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DP Tier Discussion - BL and UU (mark 2)
- Thread starter Phuquoph
- Start date
I said "workable". As in, they won't be able to fully counter a full-health Swords Dancer, but they can switch in rather safely and threaten it with Stone Edge.
What I'm saying is that it can be walled with prediction. That's basically the reason Aerodactyl is UU. I'm not saying that UU has changed to the point where Pinsir is not overpowering, I'm saying that its arguments for BL status apply to other UU Pokemon as well.
i think almost everyone hates the current tier list. can't we revert to the last known point of um...balancedness and then just run the start from scratch idea once it's uu's turn in the grand scheme of things?
In all honesty I don't recall there ever being a point when UU was very well balanced...
I thought that the metagame before Weezing and company dropped was fairly well balanced.
You mean the one involving 39 commonly used Pokemon, i.e. more centralized than OU with Garchomp? Or do you mean the earlier UU metagame centred around Pinsir, Clefable, Ninetales and a few others? Hopefully you mean something else, because neither of those options make an ideal UU metagame IMO.
39 isn't THAT bad. I guarantee if we stay on this road at the end of the month we're going to see a game that's centralized almost as much as Ubers.
I'm also taking playability into account here. The previous version of the UU metagame was extremely playable. The current one...not so much.
I'm also taking playability into account here. The previous version of the UU metagame was extremely playable. The current one...not so much.
I'm going to agree with Jabba, though I think that we can agree that Shedinja and Articuno are not too terribly powerful and are probably safe to keep. Obviously no metagame is perfect, but I think these new additions have caused more harm than good. Not to mention that the method in which they were dropped down was kind of arbitrary, there was significant oppisiton to Weezing and I don't recall any discussion on Venasaur whatsoever.
Although personally I'm going to stick with what I said before and say that Clefable is the root of all evil. Pretty much all the Pokemon in the top 39 have some way to beat Clefable or are counters to these Pokemon.
Although personally I'm going to stick with what I said before and say that Clefable is the root of all evil. Pretty much all the Pokemon in the top 39 have some way to beat Clefable or are counters to these Pokemon.
At this point it is not a matter of ideals. The ideal course is going to have to wait... I really do think the controversy reached it's boiling point when this batch of pokemon(Aero,Weezing) was released into the metagame. 39 pokemon is somewhat acceptable...givin the less than ideal circumstances. I certainly don't want to go all the way back to the Pinsir era.
EDIT:
I do agree with Cynthia in probably keeping Shedinja (who never should have been held back so long) and Articuno.
Meh, I'll shorten up my intended original post...
Aerodactyl: People make it seem so much worse than what it is. It has the obvious Rock/ Ground combo and Fire/ Ice. Switch to something bulky[ish] that resist incoming attack and kill it or it will switch out. Once you know if its CB or not should be a piece of cake. UU.
Venasaur: Grass, Poisons, Ghosts, Steels, and Bugs all fair well enough against it. Hit it with a Psychic/ Fire/ Flying attack and it's toast... UU.
Articuno: Great wall. Though it see relatively no use due to Stealth Rock. [haha this one didn't end with a pun >.<] UU.
Shedinja: I wasn't aware these were used in UU. Might aswell move it to NU Tier. NU.
Weezing: I love using Weezing in OU. However, his UU positioning is questionable up untill you hit him with any stab special attack. Lose Clefable then we'll talk. Less Clefable less reason for this guy to be on your team [sorta].
Miltank: CurseTank is scarey but if you have a Special Attacker you can generally 2 shot it. She gets worn down fairly easily. UU.
Clefable: Though it has been my thought that bringing more pokes into UU would be better than removing current UU's. Clefable is an exception. She fill's to many niches which I would think is overcentralization. Essentially, she is anything not named a fighting counter. Which is absurd. Clefable NEEDS to be moved.
