Follow The Leader [Pre Viability Ranking Discussion!]

They actually aren't identical, as nidoking has one extra move. That, plus its better stats, means that almost any time you'd use nidoqueen, nidoking is better. Only the fact that it can potentially make a bulky set, if for whatever reason that is absolutely neccesary, is why it should be ranked at all.
Realistically, you should never use queen, even if it isn't bad. It's like Blissey in BH, only more so.
Actually, Nidoqueen gets Crunch and Pursuit which King doesn't and is a huge plus since it adds a physical SF move to get past Psychics and Ghost types as well as giving any Dark types a nice STAB and a trapping option. I've been running both on a LO Weavile and the thing has been ripping through teams. Head Smash is nice, but doesn't take advantage of SF and fit onto any Pokemon as well as Crunch and Pursuit fit onto Weavile and Tyranitar.
 
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so idk how nobody has mentioned this, but somewhere (id say A rank at least, but feel free to differ) carracosta should definitely be on here.
Abilities: Sturdy (the best one in most cases) / Swift Swim (very situational) / Solid Rock (very situational)
Status Moves: Shell Smash, Stealth Rock, Curse, Iron Defense
Physical Moves: Aqua Jet, Rapid Spin, Stone Edge, Rock Slide, Iron Head, Earthquake, Crunch, Knock Off, Low Kick, Superpower, Waterfall, Zen Headbutt
Special Moves: Earth Power, Scald, Focus Blast, Ice Beam, Ancient Power, Icy Wind, Surf

I have used Carracosta as my leader on my current follow the leader team, and it has been a very successful leader, as it gets up stealth rocks fairly easily in most cases, and also it allows the rest of my team to then sturdy shell smash sweep, with Excadrill, Mega Gyarados, Garchomp, Keldeo, and Landorus-T. It has a decent movepool to pick from (I listed the moves that make it stand out from other leaders above), and also provides access to things like hazard removal, and a great variety of offensive moves.
 

G-Luke

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Sableye is S rank because while it only supports stall and semistall builds, its literally the one of the best options for Stall and does the best against the "Stall-Beating" leaders such as Kecleon or Zoroark due to Prankster on all the important moves like Will o Wisp, Recover and Taunt (it also has an excellent matchup against opposing stall teams). Mega Sableye provides hazard control. And one thing that people dont recognize is that Sableye isnt all passive. I personally run both Gengar and an offensive Dark type to spice things up. The ability to run defensive behemoths such as Chansey, Cressilia and Skarmory and combine it with Prankster WoW, Taunt and Recover basically invalidate Set Up, Stall Breaking, hazards and physical attackers. The ability to THAT is huuuge for a stall team, and cements the fact that its worthy of its S-Rank.


Quantum Tesseract you are really underselling Mew here. Although its ability is ok at best its movepool MORE than makes up for it. Special attackers and physical attackers galore (I didnt even know it had Vacuum Wave until I got rvenged by it) are supported by it. Its the best leader for balance, a top offence contender and can even pull its own stall team. The real reason why I believe Mew deserves S-Rank is you simply cannot prepare for a Mew team. A team that does really well against one Mew build crumples against another. Unlike the other S-Rank members, one simply cannot assume what a Mew team will do from preview. Some might say Syncronise (which isnt a bad ability at all, as it punishes Scald spam, Yellow Magic and can be brutal if follower is holding Lum, just outclassed) nerfs it, I believe its the only thing holding it back from being banned.

The S Ranks stay.
 
Nidoqueen has Crunch, Pursuit, Aerial Ace, Charm, and I guess Leer over Nidoking. If you don't care about those, Nidoking will usually be better, because it has some Physical moves Nidoqueen doesn't and its Special movepool is 100% superior, but Crunch, Pursuit, and with the right allies Aerial Ace are all pretty substantial points, and even Charm can be relevant, such as if you run Mega Banette and so appreciate a Prankster Attack drop.
 
I didn't see any Special moves Nidoking gets that Queen doesn't. Its exclusives are Horn Attack, Horn Drill, Head Smash, and Megahorn. The first two are useless in competitive play period while the last two are good moves that don't really make a good use of his ability. I mean, HS Archeops will hit like a truck, but that recoil will still hurt. Crunch makes physical SF sets more viable since a weakness for both of them is the lack of strong SF physical moves and Pursuit is always good to have period.

As for Charm, I guess I can see that, but honestly Mega Metagross is a much better use of a Mega with the Nidos. Tough Claws/Iron Tail/Earthquake/Sucker Punch with max HP/Attack EVs is a force to be reckoned with.
 
