Evos for Everyone (Slate 21- Keep it Simple)

For the pre-playtesting part of balancing, I want to bring up a probably controversial suggestion: Removing some custom elements. Now, I like custom elements! That's why I allowed them in the first place. But we have a very large amount right now and many of them seem unnecessary. I think we should remove custom elements that the evo is unlikely to use. Here is a list of customs that I think could be removed simply because they feel tacked on:
- Cast Iron: This could be replaced with Filter.
- Defibrillator: Doubles only ability?
- Toxic Buildup: Would never be used
- Tin Fins: I don't think an Alomomola evo needs this, it would likely run Scald even off of 40 SpA
- Possibly Waterwheel or Cornered: 2 custom abilities on a pokemon in a split line with 4 total customs feels like too much, I think removing one of these would be a good idea.
- Spirit Steal: Am I remembering wrong, or did this get removed from Mausolectre for balance reasons? If it did, it's still listed in the spreadsheet, and if it didn't, it should be because strength sap is pretty dumb.

These are just possible things that could be removed to reduce clutter and make it easier to get into. This is not final in any way and feedback is necessary. If anyone, especially the creator, has a strong objection to these being removed, speak up. Also, if anyone has something else that they think feels unnecessary, let us know, especially if you're the creator.

There are also some things I think need to be nerfed right off the bat.
Ectitan and Mosskiff: Great defensive typings, great stats, and great abilities. Anchored is a borderline broken ability that makes hazard stacking extremely hard to deal with, especially on a bulky pokemon with good offensive presence. I think nerfing the bulk of each by a little bit and nerfing or removing Anchored would make both of these a lot easier to deal with.

Audimorte: I hate to nerf so soon after it got in, but it is insanely bulky and hard to break, both in and out of mega form. 103/116/116 bulk with Regenerator or Fur Coat is just incredible defensively. 116 Def with a neutral nature and Fur Coat comes out to 662. Even though it has to rely on Wish for recovery, running Regenerator allows it act as a near unbreakable wish passer. The mega is honestly less broken and I like the idea of it having Natural Cure, but 103/156/156 defenses is almost on par with Giratina level bulk. I think reducing defenses to a reasonable level and at the very least removing Fur Coat from the base would allow this to be a more balanced wall.

Those are the most obviously broken things to me. Other things probably require Playtesting. Please bring up other things that you think could be suspect. I hope this sparks some initial discussion on balance!
 
For the pre-playtesting part of balancing, I want to bring up a probably controversial suggestion: Removing some custom elements. Now, I like custom elements! That's why I allowed them in the first place. But we have a very large amount right now and many of them seem unnecessary. I think we should remove custom elements that the evo is unlikely to use. Here is a list of customs that I think could be removed simply because they feel tacked on:
- Cast Iron: This could be replaced with Filter.
- Defibrillator: Doubles only ability?
- Toxic Buildup: Would never be used
- Tin Fins: I don't think an Alomomola evo needs this, it would likely run Scald even off of 40 SpA
- Possibly Waterwheel or Cornered: 2 custom abilities on a pokemon in a split line with 4 total customs feels like too much, I think removing one of these would be a good idea.
- Spirit Steal: Am I remembering wrong, or did this get removed from Mausolectre for balance reasons? If it did, it's still listed in the spreadsheet, and if it didn't, it should be because strength sap is pretty dumb.

These are just possible things that could be removed to reduce clutter and make it easier to get into. This is not final in any way and feedback is necessary. If anyone, especially the creator, has a strong objection to these being removed, speak up. Also, if anyone has something else that they think feels unnecessary, let us know, especially if you're the creator.

There are also some things I think need to be nerfed right off the bat.
Ectitan and Mosskiff: Great defensive typings, great stats, and great abilities. Anchored is a borderline broken ability that makes hazard stacking extremely hard to deal with, especially on a bulky pokemon with good offensive presence. I think nerfing the bulk of each by a little bit and nerfing or removing Anchored would make both of these a lot easier to deal with.

