Gen 4 DPP OU Viability Rankings: mk. IV

Now featuring 100% more Latias.


DPP OU Viability Rankings


S Rank
Jirachi
Tyranitar

A+ Rank
Heatran
Rotom-A
Skarmory
Starmie
Breloom
Swampert
Latias
Infernape
Clefable

A Rank
Metagross
Gyarados
Gliscor
Zapdos
Gengar
Dragonite
Flygon
Bronzong
Empoleon

A- Rank
Magnezone
Nidoqueen
Suicune
Machamp
Lucario
Kingdra
Roserade
Azelf
Milotic
Dugtrio
Blissey

B+ Rank
Uxie
Hippowdon
Celebi
Scizor

B Rank
Heracross
Raikou
Shaymin
Mamoswine
Abomasnow
Crobat
Togekiss
Quagsire
Forretress

B- Rank
Gastrodon
Cresselia
Venusaur
Rhyperior
Jolteon
Tentacruel
Aerodactyl

C+ Rank
Vaporeon
Gallade
Weavile
Snorlax
Mesprit
Froslass
Hitmontop
Feraligatr
Moltres
Staraptor

C Rank
Yanmega
Slowbro
Slowking
Donphan
Steelix

C- Rank
Kabutops
Azumarill
Qwilfish
Ludicolo
Nidoking
Camerupt
Walrein
Spiritomb
Cradily
Porygon2
Dusknoir

Lead Ranking

S Rank

:metagross: Metagross

A+ Rank
:azelf: Azelf
:empoleon: Empoleon
:machamp: Machamp
:jirachi: Jirachi

A Rank
:swampert: Swampert
:uxie: Uxie
:zapdos: Zapdos
:roserade: Roserade
:heatran: Heatran

A- Rank
:starmie: Starmie
:raikou: Raikou
:dragonite: Dragonite
:gyarados: Gyarados

B+ Rank
:skarmory: Skarmory
:bronzong: Bronzong
:hippowdon: Hippowdon
:tyranitar: Tyranitar

B Rank
:rotom: Rotom-A
:aerodactyl: Aerodactyl
:nidoqueen: Nidoqueen
:flygon: Flygon
:latias: Latias

B- Rank
:gallade: Gallade
:mesprit: Mesprit
:breloom: Breloom
:infernape: Infernape
:yanmega: Yanmega
:celebi: Celebi
:scizor: Scizor
:vaporeon: Vaporeon
:gliscor: Gliscor
:crobat: Crobat
:froslass: Froslass
:clefable: Clefable
:blissey: Blissey
:suicune: Suicune
 
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A brief explanation of my rationale behind this starting point:

Jirachi and Tyranitar are the only S ranks thanks to their unrivaled impact on the landscape of DPP through their near-irreplaceable utility on both offense and defense. Jirachi dictates so much of the metagame with its numerous powerful Iron Head sets, while Tyranitar's sand, monstrous bulk and versatility are as critical as ever.

Breloom and Infernape remaining in A+ with Latias around may seem strange but I assure you they deserve this rank. If Lati's running Leftovers it's going to get Pursuited with ridiculous ease; remember that Pursuit was quite a crucial component of supporting these two even before Lati. If it's not running Leftovers it's not as easy to immediately Pursuit but it also struggles to even switch into Ape and Loom to begin with, getting thumped by their attacks with rocks and sand. This applies mostly to the increasingly popular special MixApe with Leftovers, meaning it's not getting worn down while hitting Latias on the switch, since the Band sets of course pack U-turn. Latias hardly impedes either of these two from messing with the popular defensive teams and feasting on the offensive water trend - Breloom is self explanatory, while Infernape enjoys the waters losing bulk, allowing it to more easily pummel them with Grass Knot or Banded CC. Both of them of course have Mach Punch, which is valuable as ever.

These flaws of Latias' are why I have it as low as A as opposed to the general consensus of A+ or even S. I really don't think it's all that good. The detriments outlined in the previous paragraph are a big reason why - if it's choiced it gets worn down switching into attacks so Pursuit isn't even that necessary, without Specs it is weak as hell, and even with Specs it gets walled quite easily by what were already some of the best, most suffocating defensive Pokemon and combinations in the meta. If you play aggressively enough to where it's not eating attacks as it comes in, then it becomes a much better Draco bomber, but the same could be said for Dragonite, which is also a lot more punishing in its versatility.

Speaking of A, Swampert unleashing its offensive side has propelled it to a far more prominent place in the meta and earned it the topmost rank here ahead of some really important Pokemon, which speaks to how effective it's become. Gyarados is ranked highly since in addition to CB and DD sets being fearsome weapons, Intimidate alongside its excellent defensive typing is crucial in giving offensive teams a backbone. The power of semistall has seen Clefable, Gliscor, Nidoqueen and Bronzong earn A rank as well, with Zong also being great on offense thanks to its ability to thwart threatening Pokes and launch a powerful offensive assault in return.

Former A+ constituents Zapdos and Dragonite have dropped significantly in metagame impact and thus in the ranks as well. This is not because they are not excellent Pokemon, but because they are not as easy to use - they have huge potential upside but can be stonewalled (Zap) or worn down incredibly quickly (Nite) by these powerful semistall teams. They also face competition with Latias and are sometimes checked by it. Personally, I think people will remember the tools these two have and as a result just how fearsome they can be, but for now they are more at home in A.

Magnezone's seen a large spike in general usability, and thus leads off A- rank. Killing Skarm is crucial with how strong semistall is, it can take out or at least severely cripple the Jirachi variants that pressure the metagame so hard, and with Magnet Rise, it beats defensive Bronzong. We even see a decent number of defensive Empoleon these days. This is a ton of utility, and it's now got Specs Latias to take advantage of this steel killing.

Milotic, Dugtrio and Uxie are now truly parts of the metagame; they are effective, people know it, and thus they deserve B+ rank.
 
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Oldamar999

Tien Time
is a Pre-Contributor
A brief explanation of my rationale behind this starting point:

Jirachi and Tyranitar are the only S ranks thanks to their unrivaled impact on the landscape of DPP through their near-irreplaceable utility on both offense and defense. Jirachi dictates so much of the metagame with its numerous powerful Iron Head sets, while Tyranitar's sand, monstrous bulk and versatility are as critical as ever.

Breloom and Infernape remaining in A+ with Latias around may seem strange but I assure you they deserve this rank. If Lati's running Leftovers it's going to get Pursuited with ridiculous ease; remember that Pursuit was quite a crucial component of supporting these two even before Lati. If it's not running Leftovers it's not as easy to immediately Pursuit but it also struggles to even switch into Ape and Loom to begin with, getting thumped by their attacks with rocks and sand. This applies mostly to the increasingly popular special MixApe with Leftovers, meaning it's not getting worn down while beating Latias down, because the Band sets of course pack U-turn. Latias hardly impedes either of these two from messing with the popular defensive teams and feasting on the offensive water trend - Breloom is self explanatory, while Infernape enjoys the waters losing bulk, allowing it to more easily pummel them with Grass Knot or Banded CC. Both of them of course have Mach Punch, which is valuable as ever.

