Pet Mod [Gen 1] Burgundy Version - Slate 6: Back to Basics

Ema Skye

Work!
It is a big day for the Burgers!

Winners!
View attachment 507619
Tyrannitar
Type: Rock/Dragon
Stats:
HP: 100
Attack 134
Defense: 95
Special: 100
Speed: 61
Notable Moves:
Crunch, Draco Meteor, Earthquake, Rock Slide, Hyper Beam, Fire Blast, Surf, Ice Beam, Body Slam, Substitute, Quick Attack, Leer, Rest
Crunch/Dragon/24 PP/80 Bp/100%/20% chance to lower the target's special by 1 stage
Role: Most comparable to Golem and Rhydon due to both being bulky Normal-resists. Tyranitar trades a 4x Water and Grass weakness for a much more impactful Dragon weakness as well as lacking an immunity to Thunder Wave and a weaker Earthquake than Rhydon due to lack of Ground STAB. Tyranitar trades that with a solid Dragon-type STAB option with both no drawbacks and a powerful secondary effect as well as a great movepool in general consisting of powerful options from both sides of the attacking spectrum. Unlike Rhydon and Golem it also can use a healing move in Rest which can make it very difficult to KO with Substitute. Overall it trades some solid staying and physical power for some VERY important traits.
:gs/kingdra:
Kingdra
HP: 75
ATK: 95
DEF: 95
SPD: 85
SPEC: 95
Moves: Inheritance from Seadra, Draco Meteor, Dragon Breath
Reasoning: Seadra has many good traits: Almost no weaknesses, solid all-around stats, a solid, unresisted, paralyzing STAB move, and a nuke in Draco Meteor. It doesn't completely outclass Starmie though, as Dragon Breath has fairly low base power and it cannot instantly Recover.
:Ninetales:
Name: Ninetales
Stats: Unchanged
Typing: Fire/Ghost
New Moves: Will-O-Wisp, Nightshade
Removed Moves: None

Signature Move Name: Will-O-Wisp
Type: Fire
BP: -
Acc: 85%
PP: 32
Effect: Burns the target

Will-o + fire spin allows it to chip its enemies while they receive burn damage, it's not faster than tauros, so it can't switch into a slam or hbeam and burn it, since it could tank an eq or be substitute fodder, but it manages to deal with things like plucks (which I just realised can't really touch this anymore)
:primarina:
Name: Primarina
Stats: 80 HP/74 Atk/74 Def/126 Spc/60 Spe
Typing: Water
New Moves: Sparkling Aria*
Removed Moves: Amnesia

Signature Move Name: Sparkling Aria
Type: Water
BP: 90
Acc: 100
PP: 16
Effect: Hits behind target's substitute, if any. [This adapts the sound move mechanic to RBY.]

Substitute has been a much maligned addition to the meta, with very minimal counterplay. Sparkling Aria exists as counterplay to Substitute users, being a decent option against the two biggest ones: Aerodactyl and Tauros. Primarina itself is a strong Water, with its Hydro Pump being the strongest special move in the game (beating Zapdos/Articuno's moves by 1 Spc).
:venomoth:
Name: Venomoth
Stats: HP 70, Attack 88 (+23), Defense 84 (+24), Special 90, Speed 90
Typing: Bug/Poison
New Moves: Sludge, Quiver Dance, Recover
Removed Moves:

Signature Move Name: Quiver Dance.
Type: Bug
BP:
Acc:
PP: 32
Effect: Raises Special and Speed one stage.

Like Parasect, Venomoth still has a very bad typing, however the Stats and movepool improve a lot. Sludge allows Venomoth to 4HKO Chansey, with a chance of poisoning it too. Quiver Dance makes Venomoth a very unique sweeper, especially if its combined with Recover. A well played Venomoth with Quiver Dance, Sludge/Sleep Powder, Psychic and Recover can win vs the whole meta. Key word here is well played, cause the Stats and Psychic weakness balance this Mon:
Alakazam Psychic vs. +1 Venomoth: 173-204 (50.4 - 59.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO < So, Alakazam paralyzes Venomoth and pretty much wins.

Snorlax Body Slam vs. Venomoth: 110-130 (32 - 37.9%) -- 95.6% chance to 3HKO < Better match-up, especially if Snorlax is asleep, but para still can ruin the moth.