Audimorte: I hate to nerf so soon after it got in, but it is insanely bulky and hard to break, both in and out of mega form. 103/116/116 bulk with Regenerator or Fur Coat is just incredible defensively. 116 Def with a neutral nature and Fur Coat comes out to 662. Even though it has to rely on Wish for recovery, running Regenerator allows it act as a near unbreakable wish passer. The mega is honestly less broken and I like the idea of it having Natural Cure, but 103/156/156 defenses is almost on par with Giratina level bulk. I think reducing defenses to a reasonable level and at the very least removing Fur Coat from the base would allow this to be a more balanced wall.

Those are the most obviously broken things to me. Other things probably require Playtesting. Please bring up other things that you think could be suspect. I hope this sparks some initial discussion on balance!
Cast Iron: can probably be replaced with Filter. The gimicky teambuilder stuff isn't worth a rename.
Defribilator: I'll probably come up with a replacement ability. It is useless in it's current state
Toxic Buildup: Keep it IMO
Tin Fins: Keep it IMO. It would get used occasionally, especially since the Pokemon has a decent attack stat. Alomomola's Evo doesn't play like Alomomola
Waterwheel and Cornered: See below
Spirit Steal: It affects Special Defense now, which means that Maus will be breakable.

NGL, I might try to remake Ectitan and Mosskiff if they are a problem.
 
Yeah, if nothing else I think Fur Coat on a mon with great HP and a Defense stat of 268 with no investment should be removed above anything else. I think if we messed around with the stats on the base, we might even get something workable with Fluffy (along the lines of like 86 Def with the leftover points pumped into Attack, Sp. Atk, Speed, etc.). Otherwise, though, I think just replacing Fur Coat with something else and taking some points out of Defenses and distributing them among HP, Atk, SpA and Speed somewhat evenly would solve the Audimorte problem, at least.

After taking a look at Anchored, I think what makes the most sense both flavor-wise and balance-wise is to just remove its secondary effect and make it a Suction Cups clone. Moskiff already provides a fantastic defensive typing with Steel-Grass and great hazard control to any team with Wash Away, so I don't really see why it would need this extra strength to justify its use.
 
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I'll weigh in on some specifics:
The following custom elements are safe to remove in my opinion:
Cast Iron: replace with Filter
Defribilator: remove ( or replace with a flavor ability ) - Elphys already has Triage and Regenerator, and looks incredibly strong.
Toxic Buildup: Agreed that nobody would ever use this, it competes with Intimidate and Swift Swim - remove or replace with a flavor ability
Mental Drain: Psychoglyph is unlikely to give up Magic Guard or Tinted lens just for a Psychic immunity

These elements aren't exactly bad, but they also are worse than other abilities the same pokemon has access to, so they're worth mentioning:
Pixie Shield: Strong Jaw is the whole point of Fangnaf. Fairy immunity on a Dark type may sound amazing, but on a frail pokemon with weak STABs, an immediate 50% damage boost is going to be better.
Winter's Gift: Obviously this goes on Hail teams, but those aren't a thing and I'm not convinced Primebird can make them one.
Incendiary: Cinderillo gets Sheer Force, and it isn't particularly fast or bulky, so I don't see it ever going for burns to set up a 50% multiplier when it can run Life Orb Sheer Force for a 69% multiplier and no set up.
Fortress Wall: Realistically as a Normal / Ground type, Cowfort is going to want to run Sap Sipper 9 times out of 10.
Tin Fins: I don't mind removing this. If Alominium ran a Steel move it definitely would run this, but it's probably going to run a Water move instead.

As far as balance:
Mosskiff and Ectitan: I'm more concerned about Mosskiff, having one of the best typings in the game, being bulkier than Ferrothorn with reliable recovery to boast over it, and having a hazard removal tool that could realistically break many pokemon's Substitutes. That's all without mentioning the abilities; Anchored automatically blocks Rapid Spin and Defog. In other words, this pokemon singlehandedly turns the hazard game on its head because it's not subject to any of the typical limitations that accompany hazard removal or keeping up your hazards. Considering that Anchored is one of two custom abilities that this pokemon has, and we're currently talking about both nerfing Mosskiff and removing unnessecary abilities, I'd say remove Anchored.

Audimorte: I agree with what Brodaha said about this. This pokemon's bulk would centralize the metagame around pressuring it, as otherwise it will just dismantle any offensive team and pass Wishes for days.

