Empoleon [Revamp]

S0MALIA

Banned deucer.
[OVERVIEW]
- One of the best SR setters in the game.
- Good overall stats and unique typing, however suffers slightly in the coverage department.
- Can play a lategame sweeper role making it quite versatile.
- Considerably good defensive stats allow it to live a numerous amout of attacks.


[SET]
name: Lead
move 1: Stealth Rock
move 2: Hydro Pump / Surf
move 3: Ice Beam / Grass Knot
move 4: Aqua Jet / Grass Knot
item: Focus Sash / Chople Berry / Shuca Berry
nature: Rash / Modest
evs: 40 Atk / 252 SpA / 216 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
-Excellent user of Stealth Rock
-Hydro Pump nukes Azelf, Tyranitar, Aerodactyl, Zapdos (after torrent range) whilst Surf is for people with missphobia.
-Ice Beam for Dragon-types such as Lead Dragonite and Flygon, Roserade and Grass-types in general.
-Aqua Jet allows Empoleon to sometimes escape vs lead Aero/Azelf unscathed with a combination of Hydro Pump and Aqua Jet. Also allows Empoleon to hit revenge killers hard once it is brought down to its sash.
-Grass Knot is a decent alternative and allows Empoleon to nab Swampert however keep in mind that you can never OHKO Swampert and its usage as a lead is slightly dwindling. Starmie gets hit hard and as most are defensive these days, you can take an attack and finish them off thus putting pressure on the opposing team early on.

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
-Focus Sash is the most optimal item and is the most useful the majority of the time. Chople Berry and Shuca can be used depending on the type of Pokemon other team members prefer to be gone which Empoleon can lure. Chople > Sash in instances such as vs Lead fake out Infernape.
-The EV Spread allows Empoleon to outpace the notorious fast Sash Machamp which sacrifices bulk for speed. There isnt any use for maximum speed investment on Empoleon. The Attack EVs allow Empoleon to have a good chance of finishing off Colbur Azelf
-Shuca berry helps Empoleon take Metagross and Heatrans Ground-type attacks.
-Good teammates are Pokemon that appreciate what Empoleon lures in. Gyarados and Dragonite can set up on Fighting and Fire-types that come in to revenge kill Empoleon whilst Pursuit trappers can take out Rotom-A who is a commonly seen taking the last HP off Empoleon's life once it has dropped to Sash or has been weakened in general. Rash Nature if you use Focus Sash as you typically want the likes of Zapdos to put you in Torrent Range. Not a -def as taking Fighting and Ground-type physical attacks better is very important and generally you will be setting up rocks first vs those Pokemon / not attacking right away.
-If you are not using Aqua Jet, the 40 attack evs can go into Speed or HP and a Modest nature should be used.

[AGILITY SET x2]

The sets on site don't need complete overhaul however some minor changes such as addition of Timid nature to outpace Scarf Rotom-A and addition of Shuca Berry as in item on the Non-Sub Agility set. I will perhaps just re-write the paragraphs in the full analysis. Life Orb needs to be removed as the main item on Agility set.

[SPECIALLY DEFENSIVE SET]

Has its merits and have seen it being used successfully several times so no harm in keeping it. Don't know the optimal spread / set for this so if anyone has a solid spread / set please post it here.

[CHOICE SPECS]

The removal of the Choice Specs set from the analysis as well and mentioning it in other options.



[OTHER OPTIONS]
This section looks fine in the analysis.


[CHECKS AND COUNTERS]
Counters: Blissey, Clefable, Water-types such as CM Suicune, Vaporeon and Milotic handle any Non Grass Knot variant. Bulky Grass-types such as Abomasnow, Celebi and Shaymin can handle variants without Ice Beam however need investment to reliably take boosted Hydro Pumps powered by Petaya Berry and Torrent.
Checks: LO Thunderbolt Starmie / Flygon / Infernape / Jolly Breloom or Mach punch Loom / Magnezone / Rotom-W / Dragonite / Zapdos etc.
 
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I think on the last slot of the lead set, Grass knot should be slashed before Aqua Jet because without it Empoleon will be a setup bait for Suicune which is never a good new,if you will use Aqua Jet without Grass Knot be sure you have thing like Shaymin which can easily remove Suicune in the back.
Shuca berry is only used to beat Metagross/Dragonite(Choice Band).
I agree with you with the remove of the Choice Specs set,i think Kingdra for exemple is a better Choice Specs user since it have acces to Draco Meteor and since the Dragon/Water STAB is really good.

Good analyse.
 
[OVERVIEW]
- One of the best SR setters in the game.
- Good overall stats and unique typing, however suffers slightly in the coverage department.
- Can play a lategame sweeper role making it quite versatile.
- Considerably good defensive stats allow it to live a numerous amout of attacks.


[SET]
name: Lead
move 1: Stealth Rock
move 2: Hydro Pump / Surf
move 3: Ice Beam / Grass Knot
move 4: Aqua Jet / Grass Knot
item: Focus Sash / Chople Berry / Shuca Berry
nature: Rash / Modest
evs: 40 Atk / 252 SpA / 216 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
-Excellent user of Stealth Rock
-Hydro Pump nukes Azelf, Tyranitar, Aerodactyl, Zapdos (after torrent range) whilst Surf is for people with missphobia.
-Ice Beam for Dragon-types such as Lead Dragonite and Flygon, Roserade and Grass-types in general.
-Aqua Jet allows Empoleon to sometimes escape vs lead Aero/Azelf unscathed with a combination of Hydro Pump and Aqua Jet. Also allows Empoleon to hit revenge killers hard once it is brought down to its sash.
-Grass Knot is a decent alternative and allows Empoleon to nab Swampert however keep in mind that you can never OHKO Swampert and its usage as a lead is slightly dwindling. Starmie gets hit hard and as most are defensive these days, you can take an attack and finish them off thus putting pressure on the opposing team early on.

