[Gen 4] Big, Bulky, and in your face

Hello Smogon. This is my 5th RMT, and hopefully my 2nd to last. I finally found another way to make my team closer to perfection, and think I found another great way to put on the pressure. This team is again, one of my favorites, but lacks something that my other teams had. I can't figure it out, and after lots of thinking, I decided that the opinions of Smogon was needed. I've never been let down here, and can't wait for advice. Please keep one thing in mind - I can’t use Rotom Formes. Other than that, here’s my team: Big, Bulky, and in your face.

Big, Bulky, and in your face

After using one of my favorites - Jolteon - as a sweeper, I learned that it still wasn't cutting it. Those fat Blisseys and annoying Flygons were still tormenting me. All my sweepers in the past were special, so I changed to the physical side. Lucky me, the most dangerous one (to me) and another of my favorite happened to be sitting there waiting for me: Agiligross

Agility Metagross hates several things - Rotom, Skarm, Zapdos, Bulky Waters, and EQ. I had to take this one step at a time. Heatran easily covers Rotom and Skarm with a little of Zapdos, and might get a free Flash Fire Boost if I predict right. Heatran also happens to rape hard and isn't the #1 used OU Poke without reason.

Now I'm weak to Earthquake. Coincidently, that happens to be one of Metagross' problems that I need to fix. I chose Bulky DD Gyarados. He's immune to EQ, and helps Heatran as well.

What's this? Heatran and Gyara? I now have 2/3 of a FWG core. Now I just need a grass type. Of the 2 most common, Celebi and Shaymin, I chose Shaymin. Even with the same base stat total, I've never used Celebi, and Shaymin has almost never let me down. I decided on a Proseed Shaymin, for namesake and because that's my favorite set to use.

4 members in, and I already forgot a lead. I've always used Azelf, and thank Faladran (formerly Jirachi) for an amazing Choice Band set that makes Machamp look like nothing. However, I'm very far in team builing and don't have a Stealth Rock user, and had to go back to my roots - 1KOing that motherfucker Machamp. Life Orb Azelf returns to me.

Now, most of my teams suffer from some eletric weakness. Luckily, with Shaymin and Heatran, its nulified a bit. Another problem I had was having a 'hard hitter', a Banded/Specs/LO user that could cripple anything on switch ins. I couldn't think of anything that my team needed, so I just decided on CB Infernape. I originally had other choices, but this works best for me.

More in Depth
Changes in ORANGE

Azelf (TwinBlade)
Life Orb
252 SpA / 252 Spe / 4 HP
- Stealth Rock
- Psychic
- Fire Blast
- Taunt
Life Orb Azelf, the sure way to 1HKO those Lead Machamps. Originally a Dual Screen lead, but that relied on the situation. Fire Blast 1HKOs Metagross, and Taunt cripples anything slower.Here's a small list on how he does against other leads: Wins in Gray, loses in Blue, ties in black
Azelf -
I pray that the speed tie allows both of use to get rocks up.
Machamp -
Psychic 1HKOs and you can somehow hear the other guy raging.
Gliscor -
Taunt the guy and set up rocks.
Swampert -
Taunt trollpert and get rocks up.
Heatran -
I've never faced one of these. I assume Fire Blast 1HKOs. After rocks go up, Gyara comes in and Waterfalls. I could Taunt, but again, its never happened yet.
Hippodown - Taunt the fatass
Dragonite -
Rocks go up, and I die
Aerodactyl -
I get taunted, and he gets his rocks
Weavile -
He's faster, but I'll go to Gyara anyway, then Taunt (for Counter) and Waterfall all day.
Bronzong -
Taunt and rocks
Roserade - Taunt and get up rocks
Jirachi -
Tricky... I lack a scarfer. If he Iron Heads, I go to tran, if he tricks, I've got a scarfed Azelf
Metagross - Taunt, though they generally mash first and kill with Bullet Punch, so intead I get rocks up and go to tran for a scarf bluff.
Smeargle -
Taunt and rocks
Covers: Heatran, Metagross
Covered by: Lone Ranger here, but Gyara to an extent

