SM UU Full Stall (Post Terrakion Unban)

pokemonisfun

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This team is a full stall team made after Terrakion was unbanned on the ladder. I would like your help in:

  • Rating team 1-10 (10 being the best)
  • Fixing weaknesses that I will address below by recommending sets or Pokemon
  • Test team to see if there are more weaknesses I am /unaware/ of
Thanks for your help!

neck peck (Mandibuzz) @ Leftovers
Ability: Overcoat
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Defog
- Roost
- Knock Off
- Foul Play

muddy buddy (Quagsire) @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def
Relaxed Nature
- Recover
- Earthquake
- Scald
- Curse

fancy chansey (Blissey) @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 240 HP / 252 Def / 16 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Seismic Toss
- Stealth Rock
- Toxic
- Soft-Boiled


hoisin poison (Tentacruel) @ Leftovers
Ability: Liquid Ooze
EVs: 248 HP / 136 Def / 108 SpD / 16 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Rapid Spin
- Toxic Spikes
- Haze
- Scald


miniloaf (Tangela) @ Eviolite
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def
Relaxed Nature
- Giga Drain
- Knock Off
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Leech Seed


very fairy (Clefable) @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Wish
- Protect
- Moonblast
- Aromatherapy


Since most of you are already aware of what a stall team is - a team that counters at least 90-95% of the metagame with all 6 slots and has quality utility moves like Heal Bell, Defog and Wish - I am just going to explain the quirks of the team that differentiate it from the stall archetype. I will then address a few major weaknesses that I would like help in fixing.

Because I use 6 walls on this stall team - as opposed to 5 walls with a "safety" Pokemon (think Choice Band Dugtrio or Mega Aerodactyl on stall) I do my best to have at least one counter for every single threat in the metagame. Unaware Clefable usually runs Calm Mind but my team is rather short on space so I have to run Aromatherapy on it instead - this is okay because Haze Tetacruel and Unaware Quagsire mean threats like CM Suicune and SD Gliscor still have answers.

The team is very sturdy because I have two Unaware users, which is not uncommon for stall, and also because I have two methods of hazard control: Spin/Toxic Spikes Absorption with Tentacruel and Defog with Mandibuzz. Not only do they switch in on different hazard setters (Mandibuzz switches in on Krookodile while Tentacruel on Clefable), they allow me to choose how to get rid of hazards; Rapid Spin has more synergy with my use of Toxic Spikes. That's another advantage of this stall team, I was able to fit Toxic Spikes in addition to SR which should give me more utility in general, especially against opposing stall as it lets me stall out Defog more easily.

Tangela is uncommon in UU but its set makes its role quite clear - a physical wall that can also provide some utility with Leech Seed and Knock Off, both of which are very helpful in stalling last Pokemon threats and often seal victory in conjunction with Haze or Unaware. Notably its one of the only good SD Crawdaunt counters in the tier, even after Knock Off, and also counters the much more common Mega Sharpedo. Another role Tangela plays is that of a scouter, with Regenerator and overall good bulk, it can switch into say Scizor to see what set it runs.

Some weaknesses, in no particular order, include:

  • Keldeo - while I have three "counters", I have no reliable switch in to the common Specs Keldeo which, if predicting correctly, can O/2HKO everything
  • Mew - mainly the variants with Taunt but also NP if Clefable is weakened / they run Acid Downpour; all of them threaten the team badly
  • Gengar - Tentacruel runs Leftovers so Trick Gengar does not get an additional weapon; still its obviously a big threat since it can O/2HKO everything except Blissey, which cannot touch it
  • Lucario - because it can run either SD or NP, Lucario will always be a big threat
  • Haxorus - this should not be a surprise as Haxorus is known as a stall breaker, fortunately Mandibuzz can OHKO Haxorus but it runs the risk of being OHKOd itself by SD variants - which can also OHKO everything else on my team...
  • Trappers - Blissey as well as Tentacruel are very vulnerable to Pursuit, Dhelmise and Decidueye can also bust holes although I do have arguably the best counter to them in the tier
  • Mixed attackers - Mainly Nidoking with Superpower but mixed attackers in general (Hydreigon, Infernape, Psyshock users) mean if I predict badly I can lose an essential wall


http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-569149782 What happens when a stallbreaker Mew meets a stall team? Nothing unexpected but also highlights Gengar weakness and how the team falls apart in the face of several unprepared for threats.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-568497825 Flame Orb Conkeldurr can be a large threat

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-568524164 Again Flame Orb Conkeldurr is a threat, this also demonstrates the idea of using Wish + bulky and strong attackers to slowly overwhelm defenses


Overall the team is representative of a typical stall team - it follows all the rules and unsurprisingly has some of the weaknesses of a standard stall team. Feel free to recommend massive changes such as swapping several Pokemon, it can always be reworked to be a new team entirely.
 
