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Game of Thrones [thronies rejoice! XD]
- Thread starter WayOfRhetoric
- Start date
I just can't believe that George had like no say in these last two seasons, and there's no way that he did. There have been almost no good storytelling elements that made the first 4-5 seasons so good. And I just can't get over that fact. Like why even have bothered taking the extra year? They still have been spitting out crap. Did these guys get like no one else to read over their stuff? The end of this show will leave so many questions and it's a shame we may never get the books, because I have a feeling they broke George somehow, and he's probably jaded enough now that he may never put them out.
My Tinfoil hat theory is that he gave D&D a rough outline of future plot events to use as a trial balloon to see how the public would react to it so he can change the books accordingly.
Did anyone else find the battle in episode 3 dissapointing? Shooting the whole thing at night was an interesting idea, and has worked before (Blackwater, The Watchers on the Wall), but I had trouble sometimes telling who was who, and I honestly didn't really fear for any of the characters. Plus the Night King, who they'd built up really well, went out like a total wimp, and fell for a really obvious trap. And of course no important characters die.
There was a time when Game of Thrones took a sledgehammer to the concept of plot armour, but sadly it seems those days are done.
There was a time when Game of Thrones took a sledgehammer to the concept of plot armour, but sadly it seems those days are done.
D&D just want to be done with the series. HBO apparently offered them more episodes/seasons to properly close out the series, but they turned those down for 13 episodes we're getting. They have specific plot points they need to hit, but don't necessarily have the build up to that event so everything is rushed and poorly executed.
Daenerys has pretty much become season 5 Stannis Baratheon right now. So desperate for the Iron Throne that she ignores any counselor that counsel her restraint.
On another note, I actually feel sorry for Daenerys right now. She's losing supporters (and not gaining any) while people are scheming against her, and two of her most loyal counselors are now dead. Pretty much the exact opposite from how popular she was in Essos.
On another note, I actually feel sorry for Daenerys right now. She's losing supporters (and not gaining any) while people are scheming against her, and two of her most loyal counselors are now dead. Pretty much the exact opposite from how popular she was in Essos.
If you weren't sure last season, and you weren't sure last episode, you will be ABSO FUCKIN LUTELY sure after episode 5.
This show is BOOTY
This show is BOOTY
P.S. If you weren't sure why they killed Varys in such an unceremonious manner that doesn't live up to his character at all, it was because they had to find a way to justify how his head is stitched onto the Mountain's body half an hour later. It's simple algebra; order of operations
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What a shit show lmaoo
"Let's kill off the smartest characters in the dumbest way. It's irony and unexpected, you know, good writing elements."
The worst part of the episode was how cersei legitimately had no back up plan. Like really? The person who's had an answer and two more after that had no back up plan at all for if Dany took out the scorpions? What a fucking joke.
Asek
Banned deucer.
even in the conext of this awful season this episode makes little sense. how did the scorpions go from perfect accuracy with single shots to entire volleys being easily dodgable by an oncoming target? how did euron swim to shore essentially uninjured and why on earth is it to the secret entrance that jamie is using? why does tyrion rat on varys? how come arya survives ten situations that would have killed a character every time a few seasons ago? Daenarys whole essos / slavers bay arc may as well have been cut as its basically meant nothing to her end character arc as the first 6 seasons have basically been written out of her development in favour of a 3 episode meltdown. overall its hard to be excited for the final episode. cleganebowl felt like tacky fan service. the only scenes i enjoyed were sandor and aryas farewell and jamie and cerseis death (i feel the latter could have been given better justice tho...)
Wasn't her first plan getting all those innocent people inside Kings Landing so Dany would dare to attack?
I actually didn't hate the episode as much as I thought I would. The acting was amazing, considering the script they had. Tyrion and Jaime together always feels true, and Daenerys' emotions when trying to fight the madness, as well as Cersei's final words were all done very well.
