Gen 4 DPP LC Viability Rankings

GOAO

Tournament Banned
Approved by Mambo
Preliminary DPP LC Viability Rankings
Welcome to the DPP LC viability ranking project. In this project, we will "tier" every Pokemon based on usefulness. An initial tier list has already been made; if you think something should be moved up or down, post in this thread with your reasoning on why, and the change may be enacted. Feel free to ask if there is any placement which you don't understand.
credits Heysup for the initial rankings

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Viability Ranking Council
For more controversial cases, the viability ranking council will vote on the Pokemon's tiering.

GOAO.
Heysup
Kumiho
macle
Mambo
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Tier List

Without further ado, here is the initial tier list with the rough definitions of each tier (note: Pokemon are ordered alphabetically).

S-Rank
Reserved for Pokemon that are amazing in the DPP LC metagame. These Pokemon are almost always able to perform a variety of roles effectively, or can just do one extremely well. Their use has very little risk involved and high reward exerted.
Gligar
Munchlax

A-rank

Reserved for Pokemon that are outstanding in the DPP LC metagame and can sweep, wall, or support the majority of the tier. These Pokemon do not require much support to be used effectively and have few flaws that can be overlooked when compared to their outstanding traits.
A+ rank

Bronzor
Croagunk
Elekid
Gastly
Machop
Snover
Wynaut

A Rank

Chinchou
Dratini
Drifloon
Duskull
Glameow
Houndour
Kabuto
Mankey
Mantyke
Slowpoke
Stunky
Taillow

B-Rank
Reserved for Pokemon who are great in the DPP LC metagame, but have notable flaws that affect how they function in the tier. Their positive traits still outshine their negatives, but they require a bit more team support to bring out their full potential.
B+ Rank

Aipom
Aron
Bagon
Bellsprout
Carvanha
Chimchar
Diglett
Doduo
Exeggcute
Geodude
Horsea
Krabby
Magby
Magnemite
Meowth
Oddish
Omanyte
Phanpy
Ponyta
Porygon
Staryu
Totodile
Voltorb
Wailmer

B Rank

Abra
Anorith
Barboach
Bonsly
Buizel
Buneary
Cacnea
Clamperl
Cubone
Cyndaquil
Eevee
Ekans
Goldeen
Grimer
Hippopotas
Koffing
Larvitar
Lileep
Makuhita
Natu
Paras
Pineco
Poliwag
Rattata
Seel
Shroomish
Squirtle
Swinub
Teddiursa
Trapinch
Zigzagoon

C-rank
Reserved for Pokemon that have notable niches in the DPP LC metagame, but have just as notable flaws that prevent them from being effective. Pokemon in the C tier often require significant support to be effective in DPP LC, and face a large amount of competition from the more commonly used Pokemon.

Baltoy
Bulbasaur
Charmander
Corphish
Cranidos
Drowzee
Gible
Growlithe
Lickitung
Numel
Onix
Nidoran M
Psyduck
Remoraid
Sandshrew
Shellos
Shieldon
Shupett
Snorunt
Snubbull
Spheal
Spoink
Starly
Tentacool
Wingull
Piplup


D Rank
Only tcr can make them work.
everything else
 
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Hey GOAO i feel as if a A- category might do better because alot of those B+ mons look a bit too good to be there but not good enough for A. Other than that looks nice :D
 

Heysup

I'm your rational mind.
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I don't think we need a category for like maybe 3 Pokemon that are slightly better than the rest of B+.
 

sam-testings

What a beautiful face, I have found in this place
Yeah pls add a lead section.

Also there is no A- or B- section. Is this done on purpose?

Totodile from B+ to B

It really isnt that good. It has some power sure, but like it usually is never enough to secure ohko's on important mons. If it has life orb it doesnt have oran which it wants, and if it was oran it doesnt get life orb which it also wants for power. The DD set cant really set up on that many mons either. Totodile is pretty bad just drop it pls.