Heatran (Vesuvius)
Flash Fire
252 SpA / 252 Spe / SpD
- Substitute
- Fire Blast
- Earth Power
- Hidden Power Rock 68
Sub tran is using sub. Everyone always assumes scarf, just like how everyone expects Breloom to Spore. I couldn't decide on either HP Electric or Ice, so I put on HP Rock. Thanks to calcs, I 2HKO with rocks and am faster than all variations of nite and Gyara except those that fully offensive ones use 252 Speed and DDs.
Offensive DD Gyara - 44.7% - 53.2%
Bulky DD Gyara - 40% - 47.6%
Mixed Attacker nite - 44.7% - 53.2%
DD nite - 38.3% - 45.6%
Banded nite - 45.8% - 54.5%

All calcs except for
Bulky DD gyara with Leftys
DD nite with Leftys (only real threat)
add up to over 75%

Covers: Metagross
Covered by: Gyarados, Azelf

Gyarados (FirstBlood)
156 HP / 72 Att / 96 Def / 184 Spe
- Dragon Dance
- Waterfall
- Stone Edge
- Taunt
Bulky DD Gyara is an amazing physical tank. If he didn't have an SR weakness, I think he'd be the best physical wall (except skarm) in the game. He takes hits like no tomorrow and can sweep and decimate generally anything. Waterfall for STAB, Stone Edge for opposing nites and Gyara. Taunt for those slower guys who try to ruin my fun time.
Covers: Heatran
Covered by: Shaymin

Shaymin (Shy Men)
Natural Cure
252 HP / 180 Spe / 76 SpA
- Leech Seed
- Protect
- Seed Flare
- Hidden Power Ice
Proseed Shaymin has been a solid Poke in most of my teams. He takes hits easily, and can attack back. I used HP Ice over Fire due to having both Gyara and Heatran to take down steels. HP Ice also KOs nite after SR.
Covers: Gyara, Heatran
Covered by: Heatran

Metagross (Maxed Out)
Iron Ball
236 HP / 252 Atk / 20 Spe
-Meteor Mash

To tell the truth, I've only read on this Metagross when I was one day swept by an Agiligross, my original main sweeper. I've never used him, but this chance is too good to pass up. Since my team seems to prefer covering all bases instead of clearing the way for a sweep, I changed Metagross into a supporting attacker, stallbreaker, and he also fixed my weaknesses. He now bluffs a choice band, perfect for luring levitating and flyers and Iron then tricking them my Iron Ball.

Covers: He just comes in on some weak attack and now can bluff a choice set with his new bulk.
Covered by: Heatran, Gyarados

Flygon (NeedsLover)
Choice Scarf
252 Atk/252 Spd/4 SpDef
- Earthquake
- Outrage
- ThunderPunch
- U-turn
Scarf Flygon, you all know him well. He's that resident revenge killer, Earthquake taker, and loves running circles around teams. I said that I liked a bulky attacker earlier when I had ape; what I meant was that I needed someway to get a him in without sacing someone as Ape is incredibly frail. Flygon is also frail, but with shitloads of resists and an immunity to the popular Earthquake, he's got plenty of chances to get in and scout.
Covers: Heatran
Covered by: Gyara (kinda), Heatran

Former Members

Infernape (Striker)
Choice Band
252 Att / 252 Spe / 4 HP
- Flare Blitz
- Close Combat
- U-Turn
- Stone Edge
CB Ape is really powerful. Originally a Subsplit Gengar. Like every normal person, people assume mixape and that he's my main sweeper when I send him in early. I generally try to U-Turn and Close Combat as much as possible before he dies. Generally I try to get him to do as much damage as possible, but he always needs a free switch in, though he cripples like crazy.
Covers: Nobody. He's ape, what do you except?
Covered by: Gyarados

