Announcement Gas Gas Gas - LC Suspect

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LC Leader
And I'll be your hero
:gastly: :Gastly: :gastly:

The second Little Cup suspect of the generation should be a surprise to no one paying attention. A tried and true Pokemon which was once a top-tier mainstay is now instead up for debate to be removed from the tier. Boasting a distinguished 18 Speed and a desirable Ghost- Poison- typing and helpful ability, Gastly is a unique face in the tier. With a well-appreciated move pool and a handful of mechanics working in its favor, not using Gastly is awfully difficult.

Gastly is not exactly bulky but has the Speed stat to burn and weaken many Pokemon with Will-o-Wisp, in effect making Gastly have a fair ability to take on physical attackers on top of its obvious offensive power. With an all together limited distribution of Knock Off and continued nonexistence of Pursuit, Gastly and the rest of the Ghost-types have fairly desirable defensive profiles. Additionally, common offensive resources for difficult-to-manage threats do not apply to Gastly, which cannot be trapped by Diglett or Gothita and its typing stifles the surprise revenge-killing star of the prior metagame: Nymble. On the defensive end, Gastly can burn and Hex through many Pokemon when given the chance. Will-o-Wisp and Hex are so good against most of the tier that Gastly has flexibility with its final moves, as demonstrated in various Winter League games. To note the most disruptive, these include Protect for scouting offensive checks, Icy Wind both for Toedscool as well as the Speed drop, and Taunt for disrupting defensive checks. Life Orb Gastly remains another noted threat which immediately pressures teams, with Choice Scarf and Nasty Plot sets lurking as additional considerations in the builder.

Tera transformations and types are a dynamic piece of the game, with Gastly the mechanic can serve both defensive and offensive purposes. Most offensive Pokemon can leverage offensive-minded Teras and this is hardly worth noting. When used successfully, Gastly can demolish would-be checks. However, when used too soon, the loss of Gastly's typing can be a detriment though the trade-off is worth it more often than not. These aspects are true enough of many offensive threats when supported by Teras, but as a reminder, this is a holistic suspect on Gastly where we are asking the question: Is Gastly broken?

The voting requirements are a minimum GXE of 78 with at least 50 games played. In addition, you may play 1 less game for every 0.2 GXE you have above 78 GXE, down to a minimum of 30 games at a GXE of 82. As always, needing more than 50 games to reach 78 GXE is fine.
GXEminimum games

For this suspect test, we will be using the regular SV LC ladder, so you must create a new account that begins with "GASLC" to qualify. When you have reached the requirements, click here to post your proof. Gastly will be legal on the ladder until the suspect is over. The suspect period will end on Sunday, February 26th at 11:59 PM PST / GMT -8.

When posting in this thread, please keep in mind these rules:
1. No one-liners or uninformed posts.
2. No discussion on other potential suspects or the suspect process.
3. Be respectful.

Your post will be deleted and possibly infracted if you fail to follow them.
...To the surprise of approximately checks notes zero people. Heheh.

Gastly always was the little bro that you know is trying his best while Misdreavus was around, and then with Girafarig around Gastly had a fairly reliable answer who, while they couldnt take a hit, outsped everything but Scarf and OHKO'd easily in return. And now those two, its main competition and its arguable best answer, are gone. It's almost hilarious how well it manages to beat almost every form of revenge killing we have right now, being immune to BOTH trappers, burning Pawniard, and taking inconsequential damage long-term from Nymble (Scarfers lose to Scarf Gastly usually, with maybe one or two exceptions? Someone else can back me up there, or correct me if I'm wrong.) Tera just makes it downright stupid to try fighting, not unlike my girl Misdreavus before. It doesn't help that the most common speed tier is 16 or 17, which Gastly oh so conveniently outspeeds, and generally 2HKOs or OHKOs the entire tier, barring a few sparce exceptions. I always loved Nasty Plot Substitute Lorb Gastly just to screw with ladder, and it was depressingly effective at cleaning house on one predict vs Pawn.

I doubt this thing will survive the ban hammer, and I won't be sad to see it go.
anything that makes crabrawler and chewtle more viable is good, LES GO
i've been noticing a trend with these broken mons
literally ALL of them use tera in a very amazing way, not a single one wasn't worth using tera over
probably doesn't mean anything but i'll keep it in my mental notebook for later
They are noteworthy users of tera ON TOP of being stupidly broken mons.
Ghastly has always been stupidly good. Tera is just another good tool at their disposal but not THE reason they're bonkers.
Also, this reminds me that I have to rapidly come back to LC to love Ghastly before it gets banned.
As much as I'm sad, I guess that's not going to be healthy, to keep it. RIP my (other) beloved broken ghost.
I think Gastly is too powerful of a mon to be worth having around in the metagame.

