DP Tier Discussion - BL and UU (mark 2)

[Age of Kings]

EDIT;; Accidentally wrote Drifloon instead of Drifblim. xD

When making every BL pokemon UU you basically create a BL/UU metagame.
If so the BL pokes will see a lot of usage while the former UU will become ignored or at least a majority

Firstly, it's just BLs. There's no such things as BL/UU, although this defeats your second point. UUs are pretty prominent in BL. It's nothing like "OMFG EVERYTHINAPOCALYPTIC AND OVERPOWERED". By your statement, it's clear to me that you've obviously never played it. Let me make a small,, rough, off the top of my head list of common UU staples in BLs (don't kill me if I miss something).

Common (seen every couple of matches)

• Persian
• Meganium
• Lanturn
• Golduck
• Drifblim
• Ninetales (curiously, this is used more than Houndoom)
• Blastoise
• Gastrodon
• Kangaskhan
• Altaria (although it faces the threat of Scarf Flygon)
• Lapras
• Toxicroak (for rain teams, obviously)
• Muk (interestingly, even with Psychics and Regis running around)
• Scyther
• Steelix
• Claydol

Rare and unused (and reasons)

• Venomoth (simply cannot match the raw power of other Specs Pokemon, better things that resist even Tinted Lens moves)
• Swellow (outclassed by Staraptor, even though it's faster)
• Omastar (most people choose to run Kingdra)
• Kabutops (too many bulky Grassers and HP Grass in general thrown around.....for Gastrodon! also, Azumarill is preferred for the physical water role)

Now, this is objective, from what only one person has seen from several months playing BL. And yes, despite the small number of people who play BL, you can still obtain reliable stats as to what different people use. When you see a lot of the same things, it's far from "many of the former UU will mostly be ignored, or at least the majority", and they more or less preform the same functions and run the same sets as in UU. I noted some things that are used despite new threats that are opened up in BL. With so many viable UU Pokemon in BL, it hardly seems like an apocalyptic doomsday to the balance of UU, but the reason I oppose it is that it's just different and results would be inconclusive.

 

[evolutia]

Did you see how long it took Pinsir to be banned from UU, or Wobbuffet from OU? Garchomp is still heavily under debate and Deoxys S was also under debate until the recent poll, it's obvious that our current method isn't good enough. Now can you imagine that if we add 50+ BL pokemon to the mix?

That is the number one reason why I'm against Obi's proposal or anyone that supports it. If anyone can come up with a better idea other than the current system we currently use; I think it would strengthen your argument.

But no one proposing this idea has. I think it is rude an downright disrespectful to everyone that has worked on this UU thus far and those who are comfortable with this UU. Throwing away their hard work and expecting them to be on board with a plan that isn't even completely thought through...yeah right.

I also think it's somewhat amusing that testing the BL's independently from the UU's gets the exact same result without the mess. Which is another reason why I'm against moving the BL's down.

 

[Age of Kings]

It would be sad, though, that the creation of a BL ladder would only be to "test" things for the benefit of UU's balance. I implore Smogon to introduce a BL ladder to their server for the only benefit for playing BL and nothing more, and to provide an outlet for BL players.

 

[gengod]

The BL metagame has already been long determined, but has largely been stagnant due to the lack of popularity like ubers enjoys

There is no BL metagame. BL exists soley to ban pokemon from UU, there has never been any move to balance out BL as a true metagame. Obi's proposal could work to help to make BL a more viable and stable metagame.

 

[mien]

EDIT;; Accidentally wrote Drifloon instead of Drifblim. xD


Firstly, it's just BLs. There's no such things as BL/UU, although this defeats your second point. UUs are pretty prominent in BL. It's nothing like "OMFG EVERYTHINAPOCALYPTIC AND OVERPOWERED". By your statement, it's clear to me that you've obviously never played it. Let me make a small,, rough, off the top of my head list of common UU staples in BLs (don't kill me if I miss something).