Latios for B+

Abilities: Levitate
Recovery: Roost, Recover
Boosting: Calm Mind, Dragon Dance, Hone Claws (tailwind, Light Screen/Reflect)
Priority: None
Hazards: None
Hazard Removal: Defog
Utility: Tailwind, Light Screen/Reflect, Memento, Roar, Trick, Thunder Wave, Toxic duh
Notable Attacks: Draco Meteor, Dragon Claw, Dragon Pulse, Earthquake, Energy Ball, Ice Beam, Luster Purge lol, Outrage, Psychic, Psyshock, Shadow Ball, Shadow Claw, Steel Wing, Stored Power(?), Surf, Thunder, Tunderbolt, Waterfall, Zen Headbutt
Overall Attack Diversity: Good

Thoughts: Latios is a good mon in it's own right, meaning as opposed to some leads, it can be used in an actual 6 on 6 battle as opposed to having a useless lead that has the moves/abilities to make a team work. Additionally, it's move pool consists of quite a few physical and special moves. However of these moves there aren't too many mons that can abuse them all to their full extent, but the few that can are very threatening (DDance MMetagross for example). The ability Levitate basically gives your entire team an immunity to the ever common earthquake and can lead to having Steel types, Mono-electric types, and mons that have few or an exclusive ground weakness like drapion to become very viable and threatening. physical/special sweepers w/ CM and DDance respectively can become viable w/ an immunity to such a common offensive type while making those mons like drapion viable by giving physical and special walls/ access to reliable recovery, Twave, and Tailwind (although drapion might not be the best option, i do like using it as a wall/utility mon).
 
I didn't see any Special moves Nidoking gets that Queen doesn't. Its exclusives are Horn Attack, Horn Drill, Head Smash, and Megahorn. The first two are useless in competitive play period while the last two are good moves that don't really make a good use of his ability. I mean, HS Archeops will hit like a truck, but that recoil will still hurt. Crunch makes physical SF sets more viable since a weakness for both of them is the lack of strong SF physical moves and Pursuit is always good to have period.

As for Charm, I guess I can see that, but honestly Mega Metagross is a much better use of a Mega with the Nidos. Tough Claws/Iron Tail/Earthquake/Sucker Punch with max HP/Attack EVs is a force to be reckoned with.
Nidoking also has Thrash, which can be useful for things like rampaging via Mega Pinsir or Mega Altaria.

I actually missed that Nidoqueen has Skull Bash, Poison Fang, and Bite over Nidoking. Skull Bash is pretty irrelevant, but Poison Fang can be used to push Toxic onto Magic Bounce 'mons if you don't want to run Mega Gyarados or Mega Ampharos, and Bite is stronger Dark coverage for Mega Scizor than Crunch. They're small things, but they're things.

Head Smash Archeops is not to be underestimated, as an aside.
 
The real question is are these good idea for the Nidos? Poison Fang won't poison any targets because of SF and Poison Jab is stronger than it. Besides, look at the Magic Bounce users: Mega Diance, Mega Sableye, Mega Absol, Espeon, and Xatu. Those last two aren't great leaders despite amazing abilities for it because their movepools are too shallow to do well against too many teams (I'm sure they'd do ridiculously well against stall, but offense and balanced would destroy them) while the first three are Megas so they can't share with the others. And with all of these, high powered attacks are a better solution since Sheer Force is a wallbreaking ability. Mega Absol has zero bulk, Mega Diance can still be OHKO'd by neutral SF moves from the right teammate and has a lot of weaknesses to exploit and Mega Sableye is bulky, but SF users are called wallbreakers for a reason.

Bite on Scizor isn't really that good an idea since the Nidos lack proper stab for Mega Scizor. King is the only one of the two to offer it a Bug STAB with Megahorn. Both give it Iron Tail, but it needs Hone Claws to make that work and it doesn't play into Scizor's Technician strengths. Scizor is also reliant on priority which they can only give it Sucker Punch, which again, doesn't get a Technician boost. Mega Metagross outclasses Mega Scizor in every way since it gets a Tough Claws bonus for both its STAB Iron Tail and Sucker Punch. The only advantage Scizor over Meta has are Double Kick, Bulldoze, Rock Tomb, Pursuit and Smack Down, none of which scream to use it over TC Iron Tail and Sucker Punch.

Thrash on Pinsir and Altaria is admittedly pretty great, but hast two issues. The first, is both Nidos get Double Edge, which is a better move for them. Second you're better off with Feraligatr, Tyranitar, Salamence, Gyarados, or Tyrantrum (All of which bar Ttrum get DE also) for that so you can Dragon Dance first. The only way Thrash would be good without a boost is on a CB. Without an attack boost, they can't wallbreak with it and without a speed boost they're a prime target for revenge killers. As for Head Smash, I never underestimated it. My point was make Tyrantrum your leader if you want it on Archeops then get some other Pokemon to cover up their shared weaknesses. If you're using the Nidos, focus on their strengths, ie Sheer Force boosted moves on a diverse movepool. Otherwise, you might as well use something else.

Basically, Crunch and Pursuit are the only two standout exclusive moves. A leader should be able to provide a movepool which is prepared for anything, or at the bare minimum, can adjust to anything. Without Crunch, there are zero physical SF boosted moves which hit Ghosts and Psychics hard. And Pursuit is just always a fantastic option, especially if something gets STAB. Everything else is either only an option with a Pokemon that has poor synergy with the Nidos or better used on a different leader.

