick Room setters and Trevenant that should earn it a spot in upper C-Rank/lower B-Rank, alongside Trevenant. They're like siblings!
Despite the fact that Fighting-types in general took a thorn in the side with the arrival of Fairy-types, Conkeldurr isn't much worse this gen; in fact I believe it is better now due to three reasons.
1) Assault Vest. Do you even know how good this thing is with Assault Vest? I love using this set, and for good reason. It doesn't need much investment to tank two Sun-boosted Heat Waves from Timid MegaYZard: 252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 72 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr in Sun: 172-204 (41.5 - 49.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Furthermore, Drain Punch works amazingly in tandem with AV, since it heals off the passive damage dealt to it.
2) Trick Room buff. I'm not sure exactly how but Trick Room (especially semi-tr) is freaking amazing this gen. Spore nerf and Taunt less popular, Trick Room is much easier to set now. And guess who loves when Trick Room is set: CONK
Yeah there is plenty more discussion available around this mon which i'll let you guys up to :]
To respond a bit to others, I definitely agree with everything Darkmalice - all the D rank mons belong no where else, and Heracross has the Cress-killing thing going for it :p
I don't really think Gourgeist should be in B rank, since Trevenant overshades it a lot with its sitrus + harvest. C rank at best imo
Also adding this one that I missed early that Pocket pointed out:
Lucario rising to B:
Audio vm'ed me cause he doesn't want to loose his 1k but
Rotom-C rising to B:
Yea this is a lot but this is a very important doubles resource. I want EVERYONE to post their opinions on each mon in order to have the most accurate rankings. Idc if your reasoning is the exact same as everyone else's.
I will give a few days for these noms so everyone can add their input.
Ferrothorn Placement: B rank. Sometimes it wins games by itself, sometimes it doesn't do anything.
Gourgeist B or C Rank: C Rank, competes with Tree as Arctic said.
Conkeldurr rising to A: Competes with other fighting types sort of. Very borderline imo. I think it should be in the same rank as Excadrill though(decent bulk, powerful attacker under the right conditions). I guess put it in A rank, but Excadrill dropping is possible too imo.
Herracross being added to B: Of course. Heracross would be high A-rank if it didn't have to compete with Kangaskhan which might possibly get suspected. It has the niche of OHKOing Cresselia and being 4hko'd by Landorus-T iirc. Very bulky and can hit really dang hard.
Whimsicott rising to B: Sure. Stick it in the same rank as Klefki.
Parasect being added to C: It requires too much support to barely be good in a meta where Sun>Rain and people are starting to use Fire Blast more often. D rank.
Mr. Mime being added to C: Yes. It definitely has niches suitable for C rank. You can find ways to make it not totally suck.
Jellicent rising (B or A?): B rank. Heatran can set up on Scald variants, Water Spout is unreliable without support(good for B rank) and Hydro Pump sucks on defensive variants and lol offensive Jelli w/o Water Spout.
Virizion being added to B: Sure. Quick Guard while 4x weak to Brave Bird is cool. Probably lower end of B though, if not C.
Torterra being added to C: Too much competition imo, but my opinion is all theorymon. I've never seen Torterra used by a good player(though there's probably a reason for that), but I'm feeling D rank.
Lucario rising to B:
Yes. Same reasons as Heracross, outclassed by Kanga, but has niches that I mentioned earlier: Bullet Punch, Speed and Steel typing.
Rotom-C rising to B:Yes. It stands out among grass types and electric types as pretty good since usually neither of those types have a good second STAB. Plus it has a very niche of pairing much better with Charizard Y than Rotom W for teams that prefer the benefits of Rotom over Venusaur/Amoonguss. Might be pushing barely A rank possibly.
Ferrothorn Placement: C rank. Swords Dance Ferrothorn is fairly gimmicky, and requires massive support. It is incredibly reliant on Gyro Ball, Power Whip's 15% miss chance is incredibly depressing for a set-up sweeper, it's cripplingly weak to Heatran and Charizard (which are very common, incredibly powerful threats), easily neutered by Burn (which is far from uncommon), has access to no real good spread option, and absolutely requires a Swords Danceto do anything of note. Having to invest 252 EVs into attack and needing to use an Adamant nature undermines its bulk as well. Finally, it requires both a turn to set up AND Trick Room on the field to do anything of note. It simply requires too much support, and is a liability in a era where Intimidate, Charizard and Heatran are absolutely everywhere.
