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Pet Mod [Gen 1] Rose Red/Iris Blue (Tournament: July 10th)


Hello there, and welcome to the World of Pokemon! I'm Kurai, a big Gen 1 enthusiast!
For some people, their journey through Kanto was a nostalgic time. Others still compete in it. As for myself... I study the generation as a hobby.

Once, there was a time where people felt that everything about the Kanto region had been studied to wits' end. However...
Time has passed. Pokemon in the Kanto region have adapted to better fare against their surroundings, truly a phenomenon never seen before!
There is much to learn, and still many mysteries to solve. You'll face fun times, and tough challenges. A world of possibilities awaits...

... now, what did you say your name was again?

Approved by G-Luke and Ludicrousity

RRIB.png

Join the dedicated Rose Red/Iris Blue discord for live discussion, chilling with others, and getting into the heat of battle!

What is Rose Red/Iris Blue?

With the title a symbolism of an old generation budding anew, RRIB aims to make EVERY fully evolved Gen 1 Pokemon viable in the OU metagame.
Whether it be through slightly buffing stats, a small movepool addition, restoring a learned move from a future generation, or the very rare revamp...
the idea is to keep near every Pokemon's identity and playstyle intact while making it a suitable pick for competitive play!

Rules

Mechanics:
  • Gen 1 mechanics
  • Modernized type chart:
    • Ghost is super-effective against psychic
    • Ice is not very effective against fire
    • Bug is not very effective against poison
    • Poison is neutral against bug
  • 1/256 miss rate on all moves is gone
  • Recovery moves don’t fail at specific hp numbers
  • Sleep is 5 turns max
  • Freeze now acts as a 5-turn max sleep, with equivalent “wakeup” chances to sleep
  • Team Preview
Clauses: Gen 1 OU clauses, Team Preview
Bans
: None!
Unbans: Mewtwo, Mew (both have been nerfed to OU viability)

Strategy

The first generation of Pokemon is a very naturally bulky offensive metagame, with even the frailest of Pokemon being able to take a strong neutral hit if need be. Status is also incredibly important due to the lack of items and cleric moves, as well as status in general just being more punishing than 7th generation play. As a result, having good type synergy backed by a couple fast Pokemon and some good paralysis spread is the timeless but effective formula to a good Gen 1 team.

Alternatively, poison spread got a fantastic buff in the revamp of Dream Eater (a 180 bp Ghost move that works on sleeping or poisoned foes), alongside a plethora of strong abusers of this move. Whether you decide to spread paralysis or poison is up to you, build around their payoffs and you should find success.


Q&A

Q: How was [insert Pokemon] changed?
A: You can find ALL changes in the metagame document, including all changes made to the Pokemon.

Q: I feel [insert Pokemon] is too weak/strong, what do I do?
A: As long as you are constructive about things, feel free to post in this thread or on the metagame discord about the perceived strength/weakness of a Pokemon in the metagame. This is a pet mod after all, so there is the freedom to manually buff/nerf Pokemon to make a better metagame! As long as you keep in line with the metagame philosophy, suggestions to tweak Pokemon are really appreciated. Treat such posts like you're posting in the Overused Viability Rankings thread, as something serious that requires explanations and evidence if need be. Crying about something being "OP!!" is an ill-advised decision that will swiftly get ignored or deleted. Explaining that "I think X is too strong/weak because ... and here are some suggestions to tweak X" is fantastic and encouraged!

Q: I found a bug, what do I do?
A: Post it in this thread, or PM me on smogon/discord! I don't bite, just keep it civil.