As for Latios, I'm not sure if it's B+ quality. It's offensive movepool isn't quite broad enough to hit a lot of Pokemon hard, and a Levitate leader who can't support Heatran feels wrong.
 
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The real question is are these good idea for the Nidos? Poison Fang won't poison any targets because of SF and Poison Jab is stronger than it. Besides, look at the Magic Bounce users: Mega Diance, Mega Sableye, Mega Absol, Espeon, and Xatu. Those last two aren't great leaders despite amazing abilities for it because their movepools are too shallow to do well against too many teams (I'm sure they'd do ridiculously well against stall, but offense and balanced would destroy them) while the first three are Megas so they can't share with the others. And with all of these, high powered attacks are a better solution since Sheer Force is a wallbreaking ability. Mega Absol has zero bulk, Mega Diance can still be OHKO'd by neutral SF moves from the right teammate and has a lot of weaknesses to exploit and Mega Sableye is bulky, but SF users are called wallbreakers for a reason.
Sheer Force is not Nidoqueen or Nidoking's only Ability. Generally best, yes, but not only. Also, if for some reason you run Mega Scizor and want it able to drop Toxic on things, Poison Fang is only slightly weaker than Poison Jab thanks to Technician.

Bite on Scizor isn't really that good an idea since the Nidos lack proper stab for Mega Scizor. King is the only one of the two to offer it a Bug STAB with Megahorn. Both give it Iron Tail, but it needs Hone Claws to make that work and it doesn't play into Scizor's Technician strengths. Scizor is also reliant on priority which they can only give it Sucker Punch, which again, doesn't get a Technician boost. Mega Metagross outclasses Mega Scizor in every way since it gets a Tough Claws bonus for both its STAB Iron Tail and Sucker Punch. The only advantage Scizor over Meta has are Double Kick, Bulldoze, Rock Tomb, Pursuit and Smack Down, none of which scream to use it over TC Iron Tail and Sucker Punch.
Mega Scizor's typing is much less exploitable. Main problem is that neither of the Nido royals provides recovery to really exploit the bulk.

Thrash on Pinsir and Altaria is admittedly pretty great, but hast two issues. The first, is both Nidos get Double Edge, which is a better move for them.
Massive recoil damage isn't better than being locked in and eventually confused if you expect to sweep anyway, and they have the same BP.

Second you're better off with Feraligatr, Tyranitar, Salamence, Gyarados, or Tyrantrum (All of which bar Ttrum get DE also) for that so you can Dragon Dance first.
This is irrelevant to the point. The point is that if you're running Nidoking, it can bring Thrash Mega Altaria or Mega Pinsir to the table. That there are better leaders for a follower doesn't mean that follower is bad for that leader. If you're running a Nidoqueen team and find yourself desperately wanting a brutal Physical wallbreaker, Nidoking can fill that via Head Smash and/or -ated Trash and/or Megahorn. Nidoqueen just plain cannot match it in that realm.

The only way Thrash would be good without a boost is on a CB. Without an attack boost, they can't wallbreak with it and without a speed boost they're a prime target for revenge killers. As for Head Smash, I never underestimated it. My point was make Tyrantrum your leader if you want it on Archeops then get some other Pokemon to cover up their shared weaknesses. If you're using the Nidos, focus on their strengths, ie Sheer Force boosted moves on a diverse movepool. Otherwise, you might as well use something else.
This is baffling logic. Nidoking might as well run Head Smash Archeops or the like if you're running Nidoking. It's not like Sheer Force provides you anything that outright out-damages Head Smash or something. Sheer Force is not that helpful for helping you break stuff like Chansey.

That other Pokemon provide more amazing Head Smashes is in no way shape or a form a statement that Nidoking shouldn't run Head Smash. The only way this would be relevant would be if Head Smash was literally the only reason to ever use Nidoking over anything -not "Head Smash is the biggest reason to use it over Nidoqueen", but "Nidoking is a godawful leader except it has Head Smash."

It's also baffling to me that you cite Crunch as a way to hit Ghosts and Psychics hard and ignore how ungodly lethal Head Smash is in general. Banded Head Smash off of STAB actually hits Psychic and Ghost type Pokemon harder than an off-STAB Sheer Force Life Orb Crunch.

252 Atk Choice Band Archeops Head Smash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 388-457 (113.7 - 134%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Archeops Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 312-369 (91.4 - 108.2%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

Now obviously a STAB Crunch will hit still harder, but this is already crazy-lethal, with it demanding fairly specialized walls -Steelix, Mega Aggron, that kind of thing- to be able to casually switch into it, and Nidoking provides enough coverage moves that most of those are unlikely to be a 100% safe switch anyway. (Archeops, in particular, can use stuff like Sheer Force-boosted Earth Power to punish expected switch-ins of these Physical walls -it's got the Special Attack for it)

As for Latios, I'm not sure if it's B+ quality. It's offensive movepool isn't quite broad enough to hit a lot of Pokemon hard, and a Levitate leader who can't support Heatran feels wrong.
I've liked Latias more, myself, but Dragon Dance isn't available to Latias, so Latios definitely has a niche over it.