I did play BL before and i even participated in a BL tournament one or 2 months ago where i managed to reach the finals.
What I've learned from those matches is that BL's clearly dominate those matches as like you would have introduced Ubers into OU
Yes there WILL be a few UU pokes used in BL just like OU's are used in Ubers but those will be a minority

Examples like those I've made are Aboma and Mismagius who clearly dominate in that metagame

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

Did you see how long it took Pinsir to be banned from UU, or Wobbuffet from OU? Garchomp is still heavily under debate and Deoxys S was also under debate until the recent poll, it's obvious that our current method isn't good enough. Now can you imagine that if we add 50+ BL pokemon to the mix?

Nobody said it would be easy, and that is no reason to ignore the idea altogether. I also find it curious that you used the awkward cases such as Pinsir to back up your argument and yet ignored other cases such as Ambipom, Feraligatr, Ursaring etc which were resolved in a matter of days, or a couple of weeks at most?

Why is the method obviously not good enough? Did we not come to a reasonable conclusion in each case? Not only is the 'it will take too much time' argument a case of wimping out when the going gets tough, it is also making the hasty assumption that we will have a large number of hard cases to settle from the beginning. From the first-hand information Age of Kings has provided there is evidence for the opposite, and first-hand evidence is the only kind I'm willing to accept on this issue.

the only thing that's been changing is the introduction of a couple of old OU utilities like Weezing and Donphan, and no longer having to worry about stalling Spiritomb.

So is Abomasnow not having much of an effect then?

Unbanning BLs would accomplish nothing for UU, because we'd be basing their performance against other BLs, not UU as it is.

True, but if those 16 UU Pokemon that you mention or otherwise are 'OU' on this new ladder then surely they no longer qualify for UU as it is now, so UU certainly would change.

Obi's proposal could work to help to make BL a more viable and stable metagame.

I absolutely agree, but people must accept that it will have implications for what is allowed in UU.

 

[Age of Kings]

There is no BL metagame. BL exists soley to ban pokemon from UU, there has never been any move to balance out BL as a true metagame. Obi's proposal could work to help to make BL a more viable and stable metagame.

The correct word should be "tier". People do play BL, but its small popularity won't make a "metagame" in its strictest definition due to the small variety of playing styles. I'm supposing that's what you mean by "viable and stable". BL is not a true tier; how can we truly "balance" it? Ban things to OU if it's overpowering? I thought BL and OU were determined solely on usage.

I did play BL before and i even participated in a BL tournament one or 2 months ago where i managed to reach the finals.
What I've learned from those matches is that BL's clearly dominate those matches as like you would have introduced Ubers into OU
Yes there WILL be a few UU pokes used in BL just like OU's are used in Ubers but those will be a minority

Examples like those I've made are Aboma and Mismagius who clearly dominate in that metagame

Your misconception is due to the fact that the "dominating" BLs are the heavy sweepers. Of course they seem to clearly dominate, because as I mentioned before, BL places heavy emphasis on set-up for the grand finale and the large pool of them available in comparison to UU. Your analogy is poor, because OU is built upon speed wars and resistances, therefore a lot will be too fragile to compete in ubers or just don't work. Also, note that OU is far smaller than UU, reducing the pool of vaible Pokemon (and the fact that a handful of UU and BLs are also viable for ubers). Besides, ubers is the top of the top; some really are unstoppable. I have no other comment since I do not play ubers.

I've only seen a hail team once. Obama is pretty rare due to the "revenge of the SR rejects": Charizard and Moltres are prime examples. As a wall by itself, it has plenty of weaknesses that are easily exploited by a lot of things. It far from "clearly dominates".
Mismagius doesn't dominate by itself either. It's common, but what is a big threat of BL is the number of Calm Minders. So what? When making a team you have to consider threats, and the threat of Calm Minders is one of them (hence why Golduck is up there). Again, emphasis on set up and a bias towards special attacks. It is stoppable, but what people around here want are concrete counters. That, BL cannot provide for most of its denizens, and that's a problem some people find with it. But since it's not a real tier, I wouldn't find that an issue so much as using skill to defeat them. PHazers and Hazers are very effective for those reasons.