These flaws of Latias' are why I have it as low as A as opposed to the general consensus of A+ or even S. I really don't think it's all that good. The detriments outlined in the previous paragraph are a big reason why - if it's choiced it gets worn down switching into attacks so Pursuit isn't even that necessary, without Specs it is weak as hell, and even with Specs it gets walled quite easily by what were already some of the best, most suffocating defensive Pokemon and combinations in the meta. If you play aggressively enough to where it's not eating attacks as it comes in, then it becomes a much better Draco bomber, but the same could be said for Dragonite, which is also a lot more punishing in its versatility.

Speaking of A, Swampert unleashing its offensive side has propelled it to a far more prominent place in the meta and it earned it the topmost rank here ahead of some really important Pokemon, which speaks to how effective it's become. Gyarados is ranked highly since in addition to CB and DD sets being fearsome weapons, Intimidate alongside its excellent defensive typing is crucial in giving offensive teams a backbone. The power of semistall has seen Clefable, Gliscor, Nidoqueen and Bronzong earn A rank as well, with Zong also being great on offense with its ability to stop big Pokemon and launch a powerful offensive assault in return.

Former A+ constituents Zapdos and Dragonite have dropped significantly in metagame impact and thus in the ranks as well. This is not because they are not excellent Pokemon, but because they are not as easy to use - they have huge potential upside but can be stonewalled (Zap) or worn down incredibly quickly (Nite) by these powerful semistall teams. They also face competition with Latias and are sometimes checked by. Personally, I think people will remember the tools these two have and as a result just how fearsome they can be, but for now they are more at home in A.

Magnezone's seen a large spike in general usability, and thus leads off A- rank. Killing Skarm is crucial with how strong semistall is, it can go take out or at least severely cripple with the Jirachi variants that pressure the metagame so hard, and with Magnet Rise, it beats defensive Bronzong. We even see a decent number of defensive Empoleon these days. This is a ton of utility, and it's now got Specs Latias to take advantage of this steel killing.

Milotic, Dugtrio and Uxie are now truly parts of the metagame; they are effective, people know it, and thus they deserve B+ rank.
I'm not sure if this is a question I should ask, but I am curious about 2 things.

1. why did Scizor, Shaymin, and Aerodactyl drop so far? they were A+, A, and A- in the last VR and now they're B+ and B-, that's a pretty significant drop but you didn't explain why they dropped as far as they did. I'm not being rude here, i'm just curious about such a big fall from these mons.

2. how come Dusknoir rose this time? what improved for this mon to make it C-? I know D to C- isn't a big improvement but it's still better than D.
 
Could you elaborate a bit more on why Empoleon is A rank? You mention that people are running defensive sets on it now, while I'm aware it is a good water resist and has access to SR, this isn't sufficient reason (on its own) for Empoleon to receive A rank.

2. how come Dusknoir rose this time? what improved for this mon to make it C-? I know D to C- isn't a big improvement but it's still better than D.
The increase in offensive sets of Dusknor made it rise. It is able to take a hit, and possesses high enough attack to check many common Pokemon; such as the Rotom appliances, Gengar, Dragonite, Flygon, Starmie, Scizor and others. Since it cannot trap these Pokemon however, a simple switch or u-turn can cancel its effectiveness, leaving it in C-.
 
1. why did Scizor, Shaymin, and Aerodactyl drop so far? they were A+, A, and A- in the last VR and now they're B+ and B-, that's a pretty significant drop but you didn't explain why they dropped as far as they did. I'm not being rude here, i'm just curious about such a big fall from these mons.
Scizor: The bulky SD set has lost its prominence in the metagame, in part because it's harder to make work. It's tough to wear down and get past the Fire Punch Jirachi on everyone's team. It's also not helped by semistall teams packing tons of natural checks together (Skarm, Nido, Rotom, Glis, FP Jira, Haze Milo, bulky Emp, bulky Tran), and some of the Pokemon rising to deal with semistall are also good against it (Magnezone, CB Pert/Gyara, Will-o-Wisp Gengar). Sciz of course has all the potential in the world to make people fear this set again, both in its own movepool and with partners to facilitate it. Its Choiced sets aren't bad at all either, especially Band. However, right now we're not seeing any of this potential - all we're seeing is Sciz not having the impact on the meta it did before.

Shaymin: Another casualty of Clef semistall. Even if Shay does get lucky with its inaccurate low PP Seed Flares dropping Clef's SpDef right away there's still the followup Jira/Zong to switch in after and then Clef can probably come back in drop-free to heal up unless you're predicting like a maniac. Repeat if necessary. Protect throws a huge wrench in it. Also, Jira/Zong can easily be the initial switch and there goes a Seed Flare PP since you're not going to HP Fire/Leech Seed uselessly into the obvious Clef switch. On top of this, to do any meaningful damage you pretty much need not just max SpAtk, but also Modest. Not a lot of people are really into that. The potential is definitely there - Shaymin is hilariously good against water spam and trap teams. However, right now it's just not impacting the metagame enough because it struggles with one of its most prominent aspects.

Aerodactyl: Life Orb set hates the metagame filled with Breloom, Bronzong, Impish Ice Fang Gliscor, Swampert and even bulky Jirachi - as a result, it hasn't been seen in years. Lead set's good but does not have the impact of an A- Pokemon - it's one-dimensional and struggles with Starmie, unlike Azelf.

2. how come Dusknoir rose this time? what improved for this mon to make it C-? I know D to C- isn't a big improvement but it's still better than D.
I got rid of D rank, SOMALIA has shown 'noir isn't that bad, figured it was worth tossing in

Could you elaborate a bit more on why Empoleon is A rank? You mention that people are running defensive sets on it now, while I'm aware it is a good water resist and has access to SR, this isn't sufficient reason (on its own) for Empoleon to receive A rank.
It's one of the best leads in the metagame, killing something against offense while reliably forcing defense onto the back foot and getting SR. It's the only Pokemon in the meta to resist both Draco Meteor and Surf, making it excellent against both Latias and Kingdra, which is great utility for defensive teams, especially since it also stuffs the most common Jirachi sets and gets Knock Off to harass other defensive teams. Its Agility sets are gg machines when set up, which they get plenty of opportunity to do thanks to its multitude of resistances, and they can viably run any of Shuca, Chople or Wacan to make taking it out even harder. Empoleon is definitely one of the best, most important Pokemon in the current meta.
 

