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DP Tier Discussion - BL and UU (mark 2)
- Thread starter Phuquoph
- Start date
I was talking to Ancien Regime last night and he said he thought it was rain that was too powerful for UU - but I think the easier answer to accept would probably be that some Swift Swimmers are too strong. Kabutops is probably the main one - it pretty much surpasses Tyranitar power with one Swords Dance if I recall correctly.
Rotom can't take Brave Bird. The rest, sure, though nobody really uses Magcargo, so it has less weight than a common Pokemon such as Steelix imo.
For Clefable, I think this one could be on Teifu's list of Pokemon that can go either way. I don't think anything unboosted can take it out except for things like Close Combat. Then again, Hitmonlee does make a very nice switch into it.
Rotom can't take Brave Bird. The rest, sure, though nobody really uses Magcargo, so it has less weight than a common Pokemon such as Steelix imo.
For Clefable, I think this one could be on Teifu's list of Pokemon that can go either way. I don't think anything unboosted can take it out except for things like Close Combat. Then again, Hitmonlee does make a very nice switch into it.
Hitmonlee can't switch into Toxic Orb Facade unfortunately, or if Clefable runs Psychic (it doesn't but it could.) Also Wish/Protect stops Banded or Scarfed versions cold, which is the majority of Hitmonlees.
Quagsire actually makes a pretty good counter to most RD teams now that i think about it. It stops Qwilfish,Toxicroak, and Kabutops and Gorebyss/Omastar lacking HP Grass.
Also note that some really defensive Pokemon can take Kabutops Stone Edge, such as Leafeon running max hp/def and Leafeon obviously OHKOs back. CB Adamant Stone Edge does 44-52% to 252/252 Impish Leafeon. With lefties that's not a 2HKO, and CB Kabutops is rare anyway.
Quagsire actually makes a pretty good counter to most RD teams now that i think about it. It stops Qwilfish,Toxicroak, and Kabutops and Gorebyss/Omastar lacking HP Grass.
Also note that some really defensive Pokemon can take Kabutops Stone Edge, such as Leafeon running max hp/def and Leafeon obviously OHKOs back. CB Adamant Stone Edge does 44-52% to 252/252 Impish Leafeon. With lefties that's not a 2HKO, and CB Kabutops is rare anyway.
@ODDish, Cynthia: I brought up moving Clefable to BL a few pages back, but I was met with the same lack of support.
As for Rain teams, Kabutops is very dangerous, able to eliminate even top physical walls as most are weak to Water anyway. I would be in favor of moving it up.
Swellow, on the other hand, is not a big problem for me, as I use Probopass on all my teams. But without him then, yes, Swellow is a huge threat. Again, I could see it in BL.
As for Rain teams, Kabutops is very dangerous, able to eliminate even top physical walls as most are weak to Water anyway. I would be in favor of moving it up.
Swellow, on the other hand, is not a big problem for me, as I use Probopass on all my teams. But without him then, yes, Swellow is a huge threat. Again, I could see it in BL.
Rain Dance is quite strong in UU, with Kabutops, Omastar, Gorebyss, Qwilfish or Toxicroak. It's almost imposible to stop an Omastar after a Rain Dance, my team dies really fast against it, and with Kabutops I have the same success. I don't really find a good counter in UU to Omastar and Gorebyss, where only Mantine could stop Gorebyss, although Omastar has Anthien Power to kick him, and without recovery move...
About Kabutops, it's easier to stop with Quagsire, because Kabutops' two STABs don't work in Quagsire.
Nowadays I see that we have some trouble with:
- Omastar: after Rain Dance, it's almost unstoppable, depending on its third attack, it could be "walled" by Mantine (without Anthien Power) or by Quagsire (without HP Grass).
- Gorebyss: after Rain Dance, like Omastar, it's hard to stop, but Mantine does it well without HP Electric, and Quagsire does it without HP Grass.
