Empoleon (Offensive Stealth Rock) (QC 3/3) (GP 2/2)

Magcargo

Magcargo

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QC 2/3 PK Gaming, Somalia, kokoloko
GP 2/2 GatoDelFuego, Governess
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[SET]
name: Offensive Stealth Rock
move 1: Stealth Rock
move 2: Hydro Pump
move 3: Ice Beam
move 4: Grass Knot
item: Leftovers
ability: Torrent
nature: Modest
evs: 172 HP / 252 SpA / 84 Spe

  • This set combines Empoleon's wallbreaking power and defensive typing to function as a reliable Stealth Rock setter
  • Doesn't ruin momentum like defensive Empoleon does
  • Can beat common Rapid Spin and Magic Bounce users
  • Functions better on Offensive teams than Empoleon's other sets because of these factors
[SET COMMENTS]

<p>This set blends Empoleon's decent defensive typing and high Special Attack stat to make it a formidable Stealth Rock setter, as well as allow it to maintain a great amount of offensive presence. Unlike other Stealth Rock setters, Empoleon is able to keep Stealth Rock on the field due to its ability to defeat every common Rapid Spin and Magic Bounce user. Because of this, this set functions better on offensive teams that don't have room for a spinblocker. Hydro Pump functions as Empoleon's main STAB move, as due to its high Base Power and a Modest nature, it is guaranteed to 2HKO relatively bulky Pokemon such as Cofagrigus and Hitmontop. Ice Beam accomplishes two roles on this set: eliminating Grass- and Dragon-types that resist Empoleon's STAB and defeating Xatu. Grass Knot rounds this set off by hitting bulky Water-types, such as Blastoise and Swampert, for super effective damage.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>With the given EV spread, Empoleon is able to outspeed everything up to standard Hitmontop while retaining a large amount of offensive presence and bulk. An alternate EV spread of 48 HP / 252 SpA / 208 Spe or 108 HP / 252 SpA / 148 Spe can be used, with the former outspeeding minimum Speed base 85s such as Suicune and Gligar and the latter outspeeding minimum Speed Blastoise, but this would greatly detract from Empoleon's bulk, as Choice Scarf Victini now has a chance to OHKO Empoleon after Stealth Rock. Despite Leftovers being the preferred item on this set, a Chople Berry or a Shuca Berry can be useful in certain situations. For example, if Empoleon is up against a Ground- or Fighting-type, such as Nidoqueen or Life Orb Mienshao, the Shuca Berry or Chople Berry will allow Empoleon to take their respective Ground- and Fighting-type attacks and OHKO back with its STAB Hydro Pump. Surf is an option over Hydro Pump on this set due to its perfect accuracy, but it unfortunately lacks enough power to reliably 2HKO Hitmontop. Empoleon can also function as an anti-lead by using Aqua Jet over Grass Knot, a Focus Sash, and maximum Speed, as the combination of Hydro Pump and Aqua Jet is able to defeat leads such as Azelf, Crustle, and Omastar. Finally, Empoleon can use a Life Orb to boost its power, but it unfortunately counteracts its great natural bulk.</p>

<p>Defensively, this set struggles against powerful Fighting-, Electric-, and Ground-types, while offensively, it struggles against bulky Water- and Grass-types. Because of this, Zapdos makes an absolutely wonderful partner for this set, as it can switch into the powerful Fighting- and Ground-type moves that Empoleon fears while also defeating a large amount of Water- and Grass-types with Thunderbolt and Hidden Power Flying, respectively. In return, Empoleon covers Zapdos's Ice- and Rock-type weaknesses and can defeat Swampert and Rhyperior, two of Zapdos's greatest counters. Crobat is another great partner for this set, as it can keep Grass- and Fighting-types, such as Virizion and Shaymin, in check with Brave Bird while also bringing Empoleon in safely with U-turn; however Crobat does share an Electric weakness with Empoleon. Roserade resists Empoleon's Electric-type weakness and can use Electric- and Water-types to set up Spikes.</p>