Resources

- Playable and visualized at http://rose-red-iris-blue.herokuapp.com/
*This client connects to Dragon Heaven, where you can play RRIB but it won't be visualized unless you use this client above ^^^

- Dedicated damage calculator
- Metagame document contains all:
  • Mechanic changes
  • Move property changes
  • Pokemon stat/movepool/tying changes
  • Pokemon analyses
  • Sample sets
  • Speed tiers
  • Type-based compendia
Sample Replays

[1] Nidoking Bulky Offense vs Fearow Offense
[2] Scyther Bulky Offense vs Porygon Offense
[3] Double Psychic vs Pidgeot Bulky Offense
[4] Dragonite Offense vs Pinsir Para Spam
 
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Sample Teams & Cores

The metagame is very young, so the sample teams section may change frequently. but here are some teams to get you started if you're unsure of what to battle others with.
Alakazam
- Psychic
- Recover
- Thunder Wave
- Seismic Toss

Blastoise
- Hydro Pump
- Earthquake
- Blizzard
- Submission

Exeggutor
- Sleep Powder
- Psychic
- Explosion
- Stun Spore

Clefable
- Body Slam
- Hyper Beam
- Soft-Boiled
- Thunderbolt

Articuno
- Blizzard
- Whirlwind
- Agility
- Hyper Beam

Tauros
- Body Slam
- Hyper Beam
- Earthquake
- Thunderbolt
Scyther
- Swords Dance
- Twineedle
- Wing Attack
- Hyper Beam

Charizard
- Fire Blast
- Hyper Fang
- Earthquake
- Submission

Exeggutor
- Sleep Powder
- Psychic
- Explosion
- Stun Spore

Chansey
- Blizzard
- Soft-Boiled
- Thunder Wave
- Thunderbolt

Golem
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Explosion
- Rest

Starmie
- Psychic
- Thunderbolt
- Recover
- Thunder Wave
Alakazam
- Psychic
- Recover
- Thunder Wave
- Reflect

Mewtwo
- Psychic
- Blizzard
- Submission
- Self-Destruct

Moltres
- Fire Blast
- Fire Spin
- Agility
- Whirlwind

Parasect
- Spore
- Leech Life
- Slash
- Stun Spore

Blastoise
- Hydro Pump
- Earthquake
- Blizzard
- Submission

Electrode
- Thunderbolt
- Thunder Wave
- Hyper Beam
- Explosion

Offensive Cores
Defensive Cores
 
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Future-Generation Newcomers

In addition to balancing the original Kanto region for competitive play, Rose Red / Iris Blue seeks to gradually implement Pokemon from future generations into Gen 1 play! Each slate, we will be sharing ideas on what we could have two specified pokemon do in the Gen 1 metagame. After we finish sharing ideas, I will implement an version of this Pokemon into gen 1 and take the best parts of as many of your ideas as possible!

- We will have to design its stats, typing, and learnset with the rest of RRIB in mind.
- A newcomer's base learnset will be all of the RRIB-compatible moves that it learns, and then we can add or detract from there.
- Keep in mind to stay as close to the original Pokemon as possible. Changes need to be explained!
- Stay thematically accurate with the Pokemon based on how it generally plays.

Here are the Pokemon that are going to be implemented so far:

Pokemon: Ampharos
Typing:

Stats (HP/Atk/Def/Spc/Spe): 90/75/85/115/55
New Moves: Hyper Fang
Removed Moves: None

Explanation: To differentiate Ampharos from just being a boring mono-Electric type that is walled by most of the tier, Ampharos gains its mega typing and Hyper Fang, the equivalent of Draco Meteor but in RRIB. This makes Ampharos a slow but powerful special wallbreaker that has Twave support and useful typing with bulk. No other Electric type performs this unique combination of offensive utility and useful coverage, especially with a unique dual typing. Overall, Ampharos looks like it could be a really fun wallbreaker and add a fresh take on utilizing Electric types!