Its flagship Eviolite Will-O-Wisp set forces progress effectively and is close to impossible to answer reliably, as its combination of speed, power and capability of living some hits gives it an edge over most mons. Many mons that would trade hits with it favorably like Pawniard and Mudbray get beaten by burn.

All the other tools at its disposal such as Life Orb, Choice Scarf and Tera Blast Fighting can make it even harder to deal with, as your mons that you think would have a fair shot against it may just get OHKO'd.

Gastly speedties are also just miserable.
Ghastly has always been stupidly good. Tera is just another good tool at their disposal but not THE reason they're bonkers.
i do agree that it isn't the central reason these guys have been banned
its just that tera might push some of them over the edge in the future
like for example, how many people would vote do not ban on gastly if tera was nuked?
as i said though, probably doesn't mean much but i'll keep it in my mind for future bans
Gastly is a really interesting mon. Back in Gen 7, it was arguably stronger thanks to Z-Crystals, but was kept in check by several mons with large presences - like Mienfoo's Knock Off and Abra's Shadow Ball. Gen 8 rolls around, and it's somehow less in check - the little meta shift dislodged it from its position and it floated up higher. When a mon dies to both the strongest mons in the tier, it's considered "in check". But when you remove those two, Gastly becomes way more powerful.

Arguably, Gastly still loses to several mons in the tier - the issue is that the best offensive pressure move is Sucker Punch, which rewards a free switch if called correctly. Tack on Tera, and he becomes a pretty difficult-to-handle menace. I personally hold the controversial position that if the community didn't want to ban Peak Abra in Gen 7, then Gastly isn't much worse.
I think the main thing with Gastly is that is isn't quite as oppressive as many of the other mons previously banned. It is certainly strong and arguably the best pokemon in the tier right now. That said I think that the 18 speed is what moves it in to the incredibly strong but not busted territory. Mons that can outspeed and aren't OHKOd are going to be able to check it, and Gastly has an unfortunate situation in that it's scarf set requires prediction or is abusable if it does kill something. Shadow Ball or Hex / Sludge Bomb / Thunderbolt all have pokes that see play that are immune to them, Ice Punch needs to be run over Icy Wind to secure KOs on common Toed Builds. Tera Fighting also has pokes immune to it if the scarf goes that way. This is a just a strong and good scarfer.

I personally feel like Life Orb is a bit weak bc of the KOs it misses on faster or equal mons. Stunky forces you to play speed tie and just lose anyway or play speed tie AND predict it's physical. Buizel switches in on anything other than Tbolt and threatens Crunch KO, even with rocks. Gastly needs either Rocks and Max roll, or Rocks AND Poison from Sbomb to KO. Voltorb isn't OHKO'd and pivots around it. Pokemon seeing rsises in play like Eevee also don't care a heap. Tinkatink does well. Mudbray + Normal plays around. Life Orb also has big trouble with Pawn without Tera, and Pawn also has many Tera plays as well bc no on is clicking Sball on Pawn if you want to play Tera Chicken after you see it's life orb.

For Evio, Special Stunky and Buizel abuse the set all day. Fuecoco does well, Special Croagunk also doesn't care. If it clicks WoW or Tera Fighting on like a Pawn it loses to many more switchins like Voltorb and Wingull.

All of that may still be fringe ban worthy I guess if you squint and aren't convinced that Stunky and Buizel are bonkers mons in their own right as both are currently UU and woefully underrated in general. Sure I get you. But, there is also the case that Gastly gets to come back in to the tier as soon as Chespin releases bc that mon really doesn't care about either stab and opens up so much more Counterplay.

There is also the case that while Gastly is very good at picking up cheap kills with it's good speed tier and offensive strength, there are good mons that come in and build momentum. Meowth, Wingull, Voltorb, Buizel, Stunky are all great mons that can create pressure and momentum after Gastly gets kills. I think it is too early to look at a Gastly ban, and I think it probably isn't ban worthy anyway.

Just editing to say that I actually look forward to discussion here bc I have been playing slightly less of late so I am happy to be shown angles I haven't seen. But this is my initial take.