[SET COMMENTS]
  • With this set, Empoleon can function as a reliable Stealth Rock setter for your team, while also maintaining a large amount of offensive presence
  • Can keep Stealth Rocks on the field due to its ability to beat nearly every common Rapid Spin and Magic Bounce user
  • Hydro Pump is Empoleon's main STAB move due to its high 120 Base Power and has the ability to 2HKO relatively bulky Pokemon such as Hitmontop and Cofagrigus
  • Ice Beam is Empoleon's best way to hit Grass- and Dragon-types such as Shaymin and Druddigon respectively
  • Grass Knot rounds this set off by hitting Bulky Water-types for super effective damage
[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
  • 88 Speed EVs allow Empoleon to outpace Minimum Speed Hitmontop and 2HKO with Hydro Pump before it 2HKOes with Close Combat
  • Surf can be used over Hydro Pump for its higher accuracy, but it unfortunately has a low chance to 2HKO Hitmontop
  • A Shuca Berry can be used to lure and OHKO both Nidoqueen and Flygon
  • Empoleon can use Aqua Jet over Grass Knot with a Focus Sash and maximum Speed in the lead position to set up Stealth Rock in the beginning of the match while also defeating leads such as Azelf and Crustle with the combination of Hydro Pump and Aqua Jet
  • Empoleon can use power boosting items such as a Life Orb, but the recovery that the Leftovers provides is more useful
  • Zapdos is an excellent partner for this set, as it has excellent defensive synergy with Empoleon and can defeat common threats to Empoleon, such as Heracross and Slowking
  • Crobat can eliminate several Grass- and Fighting-types that give Empoleon trouble, including Virizion, Shaymin, Roserade, and Heracross
  • Roserade is another decent partner for this set, as it can use the bulky Water-types that Empoleon lures to set up Spikes
 
Last edited:
Definitely approving this since I've been using it and it's very good, but I'm not sure why you have 160 HP / 8 SpD instead of just 168 HP? Fix that.

Shuca Berry is better than you're giving it credit for, btw. Expert Belt doesn't even deserve a mention, and Life Orb if very iffy tbh.

I'll do a more thorough check before I approve this officially, but yeah it's a great set and should definitely be on-site.
 
Alright, I've bumped the HP EVs to 168 (don't know what I was thinking there) and I've removed the Expert Belt from AC. I'll remove the Life Orb if other QC members also think that it should be removed.
 
AC should mention using Focus Sash and Aqua Jet over Grass Knot as a lead for offensive teams. This allows you to remove a lot of attacking leads from turn one like Mienshao, Flygon, and Heracross, who are all 1HKO'd by Hydro Pump or Ice Beam while Empoleon is taken down to it's sash. Aqua Jet keeps Taunt Azelf and Aerodactyl from setting up hazards, and only lets opposing leads like Crustle, Scollipede, and Accelgor get up one layer.

koko edit: max speed with sash probs right?
 
Chandelure can eliminate several Grass-types who could otherwise wall Empoleon, such as Abomasnow and Roserade, while also being immune to Fighting-type attacks
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I don't think you should suggest Chandelure as a partner to check to either of these Pokemon. It's far too frail / susceptible SR weak to be used as a consistent check to either of these Pokemon, and we shouldn't be encouraging players to use something as valuable as Chandelure as a grass-type check anyway. I'd maybe mention Crobat instead, since it can beat most of the grass types in the tier, and is one of the best Fighting-type checks around. (and is also better at checking Shaymin and Virizion who you neglected to mention, though it can't really beat Aboma)
Roserade is another decent partner for this set, as it can use the bulky Water-types that Empoleon lures to set up Spikes and can also form an amazing Fire / Water / Grass core with Empoleon and the aforementioned Chandelure
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FWG isn't amazing nor is it something players should be specifically shooting for. It just so happens that certain teams that are good happen to incorporate FWG cores. I think it's a really bad idea to encourage players to actively build these cores, since it ends up being a crutch.
 
I really haven't used this set and that's why I didn't comment before, but I just noticed: 88 Spe EVs is creeping, you only need 84 for Hitmontop unless you're running HP Fire—which you aren't.

I also don't like Lefties much and I'd prefer Shuca slashed, but I'm not in a position to give a real check about that. However, I think Chople could be AC (if it was viable with Agility Empoleon, I could see it working for this too; even tho in the first case it was to get a second boost against Scarf Hera and this is just to get one more hit).
 
What's the point of running 84 Speed EVs when the Hitmontop analysis runs 4 Speed EVs? You just tie with it. I think the spread should either be 48 Hp / 252 SpA / 208 Spe so you outrun min speed gligar/cune/max speed crustle, or max HP/Spa with 4 in Speed to outrun P2 and friends. If we do end up rolling with the current spread, there shouldn't be 4 random EVs in Special Defense. (move them to HP) But yeah, I'm not sure what happens when the wall you want to outspeed runs 4 random Speed EVs lol.
 
