DP Jirachi .

[umbarsc]

Updating the Choice Specs set, which I feel does not give the best coverage. I'm also adding a Rest-Talk set, which I have used in my recent stall team to great success.

http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/jirachi

[SET]
name: Choice Specs
move 1: Psychic
move 2: Thunderbolt
move 3: Grass Knot / Hidden Power Ground
move 4: U-turn / Icy Wind
item: Choice Specs
nature: Timid
evs: 80 HP / 252 SpA / 176 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>This Jirachi is meant to hit hard and fast, though with special attacks, unlike the previous set. Unlike the Calm Mind Sweeper, this requires no set-up, but is also dealt with with much greater ease against defensive teams, as it can't set up a sweep. However, it is also more unexpected.</p>

<p>Psychic is the main STAB attack, hitting many common OU threats such as Infernape, Gengar, Roserade, and Heracross for super-effective damage. Grass Knot hits many common switch-ins hard, such as Tyranitar, Hippowdon, and Swampert, OHKOing the latter and 2HKOing the former two. Thunderbolt hits Skarmory and Forretress reasonably hard, as well as Gyarados, making this an effective Gyarados counter (assuming it lacks Earthquake). The last slot is for a utility move. U-turn is the preffered option, as it scouts the opponent's team, allowing it to run from unfavorable match-ups (such as Bronzong and Blissey), as well as dealing massive damage to Celebi. Icy Wind is to hurt Garchomp on the switch, breaking its Yache Berry to make it easier to counter, or 2HKOing it (with the Speed drop in effect) if it lacks a Yache Berry. It also helps take care of Salamence and Gliscor.</p>

[SET]
name: Rest-Talk
move 1: Rest
move 2: Sleep Talk
move 3: Psychic
move 4: Grass Knot / Thunderbolt
item: Leftovers
nature: Calm
evs: 252 HP / 116 Def / 140 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>Though Jirachi has access to a perfectly suitable healing move in Wish, Jirachi may choose to forgoe that in favor of the more unreliable Rest-Talk, because Jirachi makes a great switch-in to many common sleep-users such as Roserade, Gengar, and Yanmega due to high defenses and STAB Psychic. The last slot is for type coverage, with Grass Knot hitting Tyranitar, Swampert, and Hippowdon, and Thunderbolt hitting Gyarados and Skarmory.</p>


I didn't really expand much on the Rest-Talker set, but I didn't think there was much to say, really.

 

[SoT]

Updating the Choice Specs set, which I feel does not give the best coverage. I'm also adding a Rest-Talk set, which I have used in my recent stall team to great success.



<p>This Jirachi is meant to hit hard and fast, though with special attacks, unlike the previous set. Unlike the Calm Mind Sweeper, this requires no set-up, at the cost of being dealt with, with much greater ease. However, it is also more unexpected.</p>

<p>Psychic is the main STAB attack, hitting many common OU threats such as Infernape, Gengar, Roserade, and Heracross for super-effective damage. Grass Knot hits many common switch-ins hard, such as Tyranitar, Hippowdon, and Swampert, OHKOing the latter and 2HKOing the former two. Thunderbolt hits Skarmory and Forretress reasonably hard, as well as Gyarados, making this an effective Gyarados counter (assuming it lacks Earthquake). The last slot is for a utility move. U-turn is the preferred option, as it is able to scout the opponent's team, and allowing it to run from unfavorable match-ups (such as Bronzong and Blissey), as well as dealing a decent amount of damage to Celebi. Icy Wind is for Garchomp on the switch, breaking its Yache Berry thus make it easier to counter, or 2HKOing it (with the Speed drop in effect) if it lacks a Yache Berry. It also helps cover other Dragons and Ground types.</p>

I don't really like the Icy Wind part, it makes it seem like you're to focused on countering Garchomp, and that the only reason Icy Wind is an option is just for him. The other corrections are just what I thought sounded better and seemed to make the sentences flow better.