Fixed weaknesses in ORANGE
Lack of a scarf user - I have trouble putting a scarf user here. I'm not sure what to do, but generally never have too much problems with set-up sweepers. Covered by Flygon
Stall - I don't really have a big stall weakness with Gyara and Shaymin, but I'm a bit inexperienced with dealing with it. Not exactly fully remedied, but fortified with Metagross.
DD Gyara - The only thing stopping this massive beast is my own Gyara, a little luck, and Stone Edge. He's hard to stop, but generally enemy Gyara come in on Heatran on the switch with a sub. Covered by Flygon
Electivire - Not a big problem without any speed boosts to grab, but he could potentially kill every Poke here with his crazy coverage. Gyara's intimidate and Shaymin's Proseed is generally how I do it. I use Ape if he gets a free switch in. Covered by Flygon
Rotom - This motherfucker isn't a big problem, but can circles around me with his typing and coverage. To kill him, I need to either snag a Flash Fire boost when Gyara is out, or have Ape maim with Flare Blitz. Covered by Metagross


Thanks for the read. I really want this team to be my next best, or the best it can be. My team building skills need some help and advice. My previous RMTs always had some unanswered questions. If its possible, try to answer these along with your advice.
Answered questions in ORANGE.
What scarf/revenge killer would fit well here?
I prefer bulky heavy hitters to dish out the damage in place of ape, I'm currently eying offensive CM Suicune and LO Starmie. Is that a good idea?
Since I'm a bit reliant on rocks for some KOs, and may lose to some popular leads, what kind of lead could replace LO Azelf?

Thank you for your time and reading (or skiming?). I know this team can become better and I need some constructive criticism. Thank you, and for now, I'm backing out. One last look:
Ah I love a good bulky offence team.

I'd recommend a Choice Scarf Flygon over Infernape as he covers Gyarados and Electivire with ease, as well as providing you a way of revenge killing.

This is the set I'd use.

Flygon (M) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 Atk/252 Spd/4 SpDef
Jolly nature (+Spd,-SpAtk)
- Earthquake
- Outrage
- ThunderPunch
- U-turn
So you have trouble with Electivire eh? The way I'd recommend handling him is to try and lure him into Flamethrower by bringing out Shaymin, then making a switch to Heatran. Hopefully you nab a Flash Fire boost. Beyond that think about adding a ghost to your team to keep Rocks up. But for the problem at hand, I'd recommend trying out a Lead Swampert in place of Azelf, who you could use to reliably set up Rocks, as well as counter the two big counters of yours right now. (It may be wise to scout for HP Grass on Elevtivire before you use him as a counter).

Relaxed Nature
Stealth Rock
Ice Beam
Hidden Power[Electric]

HP Electric does between 47% and 53% to Bulky DD Gyara and Swampert only takes 59%-63% from Offensive DD Gyara at +1. Remember that Gyarados took 25% coming in from Stealth Rock, and he also has lost 10% from Life Orb. This means that Gyara will be getting a maximum of 2 more attacks off. Maybe Less if you're battling an offensive variant.
I disagree with the comment about using Flygon to counter Gyara, you'll just end up giving a free turn to your opponent as they switch to their Rock resist, which could mean complete ownage if that happens to be an AgiliGross like your own.

I really like the above Swampert as a Gyara counter, but you say you're devoted to Azelf in the lead slot, so what I think you should do is replace Infernape with Starmie:

Starmie @ Choice Scarf
6 HP / 252 SpAtk / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
-Hydro Pump
-Ice Beam

Also, I just realized, I've had the privilege of facing this team, though I don't remember the result :P
Hey cool team AntiMetagame! This looks like a pretty good team and I think most of your problems are pretty easily fixed, so that's good. Unfortunately these changes will necesitate a change in member, so bear with me.

Now, you say that you'd like a scarfer, but that you also would appreciate a bulky, heavy hitter. Well, I'm not sure if Infernape was that bulky for you, but I also understand that you like sets that are unexpected- at least, that's the impression i get from reading your descriptions. So I think I have some really cool fixes, if you'll bear with me here.

Firstly, I agree that scarf Flygon solves many of your problems- offensive electric types in general are a real pain for this team, such as Zapdos, Jolteon or Raikou, as well as Gyarados. I won't go into detail on him, I'm sure you understand how a scarf flygon operates and I don't feel that description will be necessary.