What do you think of something like mantine instead of tentacruel? It helps more against infernape and keldeo and even some lucarios...Ive never really been a big fan of tenta since its hard to heal and if your opponent plays strongly you wont get to wish it back to health. btw it gets haze, just like tentacruel. It gets defog, just like tentacruel but less shitty against gengar so your hazard control becomes stronger.

Of course, you still have the weakness against clefable, but that could get around your tentacruel very easily anyway with something like tbolt or even just spamming stealth rocks since you dont have a poison move. And of course not having toxic spikes sucks, but when two of your weaknesses include nidoking and gengar, you were going to struggle to keep those up anyway, no?

8.5
 
View attachment 81526

This team is a full stall team made after Terrakion was unbanned on the ladder. I would like your help in:

  • Rating team 1-10 (10 being the best)
  • Fixing weaknesses that I will address below by recommending sets or Pokemon
  • Test team to see if there are more weaknesses I am /unaware/ of
Thanks for your help!

neck peck (Mandibuzz) @ Leftovers
Ability: Overcoat
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Defog
- Roost
- Knock Off
- Foul Play

muddy buddy (Quagsire) @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def
Relaxed Nature
- Recover
- Earthquake
- Scald
- Curse

fancy chansey (Blissey) @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 240 HP / 252 Def / 16 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Seismic Toss
- Stealth Rock
- Toxic
- Soft-Boiled


hoisin poison (Tentacruel) @ Leftovers
Ability: Liquid Ooze
EVs: 248 HP / 136 Def / 108 SpD / 16 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Rapid Spin
- Toxic Spikes
- Haze
- Scald


miniloaf (Tangela) @ Eviolite
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def
Relaxed Nature
- Giga Drain
- Knock Off
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Leech Seed


very fairy (Clefable) @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Wish
- Protect
- Moonblast
- Aromatherapy


Since most of you are already aware of what a stall team is - a team that counters at least 90-95% of the metagame with all 6 slots and has quality utility moves like Heal Bell, Defog and Wish - I am just going to explain the quirks of the team that differentiate it from the stall archetype. I will then address a few major weaknesses that I would like help in fixing.

Because I use 6 walls on this stall team - as opposed to 5 walls with a "safety" Pokemon (think Choice Band Dugtrio or Mega Aerodactyl on stall) I do my best to have at least one counter for every single threat in the metagame. Unaware Clefable usually runs Calm Mind but my team is rather short on space so I have to run Aromatherapy on it instead - this is okay because Haze Tetacruel and Unaware Quagsire mean threats like CM Suicune and SD Gliscor still have answers.

The team is very sturdy because I have two Unaware users, which is not uncommon for stall, and also because I have two methods of hazard control: Spin/Toxic Spikes Absorption with Tentacruel and Defog with Mandibuzz. Not only do they switch in on different hazard setters (Mandibuzz switches in on Krookodile while Tentacruel on Clefable), they allow me to choose how to get rid of hazards; Rapid Spin has more synergy with my use of Toxic Spikes. That's another advantage of this stall team, I was able to fit Toxic Spikes in addition to SR which should give me more utility in general, especially against opposing stall as it lets me stall out Defog more easily.

Tangela is uncommon in UU but its set makes its role quite clear - a physical wall that can also provide some utility with Leech Seed and Knock Off, both of which are very helpful in stalling last Pokemon threats and often seal victory in conjunction with Haze or Unaware. Notably its one of the only good SD Crawdaunt counters in the tier, even after Knock Off, and also counters the much more common Mega Sharpedo. Another role Tangela plays is that of a scouter, with Regenerator and overall good bulk, it can switch into say Scizor to see what set it runs.