They do both work okay for a stalltran, or a Trick-Choice stallbreaker. I've got a Latias team where my Heatran is Trick-Choice, using Whirlpool to do stuff like trap Chansey and have Toxic kill it. Which, yes, is a really weird build, but it actually works pretty okay. STABs would be nice, but are not necessary -though I'll readily admit Hydreigon is probably a better leader for Heatran per se.
 
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Sheer Force is not Nidoqueen or Nidoking's only Ability. Generally best, yes, but not only. Also, if for some reason you run Mega Scizor and want it able to drop Toxic on things, Poison Fang is only slightly weaker than Poison Jab thanks to Technician.
Just because you have the option doesn't mean it's a good option. This applies to both Poison Point on a defensive Pokemon with no real recovery options and Poison Fang. I mean, no one runs Toxic on a Scizor, they run attacks, Defog, Roost and Swords Dance. Those are Scizor's strengths, not playing to them for a move with a small hax chance makes no sense.

Mega Scizor's typing is much less exploitable. Main problem is that neither of the Nido royals provides recovery to really exploit the bulk.
So a less exploitable typing is worth using a Pokemon with lower speed, fewer moves to take advantage of its ability, lower power, and a still exploitable typing thanks to 4x Fire Weakness? I mean, Mega Metagross is bulky enough that it can usually take a physical Fire/Ghost/Dark/Ground hit. There are other leaders that play into Mega Scizor's strengths and other Megas that play into the Nido's strengths. Mega Scizor just isn't viable on a Nido set.

Massive recoil damage isn't better than being locked in and eventually confused if you expect to sweep anyway, and they have the same BP.
It definitely is if you don't have a speed boost. And the average Mega Salamence set would disagree with you there since Double Edge is very common while Thrash is almost nonexistent. You're guaranteed a revenge kill next turn. Anyways, moot point on the subject of Nidos since they have no good boosting moves for Thrash. Thrash is either a Choice Band move meant to destroy a target easily (which can't be used on a Mega) or a DDance move so it can't be easily revenge killed. It lacks that extra punch to get the job done without a boost or band.

This is irrelevant to the point. The point is that if you're running Nidoking, it can bring Thrash Mega Altaria or Mega Pinsir to the table. That there are better leaders for a follower doesn't mean that follower is bad for that leader. If you're running a Nidoqueen team and find yourself desperately wanting a brutal Physical wallbreaker, Nidoking can fill that via Head Smash and/or -ated Trash and/or Megahorn. Nidoqueen just plain cannot match it in that realm.
No, it is relevant to the point. You can bring it to the table, I am arguing that it is not a good idea. Like I said, Thrash/Outrage/Petal Dance do not work on a Mega that can't DDance.

This is baffling logic. Nidoking might as well run Head Smash Archeops or the like if you're running Nidoking. It's not like Sheer Force provides you anything that outright out-damages Head Smash or something. Sheer Force is not that helpful for helping you break stuff like Chansey.

That other Pokemon provide more amazing Head Smashes is in no way shape or a form a statement that Nidoking shouldn't run Head Smash. The only way this would be relevant would be if Head Smash was literally the only reason to ever use Nidoking over anything -not "Head Smash is the biggest reason to use it over Nidoqueen", but "Nidoking is a godawful leader except it has Head Smash."

It's also baffling to me that you cite Crunch as a way to hit Ghosts and Psychics hard and ignore how ungodly lethal Head Smash is in general. Banded Head Smash off of STAB actually hits Psychic and Ghost type Pokemon harder than an off-STAB Sheer Force Life Orb Crunch.

252 Atk Choice Band Archeops Head Smash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 388-457 (113.7 - 134%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Archeops Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 312-369 (91.4 - 108.2%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

Now obviously a STAB Crunch will hit still harder, but this is already crazy-lethal, with it demanding fairly specialized walls -Steelix, Mega Aggron, that kind of thing- to be able to casually switch into it, and Nidoking provides enough coverage moves that most of those are unlikely to be a 100% safe switch anyway. (Archeops, in particular, can use stuff like Sheer Force-boosted Earth Power to punish expected switch-ins of these Physical walls -it's got the Special Attack for it)
A Choice Band Archeops Head Smash does not OHKO max Def Chansey even after SR damage but will take off around 70% of its health. I don't use SF for Chansey, I use a Fighting type. And I'm not saying to NOT use it if you have Nidoking, I'm saying there's too many drawbacks as opposed to Crunch and Pursuit. And yes, it will do ungodly damage to them, but also ungodly damage to Archeops. What I've been saying is play to their strengths. If both had Head Smash, I would have considered a HS Archeops. But given the option between that and Crunch, Crunch is, as a whole, the better option.

