Dvorak

[VKCA]

Link for the ignorant.
Anybody use dvorak? I always wanted to but never did until just last week because I thought I would need a new keyboard. As it turns out I didn't.
If anybody does use it, how long did it take to re-learn how to type? So far I have just had this image open the whole time so I know where the keys are. Do you notice your typing speed is any faster than it was with qwerty? Should I buy a dvorak keyboard just so I can see where the keys are without having to use that image?

 

[Matthew]

While I've changed my keyboard layout a few times the best one I've liked is colemak. Dvorak felt very uncomfortable to me, colemak leaves some of the original QWERTY keys in place to that gives you a sense of comfort. It takes about a week to learn to type at a decent pace, and after that it takes a few more days to type fast, but I was typing faster than with QWERTY, no doubt. Also most keyboards have keys which can be popped out and inserted wherever you want them too, so don't worry about buying a new keyboard.

 

[Sprocket]

I've been using Dvorak for the last 10 years. There's no way in hell I will ever use QWERTY if I can get away with it.

Only real downside to using Dvorak is that many games have their keymaps designed around QWERTY, so you either have to adapt or switch to QWERTY for those games.

Back when I first learned Dvorak (Summer of 2000 I believe) it took a good month or so of using nothing but Dvorak before my speed returned. After several months on Dvorak I relearned how to use QWERTY since it's quite necessary. Nowadays I can touch type at 60WPM in both layouts.

It's important to remember: it's OK to look at the keyboard if you're still learning. If you were a skilled touch typist in QWERTY, you will become a skilled touch typist in Dvorak with time. Until you ARE a skilled Dvorak typist, it's unreasonable to not look if you need help.

@Genny: The whole point of Dvorak is to get as far away from QWERTY as possible. QWERTY wasn't designed for comfort, it was designed so that old style typewriters in the 1800s wouldn't jam. Dvorak is designed for comfort (although it's got a slight bias for righties if you're a southpaw).

If you're a skilled typist you can type in Dvorak with your keyboard keys still in QWERTY layout. Or better still, get a keyboard with blank letters like a Das Keyboard.

 

[Acklow]

ok. I am using the dvorak to type this and it certainly isn't easy...

I of course am still used to the QWERTY layout.

 

[bombiron]

my main question is why would anyone use dvorak if they already have learned a keyboard layout? im not noticeably fatigued when typing on a qwerty keyboard (however i am less fatigued when i type on a laptop keyboard) so why switch?

 

[VKCA]

my main question is why would anyone use dvorak if they already have learned a keyboard layout? im not noticeably fatigued when typing on a qwerty keyboard (however i am less fatigued when i type on a laptop keyboard) so why switch?

Apparently you can type faster on dvorak and it's also supposed to reduce the risk of carpal tunnel syndrome and arthritis and what not.
As far as I know no research has gone into it though.

also
I would switch the keys around genny, but I don't have my own computer and I'm fairly certain my parents wouldn't want to learn how to type in dvorak.

 

[Sprocket]

my main question is why would anyone use dvorak if they already have learned a keyboard layout? im not noticeably fatigued when typing on a qwerty keyboard (however i am less fatigued when i type on a laptop keyboard) so why switch?

Why switch?

1. Why torture yourself on a layout not designed for comfort? Dvorak places the 10 most commonly typed letters in the English language on the home row. QWERTY's claim to fame is that you can type Typewriter using only the top row.
2. Because switching is free (aside from the time it takes to relearn).
3. Many people can achieve even faster typing speeds after switching.
4. You can type FAR more clever sentences on the Dvorak home row (AOEUI + DHTNS) than you can the QWERTY home row (ASDFG + HJKL;). Such as: "The idea that nineteen studious Dadaists assisted Einstein is asinine" versus: "A sad lass falls as a dad asks"

Course in fairness I can also list several valid reasons not to switch.

 

[Sprocket]

ok. I am using the dvorak to type this and it certainly isn't easy...

