OU DPP OU Viability Ranking: mk. V

[awyp]

I've played DPP since its inception, and I started playing back again last year. I'm pretty invested in the community, I'll give my opinion since no one asked.

- Self explanatory, broken and in most cases where you're thinking of a 6th member (if you haven't fit it in already) it's an easy glue. Excellent lead, amazing choice user, switches into Latias' Dracos all day, has a versatile moveset but really what puts it over the top is any iteration of Body Slam / Thunder Wave + Iron Head, most of the time its a unfair advantage because you'll get haxed to death and you have to really be smart with ways to prepare for it. I'm hoping it gets banned.

- Outside of Jirachi, is the best Pokemon in the tier, I'm not arguing anything its where it should be but personally I think it's a must in this meta with pursuit trapping as an option, just being a SpD bulky wall, as well as being extremely threatening with Lum + Dragon Dance, really minimizes Latias, Starmie, Rotom-W, and Gengars viability.

- Not arguing anything, but yeah fantastic mon.

- Not arguing anything, but this mon has gotten really good over the last 12 years, essentially has made Blissey not as relevant.

- Yeah, this thing is on the same rank as Skarmory and Clefable. The Scarf lead sets are very reminiscing of scarf Darkrai sets in Ubers. where you just want to outspeed everything not scarfed / Aero and put it to sleep. Quite a brainless set but it works tremendously well. 100% Sleep acc is pretty overpowered combine that with Toxic Orb + Poison Heal it becomes very easy to fit in common sandstorm structures because it essentially acts like Leftovers in sand. Has access to Mach Punch which is great in this meta as well as running a variety of sets which I won't get into such as Leech Seed / Sub, Sub Focus Punch, Superpower Swords Dance, Protect / Seed etc. Spore is what puts it in S tier in my eyes.

- Not arguing anything, very good.

- So good, I think personally it's under utilized but I get it. Really good Jirachi switch-in 90% of the time. Choice Scarf set cleans up some games, I use the Sub-Toxic set sometimes, but also the lead sets including Magma Storm spam works well when it actually hits. Provides fantastic bulk overall. I think the only reason it's not S tier is becomes Tyranitar / Latias is extremely common. Shoutout to the Eruption set.

- Amazing mon, not much to break down here but Waterfall + Dragon Dance and 2 filler moves are the way to go, you can go Taunt, Thunder Wave, or Substitute in one slot, and then you can go Stone Edge, Ice Fang, Outrage, EQ the other or mix and match to your liking. It's one of the main reasons you have to carry speed check because it can get really out of hand quickly. I think also the lack of bulky waters is what allows it to progress so well in this tier. Lum / Wacan / Leftovers all work well. It's interesting because it literally only runs one (different variants in general). It's been quite while personally since I've seen Roar Rest-talk. Stealth Rock weakness keeps it A rank as well as Latias' presense.

- Starmie is by far the most common spinner in the tier, the only reason it isn't higher is because of Tyranitar switch-ins so you have to be careful to bringing it in (IMO). Has a great speed tier, and personally I've been having success with the Life Orb / Choice Specs set which Tyranitar doesn't want to switch-in on. I think it's overall its hard for it to ever move up in the ranking with Tyranitar everywhere. It's speed control is extremely underrated where it forces a lot of the Latias to run scarf or you're getting cooked by LO Ice beam. Natural Cure is one of the best abilities to have in this tier, it just does so much to be honest, and the T-Wave sets are really good.

- Hate this mon but I've grown to love it. In a spike stacking game it does so well. One of the best pivoters in the meta because it only takes 6% each time from Stealth rock switchins so it's extremely low effort. It's a great choiced user, as well as being one of the best speed checks like outspeeding Adamant Agility Gross. The Mix set also causes a lot of issues, and the problem is just scouting out what set it is and what it's going to do.

- Same like Flygon where it's only affected by Stealth Rock but it takes 12.5% damage each switch in, I would say I'm personally a fan of the Choice Scarf set where it has the ability to outspeed a lot of common threats such as Gyarados, Dragonite, and Lucario. I personally though think what puts it up here is the Rest Talk set, this is the ideal switch-in to Brelooms spore, as well as just having access to Will-O-Wisp it can at least do something to Tyranitar switch-ins unlike Latias. Also really good into Starmie Rapid spins, and just threatening with Thunderbolt.

- Stealth Rock lead set with Lum, Shuca, or Occa Berry are really good in general. Iron Ball trick isn't bad either. I think the Agility Gross sets are fantastic late game sweepers especially if Mash decides to give you a boost. I've been using the Scarf sets and I think they're quite underrated on more offensive teams. I think Metagross is this high personally because of it's versatility. Jirachi (If not carrying Fire Punch) kinda gets walled by its fatter sets, so that's also a huge boost on its ranking.

- This one hurt but I would say what makes it worse ranking then Gyarados is overall being locked into Outrage which can be un-timely because no one is using Dragon Claw. As well as having a useless ability 90% of the time (Inner Focus) outside of Jirachi going for Iron Head flinches in comparison to Intimidate which can be extremely valuable in general to break down some physical sweepers. But outside of that, Extreme Speed access is great, I'm huge fan of the MixNite sets as well as the Choice Band sets as well. Stealth Rock definitely puts it down a notch with the choiced sets but overall I think it's one of the top mons just because Dragon types in general are so good when it comes to type / typing.

- Not going to argue much, one of the top mons and overall amazing bulk in conjunction with setting up sand and overall working really well in Semi-Stall / Balanced teams.

- Probably the best classic suicide lead, really good speed tier, Focus Sash is pretty solid still to this day, but I've grown a liking to a bulky Lum set with Taunt / Rocks. Choice Scarf / Band trick lead sets are also really good in general and just adds another layer to prepare for. It does its job very well which is just setting up rocks. Also Levitate works great here where you don't have to sack it right away and use it later for late game explosion.

- I think still the best bulky water in the meta, I feel like spike stacking definitely stops it from reaching higher then this point but personally I've had a lot of success with the more offensive sets just because it provides solid speed as well as just overall strong power without needing to click Calm Mind, I've also used Rest talk sets and they still work really good, this thing is quite bulky and allows it to act as a wall / sweeper depending on the set. Switches in really well against Gyarados.

- Yeah personally I get the Jirachi dominance on why people don't rank Luke this high, but I won't really take this slander. Gliscor is not as popular as it once was, it also is probably the best late game sweeper in the game mainly to how much choiced Draco Meteor I switch into or, how many choiced Crunches from Tyranitar it'll take it just becomes setup-bait and sets up at the most opportunistic times. Swords Dance is quite reliable including Bullet Punch for Scarftar, +2 Extreme Speed + LO essentially kills most offensive mons especially with Stealth Rock chip. Agility sets are also pretty underrated, Choice Scarf Luke also becomes something to prepare for in general. Mix Luke isn't bad either. I think it's overall versatility carries a lot of weight but I've swept way to much to be putting it under A2.