Edit: I do agree with Tennis. HP Ice seems like a more reasonable option. But the chance of a speed drop may be useful in most situations. It really comes down to personal preference, but I would recommend putting HP Ice as an option.

<p>Though Jirachi has access to a perfectly suitable healing move in Wish, Jirachi may choose to forgo that in favor of the more unreliable Rest-Talk, because Jirachi makes a great switch-in to many common sleep-users such as Roserade, Gengar, and Yanmega due to high defenses and STAB Psychic. The last slot is for type coverage, with Grass Knot hitting Tyranitar, Swampert, and Hippowdon hard, while being left open for other threats such as Heatran, Magnezone, Gallade, Azelf, CM Celebi. While on the other hand Thunderbolt hits Gyarados and Skarmory, but you lose out on hitting most grounds for good damage, and Tyranitar can come in easily. </p>

To be perfectly honest, this set seems a little to iffy for me. There are plenty of other RestTalkers out in D/P and most if not all outclass Jirachi.

Well, you really don't have much here, so I can't really edit it all that much.

 

[tennisace]

On the specs set, is the speed drop worth not using Hp Ice? It doesn't seem like it to me.

 

[umbarsc]

This kind of got lost in Aldaron's onslaught of Peer Edits a week ago. Any more comments?

Son of Thunder: I don't see how it is outclassed by other Rest-Talkers. Explain that.

tennisace0227: Yes, it is.

 

[gengod]

I don't see a reason to include Icy Wind or Hp Ice on the Choice Specs set as Salamence and Garchomp the only 2 reasons you would need an Ice attack are already easily 2HKOed by Specs Psychic. For what its worth the standard Salamence is also 2HKOed by Jirachi's Specs Thunderbolt.

One of the more common Jirachi switch-ins is Heatran so you could probaly slash U-Turn with Water Pulse or Hidden Power Ground instead. Hidden Power Ground will OHKO standard Heatran and 2HKO the most defensive of spreads. Water Pulse will 2HKO the standard Heatran while 3HKOing a more defensive spread, however Water Pulse does offer superior type coverage in comparison to Hidden Power Ground and has that nice 60% Confusion chance with Serene Grace.

As for the Rest Talking set is there any specific reason why you have 116 Def Evs? If so you should probaly state why.

 

[Super]

Well, from the numbers I played around with, after an Icy Wind Jirachi is faster than a non-Choice Scarfed Garchomp. So although it's a 2HKO it's more like a OHKO. If +1 Speed on you is equal to -1 Speed on the opponent, it's equivalent to giving Jirachi a Choice Scarf. With 176 Speed EVs and Timid, it hits 308. Multiplying by 1.5 gives 462, meaning everything lower than 462 will be slower after Icy Wind.

Timid Jolteon hits 394, which is really only a testament to the reduction. Choice Scarf Adamant Garchomp hits 454, and a neutral natured Deoxys-S hits around 459. +Speed natures look like they'll still have more speed though.

 

[cim]

HP Fighting on the Rest/Talker, though it does make Spiritomb piss all over you, provides good coverage on Tyranitar.

 

[umbarsc]

I don't see a reason to include Icy Wind or Hp Ice on the Choice Specs set as Salamence and Garchomp the only 2 reasons you would need an Ice attack are already easily 2HKOed by Specs Psychic. For what its worth the standard Salamence is also 2HKOed by Jirachi's Specs Thunderbolt.

One of the more common Jirachi switch-ins is Heatran so you could probaly slash U-Turn with Water Pulse or Hidden Power Ground instead. Hidden Power Ground will OHKO standard Heatran and 2HKO the most defensive of spreads. Water Pulse will 2HKO the standard Heatran while 3HKOing a more defensive spread, however Water Pulse does offer superior type coverage in comparison to Hidden Power Ground and has that nice 60% Confusion chance with Serene Grace.

As for the Rest Talking set is there any specific reason why you have 116 Def Evs? If so you should probaly state why.

HP Ground is already listed as an option over Thunderbolt. I like Icy Wind for the speed drop and because it breaks Garchomp's Yache Berry, which allows it to be more effectively countered, but if you feel it isn't useful enough it can be removed. Should I list Water Pulse next to Icy Wind?