Secondly, if you won't mind changing Metagross' set, why not try Trick + Iron Ball Metagross?

@ Iron Ball
236 HP / 252 Atk / 20 Spe
-Meteor Mash

I know that Agiligross was your "star of the show", but this set is my absolute favourite Metagross set, hands down, and it works so well with your team! Think for a moment- what are Metagross' main counters? Rotom and Skarmory immediately come to mind, as well as things like Bronzong and Zapdos. Okay, how do all of these things operate with an iron Ball? Not very well. By luring in his counters and tricking them an iron ball, Metagross then can procede to earthquake his "counters", outspeeding them and hitting them for super-effective damage. This solves your Rotom problem, as well as your problem with stall! If you can only eliminate Rotom with this set, then your Gyarados tears apart stall single-handedly. Trick + Iron Ball Metagross and Bulky Gyarados work very well together, as well as with Shaymin since Metagross also lures in Special Defensive Skarmory or Zapdos, Shaymin's usualy stops. These are also, coincidentially, Flygon's usual counters. As you can see, Metagross works well as the bulky wall-breaker you were looking for, and opens holes for the rest of the team to break through.

Something else you might want to try would be a small change on Heatran. I'm not really a fan of Hidden Power on him, and I usually prefer Toxic. Any of Heatran's usual switch ins (Gyarados and Dragonite included) HATE being toxiced. This also includes bulky waters, and by poisoning your opponent's bulky water, you are only furthering the opportunity for your Gyarados to sweep, which, with the team support you are giving him, is now very possible. Basically, it covers the things you were trying to hit with Hidden Power, and then some, indirectly supporting your Gyarados.

And that's all the advice I have for you, this is a pretty excellent team and I hope these suggestions help. Good Luck!
Hi, I'm kind of late to the party here, but anyways:

I agree with Scarf Flygon, definitely works here.
Smith's trick+iron ball Metagross is also a good idea, gonna back him up on that.

Lastly, I'd recommend Stealth Rock > Explosion on LO Azelf. I've used it before, try it out. It works wonders, Explosion isn't necessary here because the things you'd generally Explode on can be dealt with by the rest of your team/hit hard by Azelf's other two moves.

Good team and good luck!
Just a small nitpick, but on Bulky DDance Gyara I'd suggest Bounce over SE. You get a free turn of Leftovers, and it hits Celebi for SE. Everyone else (other than Azelf) already has something to hit flying types SE, so there really is no point.
Thanks everyone! To be honest, I was already thinking of Flygon and Jirachi, but wasn't sure who to use. I've used both Scarf Starmie and Flygon and have bad memories with both, but I'll have to go with Flygon because of his electric resist. I do remember reading about the Trick + Iron Ball gross long ago, and I'll try it since everyone says it helps my team greatly. Thanks for the tips everyone, now all I need is Faladran to get here.
Hi again. I hope you don't mind using some of the same sets, but I think a lead combination of CB Azelf + ShucaTran would perform better. This duo works really well against most opposing leads, and is great at putting pressure on the opponent. Just for reference, these are the two sets I had in mind.

Azelf @ Choice Band
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 144 Atk / 112 SDef / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Zen Headbutt
- Ice Punch
- Explosion
- U-turn

Heatran @ Shuca Berry
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 36 HP / 252 SAtk / 220 Spd
Mild Nature (+SAtk, -Def)
- Stealth Rock
- Fire Blast
- Hidden Power Grass
- Explosion

In particular, ShucaTran will help clear up weaknesses to opposing Shaymin, who currently forces you to switch around a lot. Having Explosion is also useful for luring in and KOing special walls to open up holes for your own Shaymin to sweep through. Quick nitpick on your lead strategies: against Metagross, U-turn out to Heatran for Stealth Rock / Fire Blast, since competent players use Meteor Mash first against Azelf.


  • What scarf/revenge killer would fit well here?
I actually think Scarf Shaymin could work nicely. Although it is pretty rare, Scarf Shaymin is quite effective at revenge killing, and would help in patching up your Gyarados weakness. Check Joel's RMT