Gems in BW OU

Status
Not open for further replies.

peng

fuck xatu
is a Community Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnus
The BW OU Council has recently been discussing the items Gems, and would like to invite the playerbase at large to give their thoughts on these items in BW Overused specifically. At this time, we ask you to hold your thoughts regarding Gems in BW lower tiers.

Type-specific Gems are an item group unique to BW that give a 50% boost to the first attack used that shares the Gem's typing, in a fashion that is stackable with stage boosts. Whilst Gems have had a somewhat niche role in BW history, in the last 18 months strategies involving these items have become increasingly common, including but not limited to:
  • Bug Gem + Quiver Dance Volcarona
  • Ice/Rock Gem + Shell Smash Cloyster
  • Fighting/Grass Gem + Swords Dance Breloom
  • Dragon Gem + Calm Mind Latios
The Pokemon above are already commonly pointed out as problematic threats in our tier, though previous discussions with the community reveal little consensus which of these threats we should prioritise acting on - see this hectic thread. The BW OU playerbase has consistently expressed discontent with the metagame, though with so many strong threats and a well-described "broken-checks-broken" element to the tier, deciding what threats have sufficient backing to suspect has been an immense challenge.

However, it is impossible to ignore the fact that many of the most controversial threats also happen to be the tier's premier Gem abusers. Following internal discussion, the BW OU council see strong reasoning to believe Gems themselves may be an unhealthy presence in BW OU, strongly limiting counterplay to a multitude of the tier's already potent threats, and that action on Gems rather than individual abusers at this stage may be the preferred route to take.

I should note that BW Council had initially aimed to act on Gems this week depending on the results of a casual survey that was sent out to 34 qualified players. General tiering council have decided this to be insufficient and that moving forward with anything here should be done with support beyond that pool of players, regardless of their responses so far. As such, we are opening this thread to gather opinions from the wider playerbase and may hold an official vote with qualified voterbase at a later stage.

In the meantime, we invite you to express your opinion on the subject of Gems in BW OU in this thread. If you don't have the ability to post on this thread, look here: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/how-to-request-posting-access.3686937/

Questions:
  1. Do you consider any of the common Gem-using Pokemon problematic?
  2. If so, is your preferred route to act on Gems, or act on individual abusers?
  3. If so, which abusers?
ty ty
 
Last edited:

peng

fuck xatu
is a Community Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnus
I'll go first.

First and foremost I would like to quickly point out that, despite the convenient timing, this is not a reckless proposal spurred by a recent video from a certain former-council-member-turned-youtuber - Gems are something that have been on Council's radar since the end of SPLXIII, have been a regular discussion point in official BW discord servers, and the timing of all this was driven by the desire to get thoughts pre-Classic.

I've been very vocal on the subject of Gems. First and foremost, I really dislike Pokemon like Volcarona, Cloyster, and Breloom right now and would be open to tiering action on these instead, but I think the smarter decision is to act on Gems. Everyone has a different opinion on BW OU, some people want to outright ban Volcarona, others think Volcarona is a really key piece of the metagame and would prefer to ban Latios, Keldeo, Cloyster etc. Trying to actually carry out anyones vision for BW through Pokemon bans 1) may not even reach ban % because nobody agrees on what pokemon are broken 2) is gonna upset a huge swathe of people wishing we went in another direction 3) potentially destabilises an already precarious, broken-beats-broken metagame. Banning Gems over any individual Pokemon is effectively saying this- look, we're all kinda correct, instead of arguing over what pokemon to ban then doing nothing for another 6 months, lets remove this dumb af item they all use which nerfs a bunch of this shit in parallel. Its a solution that, anecdotally, seems to have more support than trying to fix the metagame through individual Pokemon bans.

An upside to targeting Gems over Pokemon is that it also keeps most of BW's identity intact - as an old gen I ideally don't want to re-invent the entire metagame right now and banning Gems over Volcarona/Cloyster/whatever else lets us keep the key traits those Pokemon have as sand punishers without making them like, autowin/match-up monsters. That doesn't fall within tiering policy, but I understand the people who are hesitant to ban Volc because they think its naturally good MU into PsySpikes is an overall positive for the metagame.