Edit: Since I forgot to address Wall-Ferrothorn - it really does not bring enough to the table to justify being a liability against Charizard, Heatran, and Talonflame. Still useful on the right team, but when many teams can OHKO it without even blinking, it kind of sucks as a wall.
Gourgeist B or C Rank: C rank. While being immune to fake out is pretty nice, and while Gourgeist can reliably enough set up Trick Room, it has a enormous problem of being dead weight whilst in Trick Room. An absolutely barren support move pool that lacks any sort of speed control or even Helping Hand, a base 100 attack stat, relying on Leftovers and Leech Seed for recovery, and a very atrocious physical move pool that doesn't even feature Shadow Claw or anything better then Seed Bomb all stack up for a very underwhelming mon once Trick Room is up.
Conkeldurr rising to A: Honestly I'm 50/50 about this rise. On one hand, the Assualt Vest does make Conkeldurr one bulky mofo, with Drain Punch helping to keep it healthy. On the other hand, Knock Off support is absolutely everywhere now, its bulk is somewhat undermined by a lack of useful resistances, and Trick Room isn't nearly as surefire a thing as it used to be with Mega Gengar running around. I'd lean towards B tier, since while Conkeldurr definitely is a very solid mon, it's not something you can just slap onto any team, much less any TR team.
Herracross being added to B: This could go either way, but I'm leaning towards B rank. Being Fire-weak in this meta is an enormous liability, but at the same time, Mega-Heracross's power is not at all something to be taken lightly, and it really has fantastic bulk. If either Heatran or Charizard ever leave the meta, this thing could even be a A rank monster, but for now, being Fire-weak dooms it to B.
Whimsicott rising to B: No. Whimsiscott, even in spite of its enormous typing buff, still has incredibly awful bulk. Prankster alone cannot carry a mon, and while it serves as enough of a saving grace for Whimsiscott to deserve C-rank, it's still going to get OHKO'd by just about anything that hits for at least neutral. Plus, it's a grass type in the Charizard and Heatran meta, making it instantly a liability. Zero offensive presence just seals the deal. It still has useful support options, but Grass typing and its horrid bulk are just such a letdown that it's not B tier worthy.
Parasect being added to C: In this Heatran-and-Charizard infested metagame, you need something special to succeed as a fire-weak mon. Parasect has pretty much nothing going for it outside of access to Spore. Lackluster bulk, awful speed, horrid typing, and absolutely zero offensive presence would make this reject bad even if Heatran and Charizard weren't so common. To add insult to injury, it actually is worse in sun, dying to even a un-stabbed ember. D rank at best, the only thing this deadweight has going for it is Spore, and that's not nearly enough.
Mr. Mime being added to C: I have literally never seen a Mr. Mime do anything other then be an obnoxious annoyance. It dies to so much as a stiff sneeze from a physical attacker, and its 120 Special Defense is undermined by 40 HP. Its typing leaves it with annoying weaknesses and only two good resists, and its lack of power leaves it as a complete offensive non-presence. It has a enormous support movepool while being immune to Taunt, but let's face it. This thing is going to just get out-right KO'd. D-rank mon.
Jellicent rising (B or A?): B rank sounds pretty good for Jellicent. Good, but not mind-boggling bulk. Decent offensive presence, but nothing to note. Taunt-weak, but immune to fake out. Will-o-Wisp access, which is still unfortunately very much Will-o-miss (15% miss chance is still gross). A good typing that still leaves it open to some dangerous threats. It really looks like the poster child for B rank to me.
Virizion being added to B: Ho boy. This thing has a lot of nasty weaknesses, with a few useful resistances as well. It has pretty great base bulk, but absolutely lacking offensive options. It has access to Quick Guard, but that's really all it has access to outside of the universal Helping Hand. Doesn't help that its ability might as well be non-existent since there's no real reason to run a physical set over a special set. C-Rank imo, it has its uses as a Quick Guard bot, but it has serious issues and can't do much more then that, which makes it a highly niche pick.
Torterra being added to C: Sure. Wide Guard support is very useful, and conveniently patches up its allergy to Blizzard and Heat Wave. It also has some petty solid bulk. Unfortunately, its typing is incredibly awful, especially in a meta where Charizard, Heatran, and even Talonflame are running around, and its most powerful attacks have obnoxious drawbacks. C-rank seems like a good home.