Some weaknesses, in no particular order, include:

  • Keldeo - while I have three "counters", I have no reliable switch in to the common Specs Keldeo which, if predicting correctly, can O/2HKO everything
  • Mew - mainly the variants with Taunt but also NP if Clefable is weakened / they run Acid Downpour; all of them threaten the team badly
  • Gengar - Tentacruel runs Leftovers so Trick Gengar does not get an additional weapon; still its obviously a big threat since it can O/2HKO everything except Blissey, which cannot touch it
  • Lucario - because it can run either SD or NP, Lucario will always be a big threat
  • Haxorus - this should not be a surprise as Haxorus is known as a stall breaker, fortunately Mandibuzz can OHKO Haxorus but it runs the risk of being OHKOd itself by SD variants - which can also OHKO everything else on my team...
  • Trappers - Blissey as well as Tentacruel are very vulnerable to Pursuit, Dhelmise and Decidueye can also bust holes although I do have arguably the best counter to them in the tier
  • Mixed attackers - Mainly Nidoking with Superpower but mixed attackers in general (Hydreigon, Infernape, Psyshock users) mean if I predict badly I can lose an essential wall


http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-569149782 What happens when a stallbreaker Mew meets a stall team? Nothing unexpected but also highlights Gengar weakness and how the team falls apart in the face of several unprepared for threats.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-568497825 Flame Orb Conkeldurr can be a large threat

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-568524164 Again Flame Orb Conkeldurr is a threat, this also demonstrates the idea of using Wish + bulky and strong attackers to slowly overwhelm defenses


Overall the team is representative of a typical stall team - it follows all the rules and unsurprisingly has some of the weaknesses of a standard stall team. Feel free to recommend massive changes such as swapping several Pokemon, it can always be reworked to be a new team entirely.
I would like to try and rate this team a bit. I can see that the full stall obviously works quite well in this situation, as you got 1800+ ranking, but It's become apparent that you need a more reliable physical tank to deal with conkeldurr, as the only thing that can reliably take a hit from it is tangela (which I LOVE btw). I like using gliscor to deal with it in other tiers, but since it's UU they all run ice punch, so instead, why not try alolmomola instead of clefable/quagsire? It's a huge HP bulky pokemon that can wish pass as well as blissey, so it can relieve the pressure on that, plus it can scald, knock off, toxic, HEALING WISH, mirror coat, or even light screen. I believe that alolmomola is a much better pokemon to use because of how well it can take hits, especially those of conkeldurr:
252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 40 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 178-210 (37 - 43.6%) -- 99.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
or full HP investment:
252+ Atk Guts Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 178-210 (33.3 - 39.3%) -- 13.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
well there you have it, my suggestion is to use a full HP investment set, to help counter not just conkeldurr, but also other physical mons like gliscor, infernape, crobat, megapedo, megadactyl and scizor. Hope this helps a bit!

PS. Overall I would give the team a 7/10 for effectiveness, creativity and overall awesomeness
 

Amane Misa

ідіот
is a Tutoris a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
Moderator
Hi, pif!

As you probably know yourself, your team is one of the most effective teams in the ladder, a team every builder should take the team into account while teambuilding. Even then, unless you have a clear strategy on how to beat it (opposed to just throwing stallbreakers in your team), you are still going to struggle against it.

I get a lot of compliments for using that team, even though I haven't used this team for long at all.
☆macicrack:go fuck yourself
I me


Humor aside... looking at your threat list... lucky you - most of the threats you listed (Mew, Swords Dance Haxorus, Lucario and Superpower Nidoking and Hydreigon) aren't quite popular so I will focus more on helping with the more common threats. Also, adding to the threats list, SubCM Keldeo is another huge threat. Tentacruel can Haze it but it can't break its Substitute so eventually it's going to lose to Secret Sword. Unaware Clefable is also annoyed by Scald burns, especially if not carrying Calm Mind. This is, why, I think Calm Mind > Aromatherapy on Clefable is an option and Heal Bell > Toxic on Blissey is mandatory if you do that change. While not providing the same utility, Tentacruel has Toxic Spikes which is nice.
While it is not as threatening as Choice Specs Keldeo (thanks to Tentacruel's Toxic Spikes support), I still think it is an honorable mention one should not ignore.