I of course am still used to the QWERTY layout.

Curious, how long ago did you make the switch? I still remember my first few weeks of Dvorak training were very painful weeks.

 

[VKCA]

I would imagine he switched some time around Jul 15th, 2010, 1:42:45 PM

 

[cim]

If you can type at equal speeds on both, why are dvorak users so passionate about their keys? Personally I've never typed stuff and then went "oh, my fingers are uncomfortable" nor do my typing speeds reac a level close enough to optimized for Dvorak to matter (my mind rather than mechanical motion is still the limiting factor)

 

[Sprocket]

If you can type at equal speeds on both, why are dvorak users so passionate about their keys? Personally I've never typed stuff and then went "oh, my fingers are uncomfortable" nor do my typing speeds reac a level close enough to optimized for Dvorak to matter (my mind rather than mechanical motion is still the limiting factor)

Try typing at home on Dvorak, then going to work and doing high speed data entry in QWERTY (high speed being 60WPM as a minimum).

I did, and my hands were quite numb after an 8 hour shift, and several fingers developed joint problems. Granted my data entry workstation was definitely not as ergonomic as I would have liked...

For the record I can sustain 60WPM in QWERTY, and 100WPM in Dvorak with 5% error or less.

 

[Jats605]

If you can type at equal speeds on both, why are dvorak users so passionate about their keys? Personally I've never typed stuff and then went "oh, my fingers are uncomfortable" nor do my typing speeds reac a level close enough to optimized for Dvorak to matter (my mind rather than mechanical motion is still the limiting factor)

Areed. The only thing I would switch to is something where the caps lock isn't right next to "A".
When I first wrote this, I hit it three times.
>_>
^ also, I can type that really fast :p

 

[Acklow]

I would imagine he switched some time around Jul 15th, 2010, 1:42:45 PM

True that. I tried it out just to see what it was like. I'm sure that anyone can become proficient if they tried.

 

[cantab]

Well I don't even type "properly". My typing is reasonably fast but often not very accurate, but hey, computers let you fix your errors!
Also, it'd be all very well using Dvorak at home, but what about at work? We hot desk to a fair degree so I can't use Dvorak there. Sprocket said it took him a month of using Dvorak exclusively to become proficient - that's just not possible in my situation.

 

[Sprocket]

Also, it'd be all very well using Dvorak at home, but what about at work? We hot desk to a fair degree so I can't use Dvorak there. Sprocket said it took him a month of using Dvorak exclusively to become proficient - that's just not possible in my situation.

And that right there illustrates one of the difficulties of learning Dvorak, and a valid reason why you shouldn't switch.

Some other reasons, to be fair:

* If you're a terrible typist (or a hunt-and-pecker) on QWERTY, you're likely to be a terrible typist (or a hunt-and-pecker) on Dvorak. In that case the primary reason to switch to Dvorak is probably meaningless to you.
* To be proficient, you either need to have superhuman learning ability, or (like the rest of us) you need to work on Dvorak exclusively for a significant period, likely a month or more. Dvorak might be easier to learn than QWERTY, but that doesn't mean you can unlearn QWERTY overnight.
* Along those lines, switching between Dvorak and QWERTY while you're still training in Dvorak is highly detrimental overall. Don't do it.
* Mobile devices do not widely support Dvorak (virtually all smartphones with a keyboard are QWERTY in the U.S.), and support for Dvorak will likely never be widely supported.
* Some people never regain their speed in QWERTY, and/or never see any noticeable gain. In this case the only reason to use Dvorak would be comfort over speed.
* In my experience, few people that are proficient in Dvorak are also proficient in QWERTY. Those that are, they're the exception and not the rule. To become proficient in both takes incredible time and skill, and most people lack the former.
* Your workplace might not allow you to use Dvorak at all. In this case, you're hosed.
* Many computer programs have keymaps designed around QWERTY, and changing them is either very difficult or impossible altogether. You either have to adapt to using Dvorak keymaps (which are often pretty awkward) or suck it up and use QWERTY.

