SM UU Full Stall Post Buzzwole Ban Meta, Peaked 1 pokemonisfun

pokemonisfun

Formerly pokeisfun
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Hello! This RMT is a full stall team made technically before the Buzzwole ban but likely only benefits from the ban so is obviously still fir for the new metagame. I would appreciate it if I could have your help in:
  • Rating the team 1-10, with 1 being worst and 10 being best so I can get a general idea of viability
  • Testing the team to see if there are weaknesses I am not aware of
  • Making suggestions for the weaknesses I will mention later
Thank you. I appreciate any feedback as, like always, this is a work in progress.

http://pokepast.es/57bf07539fd1bc3b
  • Krookodile - adds some necessary speed and traps some stall breakers a la Dugtrio in OU, just less reliably. Intimidate helps the whole team out
  • Blissey - special wall and provides Wish support to a lot of the team like Steelix and Tentacruel. It also absorbs status to a decent extent because Natural Cure
  • Steelix - my main Volt Switch immunity and Trick immunity. It gives Stealth Rocks and just has the typing to counter threats like Latias and is a good physical wall in general
  • Togekiss - provides cleric and hazard control support, also counters a few specific Pokemon like Conkeldurr
  • Tentacruel - provides more hazard control support and Toxic Spikes, also counters a few specific Pokemon like Chandelure
  • Quagsire - the main physical wall that stops a lot of set up sweepers and provides a few useful resistances, namely to physical Fire moves


In this analysis, I will very briefly go over what a stall team is, note the differences between my team and a standard stall team and then mention how I deal with current metagame trends.

Stall teams usually:
  • Have counters to 95% or more of the metagame, relying on defensively countering Pokemon instead of sweeping and attacking
  • In order to achieve this goal, stall teams provide utility moves like Heal Bell, Wish, Stealth Rock and hazard control
  • Additionally, stall teams provide utility slots like Volt Switch immunity, bulky water, grounded Poisons and general wall
My stall team follows the general rules of stall because it still aims to counter the vast majority of the metagame through defensive measures. There are some quirks however including:
  • Krookodile, which is not a wall and therefore not totally expected on a stall team, it helps trap and revenge problematic stall breakers like CM Chandelure, Tail Glow Xurkitree and NP Azelf. It also provides a nice secondary avenue to victory instead of just stalling, there is a real potential to get a sweep if my opponent is weakened enough. Lastly, Intimidate helps beat some physical threats and bolsters my whole team's physical bulk.
  • More than 95% of the metagame is countered, frankly 95% is a pretty arbitrary and random number but with Krookodile, I have answers to almost 100% of the metagame with some exceptions I will talk about below
  • Extra utility moves, while the utility moves I mentioned earlier are close to mandatory, I am able to fit quite a lot of extra goodies on this team. This includes several Toxic Pokemon which helps against opposing stall, Haze and Roar which helps against set up Pokemon, and even a couple of Scald users which just gives me a higher probability to win if I can find time to spam Scald.
  • Extra utility slots, a total of 3 Ground types without being majorly weak to Grass/Water/Ice still is really nice to stop Volt Switch, which traditionally likes to feed on the passive nature of stall
  • Strong hazard control, I have Defog, Rapid Spin AND a grounded Poison mon, this means I have a better match up against Spikes stacking offense than usual which again traditionally likes to feed on the passive nature of stall
What are some current metagame trends and how am I dealing with them?
  • Conkeldurr I am expecting to jump even more in usage with the bane of Buzzwole, defensive Togekiss combined with Liquid Ooze is some of the best defensive counterplay against it
  • Xurkitree dropped recently but Steelix + Blissey + Krookodile means, for a defensive team I have pretty much the best measures possible against it
  • Jellicent despite being NU is really trending, not just because of Buzzwole but because of Spikes, and still cannot block Defog and has some issues with Krookodile and Blissey combination. Also it really doesn't like Tentacruel as when it switches in to block Rapid Spin I can set up Toxic Spikes
  • Unburden Hawlucha is trending but not a real threat to this team for pretty obvious reasons
  • Weavile was just freed but it has severe issues with Quagsire and Steelix


What are some weaknesses I need help with?
  • Ground types that beat Togekiss are a big problem, namely Mamoswine and Superpower Nidoking but also Mega Swampert to an extent. Quagsire can just barely avoid the 2HKO by Mamoswine but is really not reliable as its prone to getting chipped and can get flinched
  • Haxorus is a well known stallbreaker and causes big trouble for this team
  • Crawdaunt is in a similar boat
  • Togekiss is somewhat problematic if it runs Heal Bell and Nasty Plot as it might beat Steelix, but the fight would still be in my favor.
  • Mega Pidgeot with Work Up Refresh poses the same issue
 

Metal Sonic

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Hi pif! Your team is amazing!

