DPP Jirachi (Full Revamp)

cim

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Since it's locked in Tyranitar can safely come in on a Jirachi with prediction / one move used.

Suicune with Roar is a counter, should be listed. Can't you CM once against the Life Orb set and it won't break your Sub, or do you need two? I was under the impression that the (faster) Jirachi could CM a few times and stall it with Sub / LO recoil.
 
way to be an ass Chris is me :b

how on earth Zapdos doesn't wall it? It can Roar you ALL day or just Heat Wave you until you HP is low and THEN Roar you. Or Just Heat Wave till you die if it is an offensive one.
may I remind you, Obi's team isn't the only stall team that exists. Zapdos is an awesome phazer in this kind of teams, and is present in some other famous teams too (ipl?????). +1 Psychic 2HKOes any Zapdos with SR by the way.

the thing about Swampert is that you would win one on one against the Curse/Resttalk/WF Pert every time if he swiched on you, but with Flash Cannon you'll never do that. A +1 Psychic can do 50% to MixPert by the way, so if you CM on the switch you could beat a weakened one insted of being EQd do death.

Suicune: a CRITICAL HIT Flash Cannon (on 252 HP Bold Cune), when both are at +6: 41.90% - 49.38%. Good luck. Suicune also has Rest/Pressure and you don't have any recovery. It can also Roar you if he doesn't have Sleep Talk and win the game there.

yeah, Moltres was kinda a pokemon I just thought, but you're losing anyway without Thunderbolt. When the SR test starts he'll be useful.

so, you'll lose to all those pokes just to beat 2, which could be solved easily by using Dugtrio as mentioned before. Ok then. Flash Cannon + HP Ground shouldn't really be the MAIN option.

you also ignored this:
the anti-lead in my opinion should have Fire Punch slashed with SR, since a lot of things learn SR and it isn't obligatory on the set. Fire Punch on the other hand, gives more insurance against Magnezone, Lucario and Scizor. Jirachi is an awesome revenge killer against the last two even without Scarf.
which had nothing to do with CM Jirachi, but even then you refused to at least give an answer. Way to go.
 

cim

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way to be an ass Chris is me :b
How is responding to criticism being an ass? If there was excessive flaming a mod will infract me, but there was not.

how on earth Zapdos doesn't wall it? It can Roar you ALL day or just Heat Wave you until you HP is low and THEN Roar you. Or Just Heat Wave till you die if it is an offensive one.
Heat Wave misses. Roar is not a common move on Zapdos. Jirachi can set up on it without Roar, usually, as it can Sub on the switch, CM, then CM again or Sub.

may I remind you, Obi's team isn't the only stall team that exists. Zapdos is an awesome phazer in this kind of teams, and is present in some other famous teams too (ipl?????). +1 Psychic 2HKOes any Zapdos with SR by the way.
Oh, silly me. I must have thought there was only one kind of stall team and thus didn't even list Psychic as an option. I'm that dumb.

the thing about Swampert is that you would win one on one against the Curse/Resttalk/WF Pert every time if he swiched on you, but with Flash Cannon you'll never do that. A +1 Psychic can do 50% to MixPert by the way, so if you CM on the switch you could beat a weakened one insted of being EQd do death.
You'll still, you know, be KOed by that Earthquake they used on the first turn, or at least take major damage. No one will dispute that. CM Jirachi cannot beat Roar Swampert without weakening it or losing most of its health in any case, so....?

RestTalk Waterfall pert couldn't really be set up on before either...

Suicune: a CRITICAL HIT Flash Cannon (on 252 HP Bold Cune), when both are at +6: 41.90% - 49.38%. Good luck. Suicune also has Rest/Pressure and you don't have any recovery. It can also Roar you if he doesn't have Sleep Talk and win the game there.
"if both are at +6" and "critical hit" gives me some hint that you may not understand that CHs ignore stat boosts, only drops. Also HP Ground would do more.