----

I won't break down every single mon at this point, but feel free to @ me

- Extremely underrated yeah Latias being common definitely stops it from being a top dog but it still has access to U-Turn, you can just give it leftovers if you hate Sandstorm + Stealth Rock damage continuously. Life Orb I think has become unviable because it loses too much health but I am a big fan of Expert Belt, also it's the best mixed attacker in the game, Fire Blast / Close Combat hits everything. Has access to Mach Punch as well. Nasty Plot / Swords Dance sets are definitely under-utilized. 347 Speed is definitely a solid speed tier, can go further in detail if need but overall stop the hate, I don't think the Life Orb set is the sole reason to bump it down like damn.

Yall need to stop talking shit about this mon, respect to BKC but how is this mon that irrelevant to you, it has high usage because it's the 2nd best pursuiter in the meta, it has access to one of the best priorities in the game and absolutely makes DD tar irrelevant. Access to Roost, Swords Dance + Superpower, can run U-Turn Choice Band / Scarf. It is an excellent pivoter, and a great switch-in on Draco Meteors from Latias and killing it off with pursuit. I think it's the best mon in A3 personally.

Yeah, this is the most underrated mon by far, it wants to get statused (preferably para'd) so it gets its defense boost, and it's just fat, if you have something wanting to setup in its face you can just Haze it, you can toxi-stall if needed. Gives Gyarados a heap of problems to be quite honest, there's really not much to break down on sets it's pretty simple but it also has access to Refresh if you're not running Heal Bell on the team. I feel like in a meta where status is king Milotic can shine quite nice. 95 / 79 / 125 provides overall a good enough defense in order to be considered on a team.

I'll maybe add more if I have time.

 

[johnnyg2]

I know it's a meme when people say they'll add more later, but I will. EDIT: I did :)

Personally, I think Jirachi warps the tier more than any other Pokemon in DPP. I think it's simultaneously underrated among DPP mains (who don't rank it universally no 1) and overrated among the general population (who think its some all powerful pokemon). Nothing else forces bulky steel types like Jirachi (even more so than specs Latias). Nothing else forces the current structures of offensive and even defensive teams like Jirachi. Jirachi is the best pokemon in DPP: it can customized to deal with almost any Pokemon and even in this state of the metagame where everybody has adapted to it, it can still be effective with passive hax opportunities.

I also have Tyranitar and not Latias as my second best Pokemon bc of how integral it is to offensive teams. Pursuit has come more to the forefront. DD is as great as ever, gluing together HO teams. CB has had a resurfacing. Mixed has come back w the reemphasis on Pursuit. Even the fact that Scarf tar has had a somewhat diminished place in the tier has made for a cascade of changes such as the resurfacing of Starmie. Sand is as influential as ever. Despite how good Latias is, the fact that Tyranitar is as good as it is makes it no 2 in my eyes.

Some general words on S2: Latias is amazing. Still think Specs is the defining set, as I didnt really like the mixed set when I tried it. Scarf is great glue. The best universal Water-resist on Stall and offense even if it is gigantic Pursuit bait. I am glad to see people ranking Gyara would it should -- top 5. Like TTar, great HO glue, flinch runs the game. I rated it higher than last time bc I believe the meta has gone back towards offense and more offensive mons (even though resttalk gyara and the twoish teams it fits on is awesome too) are more at the forefront. Even if imo skarmclef are less prominent than they were, still the face of bulkier teams. Enjoying the diversity of offensive skarm sets (all different items, icy wind) and clef punishers (sing, focus punch, fully offensive).

s3: Tran is ridiculous: one of the faces of DPP special offense bc it forces particular responses on stall and breaks them open with coverage + Explosion or Taunt/Magma. Its common weaknesses and mediocre speed prevent me from putting it higher, but it fits so well on those bulkier offenses common in the metagame and can always dip into its support movepool or choice items to be an enormous threat on any style. Loom I kinda see similarly: amazing, generation defining mon that I can't quite put up with Gyara/Lati/Skarm/Clef due to how the meta has adapted to it but still is universally threatening in any part of the game w spore and strong attacks.

I want to end S3 with talking how fucking good empoleon is and why I think it belongs up here. Offensively, the Sash Knock lead set is amazing and is perhaps the best lead at wresting momentum against offensive and defensive teams. It is one of the mons most responsible for shifting momentum away from defensive teams in the meta imo, as it effortless knocks off Clef and opens up their counter play to waters with its coverage and strong attacks. Defensively, it is one of the best water resists in the tier: an amazing Jirachi check, can set up rocks reliably, and even is relatively resistant to trapping just w HP investment or a resistance berry. Sweeping sets are as good as ever, even if i believe more in Petaya berry sets than agility 3 attacks or SD. Specs is also a fantastic set alongside CB Tar, the combo almost breaks defensive teams without Mag by themselves. I think it belongs up in the periphery of the top 10.

a1: Zapdos is hugely underrated by the playerbase imo. As people have realized w how prominent Gyara is you dont always need Spin support, Zapdos is also a beneficiary. Offensive Zap is naturally amazing against HO w speed power and coverage, while w Pursuit support, is very effective against defensive teams. Defensive Zap is a menace w bulk and pressure, and w lesser prominence of Scarf Tar, its partner in crime Starmie is also more effective at removing Rocks for it. Speaking of Starmie, I have rediscovered the old Starmie teams of 2010ish era and I love them now. Like Zap, naturally amazing against HO w Speed and coverage + potential to spin away hazards for free. Been liking it a lot.

Scizor I also think belongs up here for the first time in like forever for how effective it is for HO teams as a Pursuit mon and a sweeper. Osgoode/Kristyl's discovery of non LO offensive Scizor last year has reinvented the mon in my eyes and I've using it a lot, even busting out the old CB set bc of how good it is against HO.

Other words about a1: Not as huge of a fan of gengar as someone like Sinnoh, but w a Lum, I really have been enjoying it as a general Breloom check. A great partner to Pert (another mon i basically stopped using) to help w Loom. Dnite is as powerful as ever. My Flygon/Gliscor usage hasnt been insanely high, but Flygon has a big effect on my teambuilding (bc it limits my HOs) and Gliscor is a fantastic choice w Power Herb Sky Attack or just a general Yache berry

a2: my main comment is about Suicune. I don't rate suicune as highly as the french, but its ability to utility check almost everything and the utility of Lum on it has made me love the mon. Hippo is one the faces of stall: I find it to be perhaps the most oppressive mon on stall to beat, as it is the best sand setter (imo) for them and is so damn bulky. I have used more magneton lately than zone, but zone has unique niches.

a3: KINGDRA. This mon outside of rain is ridiculously good as a wallbreaker. The old specs set has a great mix of bulk and power and I've been loving it lately. I could see it rising dramatically. Haven't been seeing a lot of quag builds I like. I'm probably the highest person on Rhyperior in DPP, and its because I think it is a premier para abuser like Machamp w either a Sub or a CB set. Insanely physically bulky too.

 

[bruno]

 

[Le Don]

View attachment 550440

I will explain later

!

Mismagius is C2

 

[BIHI]

I didn't rank the lead only mons because i always find them awkward to include in a vr

 

[Mishimono]

Something like this. I haven't used a bunch of the C2 guys, but included ones I've seen others have success with and feel have potential.

 

[Excal]

 

[SFG]

 

[Kristyl]

DPP OU VR

I'll try to give some insight into my rankings and finally do writeups like I said I would do 3 years ago LOL.