I actually like the Mad Queen route they went, you either die a hero, or live long enough to become the villain, right? Although as most story arcs these last seasons this feels way to rushed and executed poorly. The golden company, Jaime's end and Euron's death were also underwhelming (Qyburn lol), at least Cleganebowl was kinda decent.
Since Dany is the final villain in the series, I hope they won't end with Jon killing her and that'll be the end of it. Her army is incredibly loyal and Drogon seems invincible. But it has to end some way and I don't think we'll see another large battle (Jon vs Greyworm), too bad they didn't run an additional season to end it properly.
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I'm actually on the other side and I appreciated the episode (not perfect, but I appreciated it), and here are my opinions:
Ups:
+Top notch acting from Peter Dinklage, Nikolaj Coster-Waldau, Lena Headey, and Emilia Clark. Emilia plays her character's struggle from madness really well.
+Daenerys' arc. A lot of people may dislike it, but it's better than just taking the throne and cleanly defeating Cersei. It's in her DNA and we've seen tendencies from her madness in the previous seasons: coldy watching his brother die, burning people who refuse to follow her. She has constantly struggled to keep it but bad things keep on happening to her. She lost two of her dragons, her most loyal friends, Tyrion keeps on failing her, and Varys and Jon had betrayed her. Then she just lost control. Cersei is the evil queen, while Daenerys is the mad queen.
+Cleganebowl. People complained that its too "fanservice", but if it didn't happen, people would have complained the other way. Almost everyone has been waiting for this! Let's just appreciate that it was beautifully choreographed. It had the elements of Hound vs Brienne brawling. I loved the callback from Oberyn when Gregor attempted to crush Sandor's eyes. Luckily, Sandor was on guard here so he barely survived it. While I really wanted Sandor to win, a draw is a good way of both men going down looking strong.
+All of Jaime's scenes. His scene with Tyrion really melted my heart. Well done by both actors. I weirdly liked his battle with Euron as it finished his arc of left-hand training by defeating a crafty warrior in Euron. As for his scene with Cersei, while I wanted him to kill Cersei, their final moment was quite touching, enhanced by Lena's and Nikolaj's acting.
+Arya deciding not to kill Cersei is quite a character development. It gives her more vision in life than revenge. This allowed her to be more sympathetic to the sack victims.
+ I like how this episode has gave me an idea on how the Tywin's sack of King's Landing looked like.
+Qyburn's death lol. As cunning as he is, he's still just a villain's sidekick so him getting a somewhat comical death is good for a chuckle.
+Cersei doesn't surrender. She has never surrendered. Not to the High Sparrow, not to the Dragon Queen.
Downs:
-Varys' death. Mixed feelings here. I liked how Dany delivered her promise back in season 7, but Varys shouldn't have died. I already disliked how his role has diminished since season 6. He's a smart person, smarter than Tyrion. Though Tyrion (closest thing he has for a best friend) betraying him at least didn't make him a complete fool.
-Arya's plot armor. So thick! She keeps on surviving. The same somewhat applies to Tyrion.
-The Golden Company looking like asses. Cersei bought them with Highgarden gold! They didn't deliver the elephants. They didn't deliver in battle either.
-Jon Snow being blindly loyal to Daenerys. The honorable Jon Snow took about 3/4 of the episode before helping the victims of the sack.
-A bit rushed. I still feel a 10-episode format would have benefitted this season.
Ups:
+Top notch acting from Peter Dinklage, Nikolaj Coster-Waldau, Lena Headey, and Emilia Clark. Emilia plays her character's struggle from madness really well.
+Daenerys' arc. A lot of people may dislike it, but it's better than just taking the throne and cleanly defeating Cersei. It's in her DNA and we've seen tendencies from her madness in the previous seasons: coldy watching his brother die, burning people who refuse to follow her. She has constantly struggled to keep it but bad things keep on happening to her. She lost two of her dragons, her most loyal friends, Tyrion keeps on failing her, and Varys and Jon had betrayed her. Then she just lost control. Cersei is the evil queen, while Daenerys is the mad queen.