Excal

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This VR is fantastic, really appreciate the work you put into this. As seen by the recent updates in GSC and ADV viability rankings, nobody's VR is really going to look the exact same, so it'd be awesome to see some other DPPers chime in here. I'd just like to share some quick thoughts about the updated VR and some noticeable changes. I've observed some people speculating that the significant changes in the VR are due to the presence of Latias, but honestly Latias doesn't change a ton of it for the reasons BKC mentioned in his explanation. Anyway, here are some quite subjective thoughts, as a VR created only by one person is inevitably going to be subjective to an extent.

S Rank:
I completely agree here, Jirachi and Tyranitar are by a clear mile the meta-defining Pokemon of DPP; they deserve their own tier for sure. Jirachi's typing, stats, and gargantuan movepool give it by far the most versatility in the tier. To me Jirachi is the #1 Pokemon in DPP OU, and Tyranitar a close second.

A+ Rank:
Heatran, Starmie, Rotom, Infernape, and Breloom all definitely belong here. Ape and Loom are just as good as they were, like BKC said. I think Skarmory shouldn't be here, however. With the rise in popularity of Thunder Jirachi, more offensive Swamperts with Hydro Pump, Gliscor, and Magnezone, I feel that Skarmory, while it is an unbelievable Pokemon and by a very far mile the best Spikes user in the tier, is not on the same tier as tremendous breakers like Infernape and Breloom, nor does it have the utility of Pokemon like Rotom, Starmie, and Heatran. In practice Skarmory can be pressured very hard through aggressive play (and even physical perts + Gyarados), and while Spikes are incredible I don't feel that they are monumental enough to the DPP landscape to warrant Skarmory as an A+ mon, but hey maybe I'm crazy. I understand why it's in A+ but I think that's a bit overrated.

Imo, Skarmory A+ > A (or lowest in A+)

A Rank:
Also looking good, the rise in Clefable, Gliscor, Empoleon, and Bronzong here is definitely noticeable. Swampert leading the A rank is very fitting, as offensive sets have been fantastic and people are bringing back CursePert and some other cool sets. The "Tank" set is p terrible but at least can do very well vs certain offensive builds.

I think Latias has slightly more counterplay to Tyranitar than provided in BKC's explanation. Leftovers sets with Reflect can make it quite difficult to be trapped by Tyranitar's Pursuit, and Trick + Flame Orb is an extremely underused/underrated set that does a nice job in baiting Tyranitar early game. Tyranitar has to be careful about things like Expert Belt Grass Knot and needs to sacrifice a lot of its speed in order to tank two Draco Meteors from Latias, which may also be a factor in the increased usage of OTRZong + CBTar as a core (not that this wasn't used before obviously). While Latias fits into the mold of DPP well, it still actively shapes the metagame around it tremendously. Thunder Wave + Reflect sets, while quite bad versus certain stall builds, can both support very strong threats to stall like Specs Water-types, CBTar, Swampert, Breloom, Gengar, Metagross, etc. Obviously alone this kind of set will not make dents in stall but it's an incredible support set that's equipped to be difficult for Tyranitar to trap and also lasts a long time, taking advantage of its amazing simultaneous resistances in Water, Fire, Grass, Fighting, Electric, and even Psychic-type. On top of that, its versatility is only rivaled by that of Tyranitar, Jirachi, and Heatran. It can run so many different types of sets, and maybe I overrate it a bit, but I strongly feel that it's underrated by many solely because it's susceptible to Tyranitar. Latias' unique typing, hazard resistance, and higher SpA, despite being susceptible to Tyranitar does not make it a worse "Draco Bomber" than Dragonite (maybe that wasn't implied by BKC's post). Granted, once a Latias set is properly scouted, it becomes much easier to play against, but even Sleep Talk sets (Specs, Scarf, Expert Belt, even some bulky Sleep Talk variants), can function as unbelievable team glue and maximizes the strength of the other Pokemon while opening the doors for a tremendous number of team possibilities. Rain Dance sets also have extremely high potential for weather-clearing abilities. It was nice to see Philip7086 using it effectively in WCoP. I've been using Rain Dance on Scarf Latias as a fourth move to support stuff like SubCM Suicune, Raikou, Black Sludge Gengar, etc. Latias is an incredible support Pokemon that, while not altering the foundation of DPP's metagame, largely impacts it, and I'd say it deserves A+.

Nidoqueen in A surprises me. Nidoqueen is great but has many flaws that I think should push it down to A- or even B+. Its lack of reliable healing, its susceptibility to burns, underwhelming attack stats, inability to fit more than 2 attacking moves, and only average defenses definitely hold it back. It gets chipped super easily. On top of that it often can be quite the momentum sink, allowing Pokemon like Skarmory and Roserade to set up hazards as well as sweepers like Calm Mind Suicune, DDGyara, sometimes even DDNite and Calm Mind Clefable. I don't need to go over its positive traits here, but in a metagame where Toxic Spikes are antimeta, more offensive Swamperts are running rampant, and Spikes themselves have improved, it's hard to see how Nidoqueen has improved as a Pokemon. Not to mention that the re-entry of Latias has promoted Spikes and Toxic Spikes resistant teams tremendously. I think Nidoqueen is incredible and has more versatility than people think, but I don't think it has stepped up a tier since the last VR.

I think that Metagross might be A+ worthy, but I'm not entirely set on it. To me, Metagross is the best lead in the entire game. It also has counterplay to its common checks with less common sets like Trick + Iron Ball (underrated), unexplored Mixed sets, the justifiably more popular Choice Scarf set, etc. Its typing and high defense makes it very nice vs Tyranitar and easily one of the strongest Jirachi checks. It's extremely "splashable" and the Agility set has even improved because Latias supports it extremely well, similarly to how it supports Lucario.

Lucario in A- also surprises me. Lucario is honestly one of the most difficult Pokemon to account for consistently in team builder. It has not that many options to stop it, and because of the ubiquity of Tyranitar, it will always get at least one chance in game. It doesn't even need to set up, it is just so difficult to switch into Lucario. Shuca Berry with Ice Punch, some of the special attacking sets, and especially Choice Scarf should be used a bit more. Latias and Lucario is an incredible offensive core, and as such Latias' re-entry into the metagame only strongly benefits Lucario. Fire Punch Jirachi is a great Luc check but it cannot switch in safely, which is why I think Luc deserves to be A rank.

Imo,
Latias A > A+
Metagross A > A+
(or higher in A)
Lucario: A- > A
Nidoqueen: A > A-


A- Rank:
I agree with the A- rank presented. Magnezone and Suicune certainly lead the A- tier, it's nice to see Blissey still remaining in A- (it's underrated rn for sure), and I'm fine with Roserade in A-, although some may feel it should be in B+ I think. The only thing that I think deserves to be in A- is Hippowdon, which is the best defensive check to Tyranitar in the entire metagame. Hippowdon's weird because I think it's a bit harder to fit onto teams nowadays with the extreme increase in Swampert's popularity, but it's still such an incredible defensive Pokemon for many other reasons. It's also probably one of the most cheese-proof Pokemon in the game, making it extremely hard for teams that would like the weather cleared to do so due to Hippo's longevity and that it really can't be trapped consistently/successfully often.