Jirachi #1 should be pretty self explanatory, I don't have much to add I think Johnny put it perfectly in his post above. Scarf is a bit underrated, in conjunction with hazards and sand it can be a great late game sweeper, also it's a Trick Scarf user that Tyranitar doesn't really want to switch into. Wish Tect is probably the most busted and meta warping set in the game, it can snowball pretty quickly if you're not careful and give it any momentum. Personally I think Rest Talk is pretty bad Iron Head Fire Punch as your only attacking moves is just way too passive imo and if you don't use those I would rather just use Wish Tect.



I used to hate Pursuit Tyranitar but I've really come around to it, mostly I like how it punishes Clefable early game and traps Defensive Latias, it gives you a lot more tools and flexibility when dealing with stall. Strong Water type + Pursuit Tyranitar is just very threatening for bulky structures. Works great with Fighters too of course. Can't understate Pursuits value vs offense too since you trap Rotom and Latias, sometimes even Flygon if you predict correctly. DD is good but I guess I've soured on it a bit as people seem way more prepared for it nowadays. I like DD with Spikes or with Ice Punch on Tyranitar, Taunt is good too. Taunt + Pursuit is an amazing set that I've used a lot recently. Oh also sand is great!



Staple of any defensive team and defensive teams are great. You can't really get away with not using Clefable on a lot of these bulkier structure, in part due to the mirror since the best Clefable answer is.. Clefable. Bold is pretty good but difficult to fit. Copycat is an underrated option on Clefable, Cosmic Power is annoying as hell for offense but a bit useless in the stall mirror. I like CM Flamethrower a lot when you can afford it.



Yeah I think I rate Latias a bit lower then most people but I'll try my best to justify it. I don't really use Latias on offense that often, I honestly find Specs to be pretty mediocre, it kind of lacks power imo and can be a pretty big momentum sink. Scarf is good but I prefer Scarf Rotom a lot of the time, which I'll talk about later. Defensive Latias is amazing but I often prefer the alternatives (spinner cores or milotic/quag + gliscor). So basically I end up not using Latias enough for me to justify ranking it as high as others do, its defensive profile is amazing and a necessity on a lot of teams though.



spikes.




They fulfill similar roles on offense and I see them as *almost* mandatory due to their ability to force out Jirachi at least once or twice. Both also provide rocks. Heatran > Metagross because Skarmory pressure and better Boom Targets. I think dropping Boom on Agility Metagross should be considered more often it works pretty well as a dedicated sweeper imo.



Automatic addition to like 70% of offense teams for acting as both a threat while being great defensively vs Grounds,Fires,Fighters,Metagross etc. Really underrated aspect is just how diverse its movepool is, all of Outrage,Thunder Wave,Sub,Taunt,Ice Fang,Return or even Natural Gift with Liechi are great options. I think CB is also awesome for the immediate power, makes for a great lead too. Extreme BS factor with Waterfall, especially when paired with Sub and/or Twave.



I feel like Breloom is both overrated and underrated at the same time. Personally I don't find it that amazing vs offense, Spore doesn't feel that free as a click as it used to be imo. With Lum being thrown on Gengar,Jirachi,Metagross,Tyranitar and more, vs fast teams it can be hard to get Breloom in more then once so if you clunk into a Lum mon you might be in trouble (example of what I mean). That being said its ability to pivot into Bulky Grounds and electric moves coming from Rotom/Latias while also helping vs Tyranitar is invaluable and makes it still great. Personally I never drop Focus Punch on Breloom, I think its just way too good to pass up and being walled by Jirachi and Skarmory feels so bad. Also catching one of those Lum mons trying to pivot into Spore with Focus Punch is super great. Focus Punch also lets you rip apart stall with some well-timed predictions.




For the last like year and a half I've been saying how good both Starmie and Zapdos really are, I truly think this playstyle is the most robust in DPP and gives you the ability to outplay almost every matchup. I don't think they're the easiest to use they require well timed predictions and game planning but if you know what you're doing then its very satisfying to use. Pursuit Tyranitar is a great partner to Starmie, but not necessary. You wont always be keeping rocks off through the entirety of a game with Starmie but you don't really need to. Forcing your opponent into bad trades and resetting progress is extremely valuable and sometimes the threat of spin is enough. Also worth mentioning that Zapdos can function fine vs offense with Rocks on the field still, you still check Breloom,Gyarados,Metagross etc even after taking Rocks chip. Specs Starmie is great too, so is Zapdos. Idk I could go on but I just think they're really good and my experience using them the last year backs that up.



Probably my most used Scarfer ghost typing is so valuable in this tier and helps a lot when dealing with Starmie. Resisting steel is so good for dealing with all of Lucario,Metagross and Jirachi. Basically I think it compresses a lot of checks and roles into 1 mon. I like Modest HP Fighting Scarf to patch up DD TTar weaknesses sometimes lol. Rest Talk is great too.



Not much for me to say, its just really solid all around.



I think many would say Hippowdon makes stall what it is and its hard for me to disagree. Great mixed wall, can beat Infernape,Heatran,Mixgon and more while also not being Pursuit weak. Sets sand and rocks, yea Hippowdon deserves to be ranked super high imo.



Superman teams are really good and difficult to beat, largely in part due to Bronzong. I feel like I'm the only one who likes Trick Room still but I really do think its good. It does clunk a bit into stall but the defensive utility it offers is great for offensive teams (steel + ground immunity is amazing). it enables some unique structures that can cover the stall matchup for you while Bronzong owns offense.



Great vs offense, I feel it can always at least go 1 for 1 and sometimes even more vs slower teams. Stall matchup isn't great for offcune but also not horrible with some smart play and building. Lum Cune innovation at lead is pretty cool. I like Sub with Max Spatk to mess with Clefable,Jirachi and Latias while still maintaining power. Really appreciates healing wish support.




Gengar is pretty polarizing but I think I rank it fairly, its great overall for obvious reasons just Focus Blast and Wisp are really annoying to rely on. Fast suicide Taunt is great for giving your mons setup opportunities late game. Maybe Destiny Bond should be used more. Lum is a recent trend but I think it kinda stinks since you die to sand, passive recovery from Black Sludge is too good to pass up imo.



It's similar to Heatran and Metagross I feel but it lacks Boom, though matches up better into Hippowdon which is very valuable. Empoleon + CB Tar is a great lead combo imo. AoA Empoleon with Rocker in the back is pretty good, though I think Specs is just alright, I prefer its other sets often. I also like Spdef Empoleon and Agility, SD is pretty bad I feel like but the surprise factor is good and it does fit on some teams.



Great defensive utility and can set rocks, Tankpert is super annoying for offense while offpert can be pretty good vs stall. I don't like Mixed all that much but with the right support it can be really annoying, I think it wants Healing Wish and some way of crippling defensive Latias.



I feel like Machamp is one of the most consistently threating mons on DPP, along with Jirachi and Gyarados. It's just good like every game and is so so threatening. I like the Bulk Up sets but Sub is also pretty broken. With more Bronzong > Jirachi being used on stall I think Machamp is in a very good place.



Extreme Speed and Inner Focus are very valuable for a lot of offense teams. I haven't really figured out the best way to use Defensive DD sets but I feel like they're alright.