So is Abomasnow not having much of an effect then?

Its placement in OU was temporary, only for a few months (iirc, it became OU around December or January). As far as I'm concerned, it always was BL. Nobody missed the things anyway.

True, but if those 16 UU Pokemon that you mention or otherwise are 'OU' on this new ladder then surely they no longer qualify for UU as it is now, so UU certainly would change.

Why would it change due to usage? They're not overpowering for UU, keep them in. It only works for BL---->OU because they're determined on usage, not UU---->BL based on power. Scizor and Jirachi barely missed the cut-off point for "OU" ubers, is anyone clamoring for them to be uber? (Yes, I mentioned above that they're different, but the fact stands that it's also an OU ban list.) I saw somewhere here that Tentacruel was questionable that it's OU purely due to usage, but iirc never elicited complaints before it became widely used in OU. While usage = power and usefulness, usage =/= overpower (except in a few select cases where usage is getting out of hand and shooting off the charts).

 

[mien]

Your misconception is due to the fact that the "dominating" BLs are the heavy sweepers. Of course they seem to clearly dominate, because as I mentioned before, BL places heavy emphasis on set-up for the grand finale and the large pool of them available in comparison to UU. Your analogy is poor, because OU is built upon speed wars and resistances, therefore a lot will be too fragile to compete in ubers or just don't work. Also, note that OU is far smaller than UU, reducing the pool of vaible Pokemon (and the fact that a handful of UU and BLs are also viable for ubers). Besides, ubers is the top of the top; some really are unstoppable. I have no other comment since I do not play ubers.

I've only seen a hail team once. Obama is pretty rare due to the "revenge of the SR rejects": Charizard and Moltres are prime examples. As a wall by itself, it has plenty of weaknesses that are easily exploited by a lot of things. It far from "clearly dominates".
Mismagius doesn't dominate by itself either. It's common, but what is a big threat of BL is the number of Calm Minders. So what? When making a team you have to consider threats, and the threat of Calm Minders is one of them (hence why Golduck is up there). Again, emphasis on set up and a bias towards special attacks. It is stoppable, but what people around here want are concrete counters. That, BL cannot provide for most of its denizens, and that's a problem some people find with it. But since it's not a real tier, I wouldn't find that an issue so much as using skill to defeat them. PHazers and Hazers are very effective for those reasons.

I never said the dominating pokemons in BL are sweepers and you it clearly shows you never played Ubers before because most Ubers with exception of Arceus can be countered by OU pokemon and aren't that unstoppable in any way
Aboma far from clearly dominates? lol mister i've reached the No1 on the OU ladder with a hailteam how devasting could such a team in BL then?
You clearly underestamate Aboma's potential

 

[Droideka88]

Has anyone considered just spilitting the BL metagame into two tier ranks where one group is "seen often, strong", which is below OU and the other group are "seen often, weak", which could be right above UU?

To an extent, I've kind of given up on my other proposal for tier ranks that, based power and popularity, could be re-organized into MU (Mainly Used), OU (Often Used), SU (Sometimes Used), FU (Fairly Used), RU (Rarely used). PM me if you want more information...

Anyway, as long as we can define those two new tiers that was once BL without overcomplicating things, we could finally get rid of some top UU Pokemon like Clefable and Ninetales from the current and messy UU tier (still has UU and NU ><) and place them in a much better and more appropriate tier rank.

If this works, then I can detect some of the tier names adjusting a little...

Instead of looking into the past, we have to look towards the future. :)

 

[gengod]

Nobody said it would be easy, and that is no reason to ignore the idea altogether. I also find it curious that you used the awkward cases such as Pinsir to back up your argument and yet ignored other cases such as Ambipom, Feraligatr, Ursaring etc which were resolved in a matter of days, or a couple of weeks at most?