252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Subzero Slammer (200 BP) vs. +2 252 HP / 0 Def Audimorte: 177-208 (43.1 - 50.7%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO

That's a SpD Audimorte.

In both cases I don't want to nerf with one hand and buff with the other. If we actually decide we need to nerf something, then just nerf it. If we don't then don't mess with it. Trying to mix both seems counter productive especially considering that this is all theorymon right now anyway.
 
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earl

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252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Subzero Slammer (200 BP) vs. +2 252 HP / 0 Def Audimorte: 177-208 (43.1 - 50.7%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO

That's a SpD Audimorte.

In both cases I don't want to nerf with one hand and buff with the other. If we actually decide we need to nerf something, then just nerf it. If we don't then don't mess with it. Trying to mix both seems counter productive especially considering that this is all theorymon right now anyway.
Doesn't affect the fact that Audimorte is broken but it's funny that you calc'd a Kyurem-Black attacking it, as Kyub would ignore Fur Coat, making it one of the few Pokemon that could even hope to break the thing.
 
Toxic Buildup is one of the abilities of my Fugishimi, I would agree replacing it with Poison Point (in Qwilfish's same ability slot).
 

Samtendo09

Ability: Light Power
is a Pre-Contributor
Pixie Shield: Strong Jaw is the whole point of Fangnaf. Fairy immunity on a Dark type may sound amazing, but on a frail pokemon with weak STABs, an immediate 50% damage boost is going to be better.
Agreed after looking back on Fangnaf. Its almost like Fangnaf is being made to make Strong Jaw genuinely viable on a non-Mega Pokemon; Crunch and Psychic Fangs for STABs, and then you have Poison Fangs as well which, while not a powerful coverage move on its own, have a nasty 50% chance to inflict Toxic which is never good news for almost everybody else who have no ways to deal with Toxic without support from clerics.

How did no one commented on Sorbtisc's insane potentials on a rain team despite being mentioned by Brodaha earlier where he called insane out of the three new Evos with Swift Swim? At least it doesn't learn Nasty Plot because otherwise phooey that will be horrifying to deal with during a rain.
 
I do feel comfortable nerfing the extent of Anchored and taking other tools away from Mosskiff, but I'd prefer to keep Anchored in some form.

Potential Nerf Ideas:
1) Anchored prevents ALL hazards from being removed. This is the only effect. (Mosskiff can now remove hazards or prevent their removal. No in between)
2) Removing reliable recovery and making it reliant on Horn Leech or something to heal itself. (Since base Dhel gets Synthesis, maybe make this an affect of Anchored)
3) Stat nerf, simple as that
 
I'll weigh in on some specifics:
The following custom elements are safe to remove in my opinion:
Cast Iron: replace with Filter
Defribilator: remove ( or replace with a flavor ability ) - Elphys already has Triage and Regenerator, and looks incredibly strong.
Toxic Buildup: Agreed that nobody would ever use this, it competes with Intimidate and Swift Swim - remove or replace with a flavor ability
Mental Drain: Psychoglyph is unlikely to give up Magic Guard or Tinted lens just for a Psychic immunity

These elements aren't exactly bad, but they also are worse than other abilities the same pokemon has access to, so they're worth mentioning:
Pixie Shield: Strong Jaw is the whole point of Fangnaf. Fairy immunity on a Dark type may sound amazing, but on a frail pokemon with weak STABs, an immediate 50% damage boost is going to be better.
Winter's Gift: Obviously this goes on Hail teams, but those aren't a thing and I'm not convinced Primebird can make them one.
Incendiary: Cinderillo gets Sheer Force, and it isn't particularly fast or bulky, so I don't see it ever going for burns to set up a 50% multiplier when it can run Life Orb Sheer Force for a 69% multiplier and no set up.
Fortress Wall: Realistically as a Normal / Ground type, Cowfort is going to want to run Sap Sipper 9 times out of 10.
Tin Fins: I don't mind removing this. If Alominium ran a Steel move it definitely would run this, but it's probably going to run a Water move instead.