CB is underrated I feel, Mixed is ok, Scarf is really annoying for offense and with Roost filler on more balanced teams it can be good vs stall too since you 1v1 Clefable. Being immune to basically all residual damage is pretty nuts.




Magnezone > Magneton because of its diversity and superior bulk, Magnezone is actually a dragon and electric resist while Magneton doesn't really feel like one a lot of the time. Magnezone is also better into Jirachi ofc. But I do like that Magneton opens up some unique structures and can be pretty good vs physical offense.



It's speed tier is really good for dealing with Jirachi and Suicune. Kind of competes with Breloom for me.




Both of these feel like awkward Pokemon to build around for me, since they're steel types that aren't that good vs Jirachi or Latias. I would say their main value for me often comes from their priority moves in Extreme Speed and Bullet punch. Though if you're using Extreme Speed on Lucario you're not as good vs stall since you don't have both Crunch and Ice Punch like the Agility set does. Kind of funny but I've had decent experiences using CM Lucario. Scarf is ok still but kind of competes with Jirachi and Magneton now I feel. I like SD Occa Bug Bite Scizor a lot, CB is just alright for me, not that great at trapping Latias I feel.



My god I probably have so many discord lines saying how good and underrated Celebi is, and it seems my propaganda spreading has caught on. It's physdef bulk is pretty nuts, so it matches up better in Swampert,Tyranitar,Gyarados,Dragonite,Metagross,Jirachi and Breloom compared to Latias. Seriously some of the calcs are insane, like it can eat a +1 Crunch from DD TTar so you aren't even setup bait for it. It's amazing vs offense while also having great utility vs defense. Using rocks on it can free you up in the builder but it has so many great options. Natural Cure is huge too, letting you trade with Jirachi more freely and pivot into Wisp or incoming TWaves. I really could go on forever, maybe I'll make a full post dedicated to it in the future.



Seeing Donphan pickup in usage the last year has been super cool, great mon. Movepool is amazing.



I feel like Roserade has become underrated. Toxic Spikes are still pretty good, specifically for dealing with Tyranitar and Hippowdon. Dual Spikes sets are pretty mediocre for me, I think you really want one of Stun Spore or Sleep Powder to get full value out of Roserade.



Lowkey a better Specs user then Latias. I like DD for its matchup into OffCune.




They're good at what they do, which is annoy the hell out of offense teams. Milotic is better into mixed attackers while Quagsire is better into Tyranitar.



Super bulky so its annoying for offense with Twave, great long term win condition vs stall. Should probably use it with a Cleric or with Magnezone then make Togekiss the cleric.




Feel pretty fringe but are ok at times.



My god I love Abomasnow I think its so good and underrated, honestly I kind of want to move it higher. It's surprisingly really damn hard to switch into and can annoy the hell out of offense with Leech Seed or just claim victims with its Mixed set which feels so difficult to switch into. Also it can threaten stall since it's actually threatening to defense cores. I don't think its as hard to build around as some people say it is, it can fit on a fair amount of teams and the payoff is well worth it. Yeah, great mon I will always be an Abomasnow advocate.



It's so damn bulky and hard to force out due to sticky hold. Has a lot of great sets like Curse,Counter or personally I've liked Modest Yawn a lot, it's kind of unexpectedly tough to switch into and is good vs stall.




They're kind of similar mons and I feel they're both underrated. If either get behind a Sub it can snowball out of control very fast. CB Rhyperior kind of just claims one every time it comes in. I think its a myth that Rhyperior needs sand tbh, it functions fine without and your opponent will set it a lot of the time anyway. Rhyperior > Mamoswine because its superior bulk I guess and I feel it needs less support. Both abuse paralysis very well too.











Camerupt feels too slow and dies to too many attacks but it also really wants leftovers so you can't even tech a Passho on it or something, blegh. It's ok from time to time maybe but it got overhyped.



Not bad in theory but in practice it doesn't feel that good for me and it's super difficult to fit since you lose the Water and Fire resist that Latias has.



I have faith that Slowbro is pretty good, it checks too much broken stuff to not be (Machamp,Jirachi,Gyarados,Metagross). But.. I haven't really found the right fit for it yet.




Registeel is really cool tbh, great bulk and access to Twave,Seismic Toss,Rocks and Explosion so it kind of just has to be good. I have a few teams with it and they've performed pretty well. Super annoying mon.





Steelix Ground/Steel typing is cool role compression, I think its viable somewhere.

 

[Rubiaa]

View attachment 336613 DPP OU Viability Ranking View attachment 336614

​

Welcome to the DPP OU Viability Rankings topic. In this thread, we as a community will rank every single usable Pokemon into "tiers." In this thread, you're encouraged to post your thoughts and opinions on the various Pokemon that are usable in DPP OU and what tier they should fall under.

The general idea of the topic is to rank each DPP OU pokemon under "rankings" that go in descending order. Since this is a general tier list, everything is lumped together. There won't be any segregation between offense & defense threats.

S1 Rank
View attachment 336668 Jirachi

S2 Rank
View attachment 336669 Tyranitar
View attachment 336676 Latias

S3 Rank
View attachment 336679 Clefable
View attachment 336672 Skarmory

A1 Rank
View attachment 336691 Flygon
View attachment 336674Breloom

A2 Rank
View attachment 336670 Heatran
View attachment 336684 Metagross
View attachment 336685 Gyarados
View attachment 336671 Rotom-A

A3 Rank
View attachment 336689 Gengar
View attachment 336675 Swampert
View attachment 336698 Lucario
View attachment 336686 Gliscor
View attachment 336690 Dragonite

B1 Rank
View attachment 336694 Magnezone
View attachment 336693 Empoleon
View attachment 336687 Zapdos

B2 Rank
View attachment 336705 Hippowdon
View attachment 336701 Azelf
View attachment 336692 Bronzong
View attachment 336673 Starmie

C1 Rank
View attachment 336696 Suicune
View attachment 336716 Quagsire
View attachment 336697 Machamp
View attachment 336707 Scizor
View attachment 336700 Roserade

C2 Rank
View attachment 336717 Forretress
View attachment 336703 Blissey
View attachment 336699 Kingdra
View attachment 336677 Infernape

D1 Rank
View attachment 336702 Milotic
View attachment 336695 Nidoqueen
View attachment 336711 Mamoswine
View attachment 436281 Magneton
View attachment 336704 Uxie
View attachment 336706 Celebi
View attachment 336723 Aerodactyl
View attachment 336760 Gastrodon
View attachment 336738 Donphan
View attachment 336745 Qwilfish
View attachment 336729 Froslass
View attachment 336746 Ludicolo
View attachment 336747 Camerupt
View attachment 336709 Raikou
View attachment 336712 Abomasnow
View attachment 336774 Gallade
View attachment 336715 Togekiss

D2 Rank
View attachment 336710 Shaymin
View attachment 336718 Cresselia
View attachment 336708 Heracross
View attachment 336722 Tentacruel
View attachment 336720 Rhyperior
View attachment 336736 Slowbro