I also am considering Bronzor to S. The S description says that if it does one job extremly well and Bronzor does its job pretty damn well by checking the most common mon in this tier, Gligar. It can also set up rocks, screens, wall other mons and overall is a great mon to slap onto most teams. What are peoples thoughts on Bronzor to S?
 
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Merritt

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I believe Gastly should be S rank.

It's a Pokemon that's almost always going to get at least one kill per match due to explosion and high power with its STAB moves. While it certainly has flaws like its frailty and Munchlax's high presence in the metagame as hinderances to it pulling off a sweep, it's still a very powerful wallbreaker without many solid counters, and its high speed and strength allow it to come in on many threats and either go for a kill or get a substitute up. It's probably not the best S rank but it stands solidly next to Munchlax (and helps out Munchlax's viability as well) in my opinion.
 

Heysup

I'm your rational mind.
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On lead section:

I think that's more of a role compendium thing - but I mean it's not too difficult to sort out the leads but it's just hard to actually "rank" the leads. It's kind of rock-paper-scissors but some of them have more value than others midgame and some match up better early game (kind of a trade off).

I mean can I really rank Chimchar higher than Houndour for example? I mean Chimchar gets SR up, but Houndour has a pretty good matchup against every lead, worst case scenario just losing but if the opponent sets up SR it will generally win. For example, Gastly / Hypnosis / Sleep leads will likely lose to Houndour but not to Chimchar. And then to throw like Bronzor in there who will likely press SR and then switch out and counter something late game?

What is actually better?

On Gastly -> S: my opinion is no

I honestly contemplated that. It's just that it's going to get Pursuited. Duskull maybe should be shifted up to A+ and Gastly to S but they do have clear weaknesses. Gligar and Munch do too but they can honestly overcome most of them / they are easy to compensate for because using them together compensates for almost everything already.

Toto -> B: my opinion is no

I don't get it. It has decent bulk and sets up on a lot of common Pokemon (like Glig, Dour, others i'm too lazy to calc) and OHKOes a shit load of the metagame with Ajet / Return / Waterfall coverage (nothing resists that in DPP). It's basically Krabby but doesn't have the immediate power in exchange for doing better against certain mons users and not needing to hit Crabhammer. It also has priority, so it can boost to +2 in one turn and still pick off things like Gastly while having the power to still donk things with +2 Power instead of +2 if Krabby uses agility. Not better, but different for sure.

Bronzor -> S: my opinion is no.

Would be but it's so trappable by Wynaut and Magnemite plus it's set up bait for a lot of things. Countering Gligar, Taillow, Aron etc, is awesome and that's why it's high in the rankings but to be much higher would be overselling it's ability to avoid being isolated and picked off.
 
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Just a minor fixture: I believe Aipom should be A rank instead of B+ or rather A- like everyone has been suggesting -
 
Just a minor fixture: I believe Aipom should be A rank instead of B+ or rather A- like everyone has been suggesting -
I don't think so, it's not as good as Glameow and definitely not better than Meowth, who's sitting at B+ too. All it really has over the two is a higher Attack stat, while lacking the priority of Glameow and Meowth's Technician (juicy boost to Fake Out). Both also get Hypnosis, sleep being very useful. It's fine where it is, IMO. If anything, I almost wanna say drop it to B because I just think it's inferior to the other two.
 
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tcr

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Gonna agree with Heysup on this one, a leads section would be really weird to figure out, as there are many different types of leads that just function differently than each other. While Chimchar and Kabuto are two of the best SR setters, do we rank them up there with Machop, who is commonly used as a disruptor? What about Meowth, who is often used as an anti-lead? Hypno Gastly lead? Drifloon anti-lead, houndour anti-lead? There's just too many different jobs that a lead could possibly cover that it'd be too much effort for what its worth to rank each lead as it is.