+Cleganebowl. People complained that its too "fanservice", but if it didn't happen, people would have complained the other way. Almost everyone has been waiting for this! Let's just appreciate that it was beautifully choreographed. It had the elements of Hound vs Brienne brawling. I loved the callback from Oberyn when Gregor attempted to crush Sandor's eyes. Luckily, Sandor was on guard here so he barely survived it. While I really wanted Sandor to win, a draw is a good way of both men going down looking strong.
+All of Jaime's scenes. His scene with Tyrion really melted my heart. Well done by both actors. I weirdly liked his battle with Euron as it finished his arc of left-hand training by defeating a crafty warrior in Euron. As for his scene with Cersei, while I wanted him to kill Cersei, their final moment was quite touching, enhanced by Lena's and Nikolaj's acting.
+Arya deciding not to kill Cersei is quite a character development. It gives her more vision in life than revenge. This allowed her to be more sympathetic to the sack victims.
+ I like how this episode has gave me an idea on how the Tywin's sack of King's Landing looked like.
+Qyburn's death lol. As cunning as he is, he's still just a villain's sidekick so him getting a somewhat comical death is good for a chuckle.
+Cersei doesn't surrender. She has never surrendered. Not to the High Sparrow, not to the Dragon Queen.
Downs:
-Varys' death. Mixed feelings here. I liked how Dany delivered her promise back in season 7, but Varys shouldn't have died. I already disliked how his role has diminished since season 6. He's a smart person, smarter than Tyrion. Though Tyrion (closest thing he has for a best friend) betraying him at least didn't make him a complete fool.
-Arya's plot armor. So thick! She keeps on surviving. The same somewhat applies to Tyrion.
-The Golden Company looking like asses. Cersei bought them with Highgarden gold! They didn't deliver the elephants. They didn't deliver in battle either.
-Jon Snow being blindly loyal to Daenerys. The honorable Jon Snow took about 3/4 of the episode before helping the victims of the sack.
-A bit rushed. I still feel a 10-episode format would have benefitted this season.
Why the fuck is Arya still alive
Your choice was either following the escape of King's Landing from arya's point of view or following it from the point of view of 5-6 extras who either die off or have the same "plot armor". Its a cinematographic choice rather than a narrative one, and I'm fine with that as I think it was very effective in conveying the scope and scale of the devastation in the fall of King's Landing to the audience.
The horse was fucking stupid though
On the whole I thought the episode was fine. With the exception of Jamie (terrible resolution to his character arc) the actions of the characters were by and large reasonable ones based on who they'd developed into.
Complaints about the scorpions are kind of silly, they're more a reaction to narrative dissatisfaction than the battle logic itself. Hitting a moving target especially a mobile one like a dragon is extremely difficult, particularly for a static, hard to move object like the scorpion. If you accept that Rhaegal was hit because of *the element of surprise* than it's reasonable to assume that a prepared Drogon/Dany would use better aerial tactics to avoid the ballistae, evidenced by the approach vector and strafing fire. The real complaint here is how stupid it was that a friggin dragon rider could be snuck up on by a fleet which makes Rhaegal's death stupid as fuck, but Drogon smashing the fleet is quite realistic.
On the other hand, fucking Euron
tl;dr people bitch about this season way more than it deserves, it's not very good, it's been just fine, and people see it as terrible because of the high standards of the earlier seasons, but it's not terrible or the worst thing ever or whatnot either.
Essentially I feel like the last couple of seasons have been pretty good TV, they just haven't actually been game of thrones
Edit: should comment on Dany, I appreciate the issues with her development as it relates to her actions in Mereen and Slaver's Bay but it's notable to consider that she's never faced any real hardship among her personal relationships outside of the death of Barristan Selmy from the time she took to being a leader. In very short order she's lost Jorah, Missandei, and has perceived betrayal from Jon, Tyrion, and Varys, literally all of her closest advisors and confidants, in addition to the paranoia regarding Sansa and the North. In that context I don't think it's abrupt at all to see her descend into the "Mad Queen" role, she's experiencing some crazy emotional turmoil and there's not a single person she trusts anymore to temper those emotions or the decision making behind it.