Imo, Hippowdon B+ > A-

B+ Rank:

Looks good. Shaymin and Celebi definitely belong in B+. I completely disagree with comments about Shaymin and Celebi becoming significantly worse solely because of Latias in the tier (which I probably had made in some of my dumber posts a few months back). Regarding Celebi, Toxic Spikes being anti-meta actually increases its consistency. Latias definitely does not replace Celebi in the teambuilder, as I think someone mentioned. Swampert and Breloom's high usage and Water-type's rise in offensive presence makes Celebi an incredibly nice user of Stealth Rock, forcing Starmie out completely. It's really nice on Bulky Offense and even has high potential on Semi-Stall builds. I'd like to see more people use it. Milotic is also incredible and definitely deserves its increased B+ rank, but has its flaws that prevent it from not quite reaching the A- range.

Imo, I wouldn't change anything here, all Pokemon listed deserve to be in B+ (well except Hippo but I mentioned that already).

B Rank:
Here is the tier of those eccentric Pokemon that have amazing traits but have some unfortunate stuff holding them back. I love Raikou in DPP OU but Sand just makes it so much more difficult for it to successfully do its job (hence why I think it's really nice when paired with Rain Dance Latias, been having a lot of fun experimenting with those kinds of builds). To me, the B rank feels like all the Pokemon that in theory are fucking awesome, but can't really fit onto too many teams, like I kind of mentioned before. The one thing I'd say is that, maybe I'm in the minority here, but I think Forretress is absolute garbage. It's incredibly matchup dependent, can't even really handle Tyranitar because it doesn't resist Rock, has a very hard time consistently getting its hazards up imo, and if it faces any sort of Rest Talk Rotom full stall build, a build that depends on Forretress to spin pretty much loses at matchup. It's extremely difficult to consistently trap Rest Talk Rotom. It can obviously be pulled off with immaculate play but ScarfTar is an awkward fit on a lot of builds nowadays and there are still a lot of 50/50 scenarios there. Payback doesn't do enough and Forretress can be exploited by so much of the metagame. I've seen decent Forry builds with Dugtrio and Blissey/Clef and I know its role compression is great but idk it can role compress sure but it's so inconsistent, most threats in the metagame can do significant damage and chip it, and its inability to heal properly without Protect means it optimally only really has room for one entry hazard anyway.

Imo, Forretress B > B-

B- Rank:

I'm a fan of Aero and I think the LO set fits well with Magnezone, but I kind of agree tbh. Aero as a lead is an extremely awkward fit in builder imo, even though it's really good and does really nicely vs Azelf (unless Azelf U-Turns into something with priority. I really think lead aero should almost always be paired with mag as well). Snorlax is horrible. I can't see a reason to ever use Snorlax over Tyranitar, which it directly competes with. The Curse set sucks too, Miltank is legit a better Curse user than Snorlax and so is Tyranitar lol. It can boom but defensive Rotom is much more popular and also will commonly enter in on Snorlax. The boom set by virtue is its main niche but still could you ever justify using it over Tyranitar? Hard x, Snorlax is so bad it doesn't even deserve to be in B-. The rest I agree with for sure.

Imo, Snorlax B- > C- (lol)

There's not much to comment on about the C+ and C ranks except that maybe a few Pokemon deserve to be ranked and also I think Vaporeon is tremendously underrated. The Choice Specs set is really good, as Vaporeon is one of the strongest special attacking waters in the game and can really put a huge dent in many stall builds. Water Absorb is an amazing ability too, which allows it to get even more chances. The Wish+Tect set is probably not that bad, seeing as it can actually wall a pretty decent number of Pokemon, but it's way too passive and gets taken advantage of way too easily. But the Choice Specs set alone, which can use unique moves like Wish, Baton Pass, etc, is not possibly C- tier. Vaporeon deserves B- imo. I'm very glad Mesprit was ranked, I think it's actually a pretty neat Pokemon.

Ty for reading, I kinda wrote this quickly so if anyone wants any clarification lmk. I'm really happy we got a VR update and I'm looking forward to more discussion. Thanks again.
 
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I think Skarm is too high. With Magnezone being all over the place now I would place it at in the A- class. The rest I can understand your reasoning behing it.
 
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I think Skarm is too high. With Magnezone being all over the place now I would place it at in the A- class. The rest I can understand your reasoning behing it.
The other way of looking at this is that Skarmory is one of the few steels that can viably run Shed Shell, making it actually one of the best answers to Magnezone + partner. Roost means that Skarm can viably go without Leftovers and do an alright job countering what it needs to.

By comparison, Bronzong typically doesn't like Shed Shell, so loses to Magnet Rise Magnezone. Jirachi has to be offensive with HP Ground, or have U-turn to consistently come out on top. Scizor has to be very fast, or win a lot of 50:50s with U-turn. Heatran can't consistently beat Dragonite and Flygon due to EQ.

If anything, the fact that DragMag is a thing is one of the bigger boons to Skarmory, as nothing else can use Shed Shell as viably as it can.
 
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Excal

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The other way of looking at this is that Skarmory is one of the few steels that can viably run Shed Shell, making it actually one of the best answers to Magnezone + partner. Roost means that Skarm can viably go without Leftovers and do an alright job countering what it needs to.
Shed Shell Skarm suuuuuuucks. I use it very rarely but man it makes Skarmory significantly worse at countering what it needs to. Stuff like physical attacking Swampert, Dragon Dance Gyarados, etc will pressure Shed Shell Skarmory much more than before. It can even get 2HKO'd by CroCune's surf after rocks before it even sets up a Calm Mind (not a roll vs Skarm with no SpD). On top of that, with Knock Off Clefable and Gliscor everywhere to actually get rid of Skarm's item alongside Magnezone makes it even worse at doing what it's supposed to do. That said, no one should be running a build that completely depends on Magnezone alone to trap Skarm, and I think less people are doing that anyway. I'm leaning toward the position that I'd literally rather be trapped by the mag than have to use Shed Shell. Basically, I don't think Shed Shell increases Skarmory's viability.

By comparison, Bronzong typically doesn't like Shed Shell, so loses to Magnet Rise Magnezone.
I haven't used it, but maybe some Stealth Rock Bronzong sets can run it, seeing as many of them often run a Berry of some sort. I wouldn't do it but I think a build that desperately wants its Bronzong could consider it. Alternatively, Bronzong can use Gravity to beat Magnet Rise Magnezone if it really wanted to.

Jirachi has to be offensive with HP Ground, or have U-turn to consistently come out on top. Scizor has to be very fast, or win a lot of 50:50s with U-turn. Heatran can't consistently beat Dragonite and Flygon due to EQ.
I think this should be reworded to: "Magnezone has to have a lot of Special Attack investment to 2HKO Offensive Jirachi with Fire Punch and also not get burned by Fire Punch to come out on top if Jirachi doesn't have Hidden Power Ground".
It is extremely difficult for Magnezone to reliably trap Jirachi, and even though it can cripple it or chip it consistently at the very least, most Jirachi sets will probably come out on top, other than the ones that lack Calm Mind, Fire Punch, and Hidden Power Ground/HP Fire.