Zangoose: I feel that there is only 1 pokemon left to be viable for a single movedown. Which of course is Zangoose. Easiest poke to compare him to would be Sharpedo. Shardpedo has Higher Attack, Higher Special Attack, and most importantly higher speed. Zangoose instead has slightly better Defenses and Swords Dance. They both share the most dreadfull weakness for UU.. Fighting. Zangoose is UU material.
I suppose I have other BL's in question...
Honchcrow
Tauros
Torterra
Finally I would like to address NFE's in UU. By definition NFE's are UU and the "OU light" remark is plain ignorance. I would say that ALL NFE's except Snover and Hippotos should be allowed in UU.
That is all.
Aerodactyl: People make it seem so much worse than what it is. It has the obvious Rock/ Ground combo and Fire/ Ice. Switch to something bulky[ish] that resist incoming attack and kill it or it will switch out. Once you know if its CB or not should be a piece of cake. UU.
Venasaur: Grass, Poisons, Ghosts, Steels, and Bugs all fair well enough against it. Hit it with a Psychic/ Fire/ Flying attack and it's toast... UU.
Articuno: Great wall. Though it see relatively no use due to Stealth Rock. [haha this one didn't end with a pun >.<] UU.
Shedinja: I wasn't aware these were used in UU. Might aswell move it to NU Tier. NU.
Weezing: I love using Weezing in OU. However, his UU positioning is questionable up untill you hit him with any stab special attack. Lose Clefable then we'll talk. Less Clefable less reason for this guy to be on your team [sorta].
Miltank: CurseTank is scarey but if you have a Special Attacker you can generally 2 shot it. She gets worn down fairly easily. UU.
Clefable: Though it has been my thought that bringing more pokes into UU would be better than removing current UU's. Clefable is an exception. She fill's to many niches which I would think is overcentralization. Essentially, she is anything not named a fighting counter. Which is absurd. Clefable NEEDS to be moved.
Zangoose: I feel that there is only 1 pokemon left to be viable for a single movedown. Which of course is Zangoose. Easiest poke to compare him to would be Sharpedo. Shardpedo has Higher Attack, Higher Special Attack, and most importantly higher speed. Zangoose instead has slightly better Defenses and Swords Dance. They both share the most dreadfull weakness for UU.. Fighting. Zangoose is UU material.
I suppose I have other BL's in question...
Honchcrow
Tauros
Torterra
Finally I would like to address NFE's in UU. By definition NFE's are UU and the "OU light" remark is plain ignorance. I would say that ALL NFE's except Snover and Hippotos should be allowed in UU.
That is all.
The problem I see with moving Pokemon up is that some well... they just get sent to a nether region of sorts. Not allowed in one tier, outclassed in another. Doubt this will happen to Clefable, but I just wanted to mention that.
As for Torterra being UU... I'd really enjoy that. Currently, it is in a nether region such as the one I mentioned earlier.
As for Torterra being UU... I'd really enjoy that. Currently, it is in a nether region such as the one I mentioned earlier.
Quoted for truth.
I'm torn. That era seemed to have a much greater diversity of teams. Now whether that was because there was genuinely greater diversity, or simply because there were less people playing UU, and there was less pressure to win in the absence of a ladder, remains to be determined.
Whilst I have genuinely enjoyed the addition of certain pokemon (Cloyster, Claydol, Leafeon), I've come to loathe others (Steelix, Weezing, Articuno, Milktank, Venusaur), and I'm indifferent to the rest (Shedinja, Drapion, Jynx). However at momenet I believe that I would actually favour a return to the "Pinsir era", over the current metagame.
Zangoose was also dicussed but it seems to have slipped between the cracks in terms of our sporadic summaries, and I can't be bothered to trawl through this thread to find out what was decided, assuming, anything.
However given the current climate I would not advocate reopening discussion of these 'mon.
Nothing very definitive was decided on the subject of Zangoose, the general level of opposition was on the high side.
Torterra hasn't been discussed recently, the new addition of Weezing would wall it rather nicely at least. There wasn't much discussion of Honchkrow either.