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The people complaining online that “the scorpions can’t be amazing weapons sometimes and terrible ones other times” have clearly never clicked Focus Blast.
Went to bed disliking the episode. Don’t mind it as much after more reflection. Overall season is still probably about a 6/10. As always, lots of good criticisms out there, but also some nutty ones.
Went to bed disliking the episode. Don’t mind it as much after more reflection. Overall season is still probably about a 6/10. As always, lots of good criticisms out there, but also some nutty ones.
I wish this season had more moments like the second episode were they all get drunk by a fire and fucking chill, easily the peak of the season.
EV
Banned deucer.
The criticisms are fair and deserved.
One of the best shows on television for the last eight years is nosediving and people are scrambling to make excuses, probably because they don't want to feel like the culmination of these last eight years that they've invested are suddenly for naught. But the rest of us have a right to be angry and "overly" critical. This series (the books and the adaptation) was built on shattering tropes and surprising the audience at every turn. In the progression of a story, the climax should be a 10. To see it go out in a 6 is a punch in the gut.
For episode 5 specifically, nothing was earned. Varys did not earn his unceremonious demise. Tyrion did not earn his half-hearted turnabout. Dany did not earn her downward spiral in the matter of minutes. Arya did not earn her last-second reversal. Cersei did not earn such a pathetic defeat. And in probably one of the most insulting character regressions of anyone, Jaime certainly did not earn his shrug-of-the-shoulders loathing of King's Landing's civilians when his motivation for killing the last mad king was to spare the city from burning.
And yeah, I'm pissed the scorpions proved to be nothing more than hood (bow?) ornaments and fodder for an unlimited spew of dragon fire. The "if the audience can't see him, no one can" directing of Dany & Dragon was absurd beyond belief. During the scene when the Golden Company got ass blasted from behind, why didn't anyone mounted on the walls turn AROUND and warn the others that a fucking dragon was flying over the city? Does nobody look over their shoulders whilst manning parapets anymore? And where were the archers as the coalition stormed the city? Why wasn't Drogon stuck with arrows? Sure, the scorpion accuracy was off that day, but a thousand or so highly mobile archers on foot would have had plenty of opportunity to shoot at him or the city's invaders at some point.
As for Arya being our eyes during the escape of King's Landing, no, she or a handful of extras weren't our only choices. We also had Jon and Davos in the city providing a POV of the escape. Arya was pinballed around the city and knocked unconscious, what, twice? I much rather would have seen Jon claw his way out of a burning city as he battled frightened Lannister men and berserking Dothraki/Northmen than Arya. (However, the scene with her trying to lead the mother and daughter to safety was shot expertly. Still, Jon could have filled that role and probably would have filled it better.)
I'm wearing all black today as a display of mourning for the death of Game of Thrones. Next Sunday can't come soon enough so we can pitch the corpse into a shallow grave already.
One of the best shows on television for the last eight years is nosediving and people are scrambling to make excuses, probably because they don't want to feel like the culmination of these last eight years that they've invested are suddenly for naught. But the rest of us have a right to be angry and "overly" critical. This series (the books and the adaptation) was built on shattering tropes and surprising the audience at every turn. In the progression of a story, the climax should be a 10. To see it go out in a 6 is a punch in the gut.
For episode 5 specifically, nothing was earned. Varys did not earn his unceremonious demise. Tyrion did not earn his half-hearted turnabout. Dany did not earn her downward spiral in the matter of minutes. Arya did not earn her last-second reversal. Cersei did not earn such a pathetic defeat. And in probably one of the most insulting character regressions of anyone, Jaime certainly did not earn his shrug-of-the-shoulders loathing of King's Landing's civilians when his motivation for killing the last mad king was to spare the city from burning.
