Resource Game Issues and Feedback Thread

Mowtom

I'm so meta, even this acronym!
Can we fix Fling? The table is an image and cannot be searched for a specific item easily, it mentions lots of items that do not exist in BBP in any way and never have, and some of the tiers still have a fractional EN cost.
 
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Currently the text of switch forcing moves (Roar, Whirlwind) and self-switching moves (U-Turn, etc) seems to imply that the switch forcing moves cede second order even if they don't hit, whereas the self-switching don't unless they hit successfully.

Just wondering if this is intentional that they're different, and if they're meant to be the same which one is accurate.
 
To add on to the above, with RAW I would interpret U-Turn and Volt Switch to work differently than Baton Pass when the mon using the move gets KOed during the round in which they are ordered. U-Turn and Volt Switch both specify in the move description that if they land the ordering player moves first next round, with no exception for if the pokemon that used the move gets KOed. Baton Pass, on the other hand, has nothing in the move description about changing who orders when, so the only rule that comes into play is "If a move forces a Pokemon to switch, that Pokemon's trainer orders first next round." (from PHB). To me, this implies that if a pokemon uses Baton Pass and then is KOed during that round, Baton Pass is no longer forcing the pokemon to switch and therefore does not cede second order the way U-Turn or Volt Switch would in the same situation.

In my opinion, the best way to address this is to take what's written in the PHB (you order first if your move forces a pokemon to switch) and codify that into the self-switching/phasing moves, i.e. "If (you/your opponent) is forced to switch at the end of this round as a result of this move, you cede second order to your opponent next round." This way, people who use self-switching/phasing moves still have the drawback if the move works, but if it doesn't they're no longer punished for it.
 

LouisCyphre

heralds disaster.
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Transcribing some discussion in #bbp on the topic of making switch-forcing and self-switching moves apply a Switching status to the subject.

Here's a rough draft of such an effect:
Switching - (Move Effect)
This effect varies depending on the match's switching rules. (Switch=KO or Switch=OK).
  • Switch=KO: Instantly removes all volatile statuses on the subject that would end upon leaving the field; such as stat changes, Confusion, Taunt, and so on. (Including this effect.)
  • Switch=OK: Persists on the subject until the end of the round. At the end of the round, subjects with this effect are switched out without starting a Switch Phase. The teammate to be switched in is decided based on which battler inflicted the effect.
    • If the subject had this effect inflicted on them by another battler, the switched-in teammate is randomly selected by the ref at end of round.
    • If the subject inflicted this effect on themselves, the subject's trainer selects which teammate is switched in.
The last player to inflict this effect successfully (on any battler) in a round orders first in the following round.
Pretty dense for a move effect, but it condenses a few different types of moves while preserving their effect. The UPSIDE of implementing of this effect comes when you use it to slice down and standardize the effect text on switch-forcing moves. Consider:

Roar (Old)Roar (New)U-Turn (Old)U-Turn (New)
The user's bellows and howls inspire the foe to retreat, phazing the target. Roar's effects change depending on the match's Switch rules.
  • In Switch = OK, the target is sent back to its trainer's Poke Ball at the end of the round. The opponent's Pokemon is switched out at random from their remaining Pokémon. The trainer that orders a phazing move yields second order to their opponent in the following round.
  • In Switch = KO, the shock of the attack resets all of the opponent's stat changes and snaps it out of temporary status as well as other effects like Disable, Taunt, and Torment.
The user's bellows and howls inspire the foe to retreat, inflicting Switching on the target if the move succeeds.The user strikes the opponent before dashing off in a different direction, outpacing even trapping abilities. If the attack hits, two different effects may take depending on the enforced Switch Clause:
  • Switch = KO: The attack resets all of the Pokemon's stat changes and snaps it out of temporary status as well as other effects like Disable, Taunt, and Torment.
  • Switch = OK: The user is sent back to its trainer's Poke Ball at the end of the round. The user that is switched in to replace the user is chosen by the player from their remaining Pokemon, however the trainer that commanded U-turn must attack first. A Pokemon switched out with U-turn can switch without initiating a Switch Phase, but only Pokemon that used Teleport, U-turn, or Volt Switch can be swapped out.
The user strikes the opponent before dashing off in a different direction, outpacing even trapping abilities. If the attack hits, grants Switching (Self) to the user.