Sample Set:
Ampharos
- Thunderbolt
- Thunder Wave
- Hyper Fang
- Fire Punch

Pokemon: Forretress
Typing:

Stats (HP/Atk/Def/Spc/Spe): 75/90/140/60/40
New Moves: Mega Drain
Removed Moves: None

Explanation: Steel typing doesn't exist in Gen 1, so Rock typing thematically keeps the Normal resistance that Forretress has. Unique Bug/Rock typing means that Forretress is a Normal check that is among the sturdiest and most difficult to exploit, boasting a useful neutrality to Earthquake and very high physical bulk. With Mega Drain being added to its moveset to compensate for Giga Drain not existing in Gen 1, Forretress also has utility in luring the likes of GolDon for other teammates. Furthermore, access to Explosion means that it can trade with something that it may struggle to deal with. Even with poor special bulk, Forretress can still scare Psychic types with Bug STAB. Hard checking Normal types and scaring out Psychic types in one Pokemon may be an incredible niche in the Gen 1 metagame, and Forretress could bring an interesting dimension to defensive counterplay in RRIB!

Sample Set:
Forretress
Ability: none
- Pin Missile
- Rock Slide
- Explosion
- Mega Drain

Pokemon: Zangoose
Typing:

Stats (HP/Atk/Def/Spc/Spe): 73/100/60/60/80
New Moves: Submission
Removed Moves: None

Explanation: Zangoose enters RRIB to wreak havoc upon bulky competition. With Tauros-level offenses and a spammable Normal STAB that nearly hits as hard as Tauros' Hyper Beam, Zangoose clearly defines its role as a powerful wallbreaker. Powerful dual STAB makes Zangoose difficult to switch into properly, and it also offers some utility with Thunder Wave. However, Zangoose is frail and weak to common Flying and Psychic offensive typings. If played to its strengths however, Zangoose can eviscerate most defensive backbones and clear the way for a host of cleaners to win!

Sample Set:
Zangoose
- Slash
- Submission
- Thunder Wave
- Seismic Toss

Pokemon: Seviper
Typing:

Stats (HP/Atk/Def/Spc/Spe): 73/100/60/100/65
New Moves: Amnesia, Fire Blast, Mega Drain, Poison Sting, Thunderbolt
Removed Moves: None

Explanation: In future generations, Seviper is an unpredictable attacker that can use physical or special moves. This feel is maintained and upgraded in Rose Red / Iris Blue! Seviper uses its new Normal typing to abuse snake-like moves such as Wrap, Glare, and Constrict in tandem with Swords Dance, locking down its opponents to either eliminate directly or support an incoming teammate. Newfound access to Amnesia and more special coverage allows for Seviper to take a special sweeper route, or even a mixed sweeper if you feel like it. Trap your opponents or catch them off guard with this sneaky incarnation of Seviper!

Sample Set:
Seviper
- Swords Dance
- Wrap / Constrict
- Poison Sting
- Earthquake

Pokemon: Gogoat
Typing:

Stats (HP/Atk/Def/Spc/Spe): 123/100/62/97/68
New Moves: Body Slam
Removed Moves: None

Explanation: Gogoat is a no-nonsense offensive tank that simply uses its newfound grass/ground dual stab alongside perfect coverage to bonk everything. Just pick the right moves and hit whatever you think will switch in. Don't be afraid to use that amazing bulk to make some favourable trades when possible! And if you plan to bring Gogoat, be sure to pack some very good ice resists.

Sample Set:
Gogoat
- Razor Leaf
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Body Slam

Pokemon: Breloom
Typing:

Stats (HP/Atk/Def/Spc/Spe): 60/130/80/60/70
New Moves: Karate Chop, Submission
Removed Moves: None

Explanation: Breloom cranks the power behind a dual powder spreader up to scary levels, at the cost of a ton of bulk. Its typing also makes it very prone to commonplace flying, psychic, fire, and ice type attacks. Conversely, it is a unique resister of the edgequake combination and has access to the powerful Spore. It may be difficult to get Breloom on the field safely, but expect huge payoff whenever you do!

Sample Set:
Breloom
- Spore
- Swords Dance
- Submission
- Hyper Beam / Rock Slide

Pokemon: Sceptile
Typing:

Stats (HP/Atk/Def/Spc/Spe): 60/85/65/105/120
New Moves: Razor Leaf
Removed Moves: None

Explanation: Sceptile has Alakazam-level speed (and in turn, its high crit rate) and uses Swords Dance alongside good mixed offensive stats to be a strong endgame cleaner. Razor Leafs coming from 105 special are sure to slice through competition, and conventional grass resists will not appreciate taking +2 Edgequake or Hyper Beam. Sceptile may struggle to do much in the early game, but preserve it like a Tauros and it will shine more and more as the game goes on!

