DPP Arena Trap (Dugtrio) [Live Tours 10/25, 10/30, 11/1]

Excal

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Hello everyone!

After SPL ended, a Dugtrio thread was made that did not gain much traction, with council members such as myself and BKC defending Dugtrio’s place in the metagame. However, the DPP council as a whole has shifted and we would like to hold a vote on Dugtrio (by extension Arena Trap) in the near future, with a second vote similar to DPP Latias and BW sleep. Before doing so, we wanted to hear some additional input from the community.

I’ll start off this thread by sharing my opinion on Dugtrio.

The main “problematic” pokemon in this tier are usually deemed to be Jirachi, Clefable, and Dugtrio. I think that right now the DPP meta is quite good, but there is definitely room for improvement and addressing some of DPP’s issues. After a lot of thought, I think that Dugtrio is the biggest issue here. On its own, it is not “broken”; however, it tremendously enables Jirachi and Clefable to the point where addressing them in the teambuilder is a massive headache. For example, the combination of Dugtrio and Bold Calm Mind Clefable has a very limited number of answers, as you cannot rely on grounded/trappable Pokemon like Heatran, Breloom, and Tyranitar alone to answer Clefable. In addition, Calm Mind Clefable compensates tremendously for many of Dugtrio’s defensive flaws by answering Dragon Dance Gyarados and handling Dragon Dance Dragonite in a pinch, even always surviving any of MixNite’s attacks from full. With the metagame taking a slower pace due to Latias’s reentry, there is significantly more defensive compensation for Dugtrio (via defensive Latias, Jirachi, Calm Mind Clefable, etc).

Heatran is one of the best breakers in DPP, and it is also the Pokemon that Dugtrio can most consistently trap. Heatran is the most secure answer to Jirachi, and it has several tools to threaten prominent defensive pieces like Clefable and Latias. By trapping Heatran with great consistency, Dugtrio is limiting the usage of the most consistent Jirachi answer and a Pokemon capable of combatting Calm Mind Clefable very nicely. Heatran, in my opinion, is an extremely good but very healthy Pokemon to have in the metagame. Without Dugtrio, Heatran will be incredible again but it will not be broken or problematic whatsoever, only benefitting the metagame by giving us more counterplay to Jirachi and Clefable.

It's worth mentioning that while Dugtrio cannot safely trap Choice Scarf Heatran, it is extremely uncommon and frankly not good right now, as Heatran strongly desires Leftovers to fortify itself against the likes of Jirachi and Latias.

So what are some counterarguments in favor of Dugtrio? I’ve seen several people cite Impish Jirachi as a grounded answer to Dugtrio + CM Clef, but actually Jirachi cannot beat Bold CM Clef reliably unless Leftovers have been removed. So, while it’s favored with 60% odds vs Dugtrio, it doesn’t need to be trapped necessarily for Clefable. Another interesting argument is that we “lose a counter” to Knock Off Clefable, which is very oppressive. While this has some merit, Knock Off Clefable can run Protect, which enables it to very consistently beat Dugtrio. In addition, it becomes easier to answer Knock Off Clefable without worrying about Dugtrio lurking in the back and having to tiptoe around it.

Dugtrio enabling many cheesy strategies and matchup fishes that take the game out of the player’s hands is only the tip of the iceberg. Overall, I think the biggest concerns I have with the current metagame are Jirachi, Clefable, and that we don’t have enough wallbreakers in the tier right now. Removing Dugtrio makes Jirachi and Clefable far more manageable while having pretty much no apparent drawbacks. In addition, it enables the use of great wallbreakers that Dugtrio severely limits. It lowers the potential for matchup wins via a U-turn into a surprise Dugtrio on Heatran/Tyranitar/other trappable Pokemon. Players will not be punished for using the best Pokemon in the tier to answer another one of the best Pokemon in the tier, emphasizing playing skill instead of matchup-fishing nonsense.