The one odd move out would be Baton Pass--the move with an entirely non-switching effect in Switch=KO. This seems easy to address as well: you just keep the split built into the move.

Baton Pass (Old)Baton Pass (New)
This move has multiple functions.
The user transfers their status changes to an ally. Baton Pass can only target members of the user's team. Baton Pass transfers stage Boosts, Aqua Ring, trapping effects, Ghost-type Curse, Embargo, critical hit rate boosts, Gastro Acid, Ingrain, Leech Seed, Lock-On and Mind Reader, Magnet Rise, Perish Song's counter, Power Trick status, and Substitute decoys.
  • Baton Pass (Switch): The user will switch out at the end of the round, transferring their status to the ally that replaces them. Baton Pass (Target Ally): Only usable in multi-battle formats. The user transfers their status to a target active ally.
The user transfers their status changes to an ally. Baton Pass transfers stage Boosts, Aqua Ring, trapping effects, Ghost-type Curse, Embargo, critical hit rate boosts, Gastro Acid, Ingrain, Leech Seed, Lock-On and Mind Reader, Magnet Rise, Perish Song's counter, Power Trick status, and Substitute decoys.

If this move targets an ally on the field, the user passes these effects to that target.

If this move targets the user, inflicts Switching (Self) on the user. The user will pass these effects to their replacement when they successfully switch.

Lastly, I propose that switching occurs after all other end-of-round effects, random switches first (with the round they're being reffed in) and then selected switches with the orders.
 

Mowtom

I'm so meta, even this acronym!
The BBP Corrosive Gas description (emphasis mine):
The user swamps the battlefield with highly acidic gas that melts anything it touches. Targets' held items become unuseable for the rest of the battle (even if switched out). The Pokemon is still treated as holding the item, but the item cannot be used, removed, or replaced. Pokemon with Sticky Hold are unaffected. This move cannot melt an Attachment, Mega Stone, or Z-Crystal, nor can it melt a Memory held by Silvally or a Plate held by Arceus. Melted items are ignored by Knock Off.
From the gen 8 battle mechanics research thread (emphasis again mine):
If you mean will the item be gone after an in-game battle unlike with Knock Off, I can't really test that. In the battle itself though, the item is destroyed. You can't use Recycle, and you can steal an item using Thief, which I tested in-game with Gengar and Garbodor.
Also, the Showdown description reads:
The target loses its held item. This move cannot cause Pokemon with the Sticky Hold Ability to lose their held item or cause a Kyogre, a Groudon, a Giratina, an Arceus, a Genesect, a Silvally, a Zacian, or a Zamazenta to lose their Blue Orb, Red Orb, Griseous Orb, Plate, Drive, Memory, Rusted Sword, or Rusted Shield respectively. Items lost to this move cannot be regained with Recycle or the Harvest Ability.
Is BBP Corrosive Gas different on purpose?
 
Player's Handbook said:
[Synchronized Moves]
If two allied Pokemon, consecutively in the same action, use a move in the All Targets category that shares a name the two moves can be synchronized. The users of synchronized moves do not deal damage to each other.
Can we clarify if this is automatic, wording is presently pretty ambiguous. Also if not automatic can we clarify the proper Syntax to synchro moves just to avoid confusion <3
 

Mowtom

I'm so meta, even this acronym!
Two more things that come to mind:

1) Prices of items are weird. As it stands, very good items like Sticky Barb, Choice Band/Scarf/Specs, and Eject Button sit at 3 RC along with the super niche Utility Umbrella, weather rocks, and Light Clay. New Iron Ball sits alone at 2 TC, Protective Pads and Shed Shell are each 4. Also, Mega stones that don't give their holder a new ability cost 2 more RC than Mega stones that do, to "balance out" the added effects of those stones. Even though the added effects balance out the fact that they don't add an ability. I don't have specific price fixes in mind but this is starting to bug me.