E Rank
View attachment 336733 Moltres
View attachment 336726 Weavile
View attachment 436291 Claydol
View attachment 336724 Vaporeon
View attachment 336731 Hitmontop
View attachment 336728 Mesprit
View attachment 336719 Venusaur
View attachment 436292 Smeargle
View attachment 336714 Crobat
View attachment 336740 Kabutops
View attachment 436293 Slowking
View attachment 336721 Jolteon
View attachment 436294Exeggutor
View attachment 336751 Dusknoir
View attachment 336750 Porygon2
View attachment 436295 Victreebel
View attachment 336727 Snorlax
View attachment 336732 Feraligatr
View attachment 436297 Aggron
View attachment 436298 Alakazam
View attachment 336735 Yanmega
View attachment 436299 Umbreon
View attachment 336759 Walrein
View attachment 336741 Azumarill
View attachment 436300 Muk
View attachment 336734 Staraptor
View attachment 436301Probopass
View attachment 336739 Steelix

Really accurate

 

[togaquest]

S




A+





A








A-










B+







B











B-













C+ and lower grades
pretty much everyone else who has niche use on certain teams and in certain situations like Moltres, Spiritomb, Toxicroak, etc

Comments:
s. Jirachi and Latias sit at the top for obvious reasons - both offer versatility, great offensive and defensive potential, wide movesets. Jira edges on broken due to the fact that it does abuse and win games through hax. However I feel it isn't truly broken, Iron Head chaining is just part of the game at this point and there are strategies to avoid and/or mitigate getting caught in an Iron Head chain. On the other hand I also found the Reflect Latias to be really effective in surviving against Tyranitar, so if you are running a Latias that is integral to your defensive core I recommend like Reflect/Recover/DPulse/Twave in order to make her Tar-resistant. I also find the Choice sets to be the worst Lati variants, with CM in a middle ground between Choice and general defensive/utility sets. The Choice sets are killed off too easily, while the defensive sets maximize Latias's resistances and value to a team. The CM sets fall somewhere in between in the sense that those sets generally require a player to take out her checks and counters before CM Latias can really shine.

i. In my opinion Tyranitar is the weakest of the Big 5 and noticeably below Skarmory and Clefable because I believe it isn't so easy to just stick on your team. He brings a load of weaknesses as well as Sand which forces you to accomadate for that. Skarmory/Clef bring instant utility without too much need for support. Even Tar's trapping sets, while effective, give a turn of set-up to the opposing player, for example Gyarados, Lucario, Breloom etc ... which means you have to accommodate for that as well. Not to mention he is the only member of the Big 5 who is vulnerable to all entry hazards, along w/ Rest as his only recovery move. Honestly one of the more effective Tar sets I've encountered was a Custap one with Crunch/EQ/Ice Beam/something-else mainly due to its surprise factor. But yea I don't think he's as good as many people say he is. However I believe he should be in the Big 5 because his trapping sets warp the tier in the sense that without his CB/CS Crunches and Pursuits the game just wouldn't be the same.

ii. Flygon and Breloom sit atop A because their main "breaker" sets are so effective in combination with useful resistances and immunities allowing them to easily get into play. Their alternative sets are also really good to (Scarf Flygon and Leech Loom). Interestingly I have Starmie much higher than most other players here, primarily due to its Modest Specs set which is such a good early game breaker. Early game it can bait Tyranitar and Rotom and get the OHKO which can turn the tide in your favor instantly from then on. In my opinion, Specs Starmie rivals Specs Latias and is even better in some ways. It has slightly less firepower but Water is better than Dragon offensively imo due to it being super-effective against Tyranitar (Starmie is not as Pursuit-able as Latias is) and neutral against Steels instead of being resisted. Also Starmie baits different mons in comparison to Latias, notably Ghosts which means getting them OHKO'd opens the door for spinning down the line (as well as Gengar if a Scarf Rotom switches into a Hydro Pump). My latest team that peaked the ladder utilized Specs Starmie to break opposing team in the early-game, which opened doors for other special sweepers like Gengar and Latias in the mid and late game. But yea overall Flygon, Breloom, and Starmie are the best breakers in the tier.

iii. Gengar is so high because its SubSplit set w/ LO is so dangerous especially with entry hazards. Pretty much nothing can switch in on it safely on offense with the protection of Sub in combination with the perfect coverage granted by Ghost and Fighting. Blissey/Clef are beaten through Pain Split/Focus Blast meaning Gengar can also break through stall. Gengar is fragile but he has three good immunities in Normal (Seismic Toss immunity), Ground (Earthquake immunity, Spikes immunity), and Fighting (CC, Mach Punch, immune versus Breloom that only have one fighting attack). Obviously the main negative of using Gengar is Focus Blast; the inevitable miss can be catastrophic and lose you the whole game that you played so well up to that point. But overall Gengar is definitely one of the best offensive pressurers in the game. Update: I've been playing with Taunt + Destiny Bond and that is fun to use as well. Also the super-speed of Choice Scarf is sometimes amazing with Spikes and finishing off weakened teams (outspeeding Scarf Rotom and killing with Shadow Ball is cool, as well as Scarf Destiny Bond).

iv. Notably I have Abomasnow so high because I've had a lot of success with its Leech Seed set. It's really easy to get him in versus bulky waters, then annoy the hell out of the opposing team especially if hazards are up. Hail is so good because it damages Steels unlike Sand. Unfortunately Aboma has 90 base HP instead of 100 base HP. If Aboma could create 101 subs he could easily beat Clefable with Focus Punch on the Leech Seed set. As of now I haven't explored other Abomasnow sets but the SD one caught my eye. Overall I've had a lot of good moments with Abomasnow, he just requires support mainly in the form of removing entry hazards and he can really shine. Also want to give a special shoutout to Walrein, who can also be really good in the right hands. His bulk is great and gets a crapton of free turns with Sub/Protect and therefore can eliminate a Pokemon or two for free. Just mentioning this because I used Abomasnow and Walrein together on a pretty successful team.

Update: I just want to say I've been enjoying using SpD Heatran with the set of Lava Plume / Protect / Roar / Explosion. It's a great answer to Jirachi and a great lure for Clefable / Blissey / bulky waters. The rotation of LP + Protect + Roar can lull the opponent into a false sense of security and then BOOM take out the wall you want. Heatran is definitely a solid A tier mon, what holds him back are his big weaknesses to common attacking types (Ground, Fighting, Water).

 

[vapicuno]

This is admittedly one of the strangest VR submissions I have ever seen, with such a huge variation in perceived viability that a significant number of people have ranked Infernape higher than Rotom, even though it is 17 positions lower on average. Speaking to 16bit, I learnt that this could have been because of the DPP Invitational causing renewed interest in DPP (as evidenced by the large number of submissions on this VR) and the impact of some very creative SPL starters. This large variation makes things a bit difficult for the automated algorithm to draw good tier boundaries. Hence I will use the algorithm only as a guide, and draw the tier boundaries based on a visual inspection of the dendrogram and VR plot.

Refer to the previous VR post for brief methodological details, or this post for full explanation.

Hi everyone,

I have worked with 16bit on this year's VR update as per last year. Again, this update will be based on an extension of my original methodology described here, taking inspiration from a previous post by Jorgen. Thanks to BIHI BKC bruno Cubic Skunk Emeral Excal Fakes Gilbert arenas hellpowna Jaxhawk Jirachee johnnyg2 Kristyl Laurel Le Don lele3 mael Malekith Mishimono Monai oiponabys PDC Pideous Seven Thunders SFG Sharow Star Student of Sinnoh twash Zerkas zf 16bit for your rankings. The raw data is in the zip file, but I suppose 16bit might post or edit into this post an online spreadsheet for your convenience.