Lucario rising to B: Frail, with a weird typing that leaves it with bad weaknesses and a few neat resistances...but holy hell can it hurt. 112 base speed post-mega and enormously powerful prioirty are very cool, and help to deal with its frailness. While Heatran, Charizard and Talonflame's popularity make it difficult to use, it just has so much power (with useful speed and a great offensive typing) that I can definitely support it for B rank.
Rotom-C rising to B: Sure. It's just a worse Rotom-W, but not so much worse that it deserves to be below B rank. Plus, Grass typing can occasionally be more useful then Water, even though the nasty Flying and Fire weaknesses leave it stuck in B.
Ferrothorn Placement: Drop to C. It wants to be a supporter but can't control speed in any way, leaving it with health draining via Leech Seed which isn't all that in demand in Doubles. SD is probably its best set, which I feel makes it solid C.
Gourgeist B or C Rank: It's hard to justify it over Trev, cause Harvest is too good. It's almost always outclassed, unless you really want Frisk. C.
Conkeldurr rising to A: I'm not sure I feel too good about a pokemon needing field support being A. The only other up there that absolutely needs field support is Mawile, and I don't think Conk compares. I'd say stay B.
Herracross being added to B: I've only used it a few times, but I refuse to believe that something with 185 attack, not one but three 125 BP attacks, and no overly debilitating qualities can be bad. It's bulk ain't bad, all it needs is some speed control like Tailwind. B. If the metagame weren't so unfriendly towards it, I'd vote A for it.
Whimsicott rising to B: A good case was made, and I was on board at first (despite my hatred of it (RU player)), but then I took another look at its defense stats. C.
Parasect being added to C: Compares to the stuff currently in C, so sure.
Mr. Mime being added to C: No. I've played against it, it did nothing. 40/65 defense gets KOed by pretty much every physical threat in the meta. Probably even through intimidate. It gets one turn to do something before dying. The support options are not worth it, keep on moving. D-Rank, if you want to rank it at all.
Jellicent rising (B or A?): Bulky Water with TR, immunity to Fake Out, and can Burn. Even though I don't think it outright checks a good portion of the meta, burns are threatening and it still does its job and does so consistently. Just looking at the other mons in C, I feel B is a better fit for it.
Virizion being added to B: His stats are good, he has some nice support options, and he has several good resistances. He can go toe to toe with T-Tar (I think), which is something good in his favor. However, he has nothing really exceptional or unique and he doesn't fare well in the meta. I think C is a better fit.
Torterra being added to C: Exactly as I said for Parasect, I think it makes sense with the other 'mons in C.
Lucario rising to B: Pretty much all it brings to the party is power, speed, and style. But that's really all it needs. That power threatens so much (sadly, not cress though), so I think it should B.
Rotom-C rising to B: I'm... sorta at a loss here. Maybe I'm missing something really obvious, but what exactly does he offer? He doesn't really beat anything Rotom W doesn't (he just stalemates fellow grass types), loses to a lot more, and he doesn't really offer anything that another grass type already does. The electric STAB can be useful I guess, but that doesn't seem B worthy. Like its name, C.
My thoughts in the above so the thread is easier to navigate.
Edit: Had no idea Ferro learned T-Wave. B-Rank is fine.
Really I think Ferrothorn is fine where it is. Rising is a horrible idea, as common Fire-types and Fighting-types in the meta hardwall it. Since Ferrothorn is primarily a support Pokemon, being weak to incredibly common threats means it is going to be giving the opposition free turns quite often, a problem that support Pokemon in A Rank must never have. I can agree with it going down if other people think it should, for reasons stated by nyttyn.
C Rank imo. Really the only reason for this is that Trevenant and its ever-so-useful Harvest ability tends to outclass the Jack-O-Plantern. The only two notable reasons to use it over Trevenant are really the higher defense (nice for tanking Knock Off, Crunch, etc) and access to the gimmicky Trick-Or-Treat. Some less notable advantages are Explosion (good for giving a sweeper a safe switch in) and Shadow Sneak. Apart from that you have no reason to use it over Trevenant. None.