I ran the calc and you're completely off, so if you're going to treat me like a complete idiot and flame me while claiming i'm being and ass and giving me stupid shit while.... yeah, at least learn the fundamental basics of a critical hit and how it works. This is basic Pokémon mechanics.

yeah, Moltres was kinda a pokemon I just thought, but you're losing anyway without Thunderbolt. When the SR test starts he'll be useful.
I'm not making sets for metagames that don't exist.

so, you'll lose to all those pokes just to beat 2, which could be solved easily by using Dugtrio as mentioned before. Ok then. Flash Cannon + HP Ground shouldn't really be the MAIN option.
Except you lose to all of those pokes just to beat almost all

you also ignored this:
which had nothing to do with CM Jirachi, but even then you refused to at least give an answer. Way to go.
If you're going to call me an ass at least don't be uncivil yourself. Oh, I didn't respond to your post, it must mean I'm a failure at life and you know better than me. The kind of attitude you've been giving me in this post won't get you anywhere.

No, really, you're treating me as if I'm some delusional idiot who has no experience with Pokémon ("being an ass" as you like to call it) while calling me out for being an ass and assuming because I ignored one sentence on the set that i'm not even working on that I'm some kind of failure that necessitates a "way to go" sarcastic bullshit comment.
 
I'm still going to ask you guys to seriously reconsider. Sulphur brought up a good point about Swampert that I didn't even think of, who also commonly carries Roar, and Earthquake... and with no recovery won't appreciate taking psychics all day.

Mainly the fact of the matter is, Psychic + Thunderbolt has trouble against Tyranitar, and somewhat Heatran (as again, 20% paralysis isn't terrible). What do those two pokemon have in common? They are easily disposed of by several common OU pokemon you can put on your team like Dugtrio. But also, Gyarados, Rhyperior, Flygon, Suicune, Vaporeon, Machamp, Hariyama etc.... all beat these pokemon handily and are on every OU team in one way or another. which is what you look for in a sweeper.

Flash Cannon / HP Ground is walled by a ton of things that are actually MORE difficult to get around such as Swampert, Suicune, Skarmory, Zapdos, Gyarados, and Bronzong. No common single pokemon can remove all of these threats for you the same way they can for Psychic / Thunderbolt. It also like I said before makes Jirachi less able to dismantle a stall team, which he is still pretty good at since the (still rare) perish song Celebi is pretty much the only thing keeping it from shitting all up and down most stall teams.
 
well, I used http://libelldra.com/competitive/damage/ and with the "Critial Hit" box checked, I only got those numbers, and I'm pretty sure that happens on shoddy since in one of my experiences with CM Jirachi vs. CM Cress, I CHed her only to do like 40%.

about the last part, you said I didn't think my post through and wouldn't bother with the rest... so yeah, you gave the idea that my ENTIRE post was like that (in your opinion) and decided to ignore the last part even without reading. So, I'm sorry if I misunderstood you.

I won't bother with the rest since I guess this discution won't really change anything. A lot of people said that too and maybe it's better to leave that way.

I'm sorry if I offended you, but you were kinda rude too =\
 
Well, it could be dropped as an argument but the goal of the analysis is to best provide users with competitive and most effective strategies. I think they will find it much harder to use a Flash Cannon / HP Ground Jirachi because of reasons I already mentioned than using a Psychic / Thunderbolt Jirachi.
 

cim

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well, I used http://libelldra.com/competitive/damage/ and with the "Critial Hit" box checked, I only got those numbers, and I'm pretty sure that happens on shoddy since in one of my experiences with CM Jirachi vs. CM Cress, I CHed her only to do like 40%.
I just ran the calc and got like 80-90%. I think that the CH box on the calc doesn't ignore the stat boost box of the defense column.

RaikouLover, go play with Flash Cannon Jirachi for a bit.

Just to back this up, I've probably used Jirachi more than anyone else in C&C. I've used him more than Medicham and Empoleon combined, Pokémon people consider me "experts" on. All of the sets I am writing I have used for at least 20 battles (with the exception of DS, that was like 15), so do think carefully before saying I'm wrong. Feel free to (what are threads for then?), but SDS and I know our shit.
 