Sample Set:
Sceptile
- Swords Dance
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide / Hyper Beam
- Razor Leaf
 
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Welp, the indigo meta has officially became dead everyone.

Being real, I think changing types could have been done for my version, but I wa simply too scared to do so. The new types really help make this feel different. (it also lets me do a different pet mod if I want now)
 
I like the potential of this meta but I have to ask, what's your reasoning behind adding team preview?
I'm glad you asked! Team preview makes the format more competitive by reducing the surprise factor of a new gen 1 meta, and making the metagame more accessible for later gen players.

Even without preview, vanilla RBY was predictable because of the miniscule pool of viable mons. However, there were some strategies that abused no preview such as baiting an early sleep fodder, and then having an amnesia Slowbro be unsleepable later on. There are a ton more options for those kinds of "whoopsie haha surprise sweep time!" moments in this meta, so enabling team preview alleviates that quite a bit and makes sweeps feel a bit more honest.

Additionally, team preview prevents lead matchups from getting stale. It's much easier to punish the brainless status lead strategy as a result, especially now that powerful anti-meta types like Fire and Flying are significantly stronger now.
 
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I understand the first 2 type chart changes, but why would you "modernize" the poison-bug matchups? Do those changes really make the types more balanced?
 
I understand the first 2 type chart changes, but why would you "modernize" the poison-bug matchups? Do those changes really make the types more balanced?
To most peoples' surprise, yes this type interaction can actually be a big deal in some situations. In vanilla RBY, bug was super effective against poison. This meant that bug type attacks were double super effective against grass/poison types, as an example. Now, this wasn't a big deal when pin missile was vanilla RBY's "best" bug type attack and there were no viable bug types. However, RRIB introduces a bunch of strong bug type threats and actually viable bug type moves. The interactions between bug and poison will be more pronounced in this meta.

Now, I didn't modernize those type matchups for the sake of nerfing bugs or (conversely) buffing poison types. It was mostly done for consistency sake with the rest of the generations. If this change turns out to be some metagame breaking decision, then a reversion can always be discussed. But honestly, I doubt a quality-of-life change that makes learning the meta easier for 99% of players and is really just for grass/poison type interactions... will somehow hurt the metagame.
 
It was mostly done for consistency sake with the rest of the generations. If this change turns out to be some metagame breaking decision, then a reversion can always be discussed. But honestly, I doubt a quality-of-life change that makes learning the meta easier for 99% of players and is really just for grass/poison type interactions... will somehow hurt the metagame.
"a big deal" does not imply "unhealthy". Double weaknesses are simply part of the game in every popular format I can think of. In standard RBY, Rhydon and Dragonite are viable despite being significantly hindered by double weaknesses. Why can't we do the same for Venusaur and Vileplume?

It seems to me that the way you're handling consistency is inconsistent. Do you or do you not care about consistency and "how easy it is to learn"? Right now, the aim in the OP implies that you don't. If you do care, why are you carrying over only the type chart and not all USM mechanics, and why are you not explicitly stating this as one of your aims? If you don't care, why do you prefer the modern bug-poison interactions when there's no evidence that either possibility is more "healthy" or "broken" than the other? Or do you have this evidence?
 
The thing with the bug-poison interactions is: fire not resisting ice, and ghost doing nothing to psychic (rather than being super effective), are both totally ridiculous interactions that make no sense whatsoever. So it really makes perfect sense to modernize those interactions (it's not... strictly necessary, but really is just a good idea). And if you're going to modernize those interactions, then it's very jarring and weird to just for some reason not modernize the bug-poison thing too.

You're framing it as, 'why would you change bug-poison interactions? You need a reason.' But really it's like 'why would you not be consistent with the type chart? You need a reason not to do that.'
 