If anything, the fact that DragMag is a thing is one of the bigger boons to Skarmory, as nothing else can use Shed Shell as viably as it can.
If I'm correctly interpreting your logic here, you're trying to say that because a few of quite a lot of Steel-types lose to Magnezone and DragMag builds, and that Skarmory can uniquely use Shed Shell to an okay degree, that it should be more viable. The main argument for Skarmory's viability is its ability to use Spikes ridiculously well and stuff out a large variety of Physical attackers; it needs Leftovers to maximize those strengths. Shed Shell Skarmory is so bad that the fact that people actually use it suggests how incredibly susceptible Skarmory is to Magnezone compared to other Steel-types.
 
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Must've explained myself real badly.

Presence of Magnezone doesn't make any of the Steel-types get better, but it affects some more than others. I'm more just saying that if you have to single out one Steel type that should drop, Skarmory is not the one to single out for me. Shed Shell hovers around decent usage, and that item alone turns Skarmory into an absolute nightmare for a lot of Magnezone + partner teams, albeit at the expense of consistency vs other teams.

I'd have no issue if we were saying "Magnezone makes life difficult for several steels including Skarmory, can we look into which ones should drop?" But I was replying to a post that said that "Skarmory should drop from A+ to A- based on Magnezone" which is a completely different argument, because of all the steels you can at least tailor Skarmory to beat Magnezone without completely changing its role.

I'm not saying Skarm is better because of Magnezone, just saying that the idea that it should drop literally 16 ranks because of Magnezone is silly, especially cos its the best Shed Shell steel out of all of them.

(Yeah ignore mention of Heatran in previous post, forgot I was meant to be naming the stuff that Magnezone kills and went off topic by just naming Outrage/Meteor switch-ins. Heatran obv doesn't come into this conversaiton)
 

panamaxis

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Forretress isn't garbage. It has its issues for sure, but it's definitely serviceable. This is what I was playing around with:

Forretress @ Leftovers
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 176 Atk / 80 SpD
Impish Nature
- Payback
- Spikes
- Earthquake
- Rapid Spin

I can't remember what the attack does, but i think it might have been the OHKO on heatran. It does need support, but with the extra attack you're pressuring starmie / rotom a lot more as well as denying strong threats like lucario, infernape, empoleon etc with free set up. It feels very nice EQing incoming heatrans and magnezones too. You're still going to get set up on by stuff like dragonite and gyarados, but eh, you can't do everything. That said, I'm not advocating for it to be any higher than it is.

Umbreon deserves to be ranked. It's not completely terrible now that latias has dropped. It can be a huge liability in giving up momentum, but the role compression of wish + heal bell + latias/starmie/gengar check in one can be very good on certain builds. Pair it with something like gyara to mitigate its weakness. I'd put it in C-
 
After the introduction of Latias, several pokemon have dropped to BL:


Dusknoir moves from OU to BL
Electivire moves from OU to BL
Forretress moves from OU to BL
Mamoswine moves from OU to BL
Ninjask moves from OU to BL
Shaymin moves from OU to BL
Smeargle moves from OU to BL
Snorlax moves from OU to BL
Togekiss moves from OU to BL
Umbreon moves from OU to BL
Vaporeon moves from OU to BL
Weavile moves from OU to BL

There are no Pokemon currently in BL that got more than 3.4% usage in OU.​


There is a high probability, that more than one Pokemon that dropped, did so becuase of the introduction of Latias.The reasoning behind this, is that latias's introduction reduced the number of Pokemon on an opponents team, that the BL Pokemon were meant to beat.

The chain of logic is thus:
  1. Premise: A BL Pokemon beats pocket monsters weak to ghoast, dark, ice, or dragon, excluding Latias
  2. Premise: People are hesitant to run too many Pokemon on their team which are weak to to the same type
  3. Premise: Latias is weak to that same type
  4. Therefore, people will run less Pokemon the BL pocket monster can beat
  5. Therefore, the BL Pokemon sees less usage
In a specific case, we can replace the BL Pokemon in our abstraction above with Weavile. The result is:
  1. Premise: Weavile beats Pokemon weak to dark, except Latias or Rotom-A
  2. Premise: People are hesitant to run too many Pokemon on their team which are weak to dark
  3. Premise: Latias is weak to dark
  4. Therefore, people will run less Pokemon Weaviule can beat
  5. Therefore, Weavile sees less usage
Weavile is also meant to check all dragons weak to ice, which it no longer does.

Because several Pokemon on the new BL list, no longer check other Pokemon they have a type advantage against, or no longer perform their traditional roles, there is a high probability that several Pokemon left OU because of the introduction of Latias.
 
After the introduction of Latias, several pokemon have dropped to BL:


Dusknoir moves from OU to BL
Electivire moves from OU to BL
Forretress moves from OU to BL
Mamoswine moves from OU to BL
Ninjask moves from OU to BL
Shaymin moves from OU to BL
Smeargle moves from OU to BL
Snorlax moves from OU to BL
Togekiss moves from OU to BL
Umbreon moves from OU to BL
Vaporeon moves from OU to BL
Weavile moves from OU to BL

There are no Pokemon currently in BL that got more than 3.4% usage in OU.​


There is a high probability, that more than one Pokemon that dropped, did so becuase of the introduction of Latias.The reasoning behind this, is that latias's introduction reduced the number of Pokemon on an opponents team, that the BL Pokemon were meant to beat.

The chain of logic is thus:
  1. Premise: A BL Pokemon beats pocket monsters weak to ghoast, dark, ice, or dragon, excluding Latias
  2. Premise: People are hesitant to run too many Pokemon on their team which are weak to to the same type
  3. Premise: Latias is weak to that same type
  4. Therefore, people will run less Pokemon the BL pocket monster can beat
  5. Therefore, the BL Pokemon sees less usage
In a specific case, we can replace the BL Pokemon in our abstraction above with Weavile. The result is:
  1. Premise: Weavile beats Pokemon weak to dark, except Latias or Rotom-A
  2. Premise: People are hesitant to run too many Pokemon on their team which are weak to dark
  3. Premise: Latias is weak to dark
  4. Therefore, people will run less Pokemon Weaviule can beat
  5. Therefore, Weavile sees less usage
Weavile is also meant to check all dragons weak to ice, which it no longer does.

Because several Pokemon on the new BL list, no longer check other Pokemon they have a type advantage against, or no longer perform their traditional roles, there is a high probability that several Pokemon left OU because of the introduction of Latias.
Enjoyed reading the post bro but thing is, Weavile wouldn't be used as much regardless of Latias. There is too much fighting and steel priority floating around and too many checks to Weavile that make it hard to use unlike say Tyranitar who fulfils more roles and is much more reliable.