Caelum

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Alright let's shut up about Flash Cannon / HP Ground vs. Psychic / Thunderbolt. The argument is going around and around and around pointlessly. It's obviously not going anywhere. darkie / myself / GS / whoever else on SS has ultimate discretion when we upload this so we'll figure it out at the appropriate time and consider all the arguments in this thread. Everyone just keeps posting the same points over and over again so there's not point continuing the discussion. I'm going to ask that unless you have a substantially different point on the matter, don't bother posting. Surely there must be something else to discuss. I understand it is a controversial change but you guys just keep repeating yourself. Either come up with new reasoning or stop going back and forth.
 
well, talking about other stuff now...
Question: Why the Uber Support was left out ? It's still effective (I use it).

also, why is the "Support" set so low? I mean, pure Specs/Band/Scarf sets are extremelly rare.
the order should be, in my opinion: maintain the first 3, Support set, Uber Support and the rest could stay as it is.
Not that this is extremely important, but I've seen people say that the order of sets should be the most commom/effective first.

still about the "Support" set, those EVs are really outdated. All this speed doesn't accomplish anything.
240 HP / 76 Def / 160 SpD / 32 Spe as sugested by the current EVs section is a much better one, as Jirachi is a fine Gengar counter and can be a nice Latias/Latios check taking Draco Meteor/Surf just fine.

I'd like to drop Thunderwave too and put Thunder as a slash instead. Thunder has better potential, like not being walled by Skamory and actually doing something against Gyarados and other bulky waters, especially if you choose Zen Headbutt and hax them a bit.
Of course it misses, but Jirachi can afford it and Thunder has the same accuracy as Focus Blast which everyone uses. It's funny to use it against Rain teams too lol.
Thunderwave is more of an other option, as I've particulary never saw a T-Waving Jirachi and abusing Serene Grace is always better.

anyway, just like to point out that I've used all those sets too, as Jirachi is my fav poke, and what I'm posting here isn't just theorymon.

oh and, you forgot to put spaces between slashes on the "Physical Choice" set.
 

cim

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Lati twins are not (yet) OU.

Uber Support will be re-added in pending confirmation from someone who plays Ubers. Jibaku?

The EVs on the set will probably be shifted from their current anti-Heracross state. Jirachi will still be speedy though.

Thunder isn't that good on the Support set as it's not the kind of set that gives a damn about Skarmory. It Wishes and runs away. Walls don't care about being walled.

I agree about Thunder Wave not being the best option, but IMO Thunder isn't better. Not because "It has Serene Grace", but because it's a Ground type magnet.

I've used Jirachi for over 18 months, by the way. Thanks for the tips and I'll get to SDS.
 
Lati twins are not (yet) OU.
It still can switch into Mence's DM, Gengar and Togekiss for example. The Latibros are just a bonus.

Uber Support will be re-added in pending confirmation from someone who plays Ubers. Jibaku?
I do play ubers ocasionally and I have 2 accounts on the ladderboard that use that Jirachi (one #7 and another #11 for what's worth), and I can tell you that it works.

The EVs on the set will probably be shifted from their current anti-Heracross state. Jirachi will still be speedy though.
why be speedy with that set? Flinch Lucario with Iron Head till he dies? Wish and then die? Pray to an 40% Zen Hadbutt flinch to happen?
other than Lucario that you can't do much, I can't see any reason to use speed EVs.

Thunder isn't that good on the Support set as it's not the kind of set that gives a damn about Skarmory. It Wishes and runs away. Walls don't care about being walled.
it's not the fact of being walled, it's the fact that you are being Spikes setup fodder.

I agree about Thunder Wave not being the best option, but IMO Thunder isn't better. Not because "It has Serene Grace", but because it's a Ground type magnet.
How isn't Thunderwave less of a Ground type magnet? Thunder at least acomplishes more stuff.