The thing with the bug-poison interactions is: fire not resisting ice, and ghost doing nothing to psychic (rather than being super effective), are both totally ridiculous interactions that make no sense whatsoever. So it really makes perfect sense to modernize those interactions (it's not... strictly necessary, but really is just a good idea). And if you're going to modernize those interactions, then it's very jarring and weird to just for some reason not modernize the bug-poison thing too.
I agree that ghost probably was supposed to beat psychic, but the ice hitting fire makes sense to me. If you want to extinguish fires, then pouring snow on it is, at the very least, just as effective as doing stuff like punching it or running electricity through it. The reason I'm okay with fire resisting ice is because fire Pokemon are useless in standard RBY, so I thought the change would help balance the types. (also having a type chart that makes sense isn't listed as one of this mod's aims)
You're framing it as, 'why would you change bug-poison interactions? You need a reason.' But really it's like 'why would you not be consistent with the type chart? You need a reason not to do that.'
It's very jarring and weird to just for some reason modernize the type chart but not modernize most of the other modern game mechanics. Why would you not consistently modernize everything or modernize nothing? You need a reason not to do that.
 
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I agree that ghost probably was supposed to beat psychic, but the ice hitting fire makes sense to me. If you want to extinguish fires, then pouring snow on it is, at the very least, just as effective as punching it or running electricity through it. The only reason I'm okay with fire resisting ice is because fire Pokemon are useless in standard RBY, so I thought the change would help balance the types. It's very jarring and weird to just for some reason modernize the type chart but not modernize most of the other modern game mechanics. Why would you not consistently modernize everything or modernize nothing? You need a reason not to do that.
...because the type chart is separate from the other mechanics...? Also both Bug and Poison moves are largely irrelevant in competitive RBY anyway, while things like the Special stat, the different EV mechanics, and the crit rate mechanics are pretty defining of the generation.
 
Basically there's been a lot of playtesting of gen 1 mods with type chart modernization over the years (including this one), and never has anyone reported the problem you described after having experienced actual gameplay. And also what Pika Xreme just said!
 
So you're modernizing all the mechanics that have no effect on the RBY OU metagame and lot of people want to modernize?
never has anyone reported the problem you described after having experienced actual gameplay.
Which problem is this referring to?
 
So you're modernizing all the mechanics that have no effect on the RBY OU metagame and lot of people want to modernize? Which problem is this referring to?
Let's keep this constructive. Anybody can play the I-Am-Posturing-As-A-Backseat-Intellectual-Gamer-Buff-Who-Plays-Devils-Advocate-For-The-Sake-Of-It-And-Nothing-More role, it doesn't get anybody anywhere and ends up with cyclical conversations that get people frustrated.

Regarding modernizing the typechart and not every aspect of the generation... lol if we were to do that then we'd end up with literally a future generation. This has already been done for me, 6 times over. The goal of this mod is not to recreate gen 7 or change gen 1 into some future gen, it's to balance first generation play within the gen 1 OU metagame. Proposing to revert the bug/poison type effectiveness back to its vanilla gen 1 state will require evidence of why Poison types are so overbearing (or why bug types are so bad) that we they need bug types to hit poison types super effectively. I am not the one with the burden of evidence to explain my decision (which I generously did anyway), you are for proposing it.

All that theory aside, this metagame has been tested in over 40 games now. Bug types, notably Butterfree and Parasect, are strong and sincerely do not need another buff on the scale of entire type effectiveness. This is something that can be learned through playing the metagame, which I encourage you to do before proposing something rather defining.

If you'd like to continue discussing this change, feel free to PM me on discord or smogon. I'd rather not have the entire thread cluttered over something as semantic as this. This is a pet mod, not a legal documentation structure. There is more implied leeway in implementing a metagame here.
 
this mod is fucking amazing

who would have expected a mod where Butterfree and Mewtwo are both OU-viable. For any gen. Not me, that's for sure. Pretty much every fully-evolved Pokémon is at least decent and that's rad.