Risk vs Reward of Gems is messed up:
I think the underlying mechanic of Gems is outright flawed, abusable and an unhealthy presence in BW OU. At their core I think the risk vs reward is flawed when comparing them to every other remotely similar item choice and I'm not surprised they are the go-to offensive item for many of the tier's premier set-up sweepers:
  • Miracle Seed, Spell Tag etc - Single type, +20% boost
  • Expert Belt - Super-effective hits, +20% boost
  • Life Orb - All types, 10% recoil, +30% boost
  • Choice Band/Specs - Move lock, +50% boost
  • Gems - Single use item for single type, +50% boost

I don't feel like there's sufficient trade-off in the mechanics Gems for them to be balanced on, like, anything with decent offensive stats. 50% boost with the ability to combine with stat boosts accelerates damage output incredibly quickly; +2 Cloyster effectively becomes +4 damage output including Gem and so on. This is enough for these Pokemon to be OHKOing almost all neutral targets in the game after a single turn of set-up, even if running their best case scenario, maximum defensive spreads (Gem Cloyster Icicle Spear has a 93% chance to OHKO max/max Ferrothorn after rocks). When you have that level of damage output, being a single use item is hardly a drawback as the likelihood of actually needing two back to back Gem powered attacks is low - only a fraction of teams are running multiples of Pokemon that go toe-to-toe with Volc, Cloy, Breloom, Latios' uncontested STAB moves. Life Orb by comparison is a remarkably well balanced item, giving a good buff but 10% recoil being a huge drawback especially in a metagame with perma-sand, and almost all Gem users would be significantly nerfed should they need to use Life Orb in BW.


Gems + neutral coverage:
I don't feel like we need to go into the power of STAB Gems too much - other people can cover the crazy Bug Gem Volc / Dragon Gem Latios / Breloom / Ice Gem Cloyster calcs if they desire but we all know these are OHKOing huge portions of the tier including a handful of OK resists following set-up. Cloyster donking Keldeo+Magnezone, Breloom removing even PDef Skarm/Gliscor and so on, Volcarona deleting even the most pacifistic max SDef Careful Tyranitar sets with only SR. Yep.

I think the influence of Gems on neutral coverage moves isn't spoken about enough, however. When it comes to Gems, you end up with a metagame where you can single out specific counters you want to overcome and do so even with just neutral, unSTABed attacks. If a threat has a set-up move, decently strong neutral attack with the corresponding Gem, your counter is already quite flimsy and this is for literally neutral unSTABed moves.

Psychic Gem Volcarona doesn't give a shit about many of Rain's premier Bug Gem Volcarona checks with neutral unSTABed Psychic:
+1 252 SpA Psychic Gem Volcarona Psychic vs. 104 HP / 4 SpD Thundurus-Therian: 272-320 (83.6 - 98.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 SpA Psychic Gem Volcarona Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tornadus: 272-321 (90.9 - 107.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 SpA Psychic Gem Volcarona Psychic vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Dragonite: 226-267 (69.7 - 82.4%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 SpA Psychic Gem Volcarona Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados: 226-267 (68.2 - 80.6%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Psychic Gem Volcarona therefore becomes an incredible MU pick into Rain.

Rock Gem Cloyster can power through Max HP Heatran, and Max/Max Bold Politoed /Jellicent / Rotom-W with neutral unSTABed Rock Blast:
+2 252+ Atk Rock Gem Cloyster Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Heatran: 340-405 (88 - 104.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Rock Gem Cloyster Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Politoed: 310-370 (80.7 - 96.3%) -- approx. 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Rock Gem Cloyster Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Jellicent: 325-385 (80.6 - 95.5%) -- approx. 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Rock Gem Cloyster Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-Wash: 250-295 (82.5 - 97.3%) -- approx. 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
In the case of Politoed, Jellicent, Rotom-W these max/max spreads already carry huge opportunity cost and even when you use them they have really bad odds to actually beat Cloyster, especially with its elevated crit chance.

Fighting Gem Landorus-T powers through Max/Max Impish Skarmory with neutral unSTABed Superpower:
+2 252+ Atk Fighting Gem Landorus-Therian Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 264-311 (79 - 93.1%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Fighting Gem Landorus-Therian Superpower vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-Wash: 319-376 (105.2 - 124%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Fighting Gem Landorus-Therian Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gastrodon: 425-501 (99.7 - 117.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
As before- these are best case scenarios, opportunity cost of max/max Skarmory or Rotom-W are already high yet these best case scenario sets still get conked by neutral Gem sets. PDef Skarm is outright bad rn but even choosing it to use it you're still in lure Lando range.