Also, just to clarify again, this vote will be on Arena Trap rather than just Dugtrio. With only Dugtrio gone, people would almost certainly use Diglett and maybe even Trapinch to exploit Arena Trap. While these Pokemon are terrible, they can still find ways to cheese the opponent (Diglett can still consistently trap Heatran and there is potential for gimmicky Trapinch setups via Trick Room and paraspreading). We do not want to make the same mistake that was made in BW, where Arena Trap had to be banned after only Dugtrio was banned.

Thanks for reading.
 
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I'm linking a post I made in the previous ROA thread because it still applies and therefore I don't think it necessary to reiterate those same points I raised in that post.
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/dugtrio.3661692/post-8405225

Most recently, I played a game against The Sprinkler and you can see for yourself what Dugtrio is capable of:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen4ou-520746

The first kill that Dug picked up was my Jirachi was not really within my control. Jirachi requires heavy defense investment in order to survive a CB Dug attack, and the cost of doing so is being unable to check pokemon that you should be able to, like Lucario.

The second kill that Dug picked up was a bit lucky since Heatran missed the Magma. However, one of my purposes for running Heatran was to be a good switch-in to Jirachi, and while at this stage of the game I would've had foreknowledge of possibly trying to avoid Dug catching Heatran on a U-turn by going to something like Rotom or Dragonite on the U-turn, it becomes very restrictive of my playing ability because I'm not able to use a Heatran for the purpose for which it has found its place in my team and my Heatran is capable of being an answer to Jirachi. The restriction in my playing ability is not because my opp is outplaying me.

The third kill that Dug picked up was something that you could consider to be risk-free. Latias' presence in the tier mandates most players to run a steel or TTar in an offensive team to take its dragon-stab moves, and other than Zong, everything else is susceptible to being trapped by Dug. While Dug may have failed to kill TTar, it did its job because my TTar is no longer going to be able to switch in if rocks are on field or Latias.
 
Thanks for making this thread and bringing this topic back on the table again.

I fully agree with what has been said already, I'll still write something about the whole thing:

I think Dugtrio adds nothing to the tier but ways to cheese through teams, and making some Pokemon (in particular Clefable, Jirachi and Latias) a lot more stronger than they should be. Dugtrio being able to trap all of Tyranitar, Heatran, Breloom, and even Infernape, really makes things more complex especially in the teambuilder where you can't 100% rely on those Pokemon to combat CM Clef and the goons. Hell, some teams are even using Dugtrio as a semi answer to revenge kill Gengar with CB Pursuit once it's been weakened a bit.

Heatran is probably the Pokemon that suffers the most from Dugtrio's presence, Heatran is incredibly healthy to DPP and we're really missing its presence and influence right now I feel. It's a phenomenal Pokemon with insane wallbreaking/stallbreaking potential that can fit on just about any team, but it is limited just due to the presence of Dugtrio that makes it a liability in matchups where it should shine. I got to the point where I struggle to bring it seriously in tournaments just because of how popular Dug + Clef is. I think Offense/Bulky Offense for example would strongly appreciate to have Heatran as an anti measure to Jirachi/Clef without being worried of getting trapped by Dugtrio.

You could say that Pokemon like DD Dragonite and DD Gyara can set up in the face of Dugtrio locked on Earthquake, but Bold CM Clef checks them both and can revenge kill them in one hit, so that argument isn't really valid anymore. Up to all levitaters/Dugtrio abusers, Gengar is probably the best one, but as I mentionned earlier, it can be played around + Dug can Pursuit it to finish the job, so it's kind of limited in a sense.

Now, I don't think Dug + Clef teams are invincible, and Pokemon like Scizor, Lucario and SD Empoleon for example I think are good against them. But I personally feel really restricted when building teams and trying to safely account for these teams and Dug strategies, which I believe is unhealthy.