The average outlier-compensated ranks from everyone are

Aggregate Rankings

01 Jirachi
02 Latias
03 Tyranitar
04 Clefable
05 Skarmory
06 Heatran
07 Breloom
08 Gyarados
09 Metagross
10 Rotom
11 Gengar
12 Flygon
13 Gliscor
14 Hippowdon
15 Dragonite
16 Starmie
17 Zapdos
18 Swampert
19 Empoleon
20 Suicune
21 Azelf
22 Bronzong
23 Scizor
24 Magneton
25 Magnezone
26 Lucario
27 Infernape
28 Machamp
29 Donphan
30 Kingdra
31 Quagsire
32 Celebi
33 Aerodactyl
34 Blissey
35 Roserade
36 Forretress
37 Milotic
38 Mamoswine
39 Uxie
40 Abomasnow
41 Nidoqueen
42 Raikou
43 Gastrodon
44 Togekiss
45 Cresselia
46 Froslass
47 Rhyperior
48 Gallade
49 Camerupt
50 Shaymin
51 Heracross
52 Qwilfish
53 Ludicolo
54 Weavile
55 Slowbro
56 Hariyama
57 Tentacruel
58 Smeargle
59 Crobat
60 Claydol
61 Registeel
62 Vaporeon
63 Cloyster
64 Venusaur
65 Mespirit
66 Hitmontop
67 Kabutops
68 Cradily
69 Blastoise
70 Yanmega
71 Electivire
72 Jolteon
73 Steelix
74 Moltres
75 Spiritomb
76 Snorlax
77 Slowking
78 Staraptor
79 Alakazam
80 Dusknoir
81 Porygon-Z
82 Honchkrow
83 Porygon2
84 Aggron
85 Umbreon
86 Feraligatr
87 Omastar
88 Torterra
89 Azumarill
90 Walrein
91 Exeggutor
92 Hitmonlee
93 Regice
94 Skuntank
95 Sceptile
96 Nidoking
97 Muk
98 Absol
99 Magmortar
100 Toxicroak
101 Probopass
102 Victreebel
103 Ambipom
104 Wailord
105 Magcargo
106 Ariados

Removing Pokemon that are ranked by less than 4 voters yields

Aggregate Rankings

01 Jirachi
02 Latias
03 Tyranitar
04 Clefable
05 Skarmory
06 Heatran
07 Breloom
08 Gyarados
09 Metagross
10 Rotom
11 Gengar
12 Flygon
13 Gliscor
14 Hippowdon
15 Dragonite
16 Starmie
17 Zapdos
18 Swampert
19 Empoleon
20 Suicune
21 Azelf
22 Bronzong
23 Scizor
24 Magneton
25 Magnezone
26 Lucario
27 Infernape
28 Machamp
29 Donphan
30 Kingdra
31 Quagsire
32 Celebi
33 Aerodactyl
34 Blissey
35 Roserade
36 Forretress
37 Milotic
38 Mamoswine
39 Uxie
40 Abomasnow
41 Nidoqueen
42 Raikou
43 Gastrodon
44 Togekiss
45 Cresselia
46 Froslass
47 Rhyperior
48 Gallade
49 Camerupt
50 Shaymin
51 Heracross
52 Qwilfish
53 Ludicolo
54 Weavile
55 Slowbro
56 Hariyama
57 Tentacruel
58 Smeargle
59 Crobat
60 Claydol
61 Registeel
62 Vaporeon
63 Cloyster
64 Venusaur
65 Mespirit
66 Hitmontop
67 Kabutops
68 Cradily
69 Yanmega
70 Electivire
71 Jolteon
72 Steelix
73 Moltres
74 Spiritomb
75 Snorlax
76 Slowking
77 Staraptor
78 Alakazam
79 Dusknoir
80 Porygon-Z
81 Honchkrow
82 Porygon2
83 Aggron
84 Umbreon
85 Feraligatr
86 Omastar
87 Torterra
88 Azumarill
89 Walrein
90 Exeggutor
91 Hitmonlee
92 Regice
93 Skuntank
94 Sceptile
95 Nidoking
96 Muk
97 Absol
98 Magmortar
99 Toxicroak
100 Probopass
101 Victreebel
102 Ambipom
103 Wailord
104 Magcargo
105 Ariados

The aggregate VR tiers obtained are
S1:
S2:
A1:
A2:
B1:
B2:
B3:
C1:
C2:

D, E, F Rank

D:
E:
F:

The most useful graphs are displayed below.

Full VR chart

Zoomed in VR chart

Individual VR correlations

 

[WilhelmTheOkay]

Made this for myself because I find the rank change graph a bit difficult to read, so I'll post this here.

S rank
S1
1. =0Jirachi

S2
2. +1Latias
3. -1Tyranitar

A rank
A1
4. =0Clefable
5. =0Skarmory
6. +2Heatran
7. =0Breloom
8. +2Gyarados

A2
9. =0Metagross

B rank
B1
10. +1Rotom-A
11. +1Gengar
12. -6Flygon

B2
13. +2Gliscor
14. +6Hippowdon
15. +1Dragonite
16. +7Starmie
17. +2Zapdos
18. -5Swampert
19. -1Empoleon
20. +4Suicune
21. =0Azelf
22. =0Bronzong

B3
23. +4:Scizor
24. +12Magneton
25. -8 Magnezone
26. -12Lucario
27. +5Infernape
28. -2Machamp

C Rank
C1
29. +12Donphan
30. +1Kingdra
31. -6Quagsire
32. +6Celebi
33. +6Aerodactyl
34. -4Blissey
35. -7Roserade
36. -7Forretress
37. -4Milotic
38. -3Mamoswine
39. -2Uxie
40. +7Abomasnow

C2
41. -7Nidoqueen
42. +4Raikou
43. -3Gastrodon
44. +5Togekiss
45. +6Cresselia
46. -3Froslass
47. +7Rhyperior
48. =0Gallade

D Rank
49. -4Camerupt
50. =0Shaymin
51. +1Heracross
52. -10Qwilfish
53. -9Ludicolo
54. +3Weavile
55. =0Slowbro
56. *NEW*Hariyama
57. -4Tentacruel
58. +5Smeargle
59. +5Crobat
60. -2Claydol
61. *NEW*Registeel
62. -3Vaporeon
63. *NEW*Cloyster

E Rank
64. -2Venusaur
65. -4Mesprit
66. -6Hitmontop
67. -2Kabutops
68. *NEW*Cradily
69. +7Yanmega
70. *NEW*Electivire
71. -4Jolteon
72. +11 Steelix
73. -17Moltres
74. *NEW*Spiritomb
75. -3Snorlax
76. -10Slowking
77. +4Staraptor
78. -3 Alakazam
79. -10Dusknoir
80. *NEW*Porygon-Z
81. *NEW*Honchkrow
82. -12Porygon2
83. -9Aggron
84. -7Umbreon
85. -12Feraligatr
86. *NEW*Omastar
87. *NEW*Torterra
88. -9Azumarill
89. -11Walrein
90. -22Exeggutor
91. *NEW*Hitmonlee

Largest Drop:Exeggutor -22
Largest Relevant Drop:Lucario -12
Largest Rise:Donphan andMagneton +12

rip A3, we hardly knew ye

 

[Taliheim]

Made this for myself because I find the rank change graph a bit difficult to read, so I'll post this here.