You seem to just be going on "These options exist, so consider them" logic when some of these are less viable than Nasty Plot Weavile and others are more niche compared to other offerings. Maybe Head Smash is a better option than Crunch on a few teams, but as a whole I think Crunch and Pursuit will get more mileage.
 
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Just because you have the option doesn't mean it's a good option. This applies to both Poison Point on a defensive Pokemon with no real recovery options and Poison Fang. I mean, no one runs Toxic on a Scizor, they run attacks, Defog, Roost and Swords Dance. Those are Scizor's strengths, not playing to them for a move with a small hax chance makes no sense.
Poison Fang is a 50% chance of Toxic. That's not small. You might be thinking of its pre-Gen VI behavior, where it was 30%.

The fact that no one runs Toxic on Scizor in OU is a specious comparison I can't begin to figure out a good answer to because it's obviously nonsense. Follow The Leader involves non-standard builds, some of which are less-than-optimal compared to what you'd like to do but that are the best you can get for that leader.

So a less exploitable typing is worth using a Pokemon with lower speed, fewer moves to take advantage of its ability, lower power, and a still exploitable typing thanks to 4x Fire Weakness? I mean, Mega Metagross is bulky enough that it can usually take a physical Fire/Ghost/Dark/Ground hit. There are other leaders that play into Mega Scizor's strengths and other Megas that play into the Nido's strengths. Mega Scizor just isn't viable on a Nido set.
You'll note that I pointed out a bigger problem for Mega Scizor is the lack of recovery on the Nidos. I'm agreeing that Mega Scizor is probably not optimal on the Nidos.

It definitely is if you don't have a speed boost.
You're going to have to walk me through how a lack of a Speed boost in any way matters to the discussion of Thrash vs Head Smash, because the point is baffling to me.

And the average Mega Salamence set would disagree with you there since Double Edge is very common while Thrash is almost nonexistent.
This is, again, a specious comparison and ignoring that I laid out exactly when Thrash is the superior choice -when you're cleaning. Mega Salamence runs Double Edge because it's expectation is that it will -ate, Earthquake, or Fire Blast as appropriate to potentially crush an underprepared team. Thrash is the better choice if your plan is to move aside the Rock, Steel, and Electric walls and then bring out your -ate abuser to clean up.

No, it is relevant to the point. You can bring it to the table, I am arguing that it is not a good idea. Like I said, Thrash/Outrage/Petal Dance do not work on a Mega that can't DDance.
Personal experience disagrees.

More importantly: it's irrelevant to the point. Follow The Leader involves making choices that are, from an OU perspective, sub-optimal because they're the best choice you can make with your Leader, who is worth using because of their strengths in other realms. If Head Smash or Thrash is a poor-but-functional way to perform certain forms of hole-punching and the like, then they're still worth keeping in mind as a positive for existing on the Leader.

A Choice Band Archeops Head Smash does not OHKO max Def Chansey even after SR damage but will take off around 70% of its health. I don't use SF for Chansey, I use a Fighting type. And I'm not saying to NOT use it if you have Nidoking, I'm saying there's too many drawbacks as opposed to Crunch and Pursuit. And yes, it will do ungodly damage to them, but also ungodly damage to Archeops. What I've been saying is play to their strengths. If both had Head Smash, I would have considered a HS Archeops. But given the option between that and Crunch, Crunch is, as a whole, the better option.
Actually, a female Archeops running Rivalry will more or less always OHKO it.

252 Atk Choice Band Reckless Archeops Head Smash vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 616-726 (95.9 - 113%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

(For some reason, Rivalry isn't in the calculator. Rivalry is a 25% boost instead of Reckless' 20% boost, so this is a lowball)

That would be a somewhat silly thing to do since it would hurt Archeops' performance against male-only Pokemon (eg Landorus-Therian) and randomly hurt or help against the majority of most Pokemon's teams, but it's still something one could do if one really hated Chansey, or if one wanted to break a specific Physical wall. Cresselia, for instance, is always female, and works pretty well as a Physical wall. (Though even Poison Heal is 2HKOed by Choice Band Archeops Head Smash 98.8% of the time, so Rivalry would really have to be about securing the OHKO on Physically Defensive Florges or something to be particularly justified)

Regardless, part of my point is that Head Smash lets Physical attackers just ruin the staple Physical wall of so many metas, this one included: Skarmory.

252 Atk Choice Band Archeops Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 220-261 (65.8 - 78.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Heck, Life Orb is a 2HKO if you want your Archeops able to attack with other moves. (And don't mind it dying even faster)

Nidoqueen's capacity to point a Physical attacker at the enemy and just ruin a lot of teams is less.

252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Kyurem-B Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 160-188 (47.9 - 56.2%) -- 34.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Now, Kyurem-Black can of course go mixed or smack Skarmory with Fire Punch, but it says something that I'm having to look at Kyurem-Black to give Nidoqueen a comparable option to Nidoking's Head Smash Archeops, and frankly I'm surprised Kyurem-Black hasn't been suspected at any point. I'm not willing to assume it will remain in the tier indefinitely.