- Hitmontop: I have to say it. I don't find a good counter to this beast apart from Claydol. I'm trying Rotom, but Stone Edge and Pursuit hurts a lot.
- Clefable: if you don't have a Hitmonchan, Hitmonlee, Hitmontop, Primeape or Toxicroak, you are walled by Clefable. It's that simple.
- Steelix: in my opinion, it's like Blissey, but in UU and in the physical spectrum. It has unhealthy weakness, but a lot of physical attackers are stopped by it.
We should pay more attention to these five pokemons, because others like Drapion, Leafeon, Ninetales or Jynx aren't so threatening as their partners.
About Kabutops, it's easier to stop with Quagsire, because Kabutops' two STABs don't work in Quagsire.
Nowadays I see that we have some trouble with:
- Omastar: after Rain Dance, it's almost unstoppable, depending on its third attack, it could be "walled" by Mantine (without Anthien Power) or by Quagsire (without HP Grass).
- Gorebyss: after Rain Dance, like Omastar, it's hard to stop, but Mantine does it well without HP Electric, and Quagsire does it without HP Grass.
- Hitmontop: I have to say it. I don't find a good counter to this beast apart from Claydol. I'm trying Rotom, but Stone Edge and Pursuit hurts a lot.
- Clefable: if you don't have a Hitmonchan, Hitmonlee, Hitmontop, Primeape or Toxicroak, you are walled by Clefable. It's that simple.
- Steelix: in my opinion, it's like Blissey, but in UU and in the physical spectrum. It has unhealthy weakness, but a lot of physical attackers are stopped by it.
We should pay more attention to these five pokemons, because others like Drapion, Leafeon, Ninetales or Jynx aren't so threatening as their partners.
I have no comment on Clefable, because of the lack of people to practice my team with I haven't been on the ladder yet. xD
But it does seem like a couple of things can come in and set up on it...
Or use the gimmicky move Feint, but wasting a slot on it only proves Clefable's power more.
But it does seem like a couple of things can come in and set up on it...
Or use the gimmicky move Feint, but wasting a slot on it only proves Clefable's power more.
I don't see Steelix as 'UU Blissey', if anything because of lack of recovery and presence of exploitable weaknesses. Hit it on the special side at all, particularly with something it's weak against (Fire, Water, Ground, fighting). Steelix is tough, but not overly so.
Clefable can get the UU Bliss argument though,as unless you have a specific counter for it it walls everything. And it can attack back fairly well.
Clefable can get the UU Bliss argument though,as unless you have a specific counter for it it walls everything. And it can attack back fairly well.
ODDish, I completely agree with you in saying Clefable is too strong for UU. It's immune to all forms of passive damage, and beats it's common counters easily (and it can do this without running a gimmick set either). Basically, the only pokemon that can come close to OHKOing it are Fighting types, but almost none of them can switch in safely without risking nasty status or Double Edge / Facade.
I think it should go to BL as well. It's on every single UU team out there, it's just that good. I'm tired of seeing it, it's so greedy and it can get away with it too, thanks to Wish/Protect or Softboiled and immunity to status or passive damage.
Don't get discouraged, it's not as if you are the only one who actually cares what happens to UU. I love UU, and I really hate where it seems we are currently headed with this. Soon UU will end up being BL except with Ninetales, Steelix and Clefable thrown in it.
What I don't understand is why people think it's a necessity for a pokemon to have a 100% counter in a tier for said pokemon to be viable in that tier. As i've said before Clefable can run quite a few sets but all and may i reinterate ALL of it's sets actually have 100% counters, it's just a matter of finding out what set it's running. People mention how gigantic Clefable's movepool is but to be honest, I don't know if it's just in my battles but I only ever see three sets being used with any form of regularity. The Calm Minder, The Toxic Orb Facade user and the Wish/Protect variant and i'm sure it's entirely possible to deal with each and every set.
You mention Clefables inability to be damaged by status or passive damage like if that makes it invincible. Sure it cant be damaged by any of those previously mentioned ways but Clefable only has 95/73/90 defensive stats, and most physical sweepers make short workof it 2HKOing it and even some special attackers can give it trouble even though they are in the minority.