I've noted that one weakness of your team is Mega Swampert. Its Earthquakes hit Quagsire very hard (very clean 3HKO, 2HKO after prior damage) and can wreck the rest of your mons. fat Togekiss can alleviate it to some extent though, with glorious Air Slash flinch spam, unless the MegaPert runs speed, but it is weak to SR (that Mega Pert) can set up. In practice, it would be vital to set up a Toxic or poison on Mega Swampert; Quagsire needs some breathing room to do so, otherwise MegaPert can slowly but surely break down the team.

Unfortunately, I have no good suggestions on how to fix this, as of yet, as your team is really that awesome!

Good luck in Grand Slam!

PS: I have noted another potential annoyance: Facade Guts Conkeldurr, who will require MUST engage some prediction skills for double switching into Steelix then Togekiss. It can be tragic if you mispredict; however I'm not a very experienced user of stall and I don't know if this is a common issue.
 
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Hi pif,

This team looks pretty well-situated in the meta, and is proven to be successful on ladder. There are a couple weaknesses I see, however, at least on paper. I will list my criticisms of the team first and conclude my rate with my suggestions on how to fix these issues.


1. Your stall versus stall matchup seems unfavorable for a number of reasons. The primary reason in my mind is that you lack both Regenerator and Knock Off (outside of the unreliable Krook), which mons like Mandibuzz, Alomomola, and Tangela bring to the table. Over a long game, I think mons like these will simply outlast your 5-mon defensive core.

Additionally, Roar users like enemy Steelix, Suicune, and potentially dtail Kyurem are able to wear down Blissey and the other mons on your team that rely on Wish support for recovery. This is exacerbated by the fact that your Blissey set lacks one-turn recovery in Softboiled. I may be getting ahead of myself here, but I think 16 Wish PP of recovery spread over Blissey, Steelix, and Tentacruel means that compared to other stall teams your team will be worn down far more quickly.

To make matters worse, your team lacks offensive counterplay against the two Pressure users listed above and I believe you must rely on PP stalling them to have a shot at taking them down. Of course, PP stalling a Pressure mon is a war of attrition that is generally speaking not in your favor, especially considering the lack of Regenerator users.


2. The team is weak to almost all common stallbreakers. Yes, I know that this is an unfair accusation to levy against a stall team, since by definition stall teams are weak to stallbreakers, so let me try to justify this statement:

First off, since your team commits to a fast revenge killer, you are left with 5 slots instead of 6 to defensively check the whole metagame, which necessarily means you will be spread a bit thin. So compared to some other stall teams, it is harder for this team to take hits from the extreme physical end of the spectrum. Essentially anything that can beat Quagsire is a serious threat to the team, which include things like Adamant Megapert, Adamant (or Freeze Dry) Mamo, and Facade Conkeldurr (as Metal Sonic noted) and even niche threats like EQ Lucario, Bloom Doom Entei, and Band Terrakion.

Obviously for any stall team you can concoct an offensive threat that cannot be adequately checked. The point of listing the above mons is that they are all mons that Krook does not help at all with, and which all put in work against your team because you chose to use Quagsire over Alomomola.

Additionally, almost every standard problematic CM/sub CM user puts in work against this team. Suicune instantly wins if Tentacruel is gone, and Chandelure and Reuniclus, while trapped by Krookodile, are also problematic late-game. This is due mostly to the fact that many of the standard stall ways of dealing with these threats, such as Taunt and other ways to beat lastmon Magic Guard, are hard to fit onto your team.