There are a lot of replays that shows how strong Dugtrio can be, but I would like to emphasize on the U-turn + Dugtrio strategy, which I think is really dumb and takes away any control of the game for the opponent. I'll link back this replay from the past SPL that illustrates how stupid the thing is. Jirachi naturally lures in Heatran, and even steels like Magnezone, Metagross or opposing Jirachis, and can safely land a U-turn into Dugtrio without the opponent being able to do anything about it. In this scenario there's simply no counterplay to this strategy and you can't play around it/prevent it from not working.

I don't have anything else to add right now, hope that was clear
 
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Kevin Garrett

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My feelings on Dugtrio remain the same as they did earlier in the year. When you look at it on paper, it may seem ludicrous to get rid of this thing. However, there's no denying the metagame has some problems with competitive balance and this is the most conservative option to remedy the tier.
 

hellpowna

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Hi everyone and thanks for bringin back this thing again.
I agree with you all said about dugtrio; the main problem is not dugtrio, but the way how he "centralize" the tier and the building.
The status' tier is good, especially when latias came again in OU, but it forced everyone to use at least ttar or a steel(except zong) which are basically "bread" for the trio
Imo, The most important thing to argue with is "how your build is limited with the dug presence"?
a lot.
For example, In the most dpp tour i joined, i was forced to use shed shell tran , an item i should have never used on heatran that basically "useless" and "limitating" coz of dug.
As you guys well said, heatran is so healthy for the tier, not only because its the best amswer to jirachi, but even for his ability of stallbreaking and a great support overall.
I would like to start building teams with any "anibition" and by the way without dug would be better
 

Excal

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Posting on behalf of Vay:

Hello, here are my thoughts on Dugtrio:

1) Dug & Clef

Dugtrio + Calm mind clefable is a good combo (yep). Dugtrio kills grounded pokemons that annoy clefable (jirachi, tyranitar, heatran) in the purpose of making it invincible. "And what about non grounded pokemons, or mons that resist earthquake ?" Well, it happens that clefable runs the powerful boltbeam coverage when using the calm mind set, so all these mons will meet a tragic end from clefable attacks. Gyarados ? Thunderbolt. Gliscor ? Ice beam. Breloom ? Oh wait, dugtrio has aerial ace specifically for that guy. One of dugtrio's main flaw, as i was frenquently told, is that it's easy to abuse after a kill, by using a flying dragon dancer for example, however many players that use dugtrio are fully aware of it while making their team and have answers to patch this weakness, for example bold latias or milotic can handle gyarados, bronzong or skarmory can handle dragonite, but another interesting is that CM clefable itself has the tools to mitigate the efficiency of +1 gyarados/dragonite : With a bold nature, a max investment, and a boltbeam coverage, you can survive +1 waterfall or even +1 outrage and retaliate with the appropried 4 times effective move :

+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 289-342 (73.3 - 86.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Gyarados Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 184-217 (46.7 - 55%) -- 14.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

4 SpA Clefable Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados: 240-284 (72.5 - 85.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Clefable Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dragonite: 240-284 (74.3 - 87.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

This isnt an ohko, but at worse, you dealt a ton of damage to a threat and made it unable to switch out and come back later, and if you managed to keep your rocks up, you traded a CM clef for their DD guy. Of course clef will be as good as dead if it receives a +1 outrage in the face, but thats worth it if you want to preserve another pokemon so you can win with it. Clefable can act as an emergency answer to these two DD guys that'll give you flexibility in your choices in game instead of just being a fat wincon for lategame if the situation calls for it

2) "Ok i got it, but why should it be banned tho ?"

The reasons listed in the original post are fine by me to be honest, and i dont really see anything relevant that hasnt been mentionned yet

3) "But dugtrio brings diversity !!!"