And yeah, I'm pissed the scorpions proved to be nothing more than hood (bow?) ornaments and fodder for an unlimited spew of dragon fire. The "if the audience can't see him, no one can" directing of Dany & Dragon was absurd beyond belief. During the scene when the Golden Company got ass blasted from behind, why didn't anyone mounted on the walls turn AROUND and warn the others that a fucking dragon was flying over the city? Does nobody look over their shoulders whilst manning parapets anymore? And where were the archers as the coalition stormed the city? Why wasn't Drogon stuck with arrows? Sure, the scorpion accuracy was off that day, but a thousand or so highly mobile archers on foot would have had plenty of opportunity to shoot at him or the city's invaders at some point.
As for Arya being our eyes during the escape of King's Landing, no, she or a handful of extras weren't our only choices. We also had Jon and Davos in the city providing a POV of the escape. Arya was pinballed around the city and knocked unconscious, what, twice? I much rather would have seen Jon claw his way out of a burning city as he battled frightened Lannister men and berserking Dothraki/Northmen than Arya. (However, the scene with her trying to lead the mother and daughter to safety was shot expertly. Still, Jon could have filled that role and probably would have filled it better.)
I'm wearing all black today as a display of mourning for the death of Game of Thrones. Next Sunday can't come soon enough so we can pitch the corpse into a shallow grave already.
I agree with all of this, and wasn't trying to suggest otherwise.
Varys: Agreed.
Tyrion: Not sure what you're referring to.
Dany: Agreed. I've seen defences about her history of burning enemies, but none of that is the same as burning random civilians and soldiers who have already surrendered.
Arya: Mixed feelings. I think I buy it a little because Sandor used her long-standing opinion of him to make his point.
Cersei: Not 100% sure what you're referring to, but if it's one of the many criticisms of her death, I though her death was fitting. She spent most of the series figuratively trapped in the Red Keep, and was largely shaped into the villain we saw by that corrupt and dangerous environment. Then she seized control and had chances to leave, but was too far gone, and too dependent on political power to protect herself. Then when she finally did try to leave, she was literally trapped, and the keep itself killed her. Not bad.
Jaime: I didn't even believe the loathing when he said it ("he's just saying things under stress"), so if we were supposed to take that seriously, it was maybe the least earned moment of all.
Just a stray thought, and this one is me reaching for excuses, but my headcanon on all of the weird battle tactics this season is that there's been a brain drain from years of war and corruption, and most of the good battlefield commanders in Westeros are dead. But this idea holds up better on Dany's side than Cersei's.
EV
Banned deucer.
His betrayal of Varys.
Her inaction during the battle and lack of a back-up plan. This is Cersei, who blew up the Sept of Baelor for crying out loud. She didn't have any contingencies in case the anti-air defenses failed and the city was overrun? Hell, build a moat and fill it with wildfire. As for Drogon, which can't be killed by fire, how about a net pulled across the spires of the Red Keep as it approached? Then stab it in the fucking eye.
Hubris killed her, sure, but the Cersei I know would have put up more of a fight in earlier seasons.
overall weak episode imo, cersei is supposed to win and live somehow and they had it all set up like she would for most of the episode. if you watch the episode being like 'cersei is gonna find a way', she kind of seems to have a chance once daenarys starts burning the city, since if ppl would just turn on daenarys, cersei could come through clean. so idk, that kept me watching. i guess the turning on khaleesi will be next episode. the show could still be ok if daenarys burns the starks in the last episode so, but i reckon we're gonna get something else. also cersei's dying dress was disappointing
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i'll be honest, loved the episode, this season needed 10 eps but only ep 4 really stinks. Loved Jaime's anti-arc, loved Cleganebowl's resolution, LOVED Daenery's descent, loved the King's Landing PoV, loved the poetry of Cersei's empire toppling on top of her. Euron is lame as always but honestly, this episode was amazing and I'm sure time will treat Season 8 very kindly (and I was one of those who absolutely loathed S7).