Speaking of Pokémon that are weak to dark types namely Starmie, Gengar & Rotom-A, they are still seen very often and I don't think that Weavile has ever been a factor in decreasing their usage. Weavile just allows so many things to set up with little setbacks and it is more of a liability than anything. Don't get me wrong, I loved using it (back in 2010 on crazy balls to the wall hyper offense) but a lot harder to use in the current metagame.
 
Enjoyed reading the post bro but thing is, Weavile wouldn't be used as much regardless of Latias. There is too much fighting and steel priority floating around and too many checks to Weavile that make it hard to use unlike say Tyranitar who fulfils more roles and is much more reliable.

Speaking of Pokémon that are weak to dark types namely Starmie, Gengar & Rotom-A, they are still seen very often and I don't think that Weavile has ever been a factor in decreasing their usage. Weavile just allows so many things to set up with little setbacks and it is more of a liability than anything. Don't get me wrong, I loved using it (back in 2010 on crazy balls to the wall hyper offense) but a lot harder to use in the current metagame.
I agree everything you say here, but I think you have missed my point.

I did not intend to imply, that Weavile saw a lot of use in the meta before Latias. It is a true statement that the removal of Weavile alone from OU (by usage rate) has not made a significant impact on the meta-game.

What I meant was that in aggregate, the removal of several Pokemon with low usage rates may lower the diversity of the metagame, dispite the increase in diversity that occurred, becuase of the introduction of Latias. It is a game of numbers; if the number of team combinations, multiplied by the probability of seeing those teams without latias, is greater than the number of team combinations, multiplied by the probability of seing those teams with Latias in OU, then the meta was more diverse when Latias was in Ubers. If the reverse is true, then we can safely say that Latias is a welcome addition to OU, and use numbers to back that statement up.

For this reason, it is incredibly beneficial to figure out which (if any) of the recent drops to borderline resulted from the introduction of Latias. If enough Pokemon left because of it, then its possible that the meta-game became less diverse despite the intention to create more variation.
 
Idk about yanmega below stuff like feraligator. A specs set especially as lead is absurdly strong and putting it as lead mitigates its rock weakness initially. With tinted lens everything is a neutral hit at least basically. Air slash does ridiculous amounts to even stuff like heatran or just straight up hp ground it. Even the speed boost life orb set isn’t completely awful. I think it has a lot more impact than something like mesprit/feraligator ever would. Some really good people have used vs me or in tours and honestly it’s difficult to switch into for a lot of teams. Yes stealth rock is a big issue with it and sand/priority and not the BEST speed but it’s still pretty fast and the things it wants to hit hard off the bat tend to be slower such as specs Tran lead, machamp, etc which are very scary leads to face themselves sometimes. I think yanmega has potential to make a big impact vs a lot of teams or at least get some huge chip on something every game.

Edit: obviously something like champ isn’t gonna stay in except for sash but something else is gonna have to try and take a neutral specs air slash and of course gonna have to worry about a possible prediction off the bat as well. I feel like it’s similar to something like specs zapdos in a way where that initial turn can be big and get big momentum. You could argue it has more upside than it in ways with nothing being immune to its “thunderbolt” in bug buzz/air slash
 
wHaT aBoUt ElEcTiViRe???

On a serious note, can someone explain why Clef is so high? What is it running, and why is it so good? I'm a DPP noob, but I can't exactly figure out what it does so well, magic guard is obviously amazing, but that's not enough to make it good, is it?
 

Oldamar999

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wHaT aBoUt ElEcTiViRe???

On a serious note, can someone explain why Clef is so high? What is it running, and why is it so good? I'm a DPP noob, but I can't exactly figure out what it does so well, magic guard is obviously amazing, but that's not enough to make it good, is it?
From what I know, Magic Guard + it's decent bulk, reliable recovery, and good support movepool with stuff like Stealth Rock, Knock off, and Thunder wave make it a great mon on a lot of teams. https://www.smogon.com/dex/dp/pokemon/clefable/ou/ this analysis is a good thing to check, you can also use the dex to look for other mons and their sets but keep in mind that a lot of analyses from DPP and back are outdated, though they are being worked on.
 
On a serious note, can someone explain why Clef is so high? What is it running, and why is it so good? I'm a DPP noob, but I can't exactly figure out what it does so well, magic guard is obviously amazing, but that's not enough to make it good, is it?
Clefable @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 44 Def / 212 SpD
Careful Nature
- Seismic Toss
- Knock Off
- Soft-Boiled
- Thunder Wave / Stealth Rock / Protect

This is Clef's bread and butter in the metagame, specially defensive. It's a hard check to special attackers like Zapdos, Starmie, Rotom, Latias, Empoleon and non-Taunt Heatran and to weak or passive mons like SR Pert, Nidoqueen, Milotic, etc and will wall them all indefinitely. Clef also has a strong punish game - mons that switch-in must be weary of both Knock Off and Thunder Wave. It's also a SR setter that beats both spinners long-term and can switch-in and force up rocks. Protect allows Clef to scout for Pursuit, Trick, or choiced mons, to regain chipped health, and to escape Dugtrio traps. In terms of EVs, Clef is flexible; you can run more def if you want to be better against Pursuit or Dug, or more SpD for insurance against special threats.

Clef can also run a BoltBeam physically-defensive Calm Mind set, which performs amazingly against stall but cannot check threats like Specs Latias, offensive Heatran, etc. You see it on many modern stalls paired with Blissey.

To answer your last question, yeah, Magic Guard is that good in DPP. Unlike BW, where there is a major power creep in terms of offensive threats (Lando/Garchomp/Exca, Terrak/Keldeo, Latios, etc.) that can actually threaten Clef (OHKO to 2HKO), DPP is fairly anemic and threats like ScarfGon, Bronzong, and Kingdra may not be enough to muscle through it. Additionally Magic Guard is slightly buffed in DPP as it prevents full para in addition to forms of passive damage. This factor makes it impossible to pressure Clef with any status, hazards, or weather; Clef is a reliable hard stop to many mons as it can never be worn down. To sum up, it's a consistent, hard-to-punish defensive threat and glue that can fill many necessary roles (SR, special tank, CM sweeper, stallbreaker) on balance and defensive teams.
 
