dx-s

[chaos]

<@chaos> whats up guys
<+RB-Golbat> im surprised no one is complaining on gamefaqs about the deoxys ban
<@chaos> im going to go ahead and complain about the dx-s ban
<@chaos> when i established the voting system
<+RB-Golbat> oh, and im supposed to get snow showers tommorow
<@chaos> i made it clear there is to be a testing period of around 2 months
<@chaos> what the fuck is this 2 weeks stuff?
<@chaos> we hardly had any voters
<+RB-Golbat> i think it was because there was plenty of time before hand with deoxys s
<+RB-Golbat> and to be fair, it is very possible to create a new account and met the requirements in a few hours
<@chaos> thats irrelevant because the test is to build understanding on what the metagame is like withOUT deoxys-s
<@chaos> so any experience beforehand with deoxys-s is suitable for comparing the two
<@chaos> but not enough time, in my opinion, to foster good understanding of what the metagame is like sans dx-s

 

[jrrrrrrr]

Well, there was also a long period of time before this test withOUT deoxys as well, before it was allowed.

Whether or not we feel it was enough time in the current metagame, thats a different story, but there was a significant amount of experience both with and without dx-s.

 

[Jumpman16]

we did it because we have had experience with dx-s in competitive play since january. this amount of experience in standard applies to none of the other suspects

to be clear, though, the reason we hardly had any voters is not because of the two-week period, btw, it is largely because we have likely set the bar too high with regard to the requirements of voting. players need to attain a rating of 1650 on both ladders with a deviation of less than 60 on both ladders.

i would argue that this is the only reason we didn't have "enough" voters, though your gripe seems to have more to do with the amount of time without dx-s. to this, i ask you to read this post and my posts in general in this thread:

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1524590&postcount=26

we never had a metagame without dx-s. that isn't the point of suspect test ladder. it is to test a suspect in isolation and then decide, knowing that it is the only suspect, whether or not it is uber, through a vote. we felt that we had more than enough experience with dx-s to make this call after "two weeks" because it's been in standard since january

 

[X-Act]

I both agree and disagree with this somewhat.

I agree with it for exactly the reasons you mention, namely that you can get a much better feel of what the metagame is about without that Pokemon in question if you play it for a longer period of time. I think one month is enough... two months is a bit excessive (for the record, the Garchomp suspect ladder took one month).

On the other hand, I don't agree with it because if we take too long for every suspect, a new Pokemon game would be released and we still wouldn't have tested all of our suspects. You also have to take into account that people eventually get bored testing the same thing over and over. I've already read a few posts somewhere from people complaining that they have to play on the Suspect ladder indefinitely just to get voting rights.

So I see both the good and the bad side of this.

EDIT: To Jumpman16, I also voiced my opinion that it's not easy to obtain 1650 rating and 60 deviation in two weeks. I had suggested to make the deviation larger for this case (70 would have been nice) to allow for the less time you have to play. But it seems like people didn't think that we had too few voters...

 

[Havak]

Admittedly we did have a long period of play with no Deoxys-S, as well as a long time with it. So I can understand and don't have too much beef with it being gone now. If people don't try and meet the requirements I have to say it's their fault as it really doesn't take that long.

However, I have to say, we've not really had a chance to play Platinum with and/or without Deoxys-S long enough. So I'd be all for a re-test, as probably another month with and another month without would be fair (due to lack of Platinum play-time and statistics). Although, we'll still get a lack of people meeting requirements and probably end up with the same result.

 

[jrrrrrrr]

Havak, Deoxys (along with the other suspects) IS being retested.

Do people STILL not understand the testing system we're using? Read the OoO thread before posting things like "I would be for a re-test", that just shows that you haven't been paying attention up to this point.

Although havak did bring up a good point. Even though the rating is not actually hard to obtain, the number of 1650 just seems daunting to a lot of people and then they just suffer from lack of motivation. Maybe lowering it to 1600 and 65 deviations could work? I dont think we should really sacrifice the quality of battler we want voting, but it was much more difficult to get the rating for dx-s than it was for Garchomp since the suspect ladder was always dead, even in the middle of the day.

We just need something to re-energize people about the suspect tests.