Also, the 116 Def EVs was just to balance the defenses. Kind of arbitrary, really, but I maxed HP and ran 270 speed, and I decided to put the excess EVs in defense as Jirachi could take appropriate special hits with a Calm nature.

HP Fighting on the Rest/Talker, though it does make Spiritomb piss all over you, provides good coverage on Tyranitar.

Grass Knot hits Tyranitar nearly as hard (HP fighting hits it about 15% harder), and also gets coverage on Hippowdon/Swampert. However, HP Fight (sort of) gets coverage on steels, so it's a worthy consideration.

 

[gengod]

What i'm saying is that Thunderbolt shouldn't be slashed with anything at all and should be a staple on the set. As I previously mentioned Garchomp and Salamence are the only reason you would need Ice attacks, Icy Wind may mean you beat a Yache Chomp switching in but thats really about its only purpose. In my opinion the last slot should be U-Turn / Water Pulse / Hidden Power Ground in that order.

 

[umbarsc]

What is Thunderbolt good for other than Skarmory? Maybe Gyarados, but most are Life Orb with Earthquake, which OHKOs. I don't think it should be obligatory at all. I feel that U-turn is much more important to run from bad match-ups, like Blissey and Bronzong.

 

[cim]

I do think Garchomp is enough of a threat that Icy Wind should be advised, personally, as otherwise Jolly Chomp counters Specs Jirachi. Water Pulse seems kinda pointless as the only real target for it is Heatran who dies to HP Ground.

 

[gengod]

I do think Garchomp is enough of a threat that Icy Wind should be advised, personally, as otherwise Jolly Chomp counters Specs Jirachi. Water Pulse seems kinda pointless as the only real target for it is Heatran who dies to HP Ground.

Specs Psychic will 2HKO Garchomp, which means Garchomp is not a counter and will only be switching into Jirachi once. Water Pulse as I previously mentioned has that 60% Confusion chance which is always nice if your mispredict. HP Ground does score the OHKO on Heatran so it would only be a matter of preference.

And umbarsc, Thunderbolt hits a lot more than just Skarmory. it's your best option against most opposing Steels or Psychics, such as Metagross Cresselia, Deoxys or Bronzong as well as having a decent 20% chance at Paralysis. Also, quite ironically in your description of the moveset you mention Jirachi being a good counter to Gyarados but then actually say you think Thunderbolt could be left out in favour of a move like U-Turn as most Gyarados' are most Life Orbed with Earthquake. You might want to watch your words a bit more carefully next time.

 

[cim]

That's 40% confdusion chance on Water Pulse, Significantly less.

 

[jrrrrrrr]

I'll address these sets one at a time:

Specs: Psychic and U-turn/Icy Wind are pretty much staples and I agree with both of their placements.

However, even though I agree that Grass Knot should be mentioned on the set, I think you have put it in the wrong place. Thunderbolt/Thunder is pretty much mandatory on this set since it really does prevent things like Metagross/Cresselia/etc from walling all over you. It clearly isn't for Gyarados, that is just an added bonus. I think GK belongs as an option over HP Fighting. HP Fighting is pretty useless and wont do much to Blissey anyways, and you would be much better off with the coverage given since GK still nails Tyranitar and Thunderbolt still nails Heatran. My specs set would look like:

-Psychic
-Thunderbolt/Thunder
-U-turn/Icy Wind
-Grass Knot/HP Ground

You also might want to mention how this set is really good for lots of Speed EVs as an other option to beat/tie Gyarados, Salamence, Heracross, Gliscor, Breloom/Machamp, Heatran etc

Rest-Talk:

This set works out on paper but it is really outclassed in OU. To be honest, even resttalk Metagross is more viable than this set. It just really lacks the ability to do anything, since Jirachi already has a really good healing move in Wish and using moveslots to STalk is wasting Jirachi's potential. That Jirachi really has no advantages over the others, since tbqh I wouldn't want my Jirachi absorbing sleep anyways. If you are really adamant about the set, at least add Calm Mind as an option so you can do something besides sit there and get hit.