More on topic, I don't particularly care for Snover being A+. I don't really find its lead sets too threatening, as although Hail does break sashes imo it loses to some of the more common leads, like Machop / Kabuto / Chimchar / Bronzor / Gastly / Houndour. Its other sets I don't find too threatening either, both a Scarf set and a LO Lure set are fairly mediocre in my eyes, as the Scarf set is bait for Bronzor / whatever to set up it (I find a lot of scarfers to be really risky to run in general, as they are often bait for something like a SD / Agility Gligar or Aron or something) and its LO set is just easily worn down thru Wood Hammer recoil, hazards, and priority. I'd honestly see it at B+ unless there's something I'm missing, and see it with mons like Aron / Magby / Staryu more so than things like Wynaut and Machop.
 

Nails

Double Threat
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thoughts @ list.

munchlax -> S+, munchlax is god. gligar -> A+ would be an acceptable alternative but you need Really good reasons to ditch munchlax from your team, gligar less so. lax deserves a tier to itself.

duskull, chinchou -> A+, duskull can switch into munchlax which makes it a staple imo. chinchou is better than half the current a+ rank mons, the package of damage + speed + tankiness + resists makes it So Good.

bronzor, elekid, croagunk -> A, they were prob better when dpp lc was super ho no alternatives but imo post missy dpp lc should be mostly oran berries bulky offense. i also think rocks aren't that important and that's one of bronzor's main niches. i feel the least strongly about zor, it doesn't do damage but it makes gligar sorta sad i guess in that it makes it run aqua tail which it would have for the mirror anyway... idt that's really worth a+ though.

glameow, drifloon, slowpoke -> A- (?), i legit don't remember what the first 2 do, pls help me out. slowpoke is ok just idt it's at the same level as other mons. it dies p easily and zhb damage is quite meh. yeah it's a machop counter but idt that's enough.

hippo is better than c+ for sure

rest seem fine, everything below A is a gimmick so i didn't look too closely at them. also change the descriptions to reflect the fact that cyndaquil, natu, koffing and friends are not great in the dpp lc metagame.

thoughts @ comments.

no to gastly -> s, it's deadly and its highs are really high but it requires really precise play to pull off and it's a point too slow.

scarf snover is an a+ mon, other sets are meh.

aron should be a- imo
 

Heysup

I'm your rational mind.
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I just want to say up front, I don't really care what things change to that much so you won't offend me if you change it. These threads are kind of stupid and subjective beyond the point of what it is right now - a general overview of what shit is good and what shit is not as good and what shit is diarrhea.

-


More on topic, I don't particularly care for Snover being A+. I don't really find its lead sets too threatening, as although Hail does break sashes imo it loses to some of the more common leads, like Machop / Kabuto / Chimchar / Bronzor / Gastly / Houndour. Its other sets I don't find too threatening either, both a Scarf set and a LO Lure set are fairly mediocre in my eyes, as the Scarf set is bait for Bronzor / whatever to set up it (I find a lot of scarfers to be really risky to run in general, as they are often bait for something like a SD / Agility Gligar or Aron or something) and its LO set is just easily worn down thru Wood Hammer recoil, hazards, and priority. I'd honestly see it at B+ unless there's something I'm missing, and see it with mons like Aron / Magby / Staryu more so than things like Wynaut and Machop.
I actually think it's found its way on most teams as a bulky Gligar check. AAce is Semi-Rare, Stone Edge even more so, and it can pick Gligar off with Ice Shard STAB (which hurts most things). But I think it's most valuable because it stops weather and Sash Abuse teams pretty well cold. I mean in DPP LC those teams are really strong - sash mons will beat non-sash mons almost all of the time without Hail or SR. SR is not super hard to prevent (fast taunt lead, Spin Staryu, etc), so that really leaves Snover as the most viable counter. I mean Hippo can work but it a) doesn't stop rain and b) doesn't fit that well.


thoughts @ list.

munchlax -> S+, munchlax is god. gligar -> A+ would be an acceptable alternative but you need Really good reasons to ditch munchlax from your team, gligar less so. lax deserves a tier to itself.
I do think Munchlax is better than Gligar but they are SO much better than everything else, much more than Munchlax is than Gligar. And S+ is made up.

duskull, chinchou -> A+, duskull can switch into munchlax which makes it a staple imo. chinchou is better than half the current a+ rank mons, the package of damage + speed + tankiness + resists makes it So Good.
I think Duskull is a very solid alternative to Gastly if you need a lax switch but it lacks the Speed and power which is really important to stop set ups (not everything cares about wisp) or revenge kill. I think its the definition of anti-meta. I think if players treated it as on the same level as gastly, it would fair really poorly.