Additionally Dvorak does have some specific disadvantages over QWERTY:

* Programming (which relies heavily on symbol usage) is sometimes more difficult due to some symbols being awkwardly placed.
* Non-English languages (such as Spanish, German, and French) don't always adapt to Dvorak as well (although there are foreign language variants). This is a killer if your primary language is not English.
* Keyboard shortcuts for Undo, Cut, Copy, Paste, Save (Ctrl + Z, X, C, V, S) are very awkward in Dvorak.

Certainly alternate keyboard layouts (like colemak) have some merit over Dvorak for specific applications, and its impossible to disagree with every one of them.

Also I should point out that I learned Dvorak while still in high school. If I were 40-something, learning Dvorak would probably be much harder (people tend to learn new skills faster at a younger age)

 

[VKCA]

* Keyboard shortcuts for Undo, Cut, Copy, Paste, Save (Ctrl + Z, X, C, V, S) are very awkward in Dvorak.

there is an option on macs that is dvorak with keyboard shortcuts of qwerty (currently what I'm using)

Also I should point out that I learned Dvorak while still in high school. If I were 40-something, learning Dvorak would probably be much harder (people tend to learn new skills faster at a younger age)

why I'm trying to learn it this summer. I do hope to be proficient at both (I can live with 20 wpm on qwerty) just so when I'm using other peoples computers I'm not completely fucked.

 

[Sprocket]

there is an option on macs that is dvorak with keyboard shortcuts of qwerty (currently what I'm using)

What the hell is a mac?

Oh! You mean one of those!

The business world predominantly uses Windows, not Mac OS. Something to consider.

 

[Veedrock]

The business world predominantly uses QWERTY, not Dvorak. Something to consider.

Anyways, I've never heard of this other keyboard input (never really cared tbh). What surprised me the most when reading the article on it is that it was introduced so long ago, yet it isn't standard. While there are a couple of reasons why it isn't standard (namely the cost of transition), the fact that it isn't standard 70 years later tells me it isn't a clear cut superior to the QWERTY layout.

I can type an average of 60 wpm on a standard keyboard, I don't really feel inconvenienced by certain keys having similar input, but I really do have a one sided opinion on the matter. May give this layout a try sometime for comparisons sake however.

 

[Sprocket]

Anyways, I've never heard of this other keyboard input (never really cared tbh). What surprised me the most when reading the article on it is that it was introduced so long ago, yet it isn't standard. While there are a couple of reasons why it isn't standard (namely the cost of transition), the fact that it isn't standard 70 years later tells me it isn't a clear cut superior to the QWERTY layout.

Actually QWERTY vs Dvorak is a classic textbook example of economics. Dvorak is largely cited as being superior to QWERTY for speed and comfort, but because QWERTY was the standard first (compared to Dvorak, QWERTY wasn't first ever), the cost to convert everyone and everything from QWERTY to Dvorak is astronomically high, and no one wants to do it (it's actually a highly studied subject). It's highly unlikely Dvorak will ever replace QWERTY for that reason alone.

You could use a similar argument for SI (aka Metric) versus U.S. Imperial. SI is the world standard, but because us Americans are stubborn as all get out, we're very slow to abandon our system of measurements. Not to mention it would be pretty damn expensive (just think of all the road signs on the Interstates alone). Unlike Dvorak though, the US will probably adopt SI one day, but it won't change the fact that it's still going to be expensive.

Let's not forget the Betamax versus VHS war (picture quality versus movie size), or Blu-ray vs HD-DVD war (storage capacity versus cost). Although those wars were won and lost for different reasons than one existing before the other.

I will say this for Dvorak: The worlds fastest typists all use Dvorak. Here's a short biography on Barbara Blackburn, the world's fastest typist until she died in 2008. She failed typing class in high school with QWERTY, and yet she set the world record using Dvorak.

