Metagame Fortemons

:iron-treads: :torkoal: :archaludon: :cobalion: Body Press mons essentially render most defensive play worthless thanks to their ability to run mixed movesets while running extremely powerful moves like Draco Meteor and Overheat without any downsides. Offensive potential aside, they're also just genuinely good Pokemon, which ends up making it so one of them is on every team. I think Body Press is the biggest reason for the lack of any attempts at anything fatter than balance offense in the current meta, and axing it would make building way less monotonous.
Thirding this, abusers like Arch feel like annihilape in that unless you threaten an ohko, you only make it even harder to wall, taking one or more mons with it, and with arch's amazing physical bulk, only special attackers can feasibly do this, which can be covered for by teammates.
I've been running bpress forte Coballion with aura sphere to try and get around the Draco + iron head combo, but it's shaky since tbolt is a 2hko with hazards and you don't wanna switch into EQ. Plus, I'm using the same forte that is so problematic in the first place, which doesn't feel like a great sign. It feels like there aren't any consistent walls to such a powerful mixed attacker, and the only option is to out-offense it.
Iron treads is similar, but at least takes a few turns to get going between rapid spin and iron defense, but then becomes just as unwallable, even more so because it's hard to outspeed a + 1 treads with scarf being practically non-existent.
There are also a bunch of lesser bpress abusers like Torkoal, Goodra-H, and Coballion that would quickly rise up if the above two were banned, and so it feels like the best option is just to restrict the move as a whole.
 
And why U-turn is allowed while volt switch and flip are restricted; Are we going to have the hyper beam, hydrocannon, draco meteor, etc. auto switches?
To avoid what you just said. If there's only one legal and you can only run one of it, then it's just a U-Turn problem. If you have multiple, then you get VoltTurn Mayhem in Fortemons.

body press is a problem
I'm gonna address once on the forums since I've spent the past 2 days doing so on PS, but we're NOT BANNING Body Press for the foreseeable future. Most of the complaints I've heard amount to Archuladon or Iron Treads being broken, and those two being the focal point for a Body Press ban when the obvious solution would be to ban the two outliers. We're not gonna axe an entire move over two mons. Torkoal is another abuser, but it's niche enough to where it's not broken since it almost requires Trick Room to compensate for its low Speed. Cobalion feels really good right now since it's the fastest Body Press user, which gives it a good MU to kill other BPress mons. Outside of that, I haven't seen it to be all that problematic. Again it's mostly just Archuladon and Iron Treads. Goodra-H is diet Archuladon with worse abilities and far slower without the utility that Iron Treads provides. As of right now it is also fine.

Now can things change? Sure. But like I said though, we're not going to preemptively ban a whole move over 2 mons. If we ban Iron Treads and Archuladon, and more problematic users pop up, we'd simply ban those as well. If enough users come out to be problematic? Then we'll hit Body Press and unban the abusers. That's going to be the approach we're taking, so I have nothing else to say besides wait for us to potentially vote on certain abusers, try t build around them, or stop playing until they're banned.

We just banned Weather Ball immediately instead of widdling down on its abusers. Why? Because there were two many of them and it made more sense to ban the move than go after 8 mons. I've not seen strong arguments for anything but Archuladon and Iron Treads. Until more problematic users arise, we will pluck away the broken abusers because doing otherwise doesn't make sense.

I think Body Press is the biggest reason for the lack of any attempts at anything fatter than balance offense in the current meta, and axing it would make building way less monotonous.
This is an OM with a gimmick centered around making offensive moves better by giving them more effects and the like. That's par for the course. Only attacking moves are upgraded in this tier, so of course the tier is going to be centered around offense teams. That's kinda the point. You don't see Stall in other OMs like Stabmons, Shared Power, or any other OM that tends to juice up attackers for a reason. There is a consistent trend here if an OM's gimmick allows you to boost mons enough offensively, the meta is gonna lean offensively. This is no different, and I don't see much reason to try to make Stall viable to appeal to like 3 people when the vast majority of players (including us) prefer the current pace and would rather we target problematic mons instead.
 