Normal Gem Gyarados bops Rotom unless its literally at full with neutral unSTABed Return:
+1 252+ Atk Normal Gem Gyarados Return vs. 248 HP / 20+ Def Rotom-Wash: 225-265 (74.2 - 87.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Normal Gem Scizor baits and forces massive damage on Rain mons with a neutral unSTABed 40bp Atk:
+2 252+ Atk Normal Gem Technician Scizor Quick Attack vs. 104 HP / 144 Def Thundurus-Therian: 241-284 (74.1 - 87.3%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Normal Gem Technician Scizor Quick Attack vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 237-279 (73.1 - 86.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Normal Gem Technician Scizor Quick Attack vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tentacruel: 306-360 (84 - 98.9%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Outdated example but Finchinator used Dragon Gem Bisharp in Baton Pass meta to beat Keldeo with neutral unSTABed Dual Chop of all things:
+2 252+ Atk Dragon Gem Bisharp Dual Chop (2 hits) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 306-362 (94.4 - 111.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

The ability to design crazy lure sets in BW is fun as hell but I cannot deem it a healthy part of the game. Luring is obviously a big part of Pokemon but is it really OK to literally be OHKOing some of your best answers with neutral moves with only SR support? We've even seen Normal Gem Hyper Beam Magnezone to lure Gastrodon lmao. I don't think Pokemon is naturally balanced for this kind of, "add 50% to high base power neutral moves as a way to breeze past your STAB resists" design in mind. Introduces large amounts of variance imo too.

Multiple Gems per team:
What maybe pushes Gems over the line though is the fact you can, and often do, use multiple of them on a team. 2-3 Gems is standard fare on weatherless offenses whilst 4 isn't unheard of on things like Aerodactyl / Volcarona / Cloyster / Breloom / Latios / Scizor teams. This amount of firepower is absurd and enables Pokemon to not only wallbreak for eachother with neutral attacks, but also just by forcing teams to sac resources several times a game. I am unsurprised that Gems were removed from subsequent generations and that their later iteration - Z-moves - were implemented with a 1 per team mechanic.

There are lots of crazy mons in BW and a common theme amongst them is the use of Gems - targeting Gems at this stage seems like an efficient solution to some of BW's issues without undergoing a complete metagame reinvention, multiple pokemon bans, or long periods of doing nothing whilst we squabble over which of Volc or Cloy is more busted. I'm open to acting on those Pokemon but it feels like missing the wood for the trees to me could end up having to remove a handful of mons for the sake of preserving what is, to me, a poorly thought out item design for singles.

edit: limitation of 1 gem per team has also been suggested in the past but probably doesnt stretch far enough imo
 
Last edited:
I think volcarona is a clear outlier in terms of general potency as well as gem abuse. Other mons mentioned like loom cloy can be annoying but don’t feel like the same level of problematic right now. I think we can start out with smaller steps (volcarona ban or vote) and if the metagame is still widely distasteful we should then look at gems as a whole.

Removing gems has collateral like rock gem rak / fight gem lando and I think removing the larger offensive tool should be backup not primary.

I do support a volcarona ban at this time.
 

Lalaya

Be Your True Mind...
is a Social Media Contributoris a Forum Moderator
Moderator
Pretty much ^, because I don't feel Gems as a whole being extremely broken to the point that anyone can abuse them, where it's just some already insane Pokémon doing the job for them, and I don't want to kill the mechanic, removing all the other possibilities brought to other Pokémon in the metagame that benefit from Gems but aren't broken or unhealthy to face

and in general, I'm personally always on the fundamental thought that the things you should first deal with are the Pokémon themselves, unless there's a CLEAR reason to preserve the Pokémon and ban the ability/item that goes on more than just one Pokémon, and I don't think Gems fit in that criteria
(not to mention the age old topic on BW's tiering, but I digress)
 