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
-Focus Sash is the most optimal item and is the most useful the majority of the time. Chople Berry and Shuca can be used depending on the type of Pokemon other team members prefer to be gone which Empoleon can lure. Chople > Sash in instances such as vs Lead fake out Infernape.
-The EV Spread allows Empoleon to outpace the notorious fast Sash Machamp which sacrifices bulk for speed. There isnt any use for maximum speed investment on Empoleon. The Attack EVs allow Empoleon to have a good chance of finishing off Colbur Azelf
-Shuca berry helps Empoleon take Metagross and Heatrans Ground-type attacks.
-Good teammates are Pokemon that appreciate what Empoleon lures in. Gyarados and Dragonite can set up on Fighting and Fire-types that come in to revenge kill Empoleon whilst Pursuit trappers can take out Rotom-A who is a commonly seen taking the last HP off Empoleon's life once it has dropped to Sash or has been weakened in general. Rash Nature if you use Focus Sash as you typically want the likes of Zapdos to put you in Torrent Range. Not a -def as taking Fighting and Ground-type physical attacks better is very important and generally you will be setting up rocks first vs those Pokemon / not attacking right away.
-If you are not using Aqua Jet, the 40 attack evs can go into Speed or HP and a Modest nature should be used.

[CHECKS AND COUNTERS]
Counters: Blissey, Clefable, Water-types such as CM Suicune, Vaporeon and Milotic handle any Non Grass Knot variant. Bulky Grass-types such as Abomasnow, Celebi and Shaymin can handle variants without Ice Beam however need investment to reliably take boosted Hydro Pumps powered by Petaya Berry and Torrent.
Checks: LO Thunderbolt Starmie / Flygon / Infernape / Jolly Breloom or Mach punch Loom / Magnezone / Rotom-W / Dragonite / Zapdos etc.

I don't think Rash needs a slash as 252 SpA Zapdos without a boosting item still does a minimum of 94.6%, while the SubRooster does 77% or so, well within Torrent Range. Overall bulk is still really nice to have on this thing.

I agree with EE15 that GK has to be the main slash as without it Water types wall you till the end of time, examples being Bold Starmie, Swampert, Suicune, Gyarados and ofc opposing Empoleon. One of the ultimate sins of Pokemon is having an SRer that can't stop opposing Hazard Removal, while being set-up bait for that many potential lategame sweepers sucks as well.

Shuca deserves a slash though, it helps beat stuff like Meta, Lead Flygon, Aero that decide to EQ, the resurging DDNite, along with like HP Ground Jirachi, LOTran and some other funky stuff. Chople is almost always the superior option though: Tyranitar, Machamp, Infernape, lead MixNite, etc. are more important to check.

Seeing as how even Timid LO Empoleon has a solid shot to 2HKO 252/252 Careful Clefable who fails to 2HKO itself with TBolt, it should not be listed as a counter. Everything else looks fine though. Nicely done.
 
I don't think Rash needs a slash as 252 SpA Zapdos without a boosting item still does a minimum of 94.6%, while the SubRooster does 77% or so, well within Torrent Range. Overall bulk is still really nice to have on this thing.

I agree with EE15 that GK has to be the main slash as without it Water types wall you till the end of time, examples being Bold Starmie, Swampert, Suicune, Gyarados and ofc opposing Empoleon. One of the ultimate sins of Pokemon is having an SRer that can't stop opposing Hazard Removal, while being set-up bait for that many potential lategame sweepers sucks as well.

Shuca deserves a slash though, it helps beat stuff like Meta, Lead Flygon, Aero that decide to EQ, the resurging DDNite, along with like HP Ground Jirachi, LOTran and some other funky stuff. Chople is almost always the superior option though: Tyranitar, Machamp, Infernape, lead MixNite, etc. are more important to check.

Seeing as how even Timid LO Empoleon has a solid shot to 2HKO 252/252 Careful Clefable who fails to 2HKO itself with TBolt, it should not be listed as a counter. Everything else looks fine though. Nicely done.
SOMALIA says:

1) Life Orb Empoleon is not used and should never be used.
2) Extra bulk does nothing significant against leads as long as I used this for the past 4 years.
3) Shuca Berry is slashed lol
4) No such thing as a Sub Roost Empoleon set. Where on earth are you getting your sets from...
5) Hydro Pump does more than G Knot to Empoleon...
6) Grass Knot 2hkoes Swampert while Hydro Pump does the same...

For me the slashes don't mean much and you are right about G knots importance for Starmie & Suicune, I will have to emphasis that in the analysis. Whoever takes over this can change it however they want. Thanks alot for the kind words.
 
...........
It's an example as the point is that Clefable is not an Empoleon check in any way.
Maybe for you but I did come up with a spread a while back that did some cool stuff against like Sash Tar, I forget what exactly what it was though.
I was talking about SubRoost Zapdos for God's sake as the primary reason he provided for using Rash is that it makes it easier for Zap to put you in Torrent Range when in truth Zapper does that regardless.
Your examples are noteworthy but the point remains the same, GK is a necessity to not get demolished by opposing Water types.

Do try and understand the point, not just pick out random examples that may not always apply.

Also RIP Somalia.
 
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