You seem to just be going on "These options exist, so consider them" logic when some of these are less viable than Nasty Plot Weavile and others are more niche compared to other offerings. Maybe Head Smash is a better option than Crunch on a few teams, but as a whole I think Crunch and Pursuit will get more mileage.
No, the issue is that you're using backwards logic. The fact that a follower would prefer a different leader does not mean you should not use that follower with that leader. The fact that some other leader gives that follower better results in doing the same core idea does not mean you should not run that follower with that leader. What matters is what the overall performance of a team is/can be, given the leader's options.

Nidoking does things Nidoqueen just plain cannot imitate, and they're not irrelevant things. Arguments like "If you want a Head Smasher, go to Aggron or something" ignore that Aggron doesn't provide Sheer Force, doesn't provide Toxic Spikes, lacks Shadow Ball (eg for Gengar), lacks Sucker Punch, etc etc.

I agree, as I've explicitly said, that Nidoqueen is probably the more generally effective option, just because Pursuit trapping has amazing utility and Crunch providing competent Dark STAB opens follower options Nidoking would never consider where Megahorn is honestly the main thing Nidoking has that might get you considering a follower like Heracross that Nidoqueen would probably ignore, but the logics you use to dismiss Nidoking's value make no sense. It doesn't matter that other leaders provide better Head Smashers, because Head Smash isn't the only thing Nidoking brings to the table -the biggest thing it brings to the table over Nidoqueen? Possibly, sure. But since Follow The Leader doesn't involve splicing two leader's movepools together, who cares? If I want Sheer Force Gengar on the same team as Head Smash Archeops -or Terrakion, or whoever- then Nidoking is the leader I take. The end. No "Well, take Nidoqueen instead, because it's better." No "Well, take Aggron instead."

You've also repeatedly simplified my statements and ignored that they have nuance and also you've been just plain wrong. My commentary that Poison Fang is only slightly weaker than Poison Jab on Mega Scizor was not "Poison Fang Mega Scizor is a viable and relevant threat to keep in mind." It was a secondary commentary ("If a Nido team is considering running Mega Scizor for whatever reason, Poison Fang is practically a free upgrade over Poison Jab"), with my primary point being that Poison Fang is a way to force Toxic through Magic Bounce without being forced to commit your Mega slot to one of the two Mold Breakers -which is not only relevant to stuff like Xatu teams, where everything is Magic Bounce, but is also relevant against any team that has Mega Sableye. I've got a Mothim team that carries Mega Sableye, and most teams really struggle to actually break it after a Quiver Dance or two, Nido teams included. Being able to fish for Toxic against it via Poison Fang would turn a matchup that is often a one-sided slaughter in favor of Mothim Mega Sableye into permanently ruining Mega Sableye, as it needs the several turns of build up to really do its job. Normally that's not a concern for me because most teams just can't get a Toxic on it. At best they can Burn it with Scald, which is annoying but usually manageable.

So yes, Poison Fang is a worthwhile move to keep in mind.
 
Now, Kyurem-Black can of course go mixed or smack Skarmory with Fire Punch, but it says something that I'm having to look at Kyurem-Black to give Nidoqueen a comparable option to Nidoking's Head Smash Archeops, and frankly I'm surprised Kyurem-Black hasn't been suspected at any point. I'm not willing to assume it will remain in the tier indefinitely.
2nd This!!

Although I think people have adapted to it in a sense. It's easily the best Follower in this metagame. I stated it a while ago that it should be something to look at because it can now bypass it's movepool from OU and gain a massive boost from nearly any leader.


On a different note Auroras is KILLER!! I want to say A rank but haven't been using it long enough to make that judgement. Possibly B.


Auroras
Abilities: Refrigerate, Snow Warning
Recovery: None
Boosting: Calm Mind, Rock Polish
Priority: none
Hazards: Stealth Rock
Hazard Removal: None
Overall Attack Diversity: Good
Thoughts: Hit hard with Refrigerate both physical(Return) and Special (Hyper Voice) Great for hyper offensive teams. Makes Kyurem-B a monster. Great coverage on both special and Physical. Ground and Electric base moves you can pair it with better coverage than any ice type.

Examples
Kyurem-Black @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Refrigerate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Return
- Earthquake
- Facade
- Outrage

HELLO!!?!!?

Weavile @ Choice Band
Ability: Refrigerate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Return
- Earthquake
- Facade
- Stone Edge
HELLO!!!?! NURSE!!!

Pidgeot @ Pidgeotite
Ability: Refrigerate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hyper Voice
- Thunder
- Blizzard
- Protect/Encore

Glaceon @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Snow Warning
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Blizzard
- Freeze-Dry
- Earth Power
- Frost Breath/Thunder Wave

Mamoswine @ Life Orb
Ability: Refrigerate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Return
- Earthquake
- Stealth Rock
- Encore/Facade

Excadrill @ Life Orb
Ability: Refrigerate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Iron Head
- Return
- Rock Polish


[hide/]


I've started maining this style and I'll post replay in a little bit
 
Poison Fang is a 50% chance of Toxic. That's not small. You might be thinking of its pre-Gen VI behavior, where it was 30%.