I'd hardly agree it's on every single team, but thats just my own view. The usage statistics at the end of the month should however show just how high Clefable ranks. It seems like the only reason people actually want Clefable banned is because it's annoying to deal with as it isn't taken out or damaged by some conventional means, as I don't think it can really be argued that Clefable has no counters in UU.
I don't think anyone would post here if they didn't like playing UU, the truth is the majority of us do but obviously evryone can't agree on how they want the tier to look, but c'mon,
BL has 50+ pokemon, I hardly think we'd see everyone of them in there.
I agree with Maniaclyrasist, mostly because Clefable balances all the offense of UU special attackers. Without her, who could stop CM Grumpig, CM Jynx, CM anything without having one particular counter to each one? :\
It stalls? Shure but, as stated before, it wont be hurting much and hard hitters 2hkos her anyway (I particulary like Specs Glaceon - its just beautiful when Clefable switches-in only to get 2hkoed).
I'm OK with her and I think she is necessary to balance things out.
edit: And I also don't see Clefable EVERYWERE as people are saying
It stalls? Shure but, as stated before, it wont be hurting much and hard hitters 2hkos her anyway (I particulary like Specs Glaceon - its just beautiful when Clefable switches-in only to get 2hkoed).
I'm OK with her and I think she is necessary to balance things out.
edit: And I also don't see Clefable EVERYWERE as people are saying
Perhaps every tier needs a Blissey-equivalent in order to balance out the power potencial of Special Attackers, and currently it just happens to be Clefable. And because Clefable is beginning to fill the same role, people are beginning to have the same negative reaction to it that they have towards Blissey.
I don't get how you people compare it to Blissey.. there are far better special walls in UU and she's not even on the top 3 list. She doesn't stop CM Jynx or CM Grumpig if she isn't carrying CM herself. For god sake's, you can't even switch it against Ninetales if it's the start of the battle and your Toxic Orb haven't activated yet, because of the fear of being Hypnotized on the switch.
I personally don't see what all the Clefable fuss is about. Much like big sister Blissey, it is a powerful doorstop to the majority of offensive threats, and it can take the offense with specialized movesets for specific switch-ins (Facade for Hitmonlee being a perfect example), or the requisite CM/BoltBeam set, but beyond that, it is set up bait. Yes, it gets Encore, but I'm the only person I've ever seen run it. Without it, NP Toxicroak, SD Leafeon, Dragon Dance Altaria (the latter two assuming no Ice Beam, obviously), some of the biggest setup threats in UU, can walk all over it, and Focus Punch Aggron can do so regardless with a good outprediction. And even if it does run Encore, that's one less viable moveslot, meaning it can't nearly as easily get away with run Wish/Protect (or Protect in general, even if it is tempting to run with Encore), SubPunch, or CMBoltBeam.
It also serves as one of the few "true" counters (sort of) to the one poke that I feel absolutely needs to be discussed that isn't getting treated- Jumpluff. Seriously. I've been going apeshit on the UU ladder with this guy today. Jumpluff alone has gotten four people to quit in UU (and one in OU when I hit the wrong ladder button). SubSeed alone can stall out entire teams at times given that he's tied for third highest natural speed in UU, easily outdamaging Stealth Rock over the course of a match (and being deadly in tandem with it).
At this point you probably want to bring up Grass types as 100% counters to Jumpluff's SubSeed shenanigans, consider Jum rarely if ever runs an attack off those base 55 offensive stats. But when you consider that, in UU, Grass types run the Aromatherapy game, you have to compound the value of Jumpluff's Sleep Powder against them. Vileplume and Meganium aren't doing a damn thing about your Toxic'd Lanturn or your paralyzed Swellow if they themselves are completely incapacitated by the third most accurate sleep move in the game. And once that vital grass type is asleep, you're obviously in a tight spot. Do you switch out, and let Jumpluff keep SubSeeding through until it finds the move that, when Encored, opens the window to sweep your team, or do you leave the grasser in and wait out the sleep?