 

[Jumpman16]

I talked with Aeolus about that a few days ago, and I don't think he'll mind me posting this here:

[17:15] <Jumpman16> also, can we consider lowering our voting criteria standards just a tad?
[17:15] <Jumpman16> like StDev of 65 or whatever
[17:15] <Aeolus> I think that is a call we can make when voting gets nearer
[17:15] <Aeolus> like, we tell ppl 1650/60
[17:15] <Aeolus> and then if not enough make it, we can lower it
[17:15] <Aeolus> to include more

[17:15] <Jumpman16> did we end up doing that this time?
[17:15] <Aeolus> no
[17:15] <Jumpman16> i think it will take more of the burden off you
[17:16] <Jumpman16> how many "lemme vote" PMs did you get this time?
[17:16] <Aeolus> only 3
[17:16] <Jumpman16> ok thats not bad
[17:16] <Aeolus> and I granted all of them

[17:16] <Aeolus> I'd just rather people shoot for the goal
[17:16] <Aeolus> if they fall short, we can adjust
[17:16] <Aeolus> it gives us more control
[17:16] <Aeolus> over how many voters we have
[17:17] <Jumpman16> i just wonder if we all think the 30 was enough
[17:17] <Jumpman16> maybe it was
[17:17] <Jumpman16> but maybe it wasn't

[17:17] <Jumpman16> i would personally like more
[17:17] <Aeolus> I think if the vote was closer, it wouldn't have been
[17:17] <Jumpman16> exactly
[17:17] <Aeolus> but i should have put more thought into that before
[17:18] <Aeolus> we'll be more cautious with this next one

 

[RBG]

EDIT: To Jumpman16, I also voiced my opinion that it's not easy to obtain 1650 rating and 60 deviation in two weeks. I had suggested to make the deviation larger for this case (70 would have been nice) to allow for the less time you have to play. But it seems like people didn't think that we had too few voters...

Assuming that there are actually people playing the suspect ladder, it shouldn't be hard to earn such a rating. After a few hours of laddering with one my alts yesterday, I was able to make the voting criteria. (I presided to lose enough battles to fall below the criteria, but that is not the main point) I think the problem was that:

1) Getting a rating on two ladders seems hard
2) People already thought we did deoxys-s
3) People were not as passionate about this suspect
4) Some people didn't understand why Skymin and not Deoxys-S was banned from the suspect ladder (after it being explained A LOT)
5) Many knew that most voters were going to vote uber anyways (not so sure about this one)

 

[Havak]

Havak, Deoxys (along with the other suspects) IS being retested.

Do people STILL not understand the testing system we're using? Read the OoO thread before posting things like "I would be for a re-test", that just shows that you haven't been paying attention up to this point.

Although havak did bring up a good point. Even though the rating is not actually hard to obtain, the number of 1650 just seems daunting to a lot of people and then they just suffer from lack of motivation. Maybe lowering it to 1600 and 65 deviations could work? I dont think we should really sacrifice the quality of battler we want voting, but it was much more difficult to get the rating for dx-s than it was for Garchomp since the suspect ladder was always dead, even in the middle of the day.

We just need something to re-energize people about the suspect tests.

Well, I thought I understood lol. But seeing "Deoxys-S Sent To Ubers" on the front page makes me think the testing period is over and done with lol. (For Deoxys-S anyway).

 

[DougJustDoug]

Perhaps we could set a floor on the number of voters? For example, we could take all voters that have achieved the 1650/60 rating OR the top 50 ranked players on the Suspect Ladder -- whichever is greater. If it is an unpopular Suspect (like Deo) -- then it will be easier to qualify. In this way, no one is excluded, since 1650/60 guarantees your vote. But, in the event of a lackluster ladder, we still have a certain minimum number of voters.

Perhaps we could lower the rating target AND institute a floor?

 

[Aeolus]

Jumpman essentially already posted what I would have said to this thread.

When you get a chance, chaos... if you could explain why you want the testing period to be two months that would be helpful. When I ask people who actually play the game, all of them say that one month is nearly overkill. Several of the most active players think just two weeks is enough. From my own experience, I can say with confidence that one month is a sufficient amount of time... so I'm curious if you have a reason for wanting it to be two.

As for the number of voters this time around... I'd say that would have been an issue if the vote was even remotely close. It wasn't. Going forward, we'll make sure to have enough... whatever the consensus of "enough" is. I don't like the idea of a floor or quota or anything similar. There is no reason to bind ourselves by such restrictions when we have the option of adjusting the numbers however we want in every instance.