As far as balance:
Mosskiff and Ectitan: I'm more concerned about Mosskiff, having one of the best typings in the game, being bulkier than Ferrothorn with reliable recovery to boast over it, and having a hazard removal tool that could realistically break many pokemon's Substitutes. That's all without mentioning the abilities; Anchored automatically blocks Rapid Spin and Defog. In other words, this pokemon singlehandedly turns the hazard game on its head because it's not subject to any of the typical limitations that accompany hazard removal or keeping up your hazards. Considering that Anchored is one of two custom abilities that this pokemon has, and we're currently talking about both nerfing Mosskiff and removing unnessecary abilities, I'd say remove Anchored.

Audimorte: I agree with what Brodaha said about this. This pokemon's bulk would centralize the metagame around pressuring it, as otherwise it will just dismantle any offensive team and pass Wishes for days.

252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Subzero Slammer (200 BP) vs. +2 252 HP / 0 Def Audimorte: 177-208 (43.1 - 50.7%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO

That's a SpD Audimorte.

In both cases I don't want to nerf with one hand and buff with the other. If we actually decide we need to nerf something, then just nerf it. If we don't then don't mess with it. Trying to mix both seems counter productive especially considering that this is all theorymon right now anyway.
* Cast Iron: Removal is okay with me. Filter replacement
* Defribilator: Removal is okay with me. This ability is useless. Replacement IDK
* Toxic Buildup: Removal is okay with me. Replacement could be Merciless?
* Mental Drain: Removal is okay with me. Replacement IDK.
* Pixie Shield is niche, but I'd keep it in.
* Winter's Gift: Removal is okay with me. Just give the thing Snow Warning.
* Incendiary: The purpose of this ability is so that hazard spreading/defensive Cinderillo can still deal some hefty damage. It's strictly worse on an offensive Cinderillo, but it never was supposed to be better than Sheer Force. It's probably bias, but I want to keep it in.
* Fortress Wall: Change it and make it a 1.5 increase to defense. Double Vest is a cool gimmick.
* Tin Fins: Another case where I definitely want to keep it. It might not see use right away, but it's a cool tool all the same
 
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Paint Stroke: Opposing Pokemon changes type to match the type of Smeargle's last move (reverse Color Change).
ToadBrigade, could you clarify what this does? I assume it means every time Smeargle uses a move it changes the opposing pokemon's type, but I'm not sure.

Mind Bend (all moves used by this Pokemon and all moves used on this Pokemon are calculated using inverse type matchups)
And also how does this ability handle immunities?
 
Also, it came to my attention that I screwed up Meteocules stats miserably. It was intended to have 90 HP, 90 Atk, 85 Def, 90 SpAtk, 85 SpDef, and 90 Speed.

:Facepalms:
 
ToadBrigade, could you clarify what this does? I assume it means every time Smeargle uses a move it changes the opposing pokemon's type, but I'm not sure.


And also how does this ability handle immunities?
Pretty much. If Smeargle uses Rapid Spin, the opposing Pokemon would change type to Normal. Doesn't work through sub, doesn't change status conditions (a burned Pokemon will still be burned if changed to Fire type), has no effect if Pokemon is immune/move fails/misses. Should follow the same limitations as Colour Change.
 
Pretty much. If Smeargle uses Rapid Spin, the opposing Pokemon would change type to Normal. Doesn't work through sub, doesn't change status conditions (a burned Pokemon will still be burned if changed to Fire type), has no effect if Pokemon is immune/move fails/misses. Should follow the same limitations as Colour Change.
Does it have to be a move that targets the opponent? Will it change their type if it uses Quiver Dance or Protect? Also what about Mind Bend and immunities ( both offensive and defensive )?
 
Does it have to be a move that targets the opponent? Will it change their type if it uses Quiver Dance or Protect? Also what about Mind Bend and immunities ( both offensive and defensive )?
Has to be targeted (Toxic and targetted status moves will trigger the ability but not hazards, set up moves, etc.), immunities have no effect, Mind Bend works as usual so Shadow Sneak will turn Orangchakra into a Ghost type. Hope that all makes sense.
 
Revised nerf suggestions after some feedback and playtesting

After chewing on this for a few days, here is a relatively zealous list of nerfs to consider. Unlike the previous post where I mentioned a few things that I didn't necessarily want to remove, I really do think these nerfs are all warranted. These are just suggestions.