3. Overpreparation for common threats makes the team very strong on ladder but less well-suited for a tournament setting. Part of the problem with overpreparing is that it leads to redundancy. Yes, threats like Xurkitree and Latias are well-met by scarf Krookodile -- but are these really things that the other 5 mons struggle with so much as to justify a place for Krook on the team? Three ground types prevent volt switch, but obviously stacking ground type gives you somewhat of a weakness to water and ice type attacks. In my opinion, including a mon like Scarf Krookodile on stall, which is clearly meant as a counter to speed-boosting Z-Xurkitree sets, is perhaps a good solution to a problem posed by ladder, but doesn't ultimately help your team versus other dangerous threats to stall that are less commonly used on ladder but could certainly be assayed in a tournament setting.

Here is where the rate gets somewhat subjective: I believe that the fact that your movesets and spreads are so standard gives an advantage to an opponent looking to break your stall. One look at your team essentially reveals what all of your mons will be running, with perhaps the only ambiguities being whether Blissey runs Toxic or Heal Bell and other relatively unimportant moveset nuances. The major point I'm trying to emphasize is that if I am an offense player looking at your team, I know exactly which of your mons can or cannot wall my offensive threats, whereas you, the stall player looking at, say, my Infernape or Hydreigon, do not know which of your mons is able to beat mine.

The information disadvantage in the stall v. offense matchup is nothing new or exclusive to this team. But I think your reliance on very standard sets on this team and more generally across many teams that you use lends a certain predictability to your playstyle that may be capitalized upon by a capable opponent. And while I'm not advocating that you necessarily use gimmicks, I will point out that it doesn't have to completely be like this; I know that players like sparrow and despize run a number of unexpected sets on their successful stall and semistall teams.

As perhaps a bit of an aside, you also mentioned in UU chat that the way to win in tournament with stall is to have a dozen teams with no overlapping weaknesses (paraphrased). And while this is solid advice, I would also point out that having a dozen stall teams that are all overprepared for a given threat to stall or common mon in the UU metagame means that, for example, knowing that you run Kyurem/Scarf Krook/Sheddy on every team built in Xurk meta means that if I am your opponent in a given tournament, I am never ever ever bringing Xurkitree against you. What I mean to say is, your opponent knowing that you will always hard counter the biggest threats in the metagame means that he will never bring the biggest threat in the metagame, and is thus more likely to instead bring a random threat like (say) CB Terrak which may happen to pose a big threat for you. To me at least this is more reason to not worry so much about ditching Krook and introducing a slight Xurkitree weakness if you were to use this team in a tour.


Onto my suggestions for the team:

1. Run Weavile over Krookodile! I have been kind of hinting at this throughout my criticism section. Even though this is not a hard counter to Xurkitree, I believe it is overall a superior mon to Krookodile in the current metagame, and will be overall far more worth the investment in an offensive mon on your stall team. The Band set can OHKO Xurkitree with Icicle Crash if you are worried about that. Ice coverage helps a lot with your Pidgeot weakness; you can double to Weavile on a predicted Work Up or Refresh. Ice Shard gives your team some priority as well, which is usually not found on stall. Unlike Krookodile, which essentially everyone knows to be Scarf in gen 7, Weavile is able to run many sets (Band, LO, Icium, Low Kick, SD, Sash), which adds some much-needed unpredictability to your team. And your team has two reliable hazard removers, which makes running Weavile as drawback-free as it is ever going to be.

2. Run Softboiled over Protect on Blissey. This is an easy enough fix to help in the stall matchup and versus Roar users and I don't think it will really affect most other matchups.

3. Perhaps you will hate this recommendation, but I believe that Counter over Toxic on Quagsire gives you a lot of insurance against hard-hitting physical mons (as well as boosts the unpredictability factor that I consider so important). This allows you to one-shot enemy MPert, Crawdaunt, Haxorus, non-FD Mamo, etc etc, albeit only semi-reliably. I encourage you to at least test this move out. If you feel like removing Toxic on Quagsire makes your density of status users too low, consider putting Toxic on Tentacruel over Toxic Spikes, which helps versus things like Jellicent anyways.

4. Unfortunately I cannot really think of a way to include Taunt or Knock Off on your team, but in the event that Conkeldurr is banned (potentially not unlikely in the wake of Buzzwole's banning?), I would recommend Mandibuzz over Togekiss. (in the meantime, hint hint, sash Counter Weavile beats Conkeldurr!)