On top of that, Toxic + Swords Dance Gliscor is a set I have been using on some teams (and saw people using). While not being common at all, I expect it to slowly start to get noticed, and looking at your matchup against it... eh... not the best matchup, to say the least. You can ignore it for the meanwhile, but if you want a better countermeasure against it, Waterfall > Scald on Quagsire should help it (2HKOs SpD Gliscor most of the time at +1). It should also help you against more standard Gliscor variations. Thinking about it, what does Scald do? Potentially burning Amoonguss on the switch-in, immobilizing its passive recovery? You can just Knock Off its potential Black Sludge with Mandibuzz.

Z-Thunder Latias + Calm Mind is another threat. It has the potential to beat your team, as Gigavolt Havoc into Thunder KOs Clefable. I have no ideas on how to fix the weakness now... I still think it is possible to play around it, switching in Blissey or Quagsire on the expected Gigavolt Havoc and hoping for the best.

Another minor thing... you are missing 4EVs on some of your Pokémon... even though it's quite negligible, I still think you should add those EVs because wynaut... I mean, it can't do any harm, can it? It might even save you, who knows what lady luck's plans are to the future.

This is what I got on top of my head right now. I will test this team more and do any necessary changes to this post/repost, if there would be any need for that.

In points:
  • Waterfall > Scald
  • Calm Mind > Aromatherapy
  • Heal Bell > Toxic

I am really bad at rating stuff from 1-10 and that's a thing I really hate doing, thus I won't rate it in that form. Sorry about that ^^'

Mandibuzz @ Leftovers
Ability: Overcoat
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Defog
- Roost
- Knock Off
- Foul Play

Quagsire @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Relaxed Nature
- Recover
- Earthquake
- Waterfall
- Curse

Blissey @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 240 HP / 252 Def / 16 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Seismic Toss
- Stealth Rock
- Heal Bell
- Soft-Boiled

Tentacruel @ Leftovers
Ability: Liquid Ooze
EVs: 248 HP / 136 Def / 108 SpD / 16 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Rapid Spin
- Toxic Spikes
- Haze
- Scald

Tangela @ Eviolite
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Relaxed Nature
- Giga Drain
- Knock Off
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Leech Seed

Clefable @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Wish
- Protect
- Moonblast
- Calm Mind
 
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I actually think running 4 speed on certain mons is worse because you lose the pp war first, in a vacuum, meaning you have to struggle first and die first. Mandibuzz is the perfect example. Clefable, on the other hand, would do well to have 4 speed as it has a boosting move and wants to kill the other clefable first, but even then you can run into pp wars. I don't know, it's something that's quite inconsequential; sometimes speed is essential, like for tentacruel, other times it's just slightly better to save 4 EVs for defense or something else. if this team was facing itself, I would hate to lose to a struggle war, but at the same time I dont see the endgame being mandi vs mandi...

Either way, I kinda like the CM clefable because it always helps stall to have a wincon, but not having toxic on blissey means he doesnt have toxic on anything, and that can be pretty terrible for stall, as people tend to underestimate the usefullness of toxic
 

Amane Misa

ідіот
is a Tutoris a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
Moderator
I actually think running 4 speed on certain mons is worse because you lose the pp war first, in a vacuum, meaning you have to struggle first and die first. Mandibuzz is the perfect example. Clefable, on the other hand, would do well to have 4 speed as it has a boosting move and wants to kill the other clefable first, but even then you can run into pp wars. I don't know, it's something that's quite inconsequential; sometimes speed is essential, like for tentacruel, other times it's just slightly better to save 4 EVs for defense or something else. if this team was facing itself, I would hate to lose to a struggle war, but at the same time I dont see the endgame being mandi vs mandi...

Either way, I kinda like the CM clefable because it always helps stall to have a wincon, but not having toxic on blissey means he doesnt have toxic on anything, and that can be pretty terrible for stall, as people tend to underestimate the usefullness of toxic
You have a point in the EVs thing. Investing in defense is certainly superior than investing in speed due to potential PP wars, thanks for correcting!

Even though I don't use stall a lot, in fact my most used playstyle is the opposite, HO, but I know how much Toxic is good and it is certainly a bummer to not have Toxic on Blissey. I do feel like the loss of Toxic on Blissey worths itself, as it allows Clefable to have Calm Mind...

Another thing: Life Orb Darmanitan is so scary for your team to handle. May not be common, but still.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-570009232
(replays are working again, yay)
 
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