Luigi

http://spo.ink/shadowtag
is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Tournament Director Alumnusis a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis the Smogon Tour Season 27 Championis a Past SPL Champion
Moderator
i definitely agree that banning volcarona is desirable over banning gems for the reasons outlined above, but i’d like to also suggest a different method to indirectly limit the power of HO: freeing chlorophyll and the shitty sand rushers (stourland and sandslash)

now obviously this would have more effects than just punishing HO but i personally think those are desirable too, it brings weather wars back to the forefront of the tier, makes sun more viable which increases tier variety, adds more speed control, adds a semi-viable spinner to the tier, to name a few that come to mind immediately.

and can you really make the argument that venusaur with no dugtrio and no sleep powder is broken? or that stoutland is broken?
 

johnnyg2

is a Site Content Manageris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributor
Moderator
Wading into the fray here. I come from someone who isn't historically involved in bw ou, but has been playing it over the years/ramping up more recently prepping for classic. I feel as the above posts arguing against banning gems are a bit misguided and don't fully capture how gems can warp the metagame both in the builder and ingame. I personally find them not just annoying, but also the ability to get a one time choice boost on literally any mon with no drawbacks is gamebreaking and is part of what makes this tier so frustrating to build.

It's not just Volcarona. It's Breloom being able to break through either its grass-neutral checks with grass gem or just checks in general with a super charged fighting gem boosted stab with no way to differentiate at team preview, and then switch moves afterwards. It's Ice/Rock gem cloyster being a menace bc if you sequence wrong, you instantly lose the game or become so weakened that another sweeper can clean up.

Gems not only make it difficult to prepare for some threats that can potentially break through their counters with the extra boost, it also makes piloting a headache. Should I switch my tyranitar out of volcarona in case its bug gem, then switch back to hopefully twave/rock slide it now that it has a weakened bug buzz? What if they read it and qd again? Or should I stay and hope its psychic gem? I know some players don't like the term 50/50s, but the reason why these choices are so painful is because if you guess wrong, the game can just instantly end, to an extent not seen in other metas. And this is just Volcarona! Often, it's not like you just include a better check, because this tier has so many powerful play styles, you become weak to other things (ie including like heatran into your sand balances and missing out on something like latios, forcing you to run an additional anti rain mon), making teambuilding a throwing yourself at the wall exercise or admitting you're fishing against a particular threat.

I've gathered three recent high-level replays since spl13 in callous's crew challenge and ROAPL. (there are plenty of examples in spl but wanted to get the most fresh stuff)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen5ou-628378 -- blunder has an awful matchup and has to play almost perfectly to avoid being swept by cloy/volc/dnite. He is able to maneuver around the volc, but the key turn is turn 17. Blunder is forced into a 50/50 -- does he let cloy ice gem boosted spear his phys def gastro (which is at 90% and should wall both dnite and cloy) to clear smog the cloy and then lose to dnite, or does he switch (or recover w gastro) to burn the ice gem and let it shell smash to lose the game. He guesses wrong, switches to tar, cloy shell smashes, game over. Without the gem, gastro comfortably lives even lo spear and +0 outrage and can easily clear smog.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen5ou-628238 -- We now have a rain team teched for ho from finch vs an HO. The key turns are t5 and t17. Airfare is able to remove the excadril as it spins w scizor and starmie comes in to eliminate it with water gem boosted hydro pump outside of rain, and then can't be taken advantage of bc its not locked. The one turn choice boost on hydro helped significantly to remove scizor while not opening up the rest of finch's team. In the last turn, cloy is the last pkmn behind a light screen. Finch's poli goes for encore while airfare tries to shell smash. If airfare had the correct set (Ice shard + rock gem boosted rock blast), they could have potentially been able to win with either a crit or a draco miss.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen5ou-619593 To show that it isnt just cloyster, here's another one. Mistakes were made from both players in this game, but dark gem allows Weavile to break through forre without having to use lo and can save its health to take more hits. Weavile breaks through forre and sweeps the rest of the team.

I don't even think we've scratched the surface as a playerbase for what could use gems. There are a million more applications, even classic ones like rock gem terrak to break through gliscor, fighting gem lando-t for skarm, dragon gem + cm latios for ttar, ice gem thundy-t for latios that get that power boost, there are many others. They don't instantly end the game in a flashy way like volc/cloy can, but still operate in the same way: use this extra power to break through a wall. I hope this write-up convinces people to at least look at gems first outside of what they do with volcarona. If we first ban gems and volc is still broken, we can ban it. If more bans are needed, we can do them. I just think the time is now to act, or else this tier I feel will continue to get the bad wrap it already does.