No. In your typical dugtrio team, you will see dugtrio (duh) and a late game wincondition that dugtrio is supposed to make invincible, like i mentionned in 1) with CM clefable, except that you could also see stuff like cresselia, Calm mind latias, agility zapdos, gastrodon, or all kind of pokemons who all profit from dugtrio's action in one way or another. Well, technically several mons are involved, but it doesnt change the fact that you always end up using "Dugtrio + Dugtrio abusing wincondition", which is kind of not diverse at all. Not to mention that "this vast pool of dugtrio abusers" will just end up being "clefable" 80% of the time (if not more), i mean, you have a decent bulk, excellent offensive coverage that is nearly invincible paired with a dugtrio (i said nearly), only one weakness, calm mind, a reliable recovery move, and nothing less than a residual damage immunity. So much for diversity.

4) "This thing aint no arceus cmon lmao" (inspired from true facts)

Thats indeed correct, dugtrio is not arceus. If dugtrio does not deserve to be uber because its not arceus, i'd like to propose that we drop Kyogre, Manaphy, Darkrai, Giratina-Origin, Latios and the Soul Dew to overused because i like these pokemons, and on top of that they aren't arceus either ^-^ (gtfo)
 
I'm heavily in favor of a Dugtrio / Arena Trap test at this point in time.

It traps too many pokemon and cb lock isn't abusable enough, which leaves the tier in a very restricted state. It has poor bulk but it either comes in from uturns or its partners can afford to be sacked to let it in safely. I don't think clef or rachi bans would help the tier at all either. In fact, banning dug makes those mons easier to deal with because of the greater options and flexibility you have in answering them. I don't wanna rehash too much of what was said above but I'm in agreement with most of it and I really think DPP can be great if this ban happens.
 

august

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i was opposed to an arena trap ban for a long time, and recently i have come to the realization that it was for the wrong reasons. to me, dugtrio was helping to keep problematic pokemon like jirachi and support clefable from taking over games, as they have a tendency to do. i thought of dugtrio as a type of "playmaker" pokemon that could get in and punish these mons, and swing the momentum of games and break stalemates. in that sense, i don't think that i was necessarily wrong - but if you look at common dugtrio partners, jirachi and clefable are among the most common. in particular, phys def wish jirachi and bold calm mind clefable are both very common partners for their ability to be "catch all" checks to mons that come in looking to punish an eq-locked dugtrio. traditionally, "catch all" pokemon like clefable (and previously blissey) have been beaten by simultaneous pressure from different mons, and lure sets. among the best of these happens to be heatran, who can run sets like magma storm + boom, magma storm + taunt, and is generally a highpower special attacker. abr and soulwind have even been using specially defensive explosion sets to lure clefable into a sense of false security when switching in. these lure sets work much less often when an opponent can simply sacrifice something and get a clean trap with dugtrio. dugtrio is also frequently a key enabler of "cheese" strategies, that look to eliminate key pieces (and there are a TON, heatran/jirachi/tyranitar/breloom to name a few) and win with uncontested stat uppers - whether they be offensive (double trap + cm latias/cress types of teams) or defensive (skarmory + cm clefable). i think that dugtrio leads to too high of a number of non-games/matchup wins, and provides an incredible strain on team building. in particular, heatran, a historic dpp powerhouse and even one of the faces of dpp, is seeing all time low usage. dpp has had quite a few usage surges since falling from main generation, and i was always confident that the metagame would adapt. this is the first time that i do not believe that it can adapt to a point where the metagame is healthy again.

tldr: i support an arena trap ban, and i think that it will lead to a healthy dpp metagame
 

Finchinator

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On behalf of The Sprinkler:
The Sprinkler said:
Hi, The Sprinkler here wanting to add some input about Dugtrio in the meta. For me, I definitely believe Dugtrio is the biggest problem in the meta. Threats like Zapdos, Latias, Clefable, Jirachi, Heatran, and among a few others benefit greatly from Tyranitar/Breloom/Jirachi/Heatran being removed. That's not even mentioning things like Skarmory, wish protect Jirachi benefitting from Magnezone being gone, and I'm sure there's other examples beyond those. The point is, Zapdos or Jirachi etc can force a lot of bad positioning, where your best switchin is like a Heatran or Tar, and all of a sudden you are forced to choose between taking a para or huge damage, or getting trapped and automatically killed by Dug right away.