I honestly have very little to say about Tauros. It seems to be very strong on the physical side, with Intimidate, high speed, and attack, but heck I can't say without doubt that its stronger than Aerodactyl.
Torterra hasn't been discussed recently, the new addition of Weezing would wall it rather nicely at least. There wasn't much discussion of Honchkrow either.
I honestly have very little to say about Tauros. It seems to be very strong on the physical side, with Intimidate, high speed, and attack, but heck I can't say without doubt that its stronger than Aerodactyl.
Isn't that the basic definition of BL? Many of them never get to see the light of OU, but they're still too good for UU.
Well some BL, like Rhyperior and Empoleon, can function well in OU.
Torterra on the other side... well, it just doesn't get used.
Torterra on the other side... well, it just doesn't get used.
Just telling people that I am going to pushing very hard in the next couple of weeks to get this UU tier done "right."
This means I will be pushing for a BL ladder with all NFEs allowed, and once it starts I will frequent this thread after an arbitrary period of time to see what then needs to actually be moved up to BL according to the actual experiences of the players as opposed to completely arbitrary theorymon.
Whether the initially flawed UU metagame (ladder) stays will be dependent on the higher ups, but I'm only for compromising to make everyone happy for the short run.
The bottom line is that the UU metagame as it is (even as it was in Sepember 07 before a few of these really controversial changes) was created in a seriously flawed manner.
I don't care about objectivity or anything, but if you want to create a tier for Pokemon deemed too powerful, then at least you should have experience with them in the lower tier. We created a list of BL Pokemon based on the previous generation and what we "thought" was too powerful, not what we experienced as too powerful.
So continue discussion about moving 1 or 2 or 3 or however many Pokemon up or down in this flawed metagame as much as you want, but know hopefully we will soon begin the project of correcting this metagame.
This means I will be pushing for a BL ladder with all NFEs allowed, and once it starts I will frequent this thread after an arbitrary period of time to see what then needs to actually be moved up to BL according to the actual experiences of the players as opposed to completely arbitrary theorymon.
Whether the initially flawed UU metagame (ladder) stays will be dependent on the higher ups, but I'm only for compromising to make everyone happy for the short run.
The bottom line is that the UU metagame as it is (even as it was in Sepember 07 before a few of these really controversial changes) was created in a seriously flawed manner.
I don't care about objectivity or anything, but if you want to create a tier for Pokemon deemed too powerful, then at least you should have experience with them in the lower tier. We created a list of BL Pokemon based on the previous generation and what we "thought" was too powerful, not what we experienced as too powerful.
So continue discussion about moving 1 or 2 or 3 or however many Pokemon up or down in this flawed metagame as much as you want, but know hopefully we will soon begin the project of correcting this metagame.
As of right now I think we need to take a small poll towards oppisition of moving down Toterra, Honchkrow, Zangoose, and Tauros. I would say all at once or none at all type of poll and there will be no discussion untill after the results a simple Yes or No, As every one has there reasons why Yes or No. If it turns out to be No then I would like for the people who objected to say why. Simple, I would think. Also I would recomemnd no comments on the 6 new UU BL's untill the vote is over. Just a request.
Also I would like to again bring up the NFE's and I would like to bring up the ones that would probably get the most action in UU...
I'm sry this was a cut and paste job. That is 32 pokes from BL and OU tier... well 31 minus Combee <3. Now for some brief commenting...
Chansey: Honestly, I would much rather have Chansey than Clefable in UU. Her defense is pitiful and she will ONLY be able to take special hits.
Rydon: A true powerhouse. But any special hit should be able to take him down with relative ease. Probally see alot of CB sets with him.
Machoke: I really doubt Machoke will be running Rest/ Sleep talk but i could be wrong. Besides there are already plenty of viable fighting counters in UU not to mention Gligar could come down aswell.
Dusclops: I'm not to sure on him. He still boasts amazing Defenses and I think that he wouldn't be able to make the cut.