The fact that no one runs Toxic on Scizor in OU is a specious comparison I can't begin to figure out a good answer to because it's obviously nonsense. Follow The Leader involves non-standard builds, some of which are less-than-optimal compared to what you'd like to do but that are the best you can get for that leader.
50% is still low. When something is just as likely to not happen as it is to happen, it's low. Unless you can get decent consistency, it's low. And I still feel that using your Mega on a Pokemon which has little synergy just for a 50% chance of Toxic from a move with bad coverage, especially on a Steel type, is so niche that it's not viable.

You'll note that I pointed out a bigger problem for Mega Scizor is the lack of recovery on the Nidos. I'm agreeing that Mega Scizor is probably not optimal on the Nidos.
Okay, I misunderstood. Calm down

You're going to have to walk me through how a lack of a Speed boost in any way matters to the discussion of Thrash vs Head Smash, because the point is baffling to me.
I'm honestly confused. When were we talking about Thrash vs Head Smash?

This is, again, a specious comparison and ignoring that I laid out exactly when Thrash is the superior choice -when you're cleaning. Mega Salamence runs Double Edge because it's expectation is that it will -ate, Earthquake, or Fire Blast as appropriate to potentially crush an underprepared team. Thrash is the better choice if your plan is to move aside the Rock, Steel, and Electric walls and then bring out your -ate abuser to clean up.
We're not talking just about removing the Rock/Steel/Electric, we're talking about removing anything faster as well. Because unless it's stall, I'm betting most team will have something that can come in and hit Mega Pinsir for SE damage. The Pokemon is not fast enough to use Thrash without a Dragon Dance or a similar boosting move in. There may be situations where it can be useful (which I am sorry I mistook you, I was confused by your phrasing and thought you were pushing these as strong selling points over other options), but as a whole Double Edge fits Mega Pinsir and Altaria more because of their lower speed. If they could DDance or has something above 120 speed or so, Thrash would be much more viable.

Personal experience disagrees.

More importantly: it's irrelevant to the point. Follow The Leader involves making choices that are, from an OU perspective, sub-optimal because they're the best choice you can make with your Leader, who is worth using because of their strengths in other realms. If Head Smash or Thrash is a poor-but-functional way to perform certain forms of hole-punching and the like, then they're still worth keeping in mind as a positive for existing on the Leader.
And I misunderstood as you saying "This option exists for consideration" vs "This option should be strongly considered"

No, the issue is that you're using backwards logic. The fact that a follower would prefer a different leader does not mean you should not use that follower with that leader. The fact that some other leader gives that follower better results in doing the same core idea does not mean you should not run that follower with that leader. What matters is what the overall performance of a team is/can be, given the leader's options.

Nidoking does things Nidoqueen just plain cannot imitate, and they're not irrelevant things. Arguments like "If you want a Head Smasher, go to Aggron or something" ignore that Aggron doesn't provide Sheer Force, doesn't provide Toxic Spikes, lacks Shadow Ball (eg for Gengar), lacks Sucker Punch, etc etc.

I agree, as I've explicitly said, that Nidoqueen is probably the more generally effective option, just because Pursuit trapping has amazing utility and Crunch providing competent Dark STAB opens follower options Nidoking would never consider where Megahorn is honestly the main thing Nidoking has that might get you considering a follower like Heracross that Nidoqueen would probably ignore, but the logics you use to dismiss Nidoking's value make no sense. It doesn't matter that other leaders provide better Head Smashers, because Head Smash isn't the only thing Nidoking brings to the table -the biggest thing it brings to the table over Nidoqueen? Possibly, sure. But since Follow The Leader doesn't involve splicing two leader's movepools together, who cares? If I want Sheer Force Gengar on the same team as Head Smash Archeops -or Terrakion, or whoever- then Nidoking is the leader I take. The end. No "Well, take Nidoqueen instead, because it's better." No "Well, take Aggron instead."

You've also repeatedly simplified my statements and ignored that they have nuance and also you've been just plain wrong. My commentary that Poison Fang is only slightly weaker than Poison Jab on Mega Scizor was not "Poison Fang Mega Scizor is a viable and relevant threat to keep in mind." It was a secondary commentary ("If a Nido team is considering running Mega Scizor for whatever reason, Poison Fang is practically a free upgrade over Poison Jab"), with my primary point being that Poison Fang is a way to force Toxic through Magic Bounce without being forced to commit your Mega slot to one of the two Mold Breakers -which is not only relevant to stuff like Xatu teams, where everything is Magic Bounce, but is also relevant against any team that has Mega Sableye. I've got a Mothim team that carries Mega Sableye, and most teams really struggle to actually break it after a Quiver Dance or two, Nido teams included. Being able to fish for Toxic against it via Poison Fang would turn a matchup that is often a one-sided slaughter in favor of Mothim Mega Sableye into permanently ruining Mega Sableye, as it needs the several turns of build up to really do its job. Normally that's not a concern for me because most teams just can't get a Toxic on it. At best they can Burn it with Scald, which is annoying but usually manageable.