S rank
S1
1. =0Jirachi

S2
2. +1Latias
3. -1Tyranitar

A rank
A1
4. =0Clefable
5. =0Skarmory
6. +2Heatran
7. =0Breloom
8. +2Gyarados

A2
9. =0Metagross

B rank
B1
10. +1Rotom-A
11. +1Gengar
12. -6Flygon

B2
13. +2Gliscor
14. +6Hippowdon
15. +1Dragonite
16. +7Starmie
17. +2Zapdos
18. -5Swampert
19. -1Empoleon
20. +4Suicune
21. =0Azelf
22. =0Bronzong

B3
23. +4:Scizor
24. +12Magneton
25. -8Magnezone
26. -12Lucario
27. +5Infernape
28. -2Machamp

C Rank
C1
29. +12Donphan
30. +1Kingdra
31. -6Quagsire
32. +6Celebi
33. +6Aerodactyl
34. -4Blissey
35. -7Roserade
36. -7Forretress
37. -4Milotic
38. -3Mamoswine
39. -2Uxie
40. +7Abomasnow

C2
41. -7Nidoqueen
42. +4Raikou
43. -3Gastrodon
44. +5Togekiss
45. +6Cresselia
46. -3Froslass
47. +7Rhyperior
48. =0Gallade

D Rank
49. -4Camerupt
50. =0Shaymin
51. +1Heracross
52. -10Qwilfish
53. -9Ludicolo
54. +3Weavile
55. =0Slowbro
56. *NEW*Hariyama
57. -4Tentacruel
58. +5Smeargle
59. +5Crobat
60. -2Claydol
61. *NEW*Registeel
62. -3Vaporeon
63. *NEW*Cloyster

E Rank
64. -2Venusaur
65. -4Mesprit
66. -6Hitmontop
67. -2Kabutops
68. *NEW*Cradily
69. +7Yanmega
70. *NEW*Electivire
71. -4Jolteon
72. +11 Steelix
73. -17Moltres
74. *NEW*Spiritomb
75. -3Snorlax
76. -10Slowking
77. +4Staraptor
78. -3 Alakazam
79. -10Dusknoir
80. *NEW*Porygon-Z
81. *NEW*Honchkrow
82. -12Porygon2
83. -9Aggron
84. -7Umbreon
85. -12Feraligatr
86. *NEW*Omastar
87. *NEW*Torterra
88. -9Azumarill
89. -11Walrein
90. -22Exeggutor
91. *NEW*Hitmonlee

Largest Drop:Exeggutor -22
Largest Relevant Drop:Lucario -12
Largest Rise:Donphan andMagneton +12

rip A3, we hardly knew ye

Due to the nature of the data being worked with, basically the entirety of B tier is trying to distinguish sliiightly different shades of grey, and A tier's not much better, so absolute placement has significantly less value than in other vapi VRs. Basically everything B3 or above is a Good™ pokemon, with C tier being the entry into Niche territory

 

[togaquest]

Has anyone experimented with Hitmonlee? Good attack/spdef, unique speed tier, good ability, good movepool... I feel he could be viable somewhere..

 

[Oatmon]

View attachment 574760

Has anyone experimented with Hitmonlee? Good attack/spdef, unique speed tier, good ability, good movepool... I feel he could be viable somewhere..

Hitmonlee appeared last spl (replay) as a lead with a scarf zapdos in the back. Personally I took a look at it outside the lead with match punch, since together with zapdos, they cover all the relevant dders and spin as a bonus. Plus if scarf zap comes in early, it can score a surprise KO.

I think in the SPL game in particular though, Sakito and their team members wanted to keep rocks off early, and hitmonlee was the only mon that fit. Excal explained their teams reasoning here.

References

SPL replay: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen4ou-675825
Link to Le Don's post which provides a bit more insight: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/spl-xiv-dpp-discussion.3714192/post-9519101
Link/quote from the authors of the team: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/spl-xiv-dpp-discussion.3714192/post-9568544

 

[AngryPidgeon]

Hitmonlee appeared last spl (replay) as a lead with a scarf zapdos in the back. Personally I took a look at it outside the lead with match punch, since together with zapdos, they cover all the relevant dders and spin as a bonus. Plus if scarf zap comes in early, it can score a surprise KO.

I dunno guys, I like running altmons, but I never see hitmonlee. Hitmontop gets intimidate for the free stat drop without having to do a bulk up (and risk getting taunted).

Paralysis immunity is for azelf? But azelf wont waste a tempo and if it runs psychic (which is uncommon but very viable) then its over. Denying stealthrock at the cost of a mon is almost never worth it.

 

[afterburn]

I dunno guys, I like running altmons, but I never see hitmonlee. Hitmontop gets intimidate for the free stat drop without having to do a bulk up (and risk getting taunted).

Paralysis immunity is for azelf? But azelf wont waste a tempo and if it runs psychic (which is uncommon but very viable) then its over. Denying stealthrock at the cost of a mon is almost never worth it.

Hitmonlee is legit. It’s not top 10 by any means, but as an anti-lead it’s worth it. Having a lead that can deny rocks in DPP especially is always worth it for offense. If having a mon purely to get rocks up is worth it, so is having one purely to deny them. That’s the worth of SR.

T-wave leads on ladder will almost always try and para as many things as possible, esp something as fast as Lee. 300 is damn good speed. Also, usually people don’t realize Lee gets Limber.. or Rapid Spin for that matter, so the surprise factor definitely helps.

 

[AngryPidgeon]

My hot take on current DPP OU. I didn't dump a lot of Mons in the C-tier, I spread them around a bit more. I think my S/A+/A tiers are not terribly controversial but buckle up cause there are some hot takes after those.

Yes I think Rhyperior is that good. Here are some relevant cherry picked calcs to defend my position:
+1 252 Atk Tyranitar Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Solid Rock Rhyperior: 201-237 (54.1 - 63.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Infernape Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Solid Rock Rhyperior: 301-355 (81.1 - 95.6%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Rhyperior Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Rotom-Heat: 267-315 (110.7 - 130.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Rhyperior Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Latias: 310-366 (85.1 - 100.5%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Yep, Aerodactyl and Weavile are all the way down in B- below things like Togekiss, Froslass, Slowbro. I see a lot of people running Weavile at low ladder and what I inevitably always see is the other player switching into something like Metagross, and Weavile's Ice Punch bounces off and it takes as much damage from LO as it deals to Metagross. Then it gets chunked by spikes/sand/poison/rock and dies. High ladder players run all sorts of random techs but they never run Weavile. If you want a pursuiter, TTar is the man and thats how it is and how it will be. Aerodactyl is somewhat better than Weavile but here is typically how my interactions with opposing Aeros go:
T1: Aero uses Taunt, Empoleon fell for the taunt! Empoleon used Surf, its super effective! Aero hung on using its focus sash!
T2: Empoleon used Aqua Jet, its super effective! Aero fainted!
Basically don't run Aero unless you are matchup fishing for Azelf. Being weak to SR and being frail and wasting precious tempo on a taunt just to get pounded is awful. I think Aero is possibly better than I gave it credit for, but Im rating it based on how I see it used on ladder, which is to say terribly. Again, high ladder players dont run that garbage.