Why would I bring up cases that were obviously too strong for the metagame like Mamoswine, Ambipom, Feraligatr, Ursaring, etc... who were moved at what, the beginning of UU before the metagame was even anywhere near being settled? And how is Pinsir an awkward case? It was suggested for banning for months before anything was done about it because of numerous arguments from both sides, which i believe could easily repeat itself for quite a number of BL pokemon.

Why is the method obviously not good enough? Did we not come to a reasonable conclusion in each case? Not only is the 'it will take too much time' argument a case of wimping out when the going gets tough, it is also making the hasty assumption that we will have a large number of hard cases to settle from the beginning. From the first-hand information Age of Kings has provided there is evidence for the opposite, and first-hand evidence is the only kind I'm willing to accept on this issue.

If the method was good enough it would not take months to decide upon a pokemons place in a tier. As for Age of Kings "evidence" he is only one person and those are his personal views. I've also played BL from time to time, not months like AoK claims he has played but from my own personal experience UU pokemon are hardly used. The UU pokemon AoK brought up I have also seen from time to time but are hardly what I would consider common. From playing that faux tier you come to realise that many of the pokemon there either outshadow similar UU pokemon or either have absolutely no counters in that metagame.

I absolutely agree, but people must accept that it will have implications for what is allowed in UU.

I don't see how the BL metagame would have much implications on the UU metagame. Bl and UU do not work in the same way OU and BL work with the lesser used OU pokemon then becoming BL. Pokemon that aren't used much in the BL metagame don't automatically go to UU like with OU and BL and if a BL pokemon is found to be viable in UU then it would just be moved to UU as the BL metagame would allow both BL and UU pokemon.

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

Why would it change due to usage? They're not overpowering for UU, keep them in. It only works for BL---->OU because they're determined on usage, not UU---->BL based on power.

This is clearly just a conflict of opinions as to what the BL ladder should represent.

You are suggesting that the BL ladder should be analogous to the Ubers ladder where statistics don't really matter and are only for curiosity's sake. However I disagree with this notion. I think the BL ladder should be representative of an official 'Tier 2' whilst UU should represent 'Tier 3' and only allow those Pokemon who aren't used much in OU and Tier 2.

As much as I love the current UU, from a purely objective standpoint I must concede that there is no justification whatsoever for it to be a real tier (convenience is no excuse), and people who have become overattached to UU are choosing to be ignorant of that fact.

It was suggested for banning for months before anything was done about it because of numerous arguments from both sides, which i believe could easily repeat itself for quite a number of BL pokemon.

I agree, it could turn out like that. But instead of complaining about that before we even get started, I don't see why we can't embrace such a challenge. After all, the day that we cease to have any problems to resolve within a particular tier is the day that that tier begins to quickly get stagnant. Occasional changes help keep the metagame fresh, so I don't see why we can't just go through with Obi's proposal headfirst and see what happens.

 

[Age of Kings]

I never said the dominating pokemons in BL are sweepers and you it clearly shows you never played Ubers before because most Ubers with exception of Arceus can be countered by OU pokemon and aren't that unstoppable in any way
Aboma far from clearly dominates? lol mister i've reached the No1 on the OU ladder with a hailteam how devasting could such a team in BL then?
You clearly underestamate Aboma's potential

Firstly, I am not a "mister". I am a "miss". Thank you.

Ummm, I said I didn't play ubers myself? Look through my post and you'll find it there. Although ubers shouldn't have to be countered by OU Pokemon. BLs shouldn't have to be countered by UUs, but it's the same case. They can. I never said the opposite about ubers to OU either. I thought you were the one who said "OH MY GOD BLS WOULD DOMINATE THE SAME WAY UBERS WOULD DOMINATE OU". You're missing the fact that there is a far larger concentration of UUs in BL to OUs in ubers. You're missing the fact that all of them are different. But we're not talking about OU and ubers, and I honestly don't give a shit how you did on OU ladder (and the fact that there aren't Dragon types on every single team). The only similarity is that they both aren't true tiers and they function as ban lists to create a stable environment. I don't underestimate Obama; rather, all BL teams know how to prepare for it and Stallrein, and they are likely better prepared than the OU team, which has such a hard time trying to slow and stop other threats already that any radically different thing can tear a hole.