Yes. Hands down yes. Contrary to popular belief, Conkeldurr can actually fit on almost any type of team in need of a bulky and hard hitting Fighting-type. While it's well known for being a fearsome Trick Room sweeper with LO + Iron Fist, it can actually run a semi-offensive set with heavy defensive investment and Sitrus Berry for recovery alongside Drain Punch. It also has Knock Off should you need a method for hammering Ghost-types. Due to the prevalence of Will-O-Wisp, Guts sets are also becoming a thing, taking advantage of players who mindlessly Will-O-Wisp Conkeldurr. It also has Stone Edge, Rock Slide, Poison Jab, and Wide Guard, all of which are uncommon yet effective options. It's bulky, hits hard, and is wonderful at what it does, all while having several options to work with, the perfect description for an A Rank Pokemon.
Heck it'd be A Rank if it weren't for all the Fire- and Ghost-types running around. With a extremely effective Mega Evolution and the ability to effectively work without it via Choice Scarf it is a powerful attacker that is worthy of consideration on most teams. B Rank is a perfect fit for it. It can also make use of the newly buffed Knock Off, which is a good option on Scarf variants.
People argue that Prankster cannot single-handedly make a Pokemon useful, but Whimsicott an example of that (along with Sableye; that devil is so evil sometimes). Priority is a big part of this metagame, and having priority on options like Encore, Taunt, Tailwind, Stun Spore, and so forth makes Whimsicott an option worthy of consideration. 60 / 85 / 75 defenses are below average but they're perfectly workable with (I mean srsly, Sableye gets by with 50 / 75 / 65 defenses). Add in the fact that it has some useful niches, particularly ignoring Rage Powder and paralyzing Ground-types, and you have something that's perfectly fine in B Rank on your hands (we might as well call B Rank "land of somewhat effective Pranksters" given that Klefki, Sableye, and possibly Whimsicott are in it).
Stat-wise, it is horrible. Typing-wise it has some nice resistances. Utility-wise it is way too freaking diverse. I mean is there any support move this thing doesn't learn? You're never quite sure what moveset it'll be running, but at the same time its really frail and Taunt will typically shut it down completely. C Rank seems about right.
A Rank. I have touched on why quite a bit. It's typing + ability gives it 3 immunities and 6 resistances, many of which are common attacking types (i.e. Fire, Ice, Fighting, Normal (mostly Fake Out)). It has good offensive presence for a primarily supportive Pokemon, which is good because it means you aren't going to give the opposition very many free turns. Along with Trick Room, Taunt, and Will O' Wisp as support options and Recover should you want to last even longer, Jellicent is one of, if not the, the best Trick Room setters out there.
Yes, Virizion has a lot of weaknesses, but that could be said for any Grass-type. And Water-, Dark-, Rock-, Ground-, and Electric-type resistances are all fairly useful in the metagame (if not more than that). It's main role is to handle threats like Rotom-W, Kangashkan and Tyranitar, which it can do with a LO:
252 Atk Life Orb Virizion Close Combat vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Kangaskhan: 398-471 (113 - 133.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Virizion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Kangaskhan: 398-471 (96.1 - 113.7%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Virizion Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 283-335 (93 - 110.1%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Virizion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Chople Berry Tyranitar: 367-432 (90.8 - 106.9%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Virizion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Tyranitar: 562-660 (139.1 - 163.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
It also is useful because of its very high 108 base speed, meaning it can potentially outpseed and OHKO Charizard-Y with Stone Edge if you feel the need to accomplish that. Along with Quick Guard (which is now a very useful move that a lot of people underrate; thanks to its speed Virizion can block most Fake Outs with it), Light Screen, and Taunt access, as well as 91 / 72 / 129 defenses, Virizion fits into B Rank very nicely. While its not as effective imo (Focus Blast is too shaky and Giga Drain is just hands down weak; tho Energy Ball might hit a bit harder), a special set could also be used.
As a final note, you may argue Virizion doesn't have much power offensively, but its main role is not one of a sweeper (and never should be), but more of a speedy supporter, as well as something that chips away at specific threats so its teammates can safely finish them off.
I'm fairly borderline. It is pretty frail and things like LO Conkeldurr Mach Punch, Breloom Mach Punch, and LO Talonflame Flare Blitz can take it down in one shot, which is all the worse when you note it can't hold a Focus Sash. Still, with some (fairly heavy) defensive investment you can potentially live the first two above attacks and it hits like a nuke. I can see B Rank working.