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I think I've abused fun box art dog long enough to yap abt it.
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1704480748681.png

(Italy is my IGN, Fibo was eaten by... italy)

It's bulky AF, the third fastest Mon in the tier, and just kind of bodies most it's checks anyway with a 0-setup 486 defense body press.



To illustrate, you can just kind of grind through a toxapex.
Can't poisoned, Ignores Atk drops, and becomes practically invincible to physical threats

+6 60 Def Zamazenta-Crowned Body Press vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Toxapex: 133-157 (43.7 - 51.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Can you switch in on Body Press Iron treads and bash it?

1704481693188.png

252 Atk Iron Treads Earthquake vs. +1 0 HP / 60 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 150-176 (46.1 - 54.1%) -- 47.3% chance to 2HKO


Yep


Did I mention Screens and iron defence? Click iron defence under screens and watch half their team die.

ok rave done



Zamazenta-Crowned @ Rusted Shield
Ability: Dauntless Shield
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 226 Atk / 60 Def / 224 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Iron Defense
- Body Press
- Behemoth Bash
- Crunch

credit @BugCatcherZiek
 
:gouging-fire:
Gouging Fire @ firespin
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Morning Sun
- Burning Bulwark
- Heat Crash
- Earthquake
this is definitely my favorite pokemon in the tier counters press and draining kiss with burning bulwark can switch into meow everytime and is just utility overall.
 
:SV/archaludon:
Archuladon is banned from Fortemons
ponchlakeKaenSoulDark KoopatrolResult:
ArchuladonBanBanBanBan

We originally wanted to hold off on this until the survey concluded, but we got a massive surge in complaints against this thing after the last ban slate. I still intended on holding off, but the recent influx of criticism only increased. After discussing it with the council and other members of the community, it would have been a foregone conclusion whether we voted on it now or days later. This thing is busted, so we're banning it.

Kris (hi boss)
 
Damn, now my Sacred Sword Gallade is looking less--no, wait, everyone ran max speed Arch who outsped Gallade by 5 points, this is great.

Gallade @ Sacred Sword
Ability: Sharpness
Tera Type: Psychic
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Close Combat
- Poison Jab
- Shadow Sneak
Free Choice Band that ignores stat boosts? Gallade's got good enough SpDef that I was able to consistently eat unboosted Dracos from BP Arch and smoke it in return with Close Combat. There's reason to run Zen Headbutt or Agility, Gallade's got some potential.
 
Azumarill needs a reban. Since Fake Out is gone, the only major priority moves left are Thunderclap, First Impression, Sucker Punch, and Upper Hand.
Thunderclap is only learned by one Pokemon, Lokix First Impression fails to 2HKO bulky Azumarills, Sucker Punch is resisted by Azumarill, and Upper Hand fails to deal any viable damage.
Dondozo is the only Unaware Pokemon that can counter Azumarill. Furthermore, since Steel does neutral damage against Azumarill, they will likely fail to stop Azumarill as well.
If you do not have a water resist faster than Azumarill (Samurott-Hisui doesn't count), then you have immediately lost against it.
 
Sadly, I'm no artist, nor do I know any Pokemon fanartists, but I did have a vague idea for a potential banner?

Hisuian Samurott using Surf the way Sukuna uses his Domain Expansion in Jujutsu Kaisen; the water's full of slashes and also spikes because he's holding Ceaseless Edge.

Dunno if this is the place to bring that up, but I thought it'd be cool mostly because I just caught up on JJK and the brainrot is real
 
Azumarill needs a reban. Since Fake Out is gone, the only major priority moves left are Thunderclap, First Impression, Sucker Punch, and Upper Hand.
Thunderclap is only learned by one Pokemon, Lokix First Impression fails to 2HKO bulky Azumarills, Sucker Punch is resisted by Azumarill, and Upper Hand fails to deal any viable damage.
Dondozo is the only Unaware Pokemon that can counter Azumarill. Furthermore, since Steel does neutral damage against Azumarill, they will likely fail to stop Azumarill as well.
If you do not have a water resist faster than Azumarill (Samurott-Hisui doesn't count), then you have immediately lost against it.
The survey will drop Monday or later in the day on Sunday. If there is enough support there, here, in the OM room, or a council member pushes for it, we’ll vote on it. This is also applicable to anything else.