Especially Butterfree, which is just so good. As it turns out, giving Butterfree actually passable stats, the Bug/Psychic type it should have had in the first place, and usable Bug STAB? Makes it pretty much the best thing ever. (I am not an expert on the meta and my claims of Butterfree being the best thing ever should be taken with a grain of salt.)

First off it has Sleep Powder, which is self-explanatory in its goodness. It also has Leech Life, which like Gen 7 is a good move, but in a different way. You see, in this mod, Leech Life has 60 Power... and heals all the damage it deals. Keep in mind RBY has very little recovery. And while Parasect has a better sleeping move and more Attack for Leech Life, you know what Butterfree has that it doesn't? An actually good type, and actual speed.

so yeah mod good and butterfree good

also there's more than one ghost and dragon type and that's dank as hell
 

Spook

TRUER THAN FICTION!
is an Artist
Beep Boop. Here's my thoughts on the current metagame and some proposed buffs.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------Buffs-----------------------------------------------------------------------------​

Stats: 65/85/70/75/40 -> 75/85/80/105/50 (+10 HP, +10 Def, +30 Spc, +10 Spe)

Movepool Additions: +Swords Dance, +Body Slam

Giving Porygon more of a defensive sweeper role with Swords Dance gives Porygon a bit of versatility, however, it's mediocre type with weakness to Submission, as well as no STAB for it's higher stat means Porygon might have a bit of trouble getting set up. However, i do believe that these additions will at least give Porygon a bit more firepower.


Typing: Bug/Fighting OR Bug/Normal

Movepool Additions: +Twineedle, +Leech Life

Pinsir literally has one STAB in Vice Grip. giving it some more STAB options alongside giving it a better typing either enabling it to pull of Submission OR Hyper Beam, Slash, and Body Slam. Bug/Fighting makes you really weak to Flying as well as Psychic, while Bug/Normal gives you an immunity to Ghost in trade for neutral damage to Fighting.


------------------------------------------------------------------------Nice Mons-------------------------------------------------------------------------​


-Nice speed along with Hypnosis, Normal/Ghost coverage, as well as decent Flying stab makes this really nice against fighting and psychic types.


-Amnesia, Blizzard, Surf, Good HP, decent Special, and Paralysis spreading. need i say more? #dewgang


-Weak to 2 things with a way to deal with 1. also, Dream Eater and resistance to 2 very popular types. yum.
 
Just wanted to make an update that replays are uploadable now, though there are times where replay uploading won't be online. This will be regulated swiftly in the OP.

Also, feel free to share your thoughts on some cores or even just individual Pokemon in the metagame! Good cores will be archived in a reserved post for everyone to quickly review at a later time. I'll start with a couple that I really like.
Blastoise
- Hydro Pump
- Earthquake
- Blizzard
- Submission

Articuno
- Blizzard
- Whirlwind
- Agility
- Hyper Beam
If you've played competitive vanilla RBY, you may have heard of Starpras. The premise is that Lapras baits the likes of Chansey/Alakazam/special walls in general with Sing, and then Starmie is more free to clean up endgame. Blastoise + Articuno accomplishes this more offensively, and with way better type synergy to boot! Blastoise is capable of luring Chansey with buffed Submission, nailing a clean 2hko or OHKO with a crit. It can also take advantage of rock, fire, and electric types that try to take advantage of Articuno. In return, Articuno abuses grass types and has the raw firepower to break through walls like Clefable or attackers like Gyarados, which Blastoise can struggle with. This core struggles hard against Starmie, but is a solid duo outside of that!
Alakazam
- Psychic
- Recover
- Thunder Wave
- Reflect

Mewtwo
- Psychic
- Blizzard
- Submission / Tri Attack
- Self-Destruct
Pretty straightforward idea, take the two psychic types with the strongest special and have one of them lure special walls. Mewtwo breaks down psychic checks like nobody's business, freeing up a mono-attack Alakazam to clean up lategame.
Clefable
- Blizzard
- Soft-Boiled
- Thunder Wave
- Thunderbolt