No. While Rotom-C has its (small) niches, such as the ability to hit Rotom-W and Spore/Rage Powder immunity, it also suffers from weaknesses to Ice and Fire, two attack types that will be on almost every team you face. This in tandem with its only average speed and average 50 / 107 / 107 defenses does not earn it a spot in B Rank. This is furthered backed by the fact that other Grass-types, such as Breloom, Amoonguss, and Shaymin-S, can deal with Rotom-W while not forfeiting your ability to run the ever-so-useful Rotom-W and Rotom-H. Factoring in Rotom-C's complete lack of good coverage options outside of Hidden Power and the fact that its common weaknesses make the use of support options like Will-O-Wisp relatively ineffective, I can easily say Rotom-C should stay in C Rank.
Good idea Sound, everyone should probably do this, it'd make things easier.
Being able to go offensive or defensive is cool, and it does get stuff like Leech Seed and Thunder Wave. Iron Barbs is fun for trolling stuff like fake out mega-kanga as well. However, the surprise factor is about as far as Ferrothorn gets in both positions. The defensive set is exposed to the abundance of Fire- and Fighting-type attackers in the tier. Stuff like Whimsicott is at least guaranteed to get an attack in this meta with Prankster. Ferrothorns offensive STABs have terrible neutral coverage, being walled by Steel- and Fire-types and most bulky Pokemon in general. Relying on Bulldoze for coverage is a testament to this Pokemon's flaws. B rank is a generous statement and I only agree with this because it does cockblock some specific threats.
Gourgeist
Poor man's Trevenant. I like Frisk, but I like harvest better. If you want exploding Grass / Ghost-type Pokemon, don't let C rank discourage you from using it :)
Conkeldurr
I haven't used the Assault Vest set, but I am really excited to. With its bulk, it can take a good, strong, super effective attack and still retaliate. It can also absorb Burns if you want. The only problem I have with it is its weak STAB. Drain Punch is great for recovery but it misses out on many KOs. Hammer Arm is cool in Trick Room tho. A rank fits for this guy.
Heracross
It is a bug-type that threatens Heatran and a fighting-type that beats Cresselia. It's dual STABs can break many cores and Bullet Seed is cool coverage. Yea it is slow-ish and weak to many common attackers, so B rank works.
Whimsicott
I like Whimsicott. Prankster Encore, Thunder Wave, and Tailwind allow it to extremely disrupt strategies such as Substitute, Trick Room, and Protect that are everywhere in Doubles. Whimsicott differentiates itself from Liepard with its better defensive typing and Bulk. It is incredibly easy for newer users to learn the meta with and B rank is a good spot for it.
Parasect
I would never run this ever. Wide Guard + Spore is its only niche and it's not like they are hard to find in other Doubles threats that fit in the meta better. D rank if anything.
Mr. Mime
It's incredibly diverse, but it is outclassed by everything. In addition, its bulk is poo. While D rank is for outclassed Pokemon, I guess being outclassed in so many viable ways is better than being outclassed in only one viable way. C rank I guess.
Jellicent
I am fine with this rising to B rank but A rank is too much. It needs a lot of Special Attack EVs to nab the 2HKOs it needs, sacrificing its bulk and ability to set Trick Room reliably. If it could run Trick Room, Will-O-Wisp, Recover, Hydro Pump, and Ice Beam, I would be obsessed with this Pokemon. Sadly, because it cannot, many, Pokemon can wall it or wear it down before it will do satisfactory work for the team. A (albeit high) B Rank suits this Pokemon well. I still <3 you Nollan don't kill me.
Virizion
It resists a lot of cool types, can go physical or special with its cool dual STABs, and it has a cool Speed stats. Helping Hand and Quick Guard are cool too. It is still weak to a lot of coverage and pretty frail on the physical side so B is cool for this cool mon.
Torterra
Sure C works. It has a niche typing, its a Grass-type that Heatran can't switch into, and Wide Guard is fun.
Rotom-C
There are very few threats that Rotom-C checks that Rotom-W or Rotom-H cannot. Leaf Storm can be more of a liability than a benefit, and I would suggest bringing Rotom-H down itself if it didn't rek sun teams. C rank is fine for a good mon with too much better competition.
So yea rushed thoughts during the commercial of my movie ftw.