Mosskiff: I ran this change by Author already. It incorporates his nerfed version of Anchored. It now has to choose between blocking both Rapid Spin and Defog or having a strong attack that removes hazards. It doesn't hard outclass Ferrothorn anymore, which is probably a good sign. It's still a really bulky Grass/Steel with reliable recovery and amazing support.

nerf suggestion: -5 Def, -5 SpD, Anchored prevents hazard removal on both sides, remove Spikes.

Audimorte: Definitely insanely too bulky, and any ability that would get used over Regenerator is likely to be broken. A Fairy type with Regenerator that's bulkier than Mew is going to have a niche anyway.

nerf suggestion: -10 Def, -10 SpD, remove Fur Coat

Ectitan: With 130 Base Atk, Spirit Shackle and Heavy Slam, and an ability that adds up to 33 base power to its moves, This has the strongest Ghost and Steel moves around. Most of the new attackers are Psychic, Flying, Fighting, and Normal, so it's also increadibly defensively useful, on top of spin and spinblocking. I think that 130 SpD is too much in combination with everything else, allowing it to come in far too easily.

nerf: -5 Def, -5 SpDef

Chimpancieve: This thing's stats are just insane. If you added 30 SpA it would be the most minmaxed 600 BST mon in the game. It just needs to be toned down a bit, it's still pretty outrageous with a few stat nerfs.

nerf suggestion: -5 Atk, -10 SpD, -10 Spe

Oranchakra: Right now this thing has a pretty ridiculous set of customs on top of its god-like bulk. Mind Bend reverses its type matchups both offensively and defensively. The result of this is INCREDIBLE for it, having one weakness to Psychic, and Psychic STAB that is only resisted by Poison and Fighting while hitting Psychic, Steel, and Dark super effectively. Energy Block is an Aurora Veil variant for Trick Room, which is a niche all unto itself. It has good offensive presence and ridiculous bulk, so it's almost never going to be prevented from setting this up. Energy Block is what pushes it over the edge IMO, but it could be balanced if the stats weren't as amazing.

nerf suggestion: -10 Def, -5 SpA, -10 SpD, or remove Energy Block;

Emolgarus: Ate-Speed is something I'm very skeptical of in general, Emolgarus has 115 base Attack and 123 base Speed, which honestly looks like gen 6 Talonflame on steroids. This is one of a few pokemon running around spamming unbelieveably strong Flying-type moves that probably needs to be toned down.

nerf suggestion: remove Extremespeed

Chelyor: Ozone Burst getting stronger than Hurricane off of 120 SpA seems like too much on a Shell Smash sweeper, especially when full physical is equally viable. Probably should be toned down a bit.

nerf suggestion: -5 Atk, -5 SpA; Ozone Burst -5 BP

Alloyal: Shift Gear is going to make this a really strong offense killer because it will outspeed everything after Shift Gear, set up rather easily with the physical bulk of Mega Scizor, and kill most offensive pokemon with boosted 130 Base Atk. Earthquake smashes too many bulky pokemon that really should counter such a speed demon. Also Hustle makes it just ridiculous, and distracts from the custom ability that it has anyway.

nerf suggestion: remove Earthquake, add Drill Run, remove Hustle
 
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After chewing on this for a few days, here is a relatively zealous list of nerfs to consider. Unlike the previous post where I mentioned a few things that I didn't necessarily want to remove, I really do think these nerfs are all warranted. These are just suggestions.

Mosskiff: I ran this change by Author already. It incorporates his nerfed version of Anchored. It now has to choose between blocking both Rapid Spin and Defog or having a strong attack that removes hazards. It doesn't hard outclass Ferrothorn anymore, which is probably a good sign. It's still a really bulky Grass/Steel with reliable recovery and amazing support.

nerf suggestion: -10 Def, -10 SpD, Anchored prevents hazard removal on both sides, remove Spikes.