I've used Jirachi for over 18 months, by the way. Thanks for the tips and I'll get to SDS.
I could say the same, except that I only play competitive pokemon for like a year. But not a short time I would say.

thank you for your time.
 

cim

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Well, you haven't played long enough to know that Psychic Jirachi can't beat Swampert without taking major damage from EQ, or that CHs ignore stat drops, so I'm not exactly taking your advice blindly based on an experience argument. Not like I would anyway.

I do play ubers ocasionally and I have 2 accounts on the ladderboard that use that Jirachi (one #7 and another #11 for what's worth), and I can tell you that it works.
Sorry, I meant someone else. Forgot the word. After all, MTI uses Psycho Shift cress and we're not adding that, I like to get confirmation from 2 people.

why be speedy with that set? Flinch Lucario with Iron Head till he dies? Wish and then die? Pray to an 40% Zen Hadbutt flinch to happen?
other than Lucario that you can't do much, I can't see any reason to use speed EVs.
Jirachi's quick U-Turn is one of his best qualities. There's a use of Speed EVs for you. Not to mention Iron Head's flinch.

it's not the fact of being walled, it's the fact that you are being Spikes setup fodder.
I'd think a move that misses 30% of the time wouldn't be the best answer to that. It's not like Skarmory's that scary or omnipresent anyway. I'll talk to SDS about it. THough honestly you could just U-Turn to Magnezone or whatever.

How isn't Thunderwave less of a Ground type magnet? Thunder at least acomplishes more stuff.
I was talking about Thunder Wave at the time? Go read it again. Thunder paralyzes less than half of the time and does jack shit 30% of it.

Got any more?
 
yeah sure, you also ignored that part about Cursepert that Psychic Jirachi can win. And I talked about a weakned MixPert that time, not staying on a full HP one. Please don't put words on my mouth.

Crits didn't work that way sometime ago. Not to mention that, haven't you ever made any mistakes?

The uber set was there before, so I guess that proves that people used it and it was effective. I understand you though, except the part where you removed it in the first place. But oh well.

As I said, what will you flinch? People caught on and use max speed Mence. Same as offensive Zapdos. You'll only outspeed Lucario (gl flinching him till he dies). What pokemon will you flinch that you already don't outspeed regardless? Not to mention you have Body Slam/Thunderwave/Thunder on the set to make all those speed EVs useless.

I thought U-turn is more of an scouting move? Or to Jirachi take the hit and the next pokemon make full use of Wish/entering without taking damage? And what would a fast U-turn do? It is the same as switching out, and the damage is negligible most of the time (except against Celebi/Tyranitar which speed is useless anyway).

about T-wave, yes you were talking about it. You said T-wave is better than Thunder with a reason that applies exactly to both.
Thunder has almost the same chance as Body Slam to paralyse factoring accuracy. I could say the same thing about Body Slam doing jack shit when it doesn't paralyse.
 

cim

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yeah sure, you also ignored that part about Cursepert that Psychic Jirachi can win. And I talked about a weakned MixPert that time, not staying on a full HP one. Please don't put words on my mouth.
I searched above and saw no mention of the word "weakened".

Crits didn't work that way sometime ago. Not to mention that, haven't you ever made any mistakes?
You're right. In RBY, crits ignored boosts too. Otherwise it's always worked that way. Regardless the way you thought they worked did not coincide with how they worked in any generation.

I've made mistakes, but it's been awhile since I've made one while calling someone an idiot and mocking them.

The uber set was there before, so I guess that proves that people used it and it was effective. I understand you though, except the part where you removed it in the first place. But oh well.
Again, I've never used the set and don't object to reading it (and i probably will even if no one comes and says "yeah").

As I said, what will you flinch? People caught on and use max speed Mence. Same as offensive Zapdos. You'll only outspeed Lucario (gl flinching him till he dies). What pokemon will you flinch that you already don't outspeed regardless? Not to mention you have Body Slam/Thunderwave/Thunder on the set to make all those speed EVs useless.
Anything from 308 Speed down. This includes Salamence that aren't Jolly, anything in the massive 100 Speed group, and everything slower. If you don't think that's a lot of targets I direct you to the strategy pokedex.