Sadly, I'm no artist, nor do I know any Pokemon fanartists, but I did have a vague idea for a potential banner?

Hisuian Samurott using Surf the way Sukuna uses his Domain Expansion in Jujutsu Kaisen; the water's full of slashes and also spikes because he's holding Ceaseless Edge.

Dunno if this is the place to bring that up, but I thought it'd be cool mostly because I just caught up on JJK and the brainrot is real
Hi, thank you for your suggestion. A banner is already currently in the works as of right now.
 
Some thoughts I wanted to share:

iron-treads.gif

Iron Treads @ Rapid Spin
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant / Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Wild Charge
- Iron Head
- Protect / Ice Spinner / Stealth Rock

The face of the tier right now. Very strong moves in combination with high speed, and without heavy-duty boots every team needs a spinner. Excadrill is also a viable option with an option to set up with Swords Dance. I like to run protect to scout for Samurott-H priority or Lokix's First Impression, and ice spinner is usually inferior to one of the other moves anyway. Wild Charge is good to 2 HKO Draining Kiss Primarina or OHKO under Electric Terrain.

raging-bolt.gif

Raging Bolt @ Rising Voltage
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderclap
- Thunderbolt
- Dragon Pulse
- Calm Mind / Draco Meteor / Volt Switch

This monster is absolutely busted in combination with Pincurchin. Rising Voltage doubles the power of all moves, so you have a 182 base power priority move or a 234 base power regular move with STAB. Dragon Pulse (can be swapped out with Draco) is also very strong into most mons that resist electric.

Body Press
I don't think Body Press is that much of a problem now, Archaludon was the only problematic user of the move because of it's stats and movepool. I feel like it is in a healthy place now, and also makes usually weak mons like Forretress viable now.
 
How does Future Sight work?
-Attacks don't come out 2 turns later with Future Sight in the item slot, but Future Sight in the item slot seems to let you bypass immunity. Based on the coding, this may be intentional.
Might want to change this part, as with the current code future sight doesn't make your moves come out 2 turns later(the attacks hit same turn), but still bypasses immunities. Could potentially end up broken because of this ngl.
 
Might want to change this part, as with the current code future sight doesn't make your moves come out 2 turns later(the attacks hit same turn), but still bypasses immunities. Could potentially end up broken because of this ngl.

Is this not just restating exactly what you quoted? The only thing that Future Sight forte does is remove type based immunities from your moves
 
https://forms.gle/5pXYHm4eo6QB544B6

Hello all, the tiering survey is up and will run for 2-3 days. Please take the time to carefully respond to this, as you may play a role in determining what our next tiering actions are. It is quite extensive, but I made sure to include everything that I've heard from members of the community.
 
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9fortemons-2030106424
Can somebody explain why iron crown couldn’t move here?
Were you running Psychic Noise? You got hit by Throat Chop so all your sound based moves get blocked, that would apply to all moves if you had Psychic Noise equipped.
Also why is Riolu allowed on ladder? Did everyone just forget about prankster copycat?
That was a bug that got fixed, circle throw cant be called by copycat.
 
Also why is Riolu allowed on ladder? Did everyone just forget about prankster copycat?
Were you running Psychic Noise? You got hit by Throat Chop so all your sound based moves get blocked, that would apply to all moves if you had Psychic Noise equipped.

That was a bug that got fixed, circle throw cant be called by copycat.
what riolu does is run circle throw as it's item and then it gets to use copycat as a status move to keep the prankster priority, and copy whatever the last attack used was with the circle throw effect, i saw somebody using it with an alomomola flip turn to fish for scald burns, into riolu to circle throw you and flip turn (which is super stupid bc they get to see what got dragged out before switching)
 
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