2) Can we please give CAPs their IoA tutor moves? Pretty please? With sugar on top?
 

nightblitz42

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Repricing items kinda sound like it's a bigger pain then it's worth, but I'll look into it when I get the chance.

As for IoA movelist changes, those are planned to go out at the same time as BdSp movelist changes. There will be an announcement when that happens.
 
I don't understand the desire to overhaul combinations in the way that has transpired during the Gen 8.3 update. While the change in priority can be helpful and the lack of cooldown is a potentially great boon, combos' classical purpose of maximizing a single action's damage output has been ruined by the change to combo BAP and the removal of same-move combinations, and their secondary purpose as tools for substitution abuse is impeded by the new limitation on their number of uses per battle. Moreover, the extent to which these changes benefit the average combo user is more limited than appearances would imply: using a combination in a higher priority bracket is only useful to a Pokemon that can outspeed its current foe, preventing slow Pokemon from enjoying the second most enticing perk of the new combo system, and the use of a Pokemon's Combo Token for any purpose other than optimizing its last hit makes future orders much easier for the opposing player by removing the threat damaging combinations pose to mid-to-low-health Pokemon. Finally, the removal of all combo tech is utterly counterproductive to an attempt to inspire creative combo usage; BAP-boosting tech options are admittedly incompatible with a wish to nerf damage-dealing combinations, but moves such as Rock Polish, Hypnosis, Constrict, and Vice Grip already provided an array of diverse uses for combinations by associating unique and potentially powerful effects with lesser-seen moves without increasing combo BAP to objectionable levels. Honestly, it seems that the impact of the changes will be limit combos' uses to changing the type of a high-BAP move or setting two hazards or screens with a single action while destroying the economy and pacing of flash matches.
 
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nightblitz42

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The primary motivation for reworking combos was to reduce their damage. Their high damage has been causing balance issues in smaller and faster-paced formats such as Doubles battles. I believe that the once-per-Pokemon restriction will have little effect on combo availability because under the old system Pokemon often didn't use Combinations more often than that to begin with (and if they did then they usually ended up ENKOing).

The new system encourages players optimize Combos for purposes other than maximizing BAP. Setting two layers of hazards is useful, but so is combining a damaging move with a status-inflicting move, or a low-accuracy move with a perfect-accuracy one. Now that Combos do not inflict Cooldown, disrupting moves such as Hypnosis and Encore can be used in damaging Combos to disrupt the opponent without losing out on damage. Some examples of Combinations that are made more viable by losing Cooldown would be: [Detect + Double Team] as a potent last-resort technique, [Heat Wave + Sunny Day] at the start of the Round to maximize Fire-Type damage, and [Wrap + Giga Impact] a3 to trap the target before initiating a Switch Phase.

If anything, I believe that the removal of Cooldown encourages players to use Combinations sooner in the match rather than later. But there is a case to be made that pressuring the opponent's sub economy for as long as possible is wiser.

I hated to see Combo Interactions such as Hypnosis and Vice Grip go, but now that Cooldown isn't a factor, the extra action denial that these Combos provided seemed a bit excessive.

In the future, the option to revert Combo mechanics will exist, but for now I would like to see how the changes play out before drawing my own conclusions.
 

Mowtom

I'm so meta, even this acronym!
There has been some discussion of what we're going to do about CAP30 and its Giratina-style item form. BBP Griseous Orb boosts Giratina's STAB by 3 BAP, and can't be removed. This is an absurdly powerful item effect that Giratina only has access to because it is a legend, which CAP30 will presumably not be.