So yes, Poison Fang is a worthwhile move to keep in mind.
"Worthwhile" is debateable when it's at 50% odds on something with no reliable recovery. If we were talking 70% or Nido got Slack Off, then I would be agreeing with you. But it still feels like a waste of a Mega slot to use that in Scizor. Maybe a bulky Poison Point/Rivalry Pokemon with Leftovers could make it work though. Nidoqueen might actually be a pretty good option with its Ground type coverage hitting Steels and Poisons. But on Scizor? I just don't see it. Poison Jab gets zero synergy with its STABS, its special bulk is good only if it has recovery. That's where I got lost with your post. The idea it HAS to be Scizor, because I still stand by that's a waste of a Mega slot.

And I'm not using backwards logic over a misunderstanding. I thought you were saying "These are options as strong as the best ones" rather than "These options exist if your team needs it more than the other options because these situations are more threatening," based on your wording. Because the way you worded it, you ignored a lot of drawbacks to show what something could do, whether it was effective. If you want SF Gengar and HS Archeops, what's stopping you? I was just making the argument, "Is this really a better idea/worth sacrificing over the specialists who can really let you shine?" Because you can't run Toxic Spikes with an Aggron or Tyrantrum, yes. But whether things like Crunch and Pursuit or recoil free HS for some other SF users is worth sacrificing is what I was getting at. I concede it could possibly be, but do not think it will happen often. You were coming from the angle that it was possible, I was coming from the angle it was not likely, and we misunderstood each other. Because yes, FtL is a metagame where you need to make compromises. But I misunderstood you as making a different argument than you did.

It's not backwards logic, it's being on different pages and complaining the plot makes no sense. When I said, "These options exist so consider them," I could have worded it better Just calm down so we can have a more civil discussion about this, because I don't appreciate the tone you're taking with me. I admit mine wasn't perfect either, but I hardly think others appreciate the way this is going and feel you might be getting a bit too aggressive.

As a sidenote your Mega Sabeleye idea gave me a great idea for my own take on him with an Audino leader. Gonna test that out today, so thanks for the inspiration.
 
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I'm not sure if it deserves a spot on the viability, but I have had moderate success with a Feraligatr based team, primarily utilising a bunch of DD and Sheer Force. While I have been told that it's just a "shitty Dragonite", it does have a reasonable niche in Sheer Force, lending itself to stuff like SF Specs Keldeo with Focus Blast, which can do over 70% to Chansey and kill everything else straight up. Gatr can also give DD, leading to SF DD KyuB with Ice Punch. In short, while Feraligatr is normally a shitty Dragonite, it is worth a try for s&g as well as a few small niches, although it's held back by an appalling move pool.
 

AquaticPanic

Intentional Femboy Penguin
is a Community Leaderis a Community Contributor
Community Leader
Gimmics gonna gimmic

Gengar as a lead let me do this:

pidgeot.gif

@ Pidgeotite
Ability: Levitate (Lol)
- Hypnosis
- Mean Look
- Nightmare
- Dream Eater

If you have luck on letting the oponent stay asleep for 4 turns this can just destroy everything
 
So I only just got into FtL and unfortunately the metagame is just about dead, but I saw there were no actual Dragonite sample teams, so I thought I'd toss my garbage team into the ring.

Dragonite @ Lum Berry
Ability: Multiscale
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Outrage
- Earthquake
- Extreme Speed

Pidgeot @ Pidgeotite
Ability: Multiscale
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hurricane
- Fire Blast
- Blizzard
- Thunder

Garchomp @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Multiscale
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Outrage
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Dragon Claw

Ursaring @ Choice Band
Ability: Multiscale
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Extreme Speed
- Earthquake
- Superpower
- Fire Punch

Kyurem-Black @ Leftovers
Ability: Multiscale
EVs: 56 HP / 200 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Substitute
- Roost
- Ice Punch
- Earthquake

Ferrothorn @ Leftovers
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Defog
- Roost
- Iron Tail
- Heal Bell

Dragonite is bog-standard DD, Pidgeot abuses the hell out of the immense coverage Dragonite provides (could probably make room for Focus Blast for Heatran, but most of them drop Flash Fire anyway), Scarfchomp is self-explanatory with the ability to come in on way more moves due to Multiscale, Ursaring is a top-notch revenge killer with STAB CB Extreme Speed.

The last two were basically tossed on there haphazardly. I've been trying SubRoost Kyurem-N in UU lately and liking it, but while it hits harder, losing Pressure to actually stall stuff kinda sucks, and a lot of shit is breaking my Subs anyway. Ferrothorn was so that my Fairy weakness isn't QUITE so raging, but it hasn't done much more than just die lately. Sucks the metagame is dead this late in the month (and that it's gonna get replaced by the garbage that is MnM soon) so I can't refine the team some more.
 

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