Also a good amount of famous people use Dvorak: Bram Cohen (inventor of BitTorrent), Matt Mullenweg (lead developer of WordPress) Terry Goodkind (author of The Sword of Truth) and Steve Wozniak (co-founder of Apple Computer).

Seriously, if you're a Mac user, you owe it to Woz to use Dvorak :P

 

[MrIndigo]

I think you can set most Windows computers to Dvorak too, it's just that the keys won't change unless you manually swap them all.

 

[VKCA]

I think you can set most Windows computers to Dvorak too, it's just that the keys won't change unless you manually swap them all.

Every major operating system has dvorak as an option; problem is at work you might not have administrative privileges on your account. I certainly can't change the computers at my school...

 

[Sir_Lu]

I seriously considered switching to Dvorak, but found out that my name is a lot easier to type on QWERTY.

So I switched back. But I will admit that I could see the advantages in typing almost every other word and would recommend it for the short time I used it.

 

[CaptKirby]

A lot of people have really stupid conceptions here.

First of all the biggest reason to switch is to avoid pain. If you spend way too much time using your keyboard, then why risk carpal tunnel? Qwerty is much more likely to give it to you.

Secondly, it is not really much of a pain to switch. I typed 130 words per minute on qwerty. The first day I switched to dvorak I was typing 15 words per minute at the start and 30 words per minute by an hour later. I was up to 50 words per minute and then switched to colemak. I was up to 70 words per minute on colemak within a week. Yes it is partly because I rock ass and went out of my way, but it is also not that hard if you are already a disciplined typer. By the end of a month I was up to 100 words per minute. After that I plateaud pretty hard, I was stuck at 100-105 words per minute for at least 4-5 months. Eventually I crept up more, and now I type 125-130 words per minute when I care to do so (about 1 year 8 months later).

Thirdly, the point of dvorak is not to get as far away from qwerty as possible. The point is to be as efficient as possible. The problem is, when you try too hard to be efficient, you also end up hurting your typing ability again. There are 9 keys kept in the same place, and of them qw and zx are very rarely used. m and h are in the same place, easy to reach places, since they are commonly used and already well located for that purpose. cvb are in the same place, and off the top of my head I would guess that b is neither is necessarily used too much when it comes down to it, so it does not really matter if they are moved or not.

qwfpgjluy;
arstdhneio
zxcvbkm,./
is the layout for colemak, and I think the middle row is a lot more helpful than dvorak, that is what it came down to for me - the way dvorak has all the vowels in a row was actually pretty impeding for me.

The biggest problem I had starting out with colemak was words with ion in them, since all of them are same hand same row, but not much else was problematic.

The point of this scheme and dvorak is simple - to get as much of the typing onto one row as possible without making you use the same finger twice in a row if you do move lines. It is impossible to get the latter requirement to zero, but colemak does a good job with that too.

In qwerty you spend about 80% of your time typing on the top or bottom row. In dvorak and colemak you spend about 70% of your time typing on the middle row, which requires less wrist/finger movement and is healthier for you. It really is a shame that no one has the balls to institutionalize this in schools, with modern operating systems there is really no reason for people to not start switching. (I can have colemak up and running on any computer within a minute if I really need to, but I can also still type qwerty at around fifty words per minute if I really need to anyway).

 

[Eraddd]

Also a good amount of famous people use Dvorak: Bram Cohen (inventor of BitTorrent), Matt Mullenweg (lead developer of WordPress) Terry Goodkind (author of The Sword of Truth) and Steve Wozniak (co-founder of Apple Computer).

Seriously, if you're a Mac user, you owe it to Woz to use Dvorak :P

That's a pretty retarded argument. Just because famous people use dvorak, I should thus switch, because it'll somehow make me into a better person, possibly into someone like Bram Cohen. Hell, I'm gonna develop the newest file sharing program, just because I type in dvorak!

Oh and CaptKirby makes some very compelling arguments. If I have time, I may have to take up on the offer to switch.