Audimorte: Definitely insanely too bulky, and any ability that would get used over Regenerator is likely to be broken. A Fairy type with Regenerator that's bulkier than Mew is going to have a niche anyway.

nerf suggestion: -10 Def, -10 SpD, remove Fur Coat

Ectitan: With 130 Base Atk, Spirit Shackle and Heavy Slam, and an ability that adds up to 33 base power to its moves, This has the strongest Ghost and Steel moves around. Most of the new attackers are Psychic, Flying, Fighting, and Normal, so it's also increadibly defensively useful, on top of spin and spinblocking. I think that 130 SpD is too much in combination with everything else, allowing it to come in far too easily.

nerf: -15 SpD

Chimpancieve: This thing's stats are just insane. If you added 30 SpA it would be the most minmaxed 600 BST mon in the game. It just needs to be toned down a bit, it's still pretty outrageous with a few stat nerfs.

nerf suggestion: -5 Atk, -10 SpD, -10 Spe

Oranchakra: Right now this thing has a pretty ridiculous set of customs on top of its god-like bulk. Mind Bend reverses its type matchups both offensively and defensively. The result of this is INCREDIBLE for it, having one weakness to Psychic, as well as unresisted Normal STAB that hits Rock, Steel, and Ghost Super Effectively. Energy Block is an Aurora Veil variant for Trick Room, which is a niche all unto itself. It has good offensive presence and ridiculous bulk, so it's almost never going to be prevented from setting this up. This needs some serious intervention IMO.

nerf suggestion: -10 Def, -10 SpA, -10 SpD, or remove Energy Block

Emolgarus: Ate-Speed is something I'm very skeptical of in general, Emolgarus has 115 base Attack and 123 base Speed, which honestly looks like gen 6 Talonflame on steroids. This is one of a few pokemon running around spamming unbelieveably strong Flying-type moves that probably needs to be toned down.

nerf suggestion: remove Extremespeed

Chelyor: Ozone Burst getting stronger than Hurricane off of 120 SpA seems like too much on a Shell Smash sweeper, especially when full physical is equally viable. Probably should be toned down a bit.

nerf suggestion: Core - 5 Def, -5 SpD; Meteor -5 Atk, -5 SpA; Ozone Burst -10 BP

Canard: Canard's autocrit 120 BP STABs backed up by 108 base Speed are ridiculous, this has been on my radar for quite a while.

nerf suggestion: -10 Atk

Alloyal: Shift Gear is going to make this a really strong offense killer because it will outspeed everything after Shift Gear, set up rather easily with the physical bulk of Mega Scizor, and kill most offensive pokemon with boosted 130 Base Atk. Earthquake smashes too many bulky pokemon that really should counter such a speed demon. Also Hustle makes it just ridiculous, and distracts from the custom ability that it has anyway.

nerf suggestion: remove Earthquake, add Drill Run, remove Hustle
I can't say for any Pokemon but my own but here's what I'd do:
-10 Defense and -5 Special Defense to Mosskiff. (+5 speed so I don't have to nerf Ectitan too much) Anchored Change.
-5 Defense and -5 Special Defense to Ectitan
All changes for Alloyal are fine with me. Replace Hustle with Technician or Innards Out
 
Emolgarus: Ate-Speed is something I'm very skeptical of in general, Emolgarus has 115 base Attack and 123 base Speed, which honestly looks like gen 6 Talonflame on steroids. This is one of a few pokemon running around spamming unbelieveably strong Flying-type moves that probably needs to be toned down.

nerf suggestion: remove Extremespeed
As Emolgarus’ creator I’m totally fine with this; I think there is a key difference between it and Talonflame in that the latter had set-up options in SD and Bulk Up, but i do recognize that Emolgarus’ much higher base Attack stat does make it inheritly suspect, especially when equipped with a Choice Band or Life Orb. This is why I stuck with Hyper Voice over Boomburst, as we all know how broken -ateBurst would be.
 
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I figured since we're bringing down the nerf hammer, now would be a good time to start documenting balance history. I went ahead and added a new sheet to our spreadsheet, take a look and tell me if there's anything I missed.
 
The code has been updated!

Go ahead and make some teams and get on Dragon Heaven! Test the pokemon that are being talked about or anything else, and help develop a metagame before the E4E open starts. We are on a submission hiatus until the tournament, so you can learn the meta without it changing too much ( aside from any balance changes that may happen )
 

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