It can be a huge problem right off the bat in a game, to constantly worry about getting 1-3 guys killed depending on the team. It's not like you have to outplay that hard to click uturn vs obvious switchins. Almost every team has as least one Duggable dude. Breakers like Loom etc are really scary to want to even use on a team. You don't want your best Clefable answer to be so easily trapped, while also not overlapping Loom's weaknesses. A lot of people have been using Machamp for Breloom's role to deal with Clef. Banning Dug will actually enable a lot more threats in the meta to be successful and not be afraid of just losing multiple mons to dug. Tyranitar will play a much bigger role in being the tank its known for, and being able to check multiple threats throughout the game without being dugged and abused by lati later.

I think ironically eliminating the ability to get quick auto kills, we will see a more offensive meta where threats like Heatran, Breloom, and the likes can really start to shine again. There will be more variety and usage of Heatran most notably I think like Excal said, since it can be an amazing breaker and Jirachi check with taunt and toxic for clef and waters/lati. I don't think it's competitive to be able to have low risk uturns vs numerous things with Zapdos/Jirachi and be able to pick off a large fraction of the game, which only increases when things are around half health or even slightly/if at all chipped like roserade which isn't even a ground weak.

Zapdos has free uturns vs things such as flygon/skarm/waters and lets in dug on the heatrans/tars/or even roserade that thinks its safe, jirachi uturns on heatran and zone. Of course there are other mons that can get big hits on a large portion of the game, however the difference is dugtrio gets these kills with very low risk in a lot of situations, and even if the risk gets higher the reward seems absurdly high and uncompetitive.

In conclusion, even beyond the fact Dugtrio enables so much defensively and makes this a slow matchup oriented meta, Dugtrio gets a lot of free kills with low risk a lot of the time. I concur with all of the other guys here and think it should get banned.
 

shade

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not opposing, just a couple of quick questions for the council / whoever from a smogon boomer who loves playing dpp but doesn't pay attention to tiering policy:

- lets face it this ban is happening, how will it be determined if it was a success?
- this is a huge change to the meta so it will need to settle, is there any likely timeframe for review? is it even possible to put a timeframe on this?
- is there scope for reintroduction if banning dugtrio has no effect on cm clef being the best wincon in the tier, support clef being the most annoying mon in the tier and jirachi being jirachi?
 

Hogg

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Yep, Tomahawk is absolutely correct. Quoting myself from the Adv sand veil thread, since it's relevant here:

Lower tiers in old gens are locked per a policy from a couple of years ago (I'll link when not on mobile), so they would not be impacted by this decision. Gligar and Sandslash would remain legal in UU, as would Cacturne in NU if this moved forward.
(I actually think Dugtrio is pretty dumb in DPP UU too but that's irrelevant here, banning it in DPP OU wouldn't also automatically ban it in DPP UU per current policy.)
 

Excal

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- lets face it this ban is happening, how will it be determined if it was a success?
- this is a huge change to the meta so it will need to settle, is there any likely timeframe for review? is it even possible to put a timeframe on this?
- is there scope for reintroduction if banning dugtrio has no effect on cm clef being the best wincon in the tier, support clef being the most annoying mon in the tier and jirachi being jirachi?
If Arena Trap were to be banned, we plan on having a second vote after SPL to evaluate if its lack of presence in the metagame has had a positive effect on DPP. So that's around a few months after the initial vote takes place, similar to DPP Latias and BW sleep. I think that addresses all 3 questions, as by the end of SPL we will definitely know if banning Arena Trap has had those effects on Clefable and Jirachi; if the community keeps Arena Trap banned after several months of high level play, then the ban will be considered a success.