I also think Celebi is overrated. Not that many people run it anyways, but I feel it has to run HP:fire to be relevant at all. There are better mons for threatening T-wave (clef, bliss, rotom, etc etc) or setting SR. Being susceptible to spikes/sr/t-spikes as a support/defense oriented mon is not a good look. At least it can recover, but then it has to run away the hard way to avoid getting annihilated by a u-turn from Infernape or whatever. Lets add Swampert to the overrated list while we are at it. Swampert isn't bad, exactly, but it lacks a recovery and gets chunked by spikes and poison. I feel that Swampert doesn't pose enough of an offensive threat, it answers things like Metagross in theory, but Meta will just swap out to a ground immune or explode on you. If you want an electric immune, there are plenty of other great options. Jolteon is pretty solid and outspeeds a ton of common offensive threats.

 

[WAZZUPYOSHI]

Having Sciz above Gyara/Loom and Tran below Nape are fucking crack takes if I've ever seen them.

Yep, Aerodactyl and Weavile are all the way down in B- below things like Togekiss, Froslass, Slowbro. I see a lot of people running Weavile at low ladder and what I inevitably always see is the other player switching into something like Metagross, and Weavile's Ice Punch bounces off and it takes as much damage from LO as it deals to Metagross. Then it gets chunked by spikes/sand/poison/rock and dies. High ladder players run all sorts of random techs but they never run Weavile. If you want a pursuiter, TTar is the man and thats how it is and how it will be. Aerodactyl is somewhat better than Weavile but here is typically how my interactions with opposing Aeros go:
T1: Aero uses Taunt, Empoleon fell for the taunt! Empoleon used Surf, its super effective! Aero hung on using its focus sash!
T2: Empoleon used Aqua Jet, its super effective! Aero fainted!
Basically don't run Aero unless you are matchup fishing for Azelf. Being weak to SR and being frail and wasting precious tempo on a taunt just to get pounded is awful. I think Aero is possibly better than I gave it credit for, but Im rating it based on how I see it used on ladder, which is to say terribly. Again, high ladder players dont run that garbage.

I feel like you're downplaying Aero a little bit, it's prolly the most braindead way to "guarantee" your hazards without being a complete MU fish/momentum sink. It's kinda one note, but it is perfect for an HO noob like me. If Lead Scarftar "works", then so can Aero.
Weav however, as I've said many times in DPPCord, is complete dogshit ass. It does offer role compression (as per Goats: "Pursuit, checking dtar with low kick, and nite with shard in one mon without a scarf"), but I would rather spread that across 2 actually viable mons than use a mon with about zero offensive presence and negative defensive utility. Putting it in your B- I think is pretty generous for it tbh.

Lets add Swampert to the overrated list while we are at it. Swampert isn't bad, exactly, but it lacks a recovery and gets chunked by spikes and poison. I feel that Swampert doesn't pose enough of an offensive threat, it answers things like Metagross in theory, but Meta will just swap out to a ground immune or explode on you. If you want an electric immune, there are plenty of other great options. Jolteon is pretty solid and outspeeds a ton of common offensive threats.

Swampert is fine, it clicks buttons decently and is a decent glue on bulkier teams. Really needs that support against Loom tho, which I feel can be hard to fit.
"Jolteon is pretty solid" I feel like even after the BP unban it's probably just going to be shitty Raikou, the extra speed doesn't really do much for it since you don't beat any of the DDers or base 70 scarfers. What I will probably be unnecessarily high on is Vaporeon, given it can pass 101 HP subs (assuming subpass gets unbanned) and actually has the moveslots to do so (unlike Celebi), something like Sub/Pass/Wish/filler in combo with something like DDNite I think could cook.

View attachment 574760

Has anyone experimented with Hitmonlee? Good attack/spdef, unique speed tier, good ability, good movepool... I feel he could be viable somewhere..

I personally haven't seen anything cool done with it, but I think it definitely could work. Seems really hard to build around.

 

[george182]

I noticed that Frosslass was ranked C2, I have personally found it unviable since the Snow Cloak ban.

 

[Sevenor3]

IMO Mismagius is deserving of a spot in the E rank for its nasty plot/shadow ball/hp fighting/filler set. finding nasty plot turns isnt too difficult thanks to its trio of immunities and especially the fact that it has 40 more spdef than gar. my only real credentials with it is success around the 1500 elo mark, so i'd understand if im missing something, but i believe its combination of traits at least puts it in the same realm as mons like honchkrow

 

[Sevenor3]

Ba

IMO Mismagius is deserving of a spot in the E rank for its nasty plot/shadow ball/hp fighting/filler set. finding nasty plot turns isnt too difficult thanks to its trio of immunities and especially the fact that it has 40 more spdef than gar. my only real credentials with it is success around the 1500 elo mark, so i'd understand if im missing something, but i believe its combination of traits at least puts it in the same realm as mons like honchkrow

backing this up with a bit of evidence, and reasons to use it over gengar/what shifts in the meta led to it becoming better than it was

-a better matchup into all rapid spinners: can set up a NP on donphan, forre, tentacruel and especially claydol. Cant set one up on starmie, but you live lorb hydro pump after rocks one round of sand with minimal investment, while gengar struggles to do the same off of leftovers damage.

-rise in clefable over blisseyis good for mismagius more than gengar. Clef cant do worse than a knock and a twave, allowing for more np turns, while gengar uses taunt and focus blast to break through clef, allowing more pivot opportunities for the clef player. Gengar does better into blissey, who is facing a downwards trend. The general prescence of nasty plot makes walling it a sketchy task in general

-infernape is dropping off in usage, which is one of the large reasons that gengars extra 5 speed matters (alongside adamant ddtar, enemy gengar and latias) and plenty of the infernapes that do exist are evd to be 330 and outspeed base 100 max speed investments, which misdreavous can outspeed

-better matchup into non scarfed tyranitar, as hpfighting has a 100% chance to ohko after a NP as opposed to gengar relying on focus blast (this is admittedly a point ive considered less)

 

[UltraSword]

I am just looking at all of these viability rankings on the last page of the forum and I have only seen weavile on like one list. Why the hell is this pokemon ou still then? And more importantly why is no one attempting to experiment with it? I personally think we should try to innovate weavile more because it feels unexplored to me.

 

[Planet]

I am just looking at all of these viability rankings on the last page of the forum and I have only seen weavile on like one list. Why the hell is this pokemon ou still then? And more importantly why is no one attempting to experiment with it? I personally think we should try to innovate weavile more because it feels unexplored to me.

The tiering for DPP locked after the gen ended which is why its still listed as OU. Also, low usage does not mean a mon is unexplored. Nobody's experimenting with it because it suffers from having pitiful STAB options which lead to it hitting like a wet napkin, that along with a rocks weakness and its fragility it makes for a very underwhelming setup sweeper. It has pursuit but is also severely outclassed by other pursuit users.