On Discord, Jay floated the idea of making CAP30's item an attachment that has no extra effects, allowing CAP30i to hold any item it wants. This was because of worries that the item will be too powerful if it can't be removed, since removal is the standard counterplay to strong items. I would like to suggest that instead of that, we just nerf the item however much we need to. If the item did nothing at all but still took up the item slot, 30i would almost never be used in favor of 30b, since the stats and ability are different but not particularly better. +3 BAP to both STABs is too much, as is +4 final damage to both STABs. So why can't we just find a happy medium? Something like +1 BAP or +2 final damage to both STABs is unlikely to be overwhelming while still being good enough for 30i to sometimes be used over 30b.

EDIT: Apparently the way we're doing this is "when CAP30 is actually ready Jay will just sorta make a decision on the fly". I'm still leaving this up though.
 
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JJayyFeather

Drifting~
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Just to officialize the content of this edit, yes I did say that. I will be making this decision as the time nears closer, after I have all the information in front of me to give one clean evaluation and decision sitdown, as opposed to the currently speculative nature of the decision.
 
The primary motivation for reworking combos was to reduce their damage. Their high damage has been causing balance issues in smaller and faster-paced formats such as Doubles battles. I believe that the once-per-Pokemon restriction will have little effect on combo availability because under the old system Pokemon often didn't use Combinations more often than that to begin with (and if they did then they usually ended up ENKOing).

The new system encourages players optimize Combos for purposes other than maximizing BAP. Setting two layers of hazards is useful, but so is combining a damaging move with a status-inflicting move, or a low-accuracy move with a perfect-accuracy one. Now that Combos do not inflict Cooldown, disrupting moves such as Hypnosis and Encore can be used in damaging Combos to disrupt the opponent without losing out on damage. Some examples of Combinations that are made more viable by losing Cooldown would be: [Detect + Double Team] as a potent last-resort technique, [Heat Wave + Sunny Day] at the start of the Round to maximize Fire-Type damage, and [Wrap + Giga Impact] a3 to trap the target before initiating a Switch Phase.

If anything, I believe that the removal of Cooldown encourages players to use Combinations sooner in the match rather than later. But there is a case to be made that pressuring the opponent's sub economy for as long as possible is wiser.

I hated to see Combo Interactions such as Hypnosis and Vice Grip go, but now that Cooldown isn't a factor, the extra action denial that these Combos provided seemed a bit excessive.

In the future, the option to revert Combo mechanics will exist, but for now I would like to see how the changes play out before drawing my own conclusions.
Those are fair points. I will admit that I did not consider many of the uses you've mentioned. While I still think that the new mechanics will be a comparative downgrade, I'll gladly wait to see whether I'm correct.

On an unrelated note: as long as we're discussing new CAPs, have we decided whether Chromera will be purchasable yet? The CAP project claims it's a "Legendary CAP," but it's not listed with the official Legendaries in the Tier rankings.
 

JJayyFeather

Drifting~
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wrt above: In a couple of months I will be opening a focused feedback thread specific to the combo changes to make sure that we can group up and evaluate all the feedback after a little while of playing with the new system.
On an unrelated note: as long as we're discussing new CAPs, have we decided whether Chromera will be purchasable yet? The CAP project claims it's a "Legendary CAP," but it's not listed with the official Legendaries in the Tier rankings.
Oh, good point. I never stated anything on the forum about what was happening with Chromera, only on Discord. Chromera is going to be treated as a Legendary, i just never got around to sitting down and checking out where I felt it best made sense on the list.
 

Mowtom

I'm so meta, even this acronym!
The text for Hydration is "This Pokemon absorbs water during the rain to heal any status effects afflicting this Pokemon.". It has no mention of if this effect is continuous, end of turn, end of action, or end of round, unlike the similar abilities Shed Skin and Healer (both end of round). Can we explicitly write this into the text of the ability please? And perhaps add it to the list of effect timings in the handbook?
 

nightblitz42

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The text for Hydration is "This Pokemon absorbs water during the rain to heal any status effects afflicting this Pokemon.". It has no mention of if this effect is continuous, end of turn, end of action, or end of round, unlike the similar abilities Shed Skin and Healer (both end of round). Can we explicitly write this into the text of the ability please? And perhaps add it to the list of effect timings in the handbook?
I had assumed it was a continuous effect, but you're right that it should be explicit. Are there any objections to making it a continuous effect? Something like: "This Pokemon absorbs rainwater to sustain itself. While the weather is Rain, this Pokemon is continuously healed of all its Major Status Conditions."
 