Butterfree
- Sleep Powder
- Psychic
- Leech Life
- Stun Spore
This is a great defensive core for players that are very used to vanilla RBY play, as it plays similarly to Eggy + Chansey in that they will reliably get down a ton of status while sponging averagely strong hits in return. Clefable is a good check to rock and normal types, while Butterfree is a godlike check to strong psychic types and most fighting types. This core is weak to dedicated wallbreakers with obscenely strong damage output, but it's very easy to build off of this defensive core to check whatever you need.
 
It's obviously extremely premature for any kind of actual tier list, but I got bored and threw this together anyway. There are *lots* of unanswered questions, everything is super unclear right now (and not just the stuff that I absolutely refused to rank).

185415


Thoughts on some selected pokemon:<br />
<br />
Mewtwo: seems like a total late game menace.
Butterfree: I don't even know where to begin with Butterfree, it just does so much so well. Extremely fun to use
Porygon: Sharpen is really wow given that it has recover.
Tauros: is Tauros.

Dragonite: Not sure what to make of how good hyper fang is yet. I could be overrating this.
Gen 1 stuff: Pretty much functions as it's supposed to. I could be underestimating a lot here, although Alakazam really hates Butterfree and Chansey hates a lot of things.
Marowak: Its body slam does like, as much damage as Tauros body slam. Like... this thing has to be amazing right?
Nidoqueen: I could be overrating this. This game is fast and the electrics in this game are not like they are in rby.
Magneton: Not a fan of Raichu or Electabuzz but neither are Goldon and it has healing. And unlike Nidoqueen it does resist Drill Peck and Explosion.

Anything with healing: there's a lot of stuff with pretty bad stats but with Recover now. Recover is sooooo good. At the same time, I could be overrating it somewhat if the game is really aggressive. Vileplume and Omastar are the ones I'm really looking at here I think. And Mew, but I *really* don't know what to make of Mew yet

"Probably not that good" tier: Could easily be wrong on most of these. Parasect I feel has a hard time competing with Butterfree and Tangela, and sleep is not as valuable in rrib. Jynx, kind of the same deal--it has more competition as a relatively fast sleeper, team preview makes sleep worse, and sleep is nerfed as a status. Onix I feel has so much competition and I kind of doubt Bind can make up for that.

I feel like it will take a long time for things to actually be understood in this format lol
 
Alright, fairly big update on the metagame. Here are some buffs and some sample teams! Note the significantly wider variety of Pokemon, 16/18 teamslots in these 3 teams alone are unique. Lots of other Pokemon are being tested as we speak on a bunch of experimental teams from many players, don't miss out :]

**Also, I added some more sample replays. They give some good insight into the nature of the metagame, as well as some more teams. They're worth a look when you can!

HP:65 -> 75
Attack:60 -> 85
Defense:70 -> 80
Special:75 -> 95
Speed:40 -> 50

Access to boosted sharpen, increases attack and special by 1 stage
Access to boosted tri-attack, 80 bp ghost move
Gains body slam

Porygon’s unique move in sharpen lets it fully abuse its great mixed attacking movepool now by raising attack and special simultaneously. The addition of body slam now gives it a more spammable STAB option, while compressing Porygon’s para spread utility better with the rest of its kit. It’s still slow and susceptible to strong hits (before boosting) or sleep. But once it gets rolling, it can be hard to stop.

HP:65 -> 95
Attack:130
Defense:60
Special:110
Speed:65

Gains Explosion

Flareon’s increased bulk and newfound access to Explosion makes it a master of trading with the opponent. Many typical fire resists like rock/ground types can find themselves getting worn down fast by its strong fire blasts, or water types can get outright destroyed by a powerful Explosion coming off of 130 base attack. It still struggles hard with water/rock types like most fire types do, but supporting that matchup isn’t hard for Flareon to freely blast teams apart.