Chinchou has 4 mss and can't do enough with the slots its given. It's always walled by munchlax and snover, but then need to pick Dragon, other Chinchou, Croagunk, etc. to not be walled by. It's not quite strong enough or fast enough. I mean it's great, and I get that you used it on your team which seems to boost everything on your list to like S tier, but it's not the same level of shit like Machop.

bronzor, elekid, croagunk -> A, they were prob better when dpp lc was super ho no alternatives but imo post missy dpp lc should be mostly oran berries bulky offense. i also think rocks aren't that important and that's one of bronzor's main niches. i feel the least strongly about zor, it doesn't do damage but it makes gligar sorta sad i guess in that it makes it run aqua tail which it would have for the mirror anyway... idt that's really worth a+ though.
Bronzor is immensely versatile. Sets up SR, Weather, usually walls one thing as a hard-stop per game (Gligar, Taillow, Glameow, Croagunk, etc). It's hard to move that down.

Elekid, I do see your point there, but I do think it's hard to actually stop once its in. I do think you're overselling the "bulkiness" of DPP LC a bit even if people are looking to bulky Chop leads and shit it doesn't change the fact that the mechanics basically make it a kill-or-be-killed slugfest. It OHKOes a lot of S, A+, and A mons. Priority is basically the only thing that stops it, and sucker punch is a guessing game.

Croagunk is basically the best revenge killer in a game in which all you really do is revenge kill. Even if we are using bulkier mons, the fake out vacuum wave combo still does a shit load and it has room for coverage moves to hit slower bulky mons (like Cross Chop for lax, EQ for other gunk, Dark Pulse for Duskull (haha bitch)).

glameow, drifloon, slowpoke -> A- (?), i legit don't remember what the first 2 do, pls help me out. slowpoke is ok just idt it's at the same level as other mons. it dies p easily and zhb damage is quite meh. yeah it's a machop counter but idt that's enough.
Glameow is a fucking 19 speed beast that can run fake out sucker punch and has 2 moves for power / coverage. I dont know why it became less popular in your era of dpp lc but im bringing it back.

Floon has always been underrated set up sweeping. It can beat lax with +2 and is bulky enough to take a pursuit or 2.


Slowpoke is literally the only machop counter, but also stops Gligar and Croagunk in addition to physical water types.

hippo is better than c+ for sure
sure.
 
Piplup to C

If Kumi can make it work so can I xD.


Actually tho its nice and has its good points. Rocks and bulk is nice as you can see from watching kumi. Dont see it getting higher than C tho.
 
I don't think there's too much I would change here. I think the upper rankings are a good foundation to get a snapshot of the good and bad anyways and things like Shroomish for example I think is more useful in B+ minus the susceptibility to Snover. However, nitpicking all the details of the stuff lower than A seems a bit tedious and pointless since most teams are going to be based on the higher rankings anyways and those are the important ones, which is why I'm fine with leaving something like Shroomish where it is.

As far as the discussion points go I don't think Duskull should be A+. Its defensive qualities I don't really find to be enough to make it on the level of the more prominent A+ mons such as Machop. You might argue they provide different qualities and as such they shouldn't be compared, but the efficiency of a lot of mons such as Snover and the darks like Houndour and Stunky can give Duskull some trouble throughout the match, reflective of the level of preparation needed for it.

I don't really have a high opinion of Chinchou, from games I've seen and played it's a hit or miss mon to me. The susceptibility to the relevant forms of priority barring Machops Bullet Punch creates a lot of weird situations that aren't always in favor of the Chinchou user to me. I think it's a good offensive check to Elekid with the Scarf Variants but otherwise not too sure and I believe it's placement is more sound amongst the A ranked mons to begin with.
 

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