I feel like a lead VR should be added, because some mons are ranked highs mostly because of how well they lead moreso than their overall viability in a team. Like Azelf will mostly set-up SR and die, 4 attacks is very rare especially with Tyranitar being event more relevant after Latias being unbanned, that would make mons like Crobat and Machamp drop a rank or two

Dugtrio at B+ might be a bit low, I feel like I have more reasons to add a dug/zone to my team than to add a non-lead machamp somewhere, double trap + cresselia / agility zapdos / mamoswine teams are solid and him and zone are kind of the key factor of it

A for Empoleon might be a bit high to me. With Latias being out, we have another scarfer that can revenge kill him even at +2 and tbolt renders Shuca a lot less effective than it is against Scarfgon. More situationnal but defensive calm mind latias can pretty easily set-up a calm mind on his sub and rack up spdef to avoid putting it in Petaya range until it can deal with him or simply roaring his petaya/agility out by surviving a +1 IB after SR. Petaya's 4MSS sucks when you are walled by either Latias or Suicune / Waters too. If we're doing Empoleon lead as a separate ranking, we have even more of a reason than to drop him to A-

Wouldn't be mad at Cune being A, defensive roar/cro cune is still so good even after Latias was unbanned, even though offensive cune lost a bit of hype. One of the few mons that can stomach a DM from rain kingdra/stall it out, this shit can dish out so much damage and just rest/cm it out it's not even funny (Explosion from tran, TR bronzong, EQ's from offensive pert..)

Wouldn't be mad to see Alakazam being around C rank, it's a gimmicky mon but his speed tier makes him insanely scary, it's like an all-out azelf that doesn't need hp fight to damage ttar and actually outspeed's scarfttar, which is huge. There are been less scizor than before so it's a big plus for him, doesn't make him amazing but he's better than camerupt tbh

Walrein could be C-, it's so obnoxious in hail teams and it's like Cradily's Hail counterpart so it wouldn't be shocking if they shared the same rank. Toxicroak could be C- too, it's very niche but the water immunity can allow some room for set-up and +2 sucker punch/ sub punch can actually be quite threatening

I feel like Jolteon is more reliable than Raikou at the moment, that shit is frightening for most offensive teams, sub/ baton pass avoids being trapped, wish can be pretty cool and Raikou can hardly set-up a cm in peace in this meta. Raikou is a decent lead but being rash sucks, if we're doing lead ranking I feel like Raikou and Jolteon's VR could swap ranks

Not mad at Gross being A+, it's not weak to SR, it can blow up your skarm, trick iron ball something, pursuit your psychic/ghost, destroy your rotom with banded zen headbutt, hold any type of berry and be good with it, tank things like stabbed earthquakes like it ain't shit, run agility, scarf, hp fire/ grass knot / psychic... The type of mons that will always keep you on your toes makes them the biggest threats in a meta imo deserves to be A+, and Gross is exactly like that. Even with a lead ranking Gross is an amazing mon, but even moreso if we're counting that he's one of the best and most reliable/dangerous lead in DPP

Roserade and Shaymin are better grass types than Celebi imo. Lead Celebi is nice, Leaf storm is scary but you're opening pandora's box set-up wise everytime you use it. Rose has double hasards, isn't weak to t-spikes, can sleep and has a much better typing than celebi, while Shaymin doesn't put himself at -2 to deal a huge amount of damage through seed flare. Celebi's baton pass is good but situational imo, Celebi's is a better Breloom check but can't come in on Rotom-A because of his typing and is weak to pursuit

Also Lanturn is S rank but y'all ain't ready for that conversation yet
 
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Excal

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I feel like a lead VR should be added, because some mons are ranked highs mostly because of how well they lead moreso than their overall viability in a team. Like Azelf will mostly set-up SR and die, 4 attacks is very rare especially with Tyranitar being event more relevant after Latias being unbanned, that would make mons like Crobat and Machamp drop a rank or two
A lead VR wouldn't hurt, but I don't think it'd be necessary to use it as a factor to separate Pokemon from their viability ranking overall.

Dugtrio at B+ might be a bit low, I feel like I have more reasons to add a dug/zone to my team than to add a non-lead machamp somewhere, double trap + cresselia / agility zapdos / mamoswine teams are solid and him and zone are kind of the key factor of it
Think that comparison with Machamp isn't really that relevant. Dugtrio comes with very crucial cons to a team (ie. creating a weakness to Dragon Dance sweepers, potential ones to Flygon, Gliscor, etc). Agility Zapdos + Dugtrio for example would, imo, be a very difficult team to make sound. Double Trap + Cress is cool but also has a lot of weaknesses that are difficult to overcome. Mamoswine teams are difficult to pull off because you usually need both Magnezone and Tyranitar at this point, which creates some unpleasant fighting weaknesses, and something else on the team will open you up to Heatran pretty badly as well. Dugtrio is very good but I think it's totally fine where it is.

A for Empoleon might be a bit high to me. With Latias being out, we have another scarfer that can revenge kill him even at +2 and tbolt renders Shuca a lot less effective than it is against Scarfgon. More situationnal but defensive calm mind latias can pretty easily set-up a calm mind on his sub and rack up spdef to avoid putting it in Petaya range until it can deal with him or simply roaring his petaya/agility out by surviving a +1 IB after SR. Petaya's 4MSS sucks when you are walled by either Latias or Suicune / Waters too. If we're doing Empoleon lead as a separate ranking, we have even more of a reason than to drop him to A-
Latias's existence only makes Empoleon more desirable, because it's another Pokemon that abuses Water- and Dragon-type coverage, which only Empoleon resists. Specially defensive Empoleon sets have made a bit of a resurgence, which wall Latias, can cripple it with Toxic or force chip damage on it by phazing it with Roar. Petaya Empoleon is not an amazing set even without Latias, and while it's another potential stop to it, Agility Empoleon is still just as good as it was. Shuca/Wacan Berry has always been about Flygon or Rotom and Latias has not changed that dynamic. Empoleon should stay in A imo.

Wouldn't be mad at Cune being A, defensive roar/cro cune is still so good even after Latias was unbanned, even though offensive cune lost a bit of hype. One of the few mons that can stomach a DM from rain kingdra/stall it out, this shit can dish out so much damage and just rest/cm it out it's not even funny (Explosion from tran, TR bronzong, EQ's from offensive pert..)
CroCune is great but it requires a lot of support, whether it be via Magnezone, spin support (which is hard to fit honestly), or even weather clearing. It's amazing for many reasons but it's not that easy to just throw it on a team. CroCune never wants to take Bronzong's Explosion even if it's able to live it (think it's possible for it to die after rocks, and rocks + sandstorm should be a midroll iirc). I think A- is good for Suicune overall, it's awesome but not top tier.