Sample Teams
Alakazam
- Psychic
- Recover
- Thunder Wave
- Seismic Toss

Blastoise
- Hydro Pump
- Earthquake
- Blizzard
- Submission

Exeggutor
- Sleep Powder
- Psychic
- Explosion
- Stun Spore

Clefable
- Body Slam
- Hyper Beam
- Soft-Boiled
- Thunderbolt

Articuno
- Blizzard
- Whirlwind
- Agility
- Hyper Beam

Tauros
- Body Slam
- Hyper Beam
- Earthquake
- Thunderbolt
Scyther
- Swords Dance
- Twineedle
- Wing Attack
- Hyper Beam

Charizard
- Fire Blast
- Hyper Fang
- Earthquake
- Submission

Exeggutor
- Sleep Powder
- Psychic
- Explosion
- Stun Spore

Chansey
- Blizzard
- Soft-Boiled
- Thunder Wave
- Thunderbolt

Golem
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Explosion
- Rest

Starmie
- Psychic
- Thunderbolt
- Recover
- Thunder Wave
Alakazam
- Psychic
- Recover
- Thunder Wave
- Reflect

Mewtwo
- Psychic
- Blizzard
- Submission
- Self-Destruct

Moltres
- Fire Blast
- Fire Spin
- Agility
- Whirlwind

Parasect
- Spore
- Leech Life
- Slash
- Stun Spore

Blastoise
- Hydro Pump
- Earthquake
- Blizzard
- Submission

Electrode
- Thunderbolt
- Thunder Wave
- Hyper Beam
- Explosion
 

Yung Dramps

pawsome gaming
is a Pre-Contributor
Here's my current metagame tierlist
185478


  • People are severely underrating Fearow and I don't know why. Even with the loss of Dream Eater it's still one of the best sleep users in the meta, even being one of the best offensive checks to the two Sleepers above it, Eggy and Butterfree.
  • I initially was skeptical of Porygon, but after some testing, wowee. Sharpen with Blizzard and Body slam just does so much damage, in particular cleaving past Amnesia users all while eating hits serviceably with Recover. That said, I don't think it's quite top tier material, as its bulk is just ok imo and can let it down sometimes.
  • Sorry Kurai, but I don't see what Clefable does. In theory it's a more physically bulky counterpart to Chansey, and it can do that nicely, but is it really worth the massive Special bulk drop? Personally, I don't think it is most of the time. If someone would mind proving its worth to me, that would be positively dandy.
  • Hyper Fang is a ludicrous move. The reason why Charizard and Dragonite abuse it so well imo is because they have other great coverage options to take things down with, being able to save Hyper Fang for later in the match. Seadra's been a little underwhelming in that department for me, but Blizzard + Hydro Pump is cool and I already feel like my current rating may have been too harsh for it upon further contemplation.
  • Memes aside, Farfetch'd probably would fit into the "very very niche" category. One of the underrated benefits of its Razor Leaf spam is cteaming the premier Amnesia users Dewgong and Slowbro. Double Dance Whirlwind is very cool.
  • I feel like Mew currently suffers from "Silvally syndrome": It can do tons of things, but those things are all done better by many other mons. At the same time though, I feel we should wait and test it a bit more before giving it another buff.
  • Butterfree is the best mon in the meta aside from maybe Tauros. My top 4 rating from best to "worst" would go Butterfree, Tauros, Mewtwo and Exeggutor, with the gap between Butterfree and Tauros being so tiny it may as well be a tie.
 
Would you consider adding the Physical Special Status Split?
I would not. While other mechanical changes were made out of convenience or quality-of-life improvements, this proposed change would drastically shift the entire balance of the metagame and it’s unclear as to whether or not it would be beneficial to the generation, especially seeing how every pokemon has been balanced with the current move category mechanics.

If it were to be implemented, most of the 81 pokemon would have to be rebalanced again and the end result would be something much further from “balanced rby”. It would be closer to a “gen 3/1 fusion”, which is not within the scope of the pet mod.
 

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