RT. said:
What's the point of running 84 Speed EVs when the Hitmontop analysis runs 4 Speed EVs? You just tie with it. I think the spread should either be 48 Hp / 252 SpA / 208 Spe so you outrun min speed gligar/cune/max speed crustle, or max HP/Spa with 4 in Speed to outrun P2 and friends. If we do end up rolling with the current spread, there shouldn't be 4 random EVs in Special Defense. (move them to HP) But yeah, I'm not sure what happens when the wall you want to outspeed runs 4 random Speed EVs lol.
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Running 4 more EVs into Speed to outspeed minimum Speed Hitmontop is considered Speed creeping, which is a big no-no on UU analyses. Also, I'm somewhat iffy on moving 4 EVs into HP, as doing so gives Empoleon an uneven HP number, meaning that it will die to residual damage faster. I'm not sure about implementing your current spreads, so I shall allow the other QC members to decide on that.
 
You have the soeed EVs to beat Hitmontop, but the bad because it's on Smogon set says for it to run 4, it's not considered speed creeping if you're outruning a set, and only the EVs in it. (Of course in general though normal people would never use a Smogon set, cause you know, it's Hitmontop)
 
Magcargo 2 said:
Running 4 more EVs into Speed to outspeed minimum Speed Hitmontop is considered Speed creeping, which is a big no-no on UU analyses. Also, I'm somewhat iffy on moving 4 EVs into HP, as doing so gives Empoleon an uneven HP number, meaning that it will die to residual damage faster. I'm not sure about implementing your current spreads, so I shall allow the other QC members to decide on that.
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Hitmontop's standard analysis has a spread of 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe, thus you can run 8 Speed EVs on Empoleon to outpace it. Had the analysis of Hitmontop had no Speed EVs, then this would be considered speed creeping.

There are also a number of things in the written up analysis that I would appreciate if you could change:


With the given EV spread, Empoleon is able to outspeed everything up to minimum speed Hitmontop, while retaining a large amount of offensive presence and bulk.
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This needs to be changed to 'standard hitmontop' as Hitmontop does indeed run 4 speed EVs.


A larger investment into speed can be used to outspeed walls such as Blastoise, but this would greatly detract from either Empoleon's bulk or power.
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I doubt that investing to outpace Blastoise is of any major use. like RT. mentioned, you can state that a spread of 48 Hp / 252 SpA / 208 Spe can be used to outpace Crustle, Gligar and Suicune although you lose your ability to take hits better as Mienshao now has a chance to OHKO you with HJK. Since you do about 48-55% to Bulky Suicune, outpacing it is of some significance before it can nab a cm boost or Rest up. Outpacing Gligar is also pretty neat as you avoid it setting up SR. Crustle regardless will get 2 layers up so yeah (unless you use Aqua Jet).


Roserade resist all all of Empoleon's weaknesses and can use Electric- and Water-types as Spikes fodder.
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As Roserade doesn't resist Ground-type attacks, all can be changed to most or something along those lines.

Thanks.
 
That's still speed creep lol. Anyway I changed the Hitmontop spread via SCMS because those 4 Speed EVs were random as fuck, so you can use the 172 HP / 252 SpA / 84 Spe spread now.
 
For the record, I'm okay with either 84 Speed for 0 Speed Hitmontop, or enough to outrun 0 Speed Blastoise. More than that seems like a waste.

I'd prefer enough for Blastoise, but I don't feel strongly enough about it to force the change. Definitely AC it, though. Once that's done,

QC Approved 3/3
 
Magcargo 2

REMOVE CHANGE COMMENTS

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>This set blends Empoleon's decent defensive typing and Special Attack to make it a formidable Stealth Rock setter, as well as allow it to maintain a great amount of offensive presence. Unlike other Stealth Rock setters, Empoleon is able to keep Stealth Rocks on the field due to its ability to defeat every common Rapid Spin and Magic Bounce users. Because of this, this set functions better on offensive teams that don't have room for a spinblocker. Hydro Pump functions as Empoleon's main STAB move, as due to its high Base Power and a boosting nature, it is guaranteed to 2HKO relatively bulky Pokemon such as Cofagrigus and Hitmontop. Ice Beam accomplishes two roles on this set: eliminating Grass- and Dragon-types who that resist Empoleon's STAB and defeating Xatu. Grass Knot rounds this set off by hitting bulky Water-types, such as Blastoise and Swampert, for super effective damage.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>With the given EV spread, Empoleon is able to outspeed everything up to standard Hitmontop, (RC) while retaining a large amount of offensive presence and bulk. An alternate EV spread of 48 HP / 252 SpA / 208 Spe or 108 HP / 252 SpA / 148 Spe can be used to outspeed minimum Speed base 85s, such as Suicune and Gligar and minimum Speed Blastoise, respectively, but this would greatly detract from Empoleon's bulk, as Choice Scarf Victini now has a chance to OHKO Empoleon after Stealth Rock. Despite Leftovers being the preferred item on this set, a Chople Berry or a Shuca Berry can be useful in certain situations. For example, if Empoleon is up a against a Ground- or Fighting-type, such as Nidoqueen or Life Orb Mienshao, the Shuca Berry or Chople Berry will allow Empoleon to take their respective Ground- and Fighting-types attacks and OHKO with its STAB Hydro Pump. Surf is an option over Hydro Pump on this set due to its perfect accuracy, but it unfortunately lacks enough power to reliably 2HKO Hitmontop. Empoleon can also function as an anti-lead by using Aqua Jet over Grass Knot, a Focus Sash, and maximum Speed, as the combination of Hydro Pump and Aqua Jet is able to defeat leads such as Azelf, Crustle, and Omastar. Finally, Empoleon can use a Life Orb to boost its power, but it unfortunately counteracts with its great natural bulk.</p>