I thought U-turn is more of an scouting move? Or to Jirachi take the hit and the next pokemon make full use of Wish/entering without taking damage? And what would a fast U-turn do? It is the same as switching out, and the damage is negligible most of the time (except against Celebi/Tyranitar which speed is useless anyway).
Yup, fast U-turn is useless. That's why Choice Scarf Flygon, Choice Band Infernape, and no Celebi ever carries it...

It allows you to get in a light hit while switching. If they kept, say, a Mamoswine in, you don't have to make Jirachi eat an Earthquake as you send in what you want to heal. If they switched in something that counters what you want to heal, you can take appropriate action.

about T-wave, yes you were talking about it. You said T-wave is better than Thunder with a reason that applies exactly to both.
Thunder has almost the same chance as Body Slam to paralyse factoring accuracy. I could say the same thing about Body Slam doing jack shit when it doesn't paralyse.
No, I wasn't?

Body Slam does damage 100% of the time and paralyzes 60% of the time. Thunder does damage 70% of the time and paralyzes 42% of it.

I was, indeed, criticizing Thunder Wave. I should know, I made the post.
 

beej

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Edit: messed up here

Correct me if I'm missing something here, but I would think that reaching 300 Speed on Scarf Jirachi is enough, as it outspeeds neutral natured 252 Speed Salamence (this would take 148 EVs). 308 Speed would be for Jolly Lucario and Timid Porygon-Z I suppose? I personally don't think that's all too useful, and if you don't have Fire Punch for Lucario you're going to have a very tough time killing it anyway.
 

Seven Deadly Sins

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The lack of the Uber Support set was probably my fault. When I did the initial writeup, I only took OU into account. I'll take a look at the current Uber Support set and see if it needs any fixing.

EDIT: Is 8 HP really worth NEVER outspeeding Timid Porygon-Z and Jolly Lucario? Timid Porygon-Z has a 70% chance of being 2KOed by Jolly Iron Head Jirachi, 100% with SR, meaning you have a 60% chance to kill Scarfed Porygon-Z without it ever getting a hit off on you, and even so, it fails to OHKO given that it has no Super-Effective moves against Jirachi and has to resort to neutral Thunderbolt. Iron Head is a 4KO on Lucario, but that's still a roughly 15% chance of beating it, as well as the fact that you can U-turn out of it to a counter. Basically, 8 Speed is worth more than 8 HP 100% of the time.
 
A +1 Psychic can do 50% to MixPert by the way, so if you CM on the switch you could beat a weakened one
that was what I said.

The only pokemon worth noting are fast Gliscor (which you would need more than 308), Mamoswine and Heracross. The others resist Iron Head/you outspeed anyway or will have to risk the speed tie.
go look at the new Mence analysis. Not to mention, they have Dragon Dance and won't let you flinch them. Defensive Zapdos you won't need all that speed. Most Celebi don't run more than 32 speed evs. Same as Tentacruel.
There's your 100 speed group right there. And I thought Body Slam/T-wave/Thunder would paralyse all of them making (again) your speed evs not so valuable?

About U-turn, I never said fast U-turn is useless, just in the case of this Jirachi which is supporting the team. The slow U-turn is more valuable since the set is called "Support". If the opponent swiches, you'll still be scouting and will be able to act accordingly.

Body Slam damage is almost zero, please. Thunder's damage is actually helpful depending on the target
 

cim

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It's not almost zero. Thunder misses and sucks. End of discussion, really, we're not getting anywhere. Thunder misses.
 
HP Fighting

Ok, don't kill me for bringing this up again, but what about HP Fighting and Psychic for the first set (Sub-CM)?

Psychic keeps your coverage on Zapdos, Swampert, and Rotom-H all the same, and doesn't leave you struggling (as much) against Gyarados and Suicune. HP fighting still deals with TTar, Heatran and (to an extent) Magnazone and Mamoswine.