Thank you for reading!
 
Last edited:

M Dragon

The north wind
is a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Top Tutor Alumnusis a Tournament Director Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnusis the Smogon Tour Season 17 Championis a Past SPL Champion
I think volcarona is a clear outlier in terms of general potency as well as gem abuse. Other mons mentioned like loom cloy can be annoying but don’t feel like the same level of problematic right now. I think we can start out with smaller steps (volcarona ban or vote) and if the metagame is still widely distasteful we should then look at gems as a whole.

Removing gems has collateral like rock gem rak / fight gem lando and I think removing the larger offensive tool should be backup not primary.

I do support a volcarona ban at this time.
If Volcarona was the problem we would have done something about years ago, it has always been used and its in fact part of one of the most famous BW teams, and it has always used the gem.
If gems are now broken (in my opinion) it is because the "new discovery" that in BW every attack of a multi strike attack (like icicle spear) is boosted by the gem, and that makes pokemons like Cloyster or Breloom too powerful. johny posted 3 great example replays of this.

Really, you can discuss that Volcarona with a gem is possibly broken, but it is the least of the problems with gems.
 

Finchinator

Harry's House
is a Tournament Directoris a Top Social Media Contributoris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Live Chat Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Top Smogon Media Contributoris a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnusis a Past WCoP Championis a former Tournament Circuit Champion
OU & NU Leader
Regarding gems,

I feel that gems make multiple Pokemon problematic in BW OU right now.

Volcarona can handpick its own counters aside from the rare Chansey/Blissey. Cloyster can largely do the same outside of healthy Keldeo or Magnezone as Ice Gem and Rock Gem have both established themselves as great options. When trying to build for SPL and other tours, I felt very restricted by both in a tier that is already quite limiting. Personally I was ok with this since I was happy taking a proactive approach and even try these things out myself, but one cannot deny that it warps the metagame and eliminates some options.

If it were not for the discovery of gems impacting each hit of multi-hit moves, then I would likely be advocating just for a ban of Volcarona and I do not know that this topic would exist, but that is not the case. On top of Cloyster, Breloom has become a force with both Fighting Gem and Grass Gem. I do not find it broken standalone, but I find it to be great at opening the door when paired with very strong teammates, which is what we see a lot on HO teams.

Obviously there has been a bit of a revolution of hard offense taking novel forms and making the tier harder to manage and banning gems may not be a "full" solution, but it directly contributes to multiple Pokemon being broken and creates a guessing game against things like Breloom on offense, Latios on Rain, and so on.

I would support a ban on gems right now, but I think any ban should be met with another public vote down the line like other major old generation tiering decisions. If this is not on the table, I believe both Volcarona and Cloyster warrant bans as individual Pokemon, but I prefer focusing on gems.

Regarding process,

I think old generation tiering needs a more concrete framework on when a PR thread is appropriate, when a 'public' (qualified) vote is appropriate, when a council vote is appropriate, and so on. It is clear there is a disparity in expectations between different people. I believe that some of the issues stem from my own communication and expectations, too, and I hope to help bridge the gap and reach a point where we are all confident and happy with the process.
 

Bughouse

Like ships in the night, you're passing me by
is a Site Content Manageris a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
Recently when discussing the topic of King's Rock in BW, which was only broken on Cloyster, numerous people myself included said why not just ban Cloyster since it is the only viable user. The response was no, no you silly gooses Cloyster is still super interesting, useful, and healthy as a sweeper with Ice Gem. Now here we are just less than a year later and opinion has seemingly totally flipped and Ice Gem Cloyster is a problem too (seemingly the biggest one out of all Gem users)?
 

Finchinator

Harry's House
is a Tournament Directoris a Top Social Media Contributoris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Live Chat Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Top Smogon Media Contributoris a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnusis a Past WCoP Championis a former Tournament Circuit Champion
OU & NU Leader
Now here we are just less than a year later and opinion has seemingly totally flipped and Ice Gem Cloyster is a problem too (seemingly the biggest one out of all Gem users)?
Now here we are just less than a year later and...you still are posting about tiers you do not know very well. Here's a history lesson from someone who frequents the metagame.