<p>Defensively, This set struggles against powerful Fighting-, Electric-, (AC) and Ground-types, while offensively, it struggles against bulky Water- and Grass-types. Because of this, Zapdos makes an absolutely wonderful partner for this set, as it can switch into the powerful Fighting- and Ground-type moves that Empoleon fears while also defeating a large amount of Water- and Grass-types with Thunderbolt and Hidden Power Flying respectively. In return, Empoleon resists Zapdos's Ice- and Rock-type weaknesses and can defeat Swampert and Rhyperior; two of Zapdos's greatest counters. Crobat is another great partners for this set, as it can keep Grass- and Fighting-types, such as Virizion and Shaymin, in check with Brave Bird, (RC) while also bringing Empoleon safely with U-Turn. Crobat does share an Electric weakness with Empoleon, however. Roserade resists Empoleon's Fighting- and Electric-types weaknesses and can use Electric- and Water-types as to set up Spikes fodder.</p>
1/2
 
Last edited:
amcheck
Additions
Removals
Comments

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>This set blends Empoleon's decent defensive typing and Special Attack to make it a formidable Stealth Rock setter, as well as allow it to maintain a great amount of offensive presence. Unlike other Stealth Rock setters, Empoleon is able to keep Stealth Rocks on the field due to its ability to defeat every common Rapid Spin and Magic Bounce user. Because of this, this set functions better on offensive teams that don't have room for a spinblocker. Hydro Pump functions as Empoleon's main STAB move, as due to its high Base Power and a boosting nature, it is guaranteed to 2HKO relatively bulky Pokemon such as Cofagrigus and Hitmontop. Ice Beam accomplishes two roles on this set: eliminating Grass- and Dragon-types that resist Empoleon's STAB and defeating Xatu. Grass Knot rounds this set off by hitting bulky Water-types, such as Blastoise and Swampert, for super effective damage.</p>
[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>With the given EV spread, Empoleon is able to outspeed everything up to standard Hitmontop while retaining a large amount of offensive presence and bulk. An alternate EV spread of 48 HP / 252 SpA / 208 Spe or 108 HP / 252 SpA / 148 Spe can be used to outspeed minimum Speed base 85s, such as Suicune and Gligar and minimum Speed Blastoise, but this would greatly detract from Empoleon's bulk, as Choice Scarf Victini now has a chance to OHKO Empoleon after Stealth Rock(you mention 2 ev spreads, but you don't say which one outspeeds the minimum base 85s, and why the other is a good option). Despite Leftovers being the preferred item on this set, a Chople Berry or a Shuca Berry can be useful in certain situations. For example, if Empoleon is up a against a Ground- or Fighting-type, such as Nidoqueen or Life Orb Mienshao, the Shuca Berry or Chople Berry will allow Empoleon to take their respective Ground- and Fighting-types attacks and OHKO back with its STAB Hydro Pump. Surf is an option over Hydro Pump on this set due to its perfect accuracy, but it unfortunately lacks enough power to reliably 2HKO Hitmontop. Empoleon can also function as an anti-lead by using Aqua Jet over Grass Knot, a Focus Sash, and maximum Speed, as the combination of Hydro Pump and Aqua Jet is able to defeat leads such as Azelf, Crustle, and Omastar. Finally, Empoleon can use a Life Orb to boost its power, but it unfortunately counteracts with its great natural bulk (or "conflicts with its great natural bulk").</p>
<p>Defensively, This set struggles against powerful Fighting-, Electric-, and Ground-types, while offensively, it struggles against bulky Water- and Grass-types. Because of this, Zapdos makes an absolutely wonderful partner for this set, as it can switch into the powerful Fighting- and Ground-type moves that Empoleon fears while also defeating a large amount of Water- and Grass-types with Thunderbolt and Hidden Power Flying, respectively. In return, Empoleon resists Zapdos's Ice- and Rock-type weaknesses and can defeat Swampert and Rhyperior;, two of Zapdos's greatest counters. Crobat is another great partner for this set, as it can keep Grass- and Fighting-types, such as Virizion and Shaymin, in check with Brave Bird while also bringing Empoleon in safely with U-Tturn. Crobat does share an Electric weakness with Empoleon, however. Roserade resists Empoleon's Fighting- and Electric-type weaknesses and can use Electric- and Water-types to set up Spikes.</p>
 