 

[Age of Kings]

If the method was good enough it would not take months to decide upon a pokemons place in a tier. As for Age of Kings "evidence" he is only one person and those are his personal views. I've also played BL from time to time, not months like AoK claims he has played but from my own personal experience UU pokemon are hardly used. The UU pokemon AoK brought up I have also seen from time to time but are hardly what I would consider common. From playing that faux tier you come to realise that many of the pokemon there either outshadow similar UU pokemon or either have absolutely no counters in that metagame.

I don't know why everyone on the internet assumes everyone is male. =/ If it's my username, its namesake is Age of Empires II, an awesome RTS game and by far the best of the AoE trilogy.
And I do have a couple of logs to back up what I said, but since I don't save them often, I don't think they're enough to satisfy people. I can honestly say some confounded me (Meganium over Shaymin and showing up every few matches, Curse Muk over Regis and Snorlax, for example). However, I did mention in the post that they were from my personal experience, and had no bearings in any way. No one's personal experience is binding to anything. Both of our views could be false, for all we know. Fortunately, it only strengthens the reasonings for a BL ladder.

The last sentence, regardless of view, is absolutely true.

 

[evolutia]

I agree, it could turn out like that. But instead of complaining about that before we even get started, I don't see why we can't embrace such a challenge. After all, the day that we cease to have any problems to resolve within a particular tier is the day that that tier begins to quickly get stagnant. Occasional changes help keep the metagame fresh, so I don't see why we can't just go through with Obi's proposal headfirst and see what happens.

There is nothing wrong with complaining if it is a legitimate complaint. Going head first into Obi's proposal is foolhardy. Ground rules and specific criteria must be established before such a movement can take place; well effectively take place I should say.

I'm not exactly sure when Obi brought this up but I don't think it was exactly when the OU metagame was founded. At that point after OU's foundation a poll should have been erected to see what "people wanted to do in with UU" not bring up the idea after people put so much work into making UU what it is right now.

If BL pokemon cannot even be countered effectively in there own faux tier where a small pool of UU pokemon compete alongside with them, what makes it a good idea to move them into UU where we already have a general idea as to what would happen to the metagame with their inclusion?

Optimally a full metagame test is ideal but it is by no means a necessity to make a balanced and playable tier. It certainly isn't optimal after so many put so much work into this UU. Perhaps smogon could go into the next generation of pokemon with a full meta test but it's not ideal now.

 

[Drakhun]

So, in order to change anything you're reccomending waiting 3-5 years for a new game. A tier reset should have been one of the first things done when DP came out. It's worth a shot, because as is there are more BL pokemon than UU pokemon almost. If half of BL has to go back, so be it; however a tier reset is a good idea.

 

[Cynthia]

I think it would be better to test it small groups than to test all the UU/BL pokes at once. Pokemon can't be banned simply from abnormally high usage (or else Garchomp would be uber), so they must somehow prove overcentralization. This leads to more discussion/argumenatation over what moves up and down, except it's being done with a very large number of Pokemon. It would be smarter to test a few in the current UU metagame, see what the results are, test a few more etc. Pokemon could also be removed from UU in a similar fashion. It would be wiser IMO, not to make too many drastic changes all at once.

 

[Drakhun]

Except for the fact that pkemon don't exist in a vacuum and if a certain poke is introduced at one moment, but none of its counters, then it will be more problematic than if everything was introduced at once. You'll get a much better idea of if something is over centralizing or not by introducing everything at once.