Thanks so much everyone for posting your thoughts so far on Arena Trap and Dugtrio. There has been a lot of support for this and we wouldn't be able to move forward without it, so it's much appreciated! The council is currently working on preparations to move onto the next stage, so we'd like to open this thread up for any additional thoughts and questions.
 

Excal

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- Live Tournaments and Initial Voting Requirements for Arena Trap Vote -

Hello everyone, the council has finished preparations and we are planning to hold a vote to ban Arena Trap after the end of next weekend. While the voting pool is almost entirely created from official tournament results, we wanted to give others with an interest in DPP the chance to gain voting eligibility. We will hold three live tournaments and we will take the two highest-placing participants from each tournament who are unable to vote under the initial voting requirements. Anyone can join any of these tournaments, even if you are already qualified to vote. Have fun everyone!

---

(Note: scheduled times are worked around Smogon Tour 30)

- Date: Sunday October 25th
- Time: 5 PM GMT-4
- Host: august

- Date: Friday October 30th
- Time: 2 PM GMT-4
- Host: kjdaas

- Date: Sunday November 1st
- Time: 5 PM GMT-5
- Host: Emeral

Remember to carefully read the rules and how to sign-up. The thread will be posted in the Live Tournament section! The tour will take place on smogtours.psim.us; if you want to be voiced on the server, read this thread.

It will probably last between 1 and 3 hours depending on number of participants, so make sure you will be available for the duration of the tour when you consider to join. Some replays from the tournaments will be posted in this thread afterwards (semifinals and beyond).

If you want an idea as to how to sign up for Live Tours, check the Smogon Tour subforum and the first LST thread.

---

Here is the criteria for initial voting requirements:
  • DPP Cup V & DPP Cup VI Top 8
  • 5 or more games and 50% or more wins in SPL X or SPL XI
  • 3 or more games and 50% or more wins in WCoP 2019
  • Past Gen Championship 2019 Top 16
  • Past Gen Championship 2020 Top 16 on October 23, 2020
DPP Cup V Top 8: BKC, Lavos, BIHI, zugubu royale, ima, Altina, Pohjis, Ultraballz
DPP Cup VI Top 8: SoulWind, roystopror, ABR, ZoroDark, Heroic Troller, rozes, baddummy, Gilbert arenas
SPL X: Jimmy Turtwig, GaryTheGengar, Malekith, DeepBlueC, roscoe, ToF
SPL XI: The Grand Babido, ToF, BIHI, Excal, shawyu 1313, Tamahome, Emeral
WCoP 2019: Lycans, Hyogafodex, Philip7086, august, Fakes, TonyFlygon, DeepBlueC, Vay, SOMALIA, Groudon
Past Gen Championship 2019 (New Voters Only): Marshall.Law, Finchinator, SFG, Sharow, snøfall, Honor
Past Gen Championship 2020 (New Voters Only): Triangles, Lucix, frisoeva, hellpowna, Christos21, eden, Pheo', Winterains

Unique voters: BKC, BIHI, zugubu royale, ima, Altina, Pohjis, UltraBallz, SoulWind, roystopror, ABR, ZoroDark, Heroic Troller, rozes, baddummy, Gilbert arenas, Jimmy Turtwig, GaryTheGengar, Malekith, DeepBlueC, roscoe, ToF, The Grand Babido, Excal, shawyu 1313, Tamahome, Emeral, Lycans, Hyogafodex, Philip7086, august, Fakes, TonyFlygon, Vay, SOMALIA, Groudon, Marshall.Law, Finchinator, SFG, Sharow, snøfall, Honor, Triangles, Lucix, frisoeva, hellpowna, Christos21, eden, Pheo', Winterains (49 total)

---

Last but not least, thank you again to everyone for the contributions in this thread and for supporting the Arena Trap vote.

(Credit to Jimmy Turtwig's post for parts of this post)
 
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