And oh, Encore...what a fine move Encore is. I wanted to give it it's own paragraph, and I guess I did, but honestly, when you've got something with an EQ immunity, a 4x resistance to something that several prominent walls bear a 4x weakness to, an immunity to Leech Seed and Toxic Spikes, Substitute, and a base 85 SpDef with Surf resistance, I'm sure you can think of your own Encore hijinx.
The only time Jumpluff hasn't at least either stalled out 200% total health from the opponent's team, slept a threat, or opened the window for one of my own was when I switched it into Lanturn's Thunder Wave, expecting Surf. It was the single most heartbreaking moment I've had on the UU ladder. And it was poor playing on my part, and obviously has no bearing on Jumpluff's abilities.
Edit: Oh, and while I'm at it, if I'm going to advocate Jumpluff moving up, I'm advocating Steelix go with it. Seriously, the only physical attack I've seen 2HKO this thing was Banded Hitmonlee's Close Combat (I'm not sure if Life Orb does as well), which I believe is going to have the highest damage output of any physical attack on Steelix in UU, barring something that requires a set-up or switch-in like Hitmonchan's Focus Punch. Considering his Toxic immunity and ability to 2HKO most other UU walls that can hit him super-effectively, like Quagsire or Nidoqueen, the only sure-fire ways I've found of shutting him down are surprising him with Vacuum Wave Toxicroak (it OHKO's with a single Nasty Plot) or stalling him to death with my favorite current UU, Jumpluff.
It also serves as one of the few "true" counters (sort of) to the one poke that I feel absolutely needs to be discussed that isn't getting treated- Jumpluff. Seriously. I've been going apeshit on the UU ladder with this guy today. Jumpluff alone has gotten four people to quit in UU (and one in OU when I hit the wrong ladder button). SubSeed alone can stall out entire teams at times given that he's tied for third highest natural speed in UU, easily outdamaging Stealth Rock over the course of a match (and being deadly in tandem with it).
At this point you probably want to bring up Grass types as 100% counters to Jumpluff's SubSeed shenanigans, consider Jum rarely if ever runs an attack off those base 55 offensive stats. But when you consider that, in UU, Grass types run the Aromatherapy game, you have to compound the value of Jumpluff's Sleep Powder against them. Vileplume and Meganium aren't doing a damn thing about your Toxic'd Lanturn or your paralyzed Swellow if they themselves are completely incapacitated by the third most accurate sleep move in the game. And once that vital grass type is asleep, you're obviously in a tight spot. Do you switch out, and let Jumpluff keep SubSeeding through until it finds the move that, when Encored, opens the window to sweep your team, or do you leave the grasser in and wait out the sleep?
And oh, Encore...what a fine move Encore is. I wanted to give it it's own paragraph, and I guess I did, but honestly, when you've got something with an EQ immunity, a 4x resistance to something that several prominent walls bear a 4x weakness to, an immunity to Leech Seed and Toxic Spikes, Substitute, and a base 85 SpDef with Surf resistance, I'm sure you can think of your own Encore hijinx.
The only time Jumpluff hasn't at least either stalled out 200% total health from the opponent's team, slept a threat, or opened the window for one of my own was when I switched it into Lanturn's Thunder Wave, expecting Surf. It was the single most heartbreaking moment I've had on the UU ladder. And it was poor playing on my part, and obviously has no bearing on Jumpluff's abilities.
Edit: Oh, and while I'm at it, if I'm going to advocate Jumpluff moving up, I'm advocating Steelix go with it. Seriously, the only physical attack I've seen 2HKO this thing was Banded Hitmonlee's Close Combat (I'm not sure if Life Orb does as well), which I believe is going to have the highest damage output of any physical attack on Steelix in UU, barring something that requires a set-up or switch-in like Hitmonchan's Focus Punch. Considering his Toxic immunity and ability to 2HKO most other UU walls that can hit him super-effectively, like Quagsire or Nidoqueen, the only sure-fire ways I've found of shutting him down are surprising him with Vacuum Wave Toxicroak (it OHKO's with a single Nasty Plot) or stalling him to death with my favorite current UU, Jumpluff.