+1 Venomoth Psychic vs. Aerodactyl: 114-135 (31.4 - 37.1%) -- 84.7% chance to 3HKO
Aerodactyl Rock Slide vs. Venomoth: 190-224 (55.3 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO < Counter right here.

+6 Venomoth Psychic vs. Starmie: 108-128 (33.4 - 39.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO < Another counter if it has TW + Psychic.

Dangerous as Venomoth is, it needs a lot of the meta to be removed, weakened or statused before attempting to sweep, since Poison typing hurts more than it helps, even with Sludge.
Yup, 5 winners! And that's not all - the winner for Burgillionaire has been selected!
Name: Jungle Healing
Type: Grass
Bp: ---
Acc: ---%
PP: 10 (16)
Effect: Heals the user by 25% of its max hp. Removes the user's status (Haze).
Distribution: :paras::parasect:Parasect, :tangela:Tangela, :bulbasaur::ivysaur::venusaur:Venusaur, :bellsprout::weepinbell::victreebel:Victreebel, :exeggcute: :exeggutor: Exeggutor
Description: Healing & Status curing is very cool and can be beneficial for pokemon that dislike getting statused.
This looks like a fairly impactful slate for the meta, so we'll have to see where things go from here.
 

Teh

the saint
is a Pre-Contributor
who thought it was a good idea to give ttar stab draco meteor AND twave??? literally nothing can switch into ttar without potentially getting btfo by crits
 

Ema Skye

Work!
aha I knew this day would come.

:tyranitar: NERF
-Dragon-type (now mono-Rock)
-Draco Meteor

Crunch: REWORK
+Rock-type
+20% chance to lower Def (instead of Special)

Draco Meteor: NERF
-10 BP (140 BP)

We knew this mon would be broken and we now have the data to support the size of nerf needed. This removes its most glaring issue: Draco Meteor + Twave, while repurposing Crunch to find new roles in the meta with the strongest (and most reliable) Rock STAB. Draco Meteor in general gets hit by the nerf bat as Dragonite is a little too good right now and we'll continue to adjust it as needed.

Tagging Yoshiblaze for implementation
 
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aha I knew this day would come.

:tyranitar: NERF
-Dragon-type (now mono-Rock)
-Draco Meteor

Crunch: REWORK
+Rock-type
+20% chance to lower Def (instead of Special)

Draco Meteor: NERF
-10 BP (140 BP)

We knew this mon would be broken and we now have the data to support the size of nerf needed. This removes its most glaring issue: Draco Meteor + Twave, while repurposing Crunch to find new roles in the meta with the strongest (and most reliable) Rock STAB. Draco Meteor in general gets hit by the nerf bat as Dragonite is a little too good right now and we'll continue to adjust it as needed.

Tagging Yoshiblaze for implementation
Could we perhaps nerf Draco Meteor to 160 or 140 base power if Dragonite's tomfoolery keeps up?
 
I don't mind the changes, a mono rock type is still unique all things considered, no Ice weakness, no quad Water and Grass weaknesses, and you keep the Normal resistance, so it might be good competition to Rhydon, what do you think
 

Ema Skye

Work!
And another balance update

Focus Energy is currently bugged and a fix has been made. However, the PMPL players believe the fix will make multiple mons broken and so Focus Energy will be banned until the tournament is over and we can make balance adjustments.
 
And another balance update

Focus Energy is currently bugged and a fix has been made. However, the PMPL players believe the fix will make multiple mons broken and so Focus Energy will be banned until the tournament is over and we can make balance adjustments.
How exactly is Focus Energy bugged?
 

Ema Skye

Work!
With a 4/7 majority, the players of pmpl have voted to ban Jungle Healing
Ban: Gastlies, TPP, Royzin, Tuthur
Do not Ban: Deezcastforms, Sabelette, Eshe0

With a 2/7 dissention, the players of pmpl have voted to not ban Tyranitar
Ban: Gastlies, Royzin
Do not Ban: Deezcastforms, TPP, Sabelette, Eshe0, Tuthur

Tagging Yoshiblaze to update the code. We will revisit Jungle Healing and Exeggutor post tournament (Eggy will lose the move)

This is for week 4! Sorry for the confusion
 
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Ema Skye

Work!
Hey again!