Those are some just picked out of Random. But some NFE's with litle to no opposition like Seadra, Tangela, Lickitung, Pupitar, and Shelgon should be move down ASAP.
As you can see I very much dislike debateing about things for to long. All the talk makes me feel like I'm watching political issues for forunners of the presidentency..
In conclusion, Torterra, Zangoose, Tauros, and Honchkrow needs to be moved down. As I doubt anyone can come up with enough reasons not to. Also, viable NFE's with little to no opposition should be allowed in UU. I would think that who ever makes the decision of when and what to move down should be able to handle it without everyone complaining.
Thanks
EDIT: Heh, well this took me a long time to type so.. I want to leave it here... I understand rushing things is not always the best way to be done. However, it is my thought that if we have all at once all viable pokemon in the UU tier then remove the problems. Kind of like... I want to eat a 3 Musketeer, however, I don't like the inside so I'll remove it. But I'm dissatisfied with just having the choclate covering, so I'll add Peanuts and Caramel. So why didn't I just buy a Snickers candybar and remove the chocolate fluff instead of go through that entire process?
Also I would like to again bring up the NFE's and I would like to bring up the ones that would probably get the most action in UU...
Chansey
Munchlax
Rhydon
Piloswine
Machoke
Sneasel
Combusken
Marshtomp
Dragonair
Teddiursa
Dusclops
Tangela
Seadra
Magneton
Kadabra
Haunter
Roselia
Electabuzz
Misdreavus
Togetic
Chansey
Tentacool
Lickitung
Yanma
Diglett
Golbat
Gligar
Vibrava
Combee
Meditite
Pupitar
Shelgon
Munchlax
Rhydon
Piloswine
Machoke
Sneasel
Combusken
Marshtomp
Dragonair
Teddiursa
Dusclops
Tangela
Seadra
Magneton
Kadabra
Haunter
Roselia
Electabuzz
Misdreavus
Togetic
Chansey
Tentacool
Lickitung
Yanma
Diglett
Golbat
Gligar
Vibrava
Combee
Meditite
Pupitar
Shelgon
I'm sry this was a cut and paste job. That is 32 pokes from BL and OU tier... well 31 minus Combee <3. Now for some brief commenting...
Chansey: Honestly, I would much rather have Chansey than Clefable in UU. Her defense is pitiful and she will ONLY be able to take special hits.
Rydon: A true powerhouse. But any special hit should be able to take him down with relative ease. Probally see alot of CB sets with him.
Machoke: I really doubt Machoke will be running Rest/ Sleep talk but i could be wrong. Besides there are already plenty of viable fighting counters in UU not to mention Gligar could come down aswell.
Dusclops: I'm not to sure on him. He still boasts amazing Defenses and I think that he wouldn't be able to make the cut.
Those are some just picked out of Random. But some NFE's with litle to no opposition like Seadra, Tangela, Lickitung, Pupitar, and Shelgon should be move down ASAP.
As you can see I very much dislike debateing about things for to long. All the talk makes me feel like I'm watching political issues for forunners of the presidentency..
In conclusion, Torterra, Zangoose, Tauros, and Honchkrow needs to be moved down. As I doubt anyone can come up with enough reasons not to. Also, viable NFE's with little to no opposition should be allowed in UU. I would think that who ever makes the decision of when and what to move down should be able to handle it without everyone complaining.
Thanks
EDIT: Heh, well this took me a long time to type so.. I want to leave it here... I understand rushing things is not always the best way to be done. However, it is my thought that if we have all at once all viable pokemon in the UU tier then remove the problems. Kind of like... I want to eat a 3 Musketeer, however, I don't like the inside so I'll remove it. But I'm dissatisfied with just having the choclate covering, so I'll add Peanuts and Caramel. So why didn't I just buy a Snickers candybar and remove the chocolate fluff instead of go through that entire process?
Why? Speaking as one of the people who originially proposed Torterra/Honchkrow for consideration I really cannot see why their inclusion/exclusion in the tier is such a priority, particularly given the current level of dissatisfaction with those pokemon already moved down.