Following the method you described in the set comments, 252/4 Tyranitar is taking (36.63% - 43.56%) from a +0 HP Fight and then (54.46% - 64.36%) from +1 Later on. Taken down with SR out

Heatran, depending on Naive vs Modest, is getting (35.80% - 42.59%) or (32.10% - 38.27%) by +0, then (53.70% - 63.58%) or (48.77% - 57.41%)
the following turn from a +1 HP Fighting. Taken Down with SR out

After a Calm Mind, Magnazone takes (55.56% - 65.43%) from HP Fighting. I assume it's outsped, and if it can't OHKO with Thunderbolt, it's Taken out without SR.

I would write more, but I'm being called downstairs to go out. Please consider my point.

=)
 

cim

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Psychic and HP Fighting sounds okay at first, but in reality it kind of sucks. Mainly, you get walled by Celebi still, but also get entirely shut down by Spiritomb, Cresselia, and barely do more to Tyranitar. I ran it a few moths ago and had problems, and I don't think enough has changed to make it good, but I guess I'll give it a try soon.
 
[SET]

<p>Choiced sets have a few more notable counters. The Physical Choice set's biggest counter is Magnezone, which resists its entire moveset barring Fire Punch, traps it, and kills it. Bulky Water-types in general are very effective at beating Physical Jirachi variance, but fear switching into Thunderpunch. Swampert takes it one step further by boasting an immunity to Thunderpunch, thus resisting the entire moveset with the exception of Zen Headbutt and U-turn. Hippowdon lacks the Fire and Steel resists, but its gargantuan physical defense and access to reliable healing lets it shrug off Jirachi's blows easily. Skarmory resists Iron Head, Zen Headbutt, and U-turn, and can easily heal off damage, though swapping into Banded Fire Punch and Thunderpunch can be hazardous. Tyranitar once again boasts excellent physical durability and immunity to Zen Headbutt, though it fears Iron Head and U-Turn. Heatran resists everything Jirachi can throw at it besides a neutral Thunderpunch, and threatens with STAB Fire Blast. Metagross also boasts high physical durability, though it fears Fire Punch. Gyarados also resists Fire Punch, Iron Head, and U-turn, but fears Thunderpunch.</p>

There should be a mention here that anything switching into jirachi has the risking chance of being burned, frozen, paralyzed or flinched. Through this jirachi can beat its physical counters and it is this that makes the choice set fearsome to play against. Or something along those lines.

Cresselia also deserves mention as a solid counter and so does jirachi who can counter itself oddly.
 

Seven Deadly Sins

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Serene Grace aside, I generally tend not to put in off-hand 20% occurrences in Counters. I might make note of it somewhere, but it's like saying that Gyarados isn't a Heatran counter because Fire Blast might burn it. 20% isn't much more notable than 10%, and extreme luck doesn't magically make a counter not a counter. I will mention Cress as a general counter, though.

Also, fix your Quote tags.
 

cim

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Cresselia is definitely not a counter to either Calm Mind set, or any Support set, just the Choice item sets.
 

maddog

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I use Thunder on CM Jirachi, and it works like a charm against threats like Heatran who switch into Jirachi all day long, while still maintaining the decent coverage that Psychic/ Electric has. While the 75% accuracy is offputting, the 60% paralysis rate certainly isn't. The extra power comes in handy when you are trying to face up against Heatran and Tyranitar, and if you miss, well, that's why you should have a Sub up. It is also useful on the supporter too, although it requires a negative speed nature to be too effective. And I don't mind the missing that Thunder can have because the risk can often be worth the payoff. Then again, this is coming from the person who uses DynamicPunch on Jirachi (me), so take this as you will. I think I've talked to you about DynamicPunch before Chris ^^

Mention it in set comments, oo, or whatever is fine with me. It doesn't really suck though.

EDIT: Oh, I can write up Dual Screen if you want me to.
 

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