At the point in time you are alluding to, Ice Gem Cloyster was hardly used. A lot of the tier was still adapting to the discovery about gems impacting every hit and nobody was worried about it being broken with anything besides King's Rock yet. People thought it would still be viable, but the metagame was multiple cycles away from hitting the point it is at now.

Ice Gem Cloyster then took off with the King's Rock ban and more HO teams popping up; it was quite good. However, Ice Gem Cloyster standalone is probably not something I would call broken. I would say it is good, but support reliant.

The fact that it can run Rock Gem as an alternative is what pushed it over. Rock Gem Rock Blast allows you to hit Politoed, Rotom-Wash, Heatran, Jellicent, Scizor, Milotic, and PDef invested Tentacruel, which is what pushed it over the top.

Before (Rock Gem gained usage) you had a set group of common Pokemon that could check Cloyster if they remained healthy. Before you knew exactly what Cloyster was doing and could map out counterplay. Before you could use a single slot as a Cloyster check that would be multipurposed for numerous other reasons as well. This is no longer the case.
 

Le Don

The Don Cossacks Ataman
is a Pre-Contributor
Gems are dumb. A lot of pokemons became strong thanks to them ( :Weavile: etc ) or even more broken ( :Volcarona: ). Johnnyg2 replays are very good exemples.

We already talked about :Volcarona: / :Cloyster: / :Breloom: / :Latios:, the main gem abusers so let's talk about the other gems abusers.

Some pokemons that I like a lot :

- :Thundurus-Therian: ( :Ice Gem: with Agility, this set 6-0 Classic Smurf with rocks up )
- :Dragonite: ( :Dragon Gem: )
- :Landorus-Therian: ( :Fighting Gem: or :Normal Gem: with Explosion )

All the Gems users that I have seen in high level games or that I have in my builder :

:Dark Gem: :Weavile: / :Bisharp: Beat Up + Gem is stupid, Sucker + Gem is good.
:Water Gem: :Politoed: / :Starmie: / :Garchomp: Hydro Pump + Rain + Gem hits sooooooo hard, Aqua Tail + Rain + Gem destroys Skarmory
:Fighting Gem: :Keldeo: / :Toxicroak: CM Keldeo / SD Cross Chop Toxicroak ( from Peng )
:Rock Gem: :Landorus-Therian: / :Terrakion: SD + Stone Edge goes brrr brrr
:Steel Gem: :Scizor: TDK used it and it destroyed Crucify for the BW GC
:Ice Gem: :Terrakion: it's for Landorus and Gliscor, you need a lot of SpA ( it's from Eden iirc )
:Flying Gem: :Scizor: / :Volcarona: very rare sets, bad imo
:Psychic Gem: :Volcarona: owns Tentacruel / Jellicent
:Dragon Gem: :Garchomp: / :Salamence: destroys something with Outrage
:Normal Gem: :Lucario:+ :Dragonite: / :Gyarados: / :Scizor: Extreme Speed now has a chance to kill Keldeo ( 50% with Lucario ) / Mamoswine ( 81,3% with Lucario ) / Latios ( OHKO with Dragonite and Lucario ) after Stealth Rock and more stuff with Spikes, Gyarados destroys Rotom with Return or Double Edge and Quick Attack has now chances to kill ( as Peng said ) Thundurus-T, Keldeo and Tentacruel

Ok it adds a lot of diversity but is that good diversity ? I don't think so. Allowing some pokemons to OHKO their checks is incredibly stupid, it looks like Z moves.

Imo the good plan is : Ban gems then ban Volcarona and suspect/ban other stuff OR ban Volcarona then ban gems then suspect/ban other stuff.

Thank you for reading.
 
Last edited:

peng

fuck xatu
is a Community Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnus
posting on behalf of user: Monai

I feel as though some players don’t quite grasp the absurdity of Gems. The cited examples of Gem Volcarona, Cloyster, Landot, Breloom, Latios, Etc. are things some people know and think the tier is better with, but I will try and list some other lesser known yet equally devastating calcs that Gems enable.