And would the people who agreed also be disclosing their reasoning?
I think now we should hold off on bringing Pokemon down, since in the end it is kind of... obsolete, when we put all non-OU Pokemon in a tier.
Exclamation Point unless the current dissatisfaction regarding the recent pokemon moved down is resolved I don't think it would be wise to add even more controversial pokemon (Toterra,Tauros,Zangoose and Honchkrow) to the tier. We should instead strive for making the current meta as playable as possible until the BL and NFE ladder is set up.
Evolutia, if you're suggesting that we move up the Pokemon recently moved down, that really won't be done until at least the end of the month when there are usage statistics to work with. And it is rather hard to eb moved out a tier once a Pokemon is placed there IMO.
Also for the combination UU/BL tier thing, could we at least ban all previously OU Pokemon right from the start? I think it would save some time by eliminating things that were nearly OU and could easily move back into that tier.
Also for the combination UU/BL tier thing, could we at least ban all previously OU Pokemon right from the start? I think it would save some time by eliminating things that were nearly OU and could easily move back into that tier.
Just because you think the current UU metagame is flawed doesn't mean it IS flawed ;/
Dropping all Bl's in UU to test is basically the same as dropping all ubers in the OU tier to ''test'' them. Even if Kyogre is broken, Latias counters it. Does that mean both pokemon should stay in OU and not uber? ;/ Same thing pretty much happens when you drop all BL's into UU: Exeggutor (BL) can be countered by Houndoom (BL), but that doesn't mean these 2 pokemon should be UU, rather then BL.
The BL's are (or should be) BL because they clearly outclass the rest of the UU pack (either by stats, movepool or both) and create an unbalanced metagame if allowed. The same happens when you allow Ubers into OU, they would clearly outclass most of OU and would make it unbalanced. I don't know who made the UU tier list but it was pretty decent before all these broken BLs got allowed.
Ok this might be a bit worded weird but yeah.
Also, can someone tell me why Steelix was allowed. Because it completely outclasses every other normal resist in UU and is basically a staple in every UU team. Unlike Aggron/Probopass, it can safely switch in most physical attacks, not even fearing Earthquake because it won't take too much damage. So basically it gets the huge benefits of being a steel type without risks at all. Unlike Omastar, Golem and Relicanth, Steelix has far more resistances and a much higher defense stat. UU really went down when Steelix was allowed. If it was allowed to counter Scyther and Absol, why not ban those instead of allowing Steelix?
In my opinion, smogon should ban broken stuff instead of allowing more in UU. These pokemon should all be banned for UU to be decent again:
Steelix
Clefable
Absol
Aerodactyl
Articuno
Drapion
Glaceon
Jynx
Kabutops
Leafeon
Miltank
Ninetales
Venusaur
Weezing
Sorry for the tl;dr rant and if I worded things weird. I dont think its needed but if it is I could list arguements why these pokemon should be banned. I hope people who regulate the tier lists atleast consider this (Probably not, but its worth the try)
Can you not speak if you don't know what you are talking about?
What are BL? BL are Pokemon deemed to strong for UU.
How did we determine these Pokemon? By arbitrary theorymon. No experience, just arbitrary theorymon.
Spare me your patronization please. I am not saying UU is flawed because I think it is flawed; I am clearly saying it is flawed because the method used to determine BL Pokemon was completely flawed.
Also, don't compare Ubers to this. Different situation.
What is BL currently was determined in a flawed manner.
What are BL? BL are Pokemon deemed to strong for UU.
How did we determine these Pokemon? By arbitrary theorymon. No experience, just arbitrary theorymon.
Spare me your patronization please. I am not saying UU is flawed because I think it is flawed; I am clearly saying it is flawed because the method used to determine BL Pokemon was completely flawed.
Also, don't compare Ubers to this. Different situation.
What is BL currently was determined in a flawed manner.