 

[umbarsc]

Metagross is hit harder by HP Ground, and instead of doing zero damage to things like Bronzong/Cresselia with Thunderbolt, why not just U-turn to a counter?

Also, Rest-Talk Jirachi works out in real life too. I used it on my stall team and it worked for me. The problem with a Crocune-esque set-up is Jirachi's horrible STAB. I guess Rest/Talk/CM/Flash Cannon could maybe work, but so many things resist that it's not even funny. I suppose with Magnezone/Dugtrio support it could work, but it shouldn't have to require so much support.

Should the Rest-Talker just be scrapped altogether? I agree that it is kind of outclassed, but that doesn't necessarily mean it should be eliminated altogether.

Evil Hamster said he had success with a Rest/Talk/CM/Flash Cannon Bronzong before, so it could maybe work with Jirachi.

 

[jrrrrrrr]

Yeah, I really don't think that the RestTalk set is analysis-worthy. Obviously it can work, Jirachi is a great pokemon. But just because a set works doesn't mean its the best option, or even a good one. Jirachi just has so many better things to be doing that I don't think it'll be worth it.

But you aren't doing "zero damage" to Bronzong and Cresselia, you are doing a shitload of unresisted damage. 100 base SpAtk is highly underrated. Metagross is hit harder by HP Ground, but HP Ground isn't always the best option. Sometimes you don't always have a counter handy and you really need that extra damage through neutrality. Its a type-coverage issue. Psychic/Grass isn't nearly as effective as Psychic/Electric. Thunderbolt is a great move that hits essentially everything that would actually come into Jirachi. The only issue is Dugtrio, but those are rare anyways. Are you saying that youre going to U-turn every time you send out this specs jirachi just because youre scared something that resists it might come out? Then youre better off using a different set. Thunderbolt is just too useful of a move to pass up as easily as you are dismissing it. I am fairly confident that my set is solid and I still agree with you about your main point of GK being added to the specs set. Things that actually come in to beat Jirachi (Metagross, Heatran, Bronzong, Skarmory, Zapdos, Salamence) aren't going to be taking any damage from GK, but they will be taking huge chunks from Thunderbolt, which is why I feel that Tbolt is a much more sturdy option than GK, especially as an optionless move on this set.

 

[Bam]

<p>This Jirachi is meant to hit hard and fast, though with special attacks, unlike the previous set. What differentiates this from the Calm Mind sweeper is that it requires no set-up, but unfortunately it is much easier to wall, as it can't Substitute set up a sweep. However, it is also more unexpected.</p>

Fixed up the wording on that a bit. The double "unlike" and "with" was kind of meh..

 

[jujuomi]

nature: Calm
evs: 252 HP / 116 Def / 140 Spe

Is calm needed? Can it be replaced with Bold and 116 sp.df evs? Because if calm isn't a necessesity, bold should be added since not everyone has access to calm. Obviously shoddy members don't care but some of us with better bold than calm would appreciate knowing thier bolds are options too.

 

[Serv]

Even though Jirachi has access to a perfectly suitable healing move in Wish

Add "even"

Jirachi may choose to forgo that in favor of the less reliable Rest-Talk combo

Not sure about adding "combo" but it sounded lacking without it (still sounds a bit weird so help here will be very much appreciated).

because Jirachi makes a great switch-in to many common sleep-users such as Roserade, Gengar, and Yanmega due to its high defenses along with a great defensive typing, and can apose a threat to said sleep-users with it's STAB Psychic attacks.

Again not sure but it sounds alright....

The last slot is for type coverage, Grass Knot hits Tyranitar, Swampert, and Hippowdon for good damage, while Thunderbolt gets rid of Gyarados and Skarmory.

Sounds better imo.

Thanks have a nice day ^^.

 

[Blue Kirby]

This post is for Aldaron's and Jrrrrrrr's purposes ...

Delete; this is already on the site.