We are about 2 weeks away from wrapping up PMPL, which means the mod is in a position to start opening up again. I think it's no secret that the mod has had a tumultuous presence in the tournament, and so we are looking at where to go post-PMPL before submissions start up again.

We're going to start just by opening up a forum on where to start in making balance adjustments for the mod. There are two big elephants in the room: Tyranitar and Jungle Healing, but there is also a lot of other stuff that has been brought up in the Discord that I want to ensure gets the attention it deserves.

In the interest of transparency, the current adjustments being proposed by council are as follows:
Code:
Machamp: 80 Spe -> 60 Spe 
Armaldo: -Rock Slide, -Earthquake 
Plucks: -10 Atk, +10 HP, -Focus Punch, -Barrier, -Twineedle, -Low Kick, -Thunder Punch, -Quick Attack 
Talonflame: -Drill Peck, -5 SpA 
Exeggutor: -Jungle Healing 
Tyranitar: -Thunder Wave

Focus Energy: 2x crit rate instead of 4x 
Crunch: 80 --> 65BP

Sleep: normal RBY sleep 
Crits: Stadium crit rates
The pattern with a lot of these proposed nerfs address the barrage of physical attackers in the meta simply because the meta can't handle all of them simultaneously due to the lack of a strong physically defensive mon that also isn't a physically offensive threat.

Use these points as a starting point for discussion (none are set in stone yet), but also discuss what else might be missing from this list, if the list goes too far or not enough. There is a lot of interest in both preserving base RBY interactions as well as opening the mod away from base RBY, and so having this discussion should be beneficial in determining the direction of the mod. Ideally we can meet in the middle to satisfy everyone.

We'll leave the thread open for another week or so before we jump into our first post PMPL slate.
 
Hey again!

We are about 2 weeks away from wrapping up PMPL, which means the mod is in a position to start opening up again. I think it's no secret that the mod has had a tumultuous presence in the tournament, and so we are looking at where to go post-PMPL before submissions start up again.

We're going to start just by opening up a forum on where to start in making balance adjustments for the mod. There are two big elephants in the room: Tyranitar and Jungle Healing, but there is also a lot of other stuff that has been brought up in the Discord that I want to ensure gets the attention it deserves.

In the interest of transparency, the current adjustments being proposed by council are as follows:
Code:
Machamp: 80 Spe -> 60 Spe
Armaldo: -Rock Slide, -Earthquake
Plucks: -10 Atk, +10 HP, -Focus Punch, -Barrier, -Twineedle, -Low Kick, -Thunder Punch, -Quick Attack
Talonflame: -Drill Peck, -5 SpA
Exeggutor: -Jungle Healing
Tyranitar: -Thunder Wave

Focus Energy: 2x crit rate instead of 4x
Crunch: 80 --> 65BP

Sleep: normal RBY sleep
Crits: Stadium crit rates
The pattern with a lot of these proposed nerfs address the barrage of physical attackers in the meta simply because the meta can't handle all of them simultaneously due to the lack of a strong physically defensive mon that also isn't a physically offensive threat.

Use these points as a starting point for discussion (none are set in stone yet), but also discuss what else might be missing from this list, if the list goes too far or not enough. There is a lot of interest in both preserving base RBY interactions as well as opening the mod away from base RBY, and so having this discussion should be beneficial in determining the direction of the mod. Ideally we can meet in the middle to satisfy everyone.

We'll leave the thread open for another week or so before we jump into our first post PMPL slate.
Any reasoning Crunch is 65 BP, its only 5 BP stronger than Rock Slide and doesn't have a guaranteed secondary effect, sure it's more accurate but I don't know if it should be nerfed so hard.
 

gastlies

thunder only happens when it's raining
is a Forum Moderator
I expressed my thoughts with the council already, I'll make them public here

Machamp: machamp is mid to begin with so idt this is nessecary
Armaldo: Remove RS, keep EQ imo
Plucks: I like this, but you can keep twineedle
Talonflame: Unessecary
Exeggutor: Please yes
Ttar: I like this
Focus Energy: I like this
Crunch: I like this
Sleep: I like this
Crits: Do either this or focus energy nerf, not both
 