You Wanna See Me Dead Cause Of My Hops
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OK, I've gotten reqs and think I have my mind made up:

Gastly is the best mon in the meta, and is on every team. This on its own is not an unforgivable offense (see: SS Mienfoo), the problem is that Gastly is good in a very volatile way. Gastly's explosive power, variety of sets and highly weighted speed-ties with itself are not conducive to a competitive metagame. A better comparison to SS Mienfoo would be Toedscool, the 2nd best mon in the meta in my opinion, and has about the same usage as Gastly, practically 100%, but is "overpowered" in a pretty stable, benign way. (Pawniard, which is number three and also on every team is also lowkey broken with the SD set, but is lesser than Gastly due to being generally weaker, having less variety/utility, and needing Tera more).

With that being said, I still think Gastly might've been able to stick around, but unfortunately the straw that breaks the camel's back is that it's too strong a facilitator of cheese. I got reqs (and beat Kythr ffs) with this team, some real premium grade-a bullshit. The ability to Will-O-Wisp a Pawniard for example, and then sack your Gastly to send in a Shellder/Chewtle/Numel/Anything that can boost its stats, abuse tera, and has speed/priority is too good, and too consistent a cheese strategy. It reminds me a lot of Using Larvesta to enable Magby in SS, and while I disagreed with the Magby ban, since in the this case it's the enabler of several Magby-like Pokemon that's the broken element, with this enabler also clearly being the best Pokemon outside of this role, getting rid of it seems in everyone's best interest. The only real counter to this to abuse the sheer matchup-fishiness of the meta, with things like Crabrawler for Chewtle, Mareanie for Numel and Nymble for other set-up sweepers. Better hope you don't run into any standard team while using lame Nymble though!

With all that being said, I also don't want to play a meta where known piece-of-shit Crabrawler is the best Pokemon, so maybe we're just fucked. Anyone else looking forward to Home or just me?
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i do not think gastly should be banned.
ik im like one of the few people with this opinion, but in all my time playing this tier (credentials: playing lcwl currently and building most slots) i havent felt like its all that oppressive.
while i do agree with the opinion that it is really hard to account for in the builder (there is one standard check that will get crippled by its most common set in wisp and killed by the other ones with tera blast fighting in pawniard, two other checks that get as crippled but are way way less used in shroodle and sandile, and its best conventional check and an underrated mon in stunky), but in all my 4 weeks playing this tier (3 regular lcwl weeks + the no girafarig slot which i did play) i really havent found gastly to be all that destructive in actual games.
its most common set is evio wisp hex, with sludge and then one of tbolt psychic taunt whatever. that set will always more than likely have some value, between its suprising defensive profile (checking nymble and the fighters to name a few), and that lets it enter the field multiple times to do its things, but i do think theres always a roadblock in its path that doesnt allow it to truly win games. in order to win a game you first have to get rid of the pawniard, which is no easy task with the wisp set (you of course beat it long term, but by that time the game is probably halfway done and gastly will only enter the field like once). for this fact only i think gastly is more of a good healthy defensive presence in the tier than a destructive force. i dont think it strains much in the builder bc you cant run counters to it anyway, so you dont. you always brute force your way through it. you use pawn regardless since that mons broken lol so that helps.
there are sets that annihilate pawn tho, but usually tera fighting sets wont have the defensive presence that evio does, leaving it with less opportunities to touch the field, thus limiting its breaking power as well.
im totally convinced that it shouldnt be banned, but i also do not care so do whatever and dont clown me lol


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We got fucked pretty badly by the mon pool that GF gave us this gen, so I do worry about a post-Gastly meta. As it stands, though, the mon is simply way too oppressive and unmanageable. The standard wisp hex set beats 85% of the tier 1v1, with the exception of sub-optimal cheese sets that are purely meant to eat a wisp and do whatever (bulk up water veil buizel? people like this gen so far?). Gastly's ability to spread burns, most importantly on Pawniard, removes one of the only good checks to the shell smash spam that is currently prolific in LCWL. Games being decided by Gastly ties are also lame as hell, and reminiscent of the Mienfoo ties from last gen (only worse because Gastlies can drop each other from full pretty much always).

This is all to say nothing about what happens if you play for the standard Gastly set and are wrong. Scarf, LO, and even evio Nasty Plot can severely punish teams that play around evio gast, and it even gets options like Icy Wind to OHKO Toedscool with LO. Gastly is also a poster child for the worst aspect of Tera, which is the choice to simply not get checked every once in a while. Fighting, Fire, Ground, and Ghost are all viable options.

I don't really know how anybody who thought Vullaby was oppressive last generation can't see the problems with Gastly. The mon needs to go.
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