 

[gengod]

Except for the fact that pkemon don't exist in a vacuum and if a certain poke is introduced at one moment, but none of its counters, then it will be more problematic than if everything was introduced at once. You'll get a much better idea of if something is over centralizing or not by introducing everything at once.

One of the problems here is that there are quite a few pokemon in BL that already lack decent switchins and counters in that faux tier.

 

[evolutia]

Drakhun. What is wrong with an initial test of the BL independent of UU? That test would give you some very valuable tools to bring forth to strengthen your argument perhaps. To see if it actually would be worth while in order to create a "better" UU metagame.

Dropping them in without a thought until they actually get there is not wise.

 

[phalanx]

BL isn't a metagame because no one has created a ladder for it, Ubers is more or less the same thing (a place where pokemon too strong for its tier to end up) so why cant it work?
if we had BL and UU together everyone would use mostly BL pokemon, and with an undefined NU tier, another thing people what, what happens when this comes around?
and as i said before UU is fine as is, maybe a few bannings needed, other then that it is fine.

 

[Luphrous]

I must agree with phalanx, UU is fine as is. Sure, there's a few pokes that we aren't sure of, but that doesn't require we drop every BL to figure out.
I just don't see why we're doing all this. Nothing is wrong with UU, so why go and turn everything upside down?

 

[evolutia]

I must agree with phalanx, UU is fine as is. Sure, there's a few pokes that we aren't sure of, but that doesn't require we drop every BL to figure out.
I just don't see why we're doing all this. Nothing is wrong with UU, so why go and turn everything upside down?

I have no idea why. There are other much easier ways to test the BL pokemon. I have no idea why people who want BL's tested want to destory UU for that purpose.

 

[Luphrous]

I'd also like to say that if we absolutely must test out all these BL, I think that doing it in small groups of offensive pokes, leaving their 'counters' in BL, would probably work better. Don't say "But what if we drop down a certain poke but not its counter, then it would look too strong when all we really need to do is bring down its counter." I want to make this clear, if a poke is going to be moved down to UU, what's already there must be able to counter it. If the poke is brought down and nothing can stop it, then bringing down its counter from BL is not the answer, as you would need the counter from BL on your team in order to stand a chance, which would be over-centralizing, no? However, if it's brought down and what is already in UU can counter it, then it should stay UU.




After reading Lemmiwinks' post, I'm agreeing that we should first create a BL ladder, as once we have more experience of that tier, we'll be in a better position to decide what needs to be done to these tiers.

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

I have no idea why. There are other much easier ways to test the BL pokemon. I have no idea why people who want BL's tested want to destory UU for that purpose.

I completely understand this concern, and I see that many people here share it. For this reason I am changing my stance somewhat and supporting a compromise deal that Age of Kings and Maniaclyrasist have suggested, which is to introduce a BL ladder completely separate from UU. This way everyone can get a first-hand experience of what the tier is like without causing any disruption to UU. After some testing we will then all be in a better position to decide, as evolutia mentioned, whether we should keep the tier completely separated from UU or to incorporate the two into an integrated tier system alongside OU.

Nobody has anything to lose from this, and all I have really ever wanted was to see a tier system in which the maximum possible number of Pokemon belong in a tier where they can compete fairly, so this will go someway to achieving that.

 

[Slickee]

I totally agree with the BL ladder, it's basically what Obi has been proposing while at the same time preserving UU as is for the rest of us. Of course, participation from the UUers will have to be highly encouraged for the benefit of the metagame, which means we might need to put off normal UU for awhile.

That being said, some of you have already stated that BL has powerful sweepers that are nearly impossible to counter. (I haven't played BL, so I'll have to rely on your testimony. :P) Why don't we just ban them preemptively? Yeah, it's not a complete drop, but using BL experience and some theorymoning, it shouldn't be that difficult to figure out what will overwhelm UU testing and throw things off. And we can always re-test them later once everything has settled down if we feel the need to.