I would rate this team a 10/10 for ladder usability, 6/10 for tournament usability, and a 9/10 for reliability (no great reliance on hax for anything other than Toxic hitting and not getting flinched with Quag in a couple key matchups), so overall I would give this team an 8.5/10. I hope you find this rate useful, and good luck in Grand Slam!
 

pokemonisfun

Formerly pokeisfun
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
Metal Sonic - I already mentioned those threats but thank you for reconfirming and emphasizing them :heart: Honestly though defensive Togekiss is a pretty useful Conkeldurr counter

Clefable - Thank you for the very in depth thoughts. I'll go through everything you mentioned one by one.

Regarding the stall matchup:
  • I think you're underestimating my stall match up - Pursuit Krookodile let's me trap Tentacruel fairly easily and my own Toxic Spikes gives me a leg up over many stall teams.
  • Additionally, I have double hazard control.
  • Lastly, Knock Off Krookodile is still a good source of item removal because it can be easily healed by Wish against passive Pokémon.
  • http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-589398069 I win the stall war eventually mainly because of the three points I mention - by the time the replay dies (sadly) my advantage is quite clear
Regarding weakness to stall breakers:
  • My major problem is that the Pokémon you listed like Swampert and Mamoswine aren't even stall breakers, they are just very standard offensive Pokémon that team builders pick without stall in mind
  • So I think it's perfectly fair to point out the weakness again, I think Counter Quagsire will be a very interesting solution
  • But yeah not a complete solution, I'm still weak to these threats you pointed out
Regarding overprepartion for common threats (and underprepartion for uncommon threats?):

  • I hardly think I'm overprepared for Latias or Xurkitree - my only CM Latias counter is Steelix since Krookodile cannot OHKO and risks getting OHKOd itself while Blissey gets 2HKO by Psyshock with just a little prior. And TG Xurkitree can OHKO even Steelix after a boost so I really do need more insurance than just Steelix (hence Krookodile)
  • Can you explain Weavile more? Your criticism with Krookodile was that it stacked weaknesses and was redundant, both of which are somewhat true. But Weavile doesn't have intimidate so contributes even less defensively while it also is redundant as you just mentioned it checks Latias, Xurkitree and Pidgeot (which Stone Edge Krookodile does to an extent). It also seems like it would make me weaker to some threats you mentioned like Lucario and Terrakion which are dealt with better by Krookodile

Regarding an information disadvantage:
  • Point taken but I think you're overestimating the value of surprise
  • Just because you know something walls you doesn't mean you can stop it from walling a certain set
  • Also the fact that I'm making this a public RMT implies I don't mind people knowing this team
  • Having surprises is a nice bonus, that's all.
Regarding having multiple stall teams:
  • You may have misinterpreted me. I said that was key to laddering, having multiple teams without overlapping weaknesses
  • Stall teams should always be able to counter the biggest threats in the metagame; whether you consider Xurkitree part of that is up to you but I think it's unwise to say "I don't need a solid answer to this A/S ranked threat because I have a reputation of dealing with that threat well"
Regarding the recommendations:
  • I'll try all of them
  • I'm still shaky on Weavile for the reasons I mentioned previously
  • I'm not so sure they actually help with the insights you have given though (the weakness to Band Terrakion and Lucario)
Thank you again.
 

Metal Sonic

Resurgence
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An amazingly in-depth response from Clefable. Amazingly, his account is older than both of ours; I would love to see him contribute more of such high quality material to Smogon.

Regarding Togekiss countering Conkeldurr, it does not apply to Facade Conkeldurr, it hits like a bitch:

252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Togekiss: 198-233 (52.9 - 62.2%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Facade (140 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 212-250 (53.9 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Togekiss has no chance of directly switching in especially if rocks is up, so this common threat must be emphasized again and played carefully against.
--
As much as I enjoyed reading Clefable's post, I disagree with a few of the points that he had made:

1) Stall does not require "unpredictability" --> My belief, is that stall as a playstyle in general intends to be risk-free hard walling opponents. Even if the opponent knows what he's up against, it doesn't help an opponent for the impending threat ahead. Surprise factor is generally more necessary on offensive teams to snipe down an opponent's critical Pokemon, rather than on a slow and steady team.

2) Krookodile isn't (entirely) useless; it's an added bonus to Knock Off opponent's Leftovers/held items/Eviolite, while being fat thanks to Intimidate.