Wouldn't be mad to see Alakazam being around C rank, it's a gimmicky mon but his speed tier makes him insanely scary, it's like an all-out azelf that doesn't need hp fight to damage ttar and actually outspeed's scarfttar, which is huge. There are been less scizor than before so it's a big plus for him, doesn't make him amazing but he's better than camerupt tbh
I don't think Alakazam is viable. I'm aware of its unique traits, but the issue is that it provides little to no defensive utility whatsoever and doesn't pack enough of a punch to justify it. You can almost never pivot it in, priority makes it very difficult for Alakazam to do too much versus offensive teams, etc. Scizor being not as popular helps it a bit but Jirachi everywhere certainly doesn't. All the Steel / Psychic-type mons give it quite a bit of trouble. It does have some counterplay I guess via moves like Thunder Wave but it's still very difficult to justify it on a team at all over any other Psychic-type. Camerupt on the other hand has a bit of defensive utility through its very unique typing, meaning it can pivot into stuff like Scarf Rotom's tbolt and even functions as a decent Zapdos switch-in. Its dual Fire and Ground stabs are very threatening offensively to Jira, Tar, Tran, and a decent number of top tier options. It also has the ability to converge Explosion onto stuff like Latias and Flygon quite consistently, which means it can open the gates for sweeps from Pokemon like Empoleon and Superachi, or it can create opportunities for Tyranitar to double in and trap Latias. My favorite set is an Endure + Custap Berry one with Fire Blast, EQ, and Explosion. Camerupt's obviously very bad, but I think it's better than Alakazam. At most I could see Alakazam being decent versus teams with no Steel / Psychic-types, but those are pretty rare.

Walrein could be C-, it's so obnoxious in hail teams and it's like Cradily's Hail counterpart so it wouldn't be shocking if they shared the same rank. Toxicroak could be C- too, it's very niche but the water immunity can allow some room for set-up and +2 sucker punch/ sub punch can actually be quite threatening
Agree with Walrein, no opinion on Toxicroak.

I feel like Jolteon is more reliable than Raikou at the moment, that shit is frightening for most offensive teams, sub/ baton pass avoids being trapped, wish can be pretty cool and Raikou can hardly set-up a cm in peace in this meta. Raikou is a decent lead but being rash sucks, if we're doing lead ranking I feel like Raikou and Jolteon's VR could swap ranks
I don't agree with this. Raikou has defensive value that Jolteon doesn't have even with a Wish set (ie. vs Gengar), can find opportunities to set up Calm Mind, and can overcome Tyranitar with Aura Sphere. Jolteon's main niche vs Raikou is outspeeding Adamant DDGyarados and Dnite. Both of them are quite weak to sand and chip damage. SubPass Jolteon is really niche, imo it really wants specs to compensate for its weaker power offensively. Raikou lead is dope though.

Roserade and Shaymin are better grass types than Celebi imo. Lead Celebi is nice, Leaf storm is scary but you're opening pandora's box set-up wise everytime you use it. Rose has double hasards, isn't weak to t-spikes, can sleep and has a much better typing than celebi, while Shaymin doesn't put himself at -2 to deal a huge amount of damage through seed flare. Celebi's baton pass is good but situational imo, Celebi's is a better Breloom check but can't come in on Rotom-A because of his typing and is weak to pursuit
Celebi is better than Shaymin imo. Lead Celebi can work but I've never been a fan of it. You're forced out vs Azelf unless you use Tanga Berry, which is pretty bad, vulnerable to Metagross, etc. Celebi's best set atm is a fast utility SR Leaf Storm HP Fire Recover set. Swampert is the elephant in the room, which Roserade is significantly worse at checking than Celebi. What makes Celebi such a good user of Stealth Rock is that it has coverage versus the two best spinners in the tier, meaning it can consistently force them up. Pursuit weakness isn't the highest concern with Celebi imo because usually Celebi maims tar with Leaf Storm and Tyranitar wants to use Crunch on it, provided that Celebi hasn't received a drop prior. With its crucial Fighting resist enabling it to check foes like Breloom and Lucario, access to Recover and Stealth Rock, and its incredible movepool with a ton of other great options, like Heal Block, U-turn, Perish Song, etc, I think Celebi has a lot more to offer than Shaymin, granted I think they're just as close in viability as represented in the current rankings.

Overall I think the concept of what works best as a lead vs midgame is not unfairly skewing the viability rankings. At the end of the day it's all about how good a Pokemon is in general. What a Pokemon can offer to a team, and how does it enable a team to function? That's all I care about, personally.
 
Most of my points had in mind that we would have a Lead VR on the side, Dugtrio's argument doesn't make sense if Machamp isn't ranked as a lead, but if he was, I would feel like that Dug brings a lot more to the table than Machamp does, and is a lot harder to replace in a team than Machamp is because machamp just brings straight damage and barely checks anything while Dugtrio can trap Tran / Ttar / Zone which a team can absolutely be built around.

My point of the lead ranking is that leading is so specific that it can kinda skew the ranking of some mons, like Machamp is so much better as an anti-lead, forcing pretty much anyone to have an answer to it and still probably losing a mon in the process because of confusion in some games while Machamp outside of a lead can be quite niche as it's tough to bring out. Some mons would get more shine in a lead ranking while not being as viable outside of the lead position, and excluding the abilities of some mons to lead could make things clearer as far as which pokémon should be considered as a huge trait and which should be dealt if we're strictly talking lead match-up

The VR also serves has a way for unexperienced player to understand a meta better so having a lead VR on the side gives a wider perspective of the meta
 

Excal

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Most of my points had in mind that we would have a Lead VR on the side, Dugtrio's argument doesn't make sense if Machamp isn't ranked as a lead, but if he was, I would feel like that Dug brings a lot more to the table than Machamp does, and is a lot harder to replace in a team than Machamp is because machamp just brings straight damage and barely checks anything while Dugtrio can trap Tran / Ttar / Zone which a team can absolutely be built around.

My point of the lead ranking is that leading is so specific that it can kinda skew the ranking of some mons, like Machamp is so much better as an anti-lead, forcing pretty much anyone to have an answer to it and still probably losing a mon in the process because of confusion in some games while Machamp outside of a lead can be quite niche as it's tough to bring out. Some mons would get more shine in a lead ranking while not being as viable outside of the lead position, and excluding the abilities of some mons to lead could make things clearer as far as which pokémon should be considered as a huge trait and which should be dealt if we're strictly talking lead match-up

The VR also serves has a way for unexperienced player to understand a meta better so having a lead VR on the side gives a wider perspective of the meta
Yeah, like I said I think a lead VR is totally fine, provided that it doesn't change the actual VR. Also, Substitute Machamp, for example, is still quite threatening outside of lead. Azelf/Uxie lead + Machamp teams are very strong, which have been used in tournaments fairly frequently. Even RestTalk Machamp is probably decent but it's not common right now. Even if for whatever reason leads were separated from the VR, Machamp should still be ranked above Dugtrio. They both bring about some defensive flaws to a team, but Machamp doesn't have the cost of losing offensive momentum, nor does it open a team up to DD sweepers/Gliscor. Machamp has a few Pokemon it can switch into, namely Tyranitar and Clefable. Machamp's ability to constantly force switches and pivoting as well as deal significant chip damage all across the board opens up tons of opportunities for offense. Imo, Dugtrio overall brings about more concerning/crippling weaknesses, and it's much harder to take advantage of Machamp than it is Dugtrio, but I do acknowledge that they are difficult to compare because they have extremely different roles.
 

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