That's assuming everyone is sticking to the standard sets ... which they're not. You see what your presume to be a Toxic Orb Facade set, so you switch in Aggron and Sub only to find yourself being Encored ... you send a physical attacker in the calm mind set only to find yourself being countered.
Oh I think you'll find its being whored to a similar level as Hitmontop and Steelix.
That isn't assuming if they stick to the standard set, when i said all sets have counters I meant all. There is no one Clefable set that is unbeatable in UU. The hardest part with Clefable is finding out it's entire moveset, pretty similar to Lucario and Gengar in OU. Most times you'll be able to tell what moveset it is running from the moment it uses an attack, and you can work to counter it from there.
Um...what walls are Steelix 2HKOing with around the roughly 236 Attack that the standard spread suggests, which will never 2hko Quagsire and which Max Def and Max HP Nidoqueen will actually always survive due to Leftovers recovery.
Wouldn't that be under the top?
Seriously though, I think we've said all that can be said on the subject of Clefable. On one side, all it's sets have counters and it is susceptible to any Fighting attacks or strong physical STAB.
On the other, it is very unpredictable, requires about two team members on average to shut it down, and is just a general pain in the @$$. But we'll see come the usage statistics.
P.S. I agree with moving Jumpluff to BL. Encore + fast sleep + Subseed + solid immunities and resistances = Broken IMO.
i also agree with jumpluff, I can stop it as a lead only, and that's only because I set up my sub pass driftblim to lum+ unburden. so it being incorporated inside a team where it can come out encore a random set-up, sucker punch, sub, then sit and sub seed off that
I dont agree with steelix either, seems to have a lot going with that defence *stealth rocks + STAB earthquake roar if you even consider setting up anything to kill it*
as for banning outright, let the usage statistics come in and discuss it then. where we get a bigger picture as to who is using what and what the best players are using.
I dont agree with steelix either, seems to have a lot going with that defence *stealth rocks + STAB earthquake roar if you even consider setting up anything to kill it*
as for banning outright, let the usage statistics come in and discuss it then. where we get a bigger picture as to who is using what and what the best players are using.
I'll admit that i haven't read all the posts in the past few pages, but from what I skimmed I noticed Rain Dance teams mentioned so I'd figure I'd give my thoughts on it. They truely are ridiculous in UU, but from what I've seen it's really only 3 Pokemon that are doing all the work: Omastar, Gorebyss and Kabutops. So take that as you will.
Also I figured I'd mention that Kabutops really does kick ass even outside of rain. I run a 3 sweeper core on my UU team and Kabutops consistently provides amazing results and sometimes I'm just astounded by the ease in which it runs through good players with well made teams.
Also I figured I'd mention that Kabutops really does kick ass even outside of rain. I run a 3 sweeper core on my UU team and Kabutops consistently provides amazing results and sometimes I'm just astounded by the ease in which it runs through good players with well made teams.
Rain Dance is extremely powerful in UU. I was only able to disrupt a Kabutops sweep with smart maneuvering with Toxicroak. Omastar is the 2nd major rain dance threat because Mantine can be punished with Anicent Power. Gorebyss normally rounds out a rain dance team but isn't nearly has threatening as Kabutops or Omastar.
I think that those two pokemon must have a closer look taken at them, sure you can have one "rain dance" counter on a team but when faced with 3 that one counter is going to be hard pressed to stop them.
Rain Dance is extremely easy to set up and has gotten an extreme boost in DP with Damp Rock and Life Orb rain dance sweepers. It seems to be gaining more and more popularity and I think that with that popularity people will become more aware that some rain dancers are just too powerful for UU.