LouisCyphre

heralds disaster.
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Means they can't Rest, which is its main function in the cart games. Making it end-of-turn means they can at least get 10 HP from it in a pinch.
 

nightblitz42

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Means they can't Rest, which is its main function in the cart games. Making it end-of-turn means they can at least get 10 HP from it in a pinch.
Rest healing is an end-of-Action effect, so making Hydration end-of-Turn would prevent Rest from healing. Shall we make Hydration end-of-Action with the same timing as weather-based damage/healing? I think that would achieve the intended interaction and still nullify Burn/Poison damage.
 
I propose reintroducing the Pokemon Center New York Event Moves as part of the Gen 8.3 update. Part of BBP's appeal is the ability to use a Pokemon's complete, aggregate movepool from all games in the main cartridge series, including older generations' TM, Tutor, and Event Moves, but this specific selection of legally usable moves was—perhaps mistakenly—cut during the purge of anime- and manga-exclusive moves. The PCNY event moves are obtainable in Generation II and collected in a single list on Bulbapedia, and their existence is verifiable on Smogon's GSC MoveDex as well as Showdown's Teambuilder, so their addition would not be overly difficult.
 

nightblitz42

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I propose reintroducing the Pokemon Center New York Event Moves as part of the Gen 8.3 update. Part of BBP's appeal is the ability to use a Pokemon's complete, aggregate movepool from all games in the main cartridge series, including older generations' TM, Tutor, and Event Moves, but this specific selection of legally usable moves was—perhaps mistakenly—cut during the purge of anime- and manga-exclusive moves. The PCNY event moves are obtainable in Generation II and collected in a single list on Bulbapedia, and their existence is verifiable on Smogon's GSC MoveDex as well as Showdown's Teambuilder, so their addition would not be overly difficult.
Good catch! I totally forgot about those. I will make sure to add those moves in with the upcoming movepool update.
 

Florina Liastacia

Gotta flex on the rest of Battle-By-Post
nb told me to put this in the thread so he didn't forget

"Protect will only protect the user if used in a combination such as Protect + Light Screen, Reflect, and Safeguard." could be interpreted as "if you use Protect in a combo but not with these three moves, it will not protect the user"

just a quick reword to make it specific to it's intended interpretation about Protect only affecting the user in doubles even when used in a combo that affects both allies
 

nightblitz42

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Idea proposed by Florina Liastacia on Discord and seconded by me:
Can we implement Sword and Shield's Signature G-Max Moves as Signature Z-Moves? As far as I know, we don't have any plans to implement Dynamax, so I think at least converting the signature G-Max Moves into Z-Moves would be nice.

Example:
Sig Item: Venusaurium GMax: Once per match, a Pokemon holding this item can use the Z-Move: G-Max Vine Lash, by linking either Petal Dance or Power Whip.
Move: G-Max Vine Lash: Must hold a Venusaurium GMax. Must be linked to Petal Dance or Power Whip. Must be used by Venusaur. For the next 4 actions, all non-Grass-Type foes lose 2 HP per action. Whether this move is a Physical or Special attack depends on the linked move.
Category: Depends | Type: Grass | Accuracy: -- | BAP: 14 | EN cost: 8 | Target: Any Single Target | Effect Chance: -- | Priority: 0
 
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Can we just have them all use the same item if this is a thing? I don't know if people would have issues with this economically (bc you only have to buy one) but just using Dynamax Candy seems thematically relevant
 

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