3) Softboiled is worth a try, I guess. But Protect is quite useful on Blissey to scout unpredictable moves and sets on opponents, as well as highly complement the Toxic (Spikes) stalling that is highly vital to the team. Blissey's lower Speed also makes it slightly more risky to Softboiled directly after a mis-Wish, in certain situations.

4) I cannot agree with the suggestion to put Toxic over Toxic Spikes on Tentacruel at all. Toxic Spikes, in my opinion, is one of the highlights of the team; it serves as a very extraordinarily potent wincondition: Kill the enemy's Defogger/Spinner/TSpikes absorber, remove or PP stall the opponent's cleric, and successfully set up TSpikes -> Will result in the team's win 9 times out of 10. No matter what, Toxic Spikes is tech, and it must stay.
--
Counter on Quagsire is a pretty good suggestion, though. Considering how solid your team is, the fact that Clefable was able to suggest something this insightful (I couldn't) makes it very valuable. It's certainly worth a try and multiple experiments to see how this fares in practice. Toxic has the advantage of crippling opponents and deterring switch-ins, but Counter appears to be an interesting tech that has the chance to delete the opponent's most threatening physical wallbreaker if played right. Considering that this is (now) a public RMT though, I'm not sure if it would have the same surprise factor level.

I also suppose that the Weavile suggestion is worth a try. I'm not too confident about this suggestion either, as it breaks the flow of the team, and is reliant on double switches to get into the game safely, but Clefable's suggestions have merit and I suppose that this warrants a few tests as well.

It's really difficult to suggest changes to your team since it's already pretty f*cking good. If I were to hazard a guess, indeed, Clefable is right that Krookodile is the most changeable member of your team. Whether the answer is Weavile or not, we don't know. Seriously, finding the answer to this is like solving an advanced math equation, so yeah it is pretty tough.

Good luck, pif!
 

Funbot28

Banned deucer.
I just have a quick question (srry is this had already been mentioned), why use Krokodile over something like CB Weavile? I have been using that as my offensive Trapper on my stalls and although it's not as fast as Scarf Krook, the priority in ice Shard can still help check certain breakers such as Haxorus, Z-Hypno Xurkitree and also helps deal with Nasty Plot Togekiss much better. Just would like some clarification.

Intimidate support is nice, but Idk if that's enough to trade the wallbreaking support that Weavile can bring imo.

Edit: Saw ur response to Clef's post, how does Krook check Luc and Terrakion better? Even factoring in the -1 Attack is still hates switching in to both of those threats.
 
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pokemonisfun

Formerly pokeisfun
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I just have a quick question (srry is this had already been mentioned), why use Krokodile over something like CB Weavile? I have been using that as my offensive Trapper on my stalls and although it's not as fast as Scarf Krook, the priority in ice Shard can still help check certain breakers such as Haxorus, Z-Hypno Xurkitree and also helps deal with Nasty Plot Togekiss much better. Just would like some clarification.

Intimidate support is nice, but Idk if that's enough to trade the wallbreaking support that Weavile can bring imo.

Edit: Saw ur response to Clef's post, how does Krook check Luc and Terrakion better? Even factoring in the -1 Attack is still hates switching in to both of those threats.
Thanks for your interest.

It ohkos both of them with EQ and it's not like Weavile switches into them while Krook can come in on resisted Stone Edge at least or Luke's SD. Also Lucario can KO Weavile with physical or special priority while Krookodile only dies to vacuum wave.

Both work though ultimately for reasons you and Clefable mentioned.
 

Metal Sonic

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Hey,

Just tried using the team again to get reqs on the ladder, especially capitalizing on the lack of Conkeldurr who is a major threat, and I noticed a few more threats to the team.

1) CM Psyshock Latias 2HKOs Blissey at +1 and heavily threatens the rest of the team, except for Steelix.
2) Mega Sharpedo 2HKOs every mon on the team, including the physical walls, Steelix (with Waterfall) & Quagsire (with Crunch).
3) I've met a dude who runs Toxic / Sub / Scald / CM Suicune... WTF is that mon, but the team has no counterplay, except for stalling it out with Tentacruel (Stalemate) or sacking Steelix to Roar.
4) Stallbreakers like Poison Heal Gliscor are extremely annoying and result in a stalemate.
5) Crawdaunt breaks the core too.

Will add more later
 
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