Water Gem Keldeo is a horrific wallbreaker that many Rain and Wless teams can employ. The answers to Keldeo in Rain are already pretty limited due to its STABS and speed, but overcoming even those through sheer power is blatantly stupid.
+1 252 SpA Water Gem Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latios in Rain: 301-355 (100 - 117.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(Latios is incapable of OHKOing back without either Psyshock or Specs Thunder, neither of which are on all Latios sets or even guaranteed rolls.)
+2 252 SpA Water Gem Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tentacruel in Rain: 375-441 (103 - 121.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 SpA Water Gem Keldeo Hydro Pump v+s. 88 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados in Rain: 328-387 (92.9 - 109.6%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
+1 252 SpA Water Gem Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 56+ SpD Slowking in Rain: 261-308 (66.2 - 78.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
(Not an OHKO but like come on)
These are all very Specially bulky Water-resists, it’s not like I’m cherry picking common frailer ones like Starmie (which doesn’t KO with LO Thunder after a boost btw). Other Water-resists explode to coverage and are generally too passive to not lose the exchange like Seismitoad, Jellicent, Gastro, Toed, Etc..

To illustrate that this problem wouldn’t be solved by just banning Keldeo, like some players really want, I will provide a second example in Scizor. Gem Scizor isn’t exactly unheard of, and Life Orb is far more splashable, but Gems on Scizor allow one to overcome its checks in a very similar manner to Volcarona and Cloyster.

+2 252+ Atk Flying Gem Technician Scizor Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Jellicent: 532-626 (132 - 155.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Fighting Gem Scizor Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Skarmory: 322-379 (96.4 - 113.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Normal Gem Technician Scizor Quick Attack vs. 252 HP / 72 Def Tentacruel: 276-325 (75.8 - 89.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes
(On JelliSkarm teams)

I hope this provides some context for the current BW meta. It is not invalid, or even uncommon, for 3-4 Gems per team to force games to end in under 20 turns. It doesn’t matter if they’re one time use if you OHKO the one healthy Scizor check remaining.

TLDR; It isn’t just Volc and Cloy on HO, Gems on other styles completely destroy shared checks for many teams.
 
https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1Sifp9hYyMIYpNhbAHefR_4R9grshYiIeyK2-SbXisV8/viewanalytics
Screen Shot 2022-07-04 at 4.50.30 PM.png
Screen Shot 2022-07-04 at 4.50.46 PM.png

Here are the results of the BW tiering survey regarding the issue at hand. As seen from them, 76.7% of voters replied "Yes" to viewing either gems or the Pokémon that use them as problematic. When questioned if it would be preferable to target gems themselves or the Pokémon that use them, 60.9% of voters indicated that they'd rather target the items as a whole.

The survey results indicate that even though the community feels like there's a problem that needs to be addressed, they are split regarding the ideal way to solve it. In order to cover the array of possible solutions, the council has opted to conduct a runoff vote with the below 5 options:

1) Ban gems
2) Ban Volcarona and Cloyster
3) Ban Volcarona
4) Ban Cloyster
5) Ban nothing

For those of you who don't know how runoff works, voters will be ranking the 5 options based on their own personal preference. The option with least first choice votes gets eliminated, anybody who had that as first gets their first choice moved to their second highest, and repeat until only one option remains.

Here are the reasons why we opted into a runoff vote with the above options: 1) the community seemed to be divided on whether we should target gems or the problematic Pokémon themselves, and a runoff vote enables all options to be considered; 2) Volcarona and Cloyster were the only 2 Pokémon survey responders deemed problematic, which is why they're the only ones in the runoff.

Lastly, we have opted to not add a ladder component to this suspect mostly due to BW Cup's timeframe. We want to make sure that if action is to be taken, then it should be done as swiftly as possible in order to not drastically change the BW metagame mid-Classic. Additionally, there is a large enough pool of voters from tournament results, which makes a ladder component unnecessary.

With all that said, the final voter list will consist of all users who meet at least one of the following requirements:

1) 6+ games or 3+ wins in SPL
2) BW Cup VII top 8
3) Finals of Seasonals/Globals so far this year
4) Overall 2021 Circuit top 16

So the overall list is: dice, elodin, Finchinator, GaryTheGengar, SoulWind, crucify, gilbert arenas, watashi, Exiline, Monai, Dark Eeveon, august, frisoeva, Stareal, Feaniix, Sage, MTV BRATVA, Pohjis, TDK, Wait2Seconds, A Hero's Destiny, Goootzinho, Insult, toytean, Raichy, mushamu, Spl4sh.

The vote will end on sunday july 10th and results will be up immediately and applied starting round 2 of BW Cup VIII.

Cordially,

the burger.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 1)

Top