Machamp: Agree with Gastlies. People always react when they see the stats, but Champ is still just okay
Armaldo: I've seen this thing exactly once, and it didn't click either of these moves, so no comment.
Plucks: Again I agree with Gastlies, leave Twineedle, anything else is fine
Talonflame: I'd buff it if anything. Nerf would just be kicking it when it already sees next to 0 usage
Egg: Don't think JH is as broken as it is annoying, but I'm still fine with getting rid of it for like, Refresh or something.
Tar: Fine with this
Focus Energy: Okay with this
Crunch: Not okay with this. For as long as this was talked about in Discord, the plan was to remove the Def drop chance and leave everything else as is. I don't know why you decided to change to this, but it's a bad change imo. Tar should be able to keep a slightly but still objectively better version of Rock Slide as its "Signature Move," since that was the slate it was from iirc.
Sleep: Probably fine
Crits: Would rather leave it as is
 
I also have a change not mentioned here that I would like to discuss. When I played my set vs Eshe0 for PMPL, I noticed that on paper, Abomasnow looks like it has unique tools that allow it to do well into parts of the meta that other Pokemon couldn't cover on their own, but in practice, the thing just isn't strong enough to actually do the things it wants to accomplish. So I propose a +10 buff to its Attack, a +5 buff to its Special, and access to Wood Hammer as a Signature Move. 120BP Grass-type move with recoil as a possible alternate Grass STAB. It's slightly stronger after a Razor Leaf crit, and has the chance to crit itself for a huge damage buff, but does recoil to Abomasnow in return as compensation.
 
I also have a change not mentioned here that I would like to discuss. When I played my set vs Eshe0 for PMPL, I noticed that on paper, Abomasnow looks like it has unique tools that allow it to do well into parts of the meta that other Pokemon couldn't cover on their own, but in practice, the thing just isn't strong enough to actually do the things it wants to accomplish. So I propose a +10 buff to its Attack, a +5 buff to its Special, and access to Wood Hammer as a Signature Move. 120BP Grass-type move with recoil as a possible alternate Grass STAB. It's slightly stronger after a Razor Leaf crit, and has the chance to crit itself for a huge damage buff, but does recoil to Abomasnow in return as compensation.
I actually submitted wood hammer as a move now since it has synergy with growth and we have stadium recoil, that could be a thing it does whenever the latter gets fixed
 
Ok, I'll go a bit more in depth of what every nerf does to each pokemon

Machamp: It doesn't speed tie Dragonite and Venusaur anymore; it is now slower than Blastoise, Kingler, Cloyster, Victreebel, Onix, Poliwrath, Hypno, Flareon, Vaporeon and Tyranitar; and it now speed ties Abomasnow, Lapras and Primarina. I feel this is meant to be more of a crit nerf, but I don't see how this changes the mon since it relies on paralysis support and has glare. Some people have experimented bringing in non-focus punch sets and rely a bit on coverage to punish and slowly chip switch-ins. I feel like this is unnecessary.

Armaldo: Now it's only physical moves are hbeam, slash, dedge and low kick, let the thing keep something.

Plucks: I don't dislike this, but having twinneedle is literally only useful to hit gengar and to smack eggy, so it comes down to sunning submission or low kick and maybe mono-normal coverage. I think it's fine if it keeps it. I am sad for the fpunch removal, but that's literally just me.

Talonflame: Only fine cause hyperbeam outdamages it, but the crit changes make this weird and I'll cover that later.

Eggy: I don't think jungle healing was ever an issue, and now that sleep won't be dead it will have big 4mss if it choses to run it.

Tyranitar: Fair, it can not relyably paralyse anymore, but doesn't address the issue that, for the most part, it outclasses Rhydon, this is fine if we are going for any of the ideas that have been propose to add a more viable ground type.

Crunch: Fair, it can abuse defense drops regardless, and in comparison rock slide is 67.5 base power on average, I still think crunch will be the better option.

Normal rby sleep: Please do, but I really liked the idea of adding a custom status move, I am guessing that is not being entertained anymore after this.

Now the thing with crits:
(I will use Jolteon as a benchmark example as it is the fastest focus energy user)

Originaly the idea was just to fix focus energy to work properly, Jolteon with ou mechanics has 25.39% crit rate, if the bugfix had been properly implemented it would have had over 100% crit rate up to now.