Amcheck, great job Magcargo 2 !

ADD
REMOVE
COMMENTS

[SET]
name: Offensive Stealth Rock
move 1: Stealth Rock
move 2: Hydro Pump
move 3: Ice Beam
move 4: Grass Knot
item: Leftovers
ability: Torrent
nature: Modest
evs: 172 HP / 252 SpA / 84 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>This set blends Empoleon's decent defensive typing and high Special Attack stat to make it a formidable Stealth Rock setter, as well as allow it to maintain a great amount of offensive presence. Unlike other Stealth Rock setters, Empoleon is able to keep Stealth Rocks on the field due to its ability to defeat every common Rapid Spin and Magic Bounce user. Because of this, this set functions better on offensive teams that don't have room for a spinblocker. Hydro Pump functions as Empoleon's main STAB move, as due to its high Base Power and a boosting Modest nature, it is guaranteed to 2HKO relatively bulky Pokemon such as Cofagrigus and Hitmontop. Ice Beam accomplishes two roles on this set: eliminating Grass- and Dragon-types that resist Empoleon's STAB and defeating Xatu. Grass Knot rounds this set off by hitting bulky Water-types, such as Blastoise and Swampert, for super effective damage.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>With the given EV spread, Empoleon is able to outspeed everything up to standard Hitmontop while retaining a large amount of offensive presence and bulk. An alternate EV spread of 48 HP / 252 SpA / 208 Spe or 108 HP / 252 SpA / 148 Spe can be used, (AC) with the former outspeeding minimum Speed base 85s (RC) such as Suicune and Gligar and the ladder latter outspeeding minimum Speed Blastoise, but this would greatly detract from Empoleon's bulk, as Choice Scarf Victini now has a chance to OHKO Empoleon after Stealth Rock. Despite Leftovers being the preferred item on this set, a Chople Berry or a Shuca Berry can be useful in certain situations. For example, if Empoleon is up a against a Ground- or Fighting-type, such as Nidoqueen or Life Orb Mienshao, the Shuca Berry or Chople Berry will allow Empoleon to take their respective Ground- and Fighting-types attacks and OHKO back with its STAB Hydro Pump. Surf is an option over Hydro Pump on this set due to its perfect accuracy, but it unfortunately lacks enough power to reliably 2HKO Hitmontop. Empoleon can also function as an anti-lead by using Aqua Jet over Grass Knot, a Focus Sash, and maximum Speed, as the combination of Hydro Pump and Aqua Jet is able to defeat leads such as Azelf, Crustle, and Omastar. Finally, Empoleon can use a Life Orb to boost its power, but it unfortunately counteracts its great natural bulk.</p>

<p>Defensively, Tthis set struggles against powerful Fighting-, Electric-, and Ground-types, while offensively, it struggles against bulky Water- and Grass-types. Because of this, Zapdos makes an absolutely wonderful partner for this set, as it can switch into the powerful Fighting- and Ground-type moves that Empoleon fears while also defeating a large amount of Water- and Grass-types with Thunderbolt and Hidden Power Flying, respectively. In return, Empoleon resists covers Zapdos's Ice- and Rock-type weaknesses and can defeat Swampert and Rhyperior, two of Zapdos's greatest counters. Crobat is another great partner for this set, as it can keep Grass- and Fighting-types (RC) such as Virizion and Shaymin (RC) in check with Brave Bird while also bringing Empoleon in safely with U-turn; (change to semicolon) however, Crobat does share an Electric weakness with Empoleon, however. Roserade resists Empoleon's Fighting- and Electric-type weaknesses (Idk if you should mention how Rose resists Fighting, considering it's forced out by most Fighting-types in the meta) and can use Electric- and Water-types to set up Spikes.</p>
 
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