Since the bug was discovered, many ideas were thrown around, the two main ones were to change both crit and focus energy to stadium or to keep ou crit rates and have fe x2 crit rate instead of x4ing it.

If the first one had been implemented Jolteon would have 20.11% crit rate before focus energy and 80.44% after focus energy, being able to, for the most part, be pretty consistent in landing critical hits. If Jolteon instead attacks twice, the chance to crit once is 36.18%.

If the second idea had been implemented, Jolt would have kept its 25.39% crit and would have had 50.79% after fe, making it a bit more reasonable if we are assuming double kick in this set. If jolt had attacked twice, there was a 44.34% chance to land a crit. Again, this is Jolteon, this is the fastest focus energy user and other fe mons would have not even attempted to run this.

With the current implementation, Jolt has base 20.11% crit rate before focus energy and 40.22% after focus energy, if jolt had clicked a damaging move twice, there was a 36.18% chance to land a crit, not accounting for the damage from non-crits and additional hax on tbolt.

With the current implementation it is questionable at best if focus energy might find any use, this is a middle ground that basically forces in stadium crits while forcing focus energy out, working as a general crit nerf, again, this is taking into consideration only jolteon and not any other mon that might run it (out of the new mons ttar, plucks and talonflame get the move, out of the old buffed mons beedrill, machamp and flareon get the move and the only tradebacks focus energy user is kanga, everyone else is nidos, primeape, scyther, raticate and vaporeon).

Notably, focus energy is the only thing talonflame has going for it, machamp could work with it (it can hypothetically run fe submission with stadium recoil), flareon would enjoy it, such as vaporeon, and it's be an interesting addition to kanga, primeape will most likely not exist one way or another, everyone else gets swords dance but get this as a sidegrade to potentially deal with reflect.

In conclusion, this is just trying to reduce crits in general and in a very unintuitive way, if this is the final veredict I'd prefer to keep a bugged focus energy and old crits or go full stadium cause it's the only way out of these in which the move is being useful at all.
 
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Sabelette

from the river to the sea
is a Site Content Manageris a Community Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnus
These changes are major overreactions, nerf things much more slowly instead of in massive jumps like this (also half are flat unnecessary). I think this mod just isn’t for me with all the influence from non RBY players and people who don’t even bother to play it after submitting, so I’ll refrain from detailed commentary, but I do have a background in balancing an actual commercial game and I’d never nerf this many things this hard all at once.
 
I want to put one out, as the creator of Tyranitar I elect maybe removing the Ice converage of Tyranitar would be a worthwhile nerf to it. Blizzard is a very powerful move on Tyranitar due to its ability to counter the grass and ground types used to counter its Rock typing, if you remove it you'll force it to run Fire Blast, a far worse move coverage wise, this means that Grass and Grounds will be able to propely counter T Tar.

Let me elaborate, without Ice moves, T Tar has to run either Hydro Pump or Fire Blast for it's forth slot, in theory using Hydro Pump will get you walled by Grass types like Exeggutor while using Fire Blast will get you walled by Rhydon, so it's a bit of a Zapdos situation. If we implement that rework Tyranitar won't be dominant but will still be a viable option to use in game.
 
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Sabelette

from the river to the sea
is a Site Content Manageris a Community Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnus
I want to put one out, as the creator of Tyranitar I elect maybe removing the Ice converage of Tyranitar would be a worthwhile nerf to it. Blizzard is a very powerful move on Tyranitar due to its ability to counter the grass and ground types used to counter its Rock typing, if you remove it you'll force it to run Fire Blast, a far worse move coverage wise, this means that Grass and Grounds will be able to propely counter T Tar.

Let me elaborate, without Ice moves, T Tar has to run either Hydro Pump or Fire Blast for it's forth slot, in theory using Hydro Pump will get you walled by Grass types like Exeggutor while using Fire Blast will get you walled by Rhydon, so it's a bit of a Zapdos situation. If we implement that rework Tyranitar won't be dominant but will still be a viable option to use in game.
Nobody uses any of these moves because Crunch EQ Twave is all the coverage it needs, and it’s not walled by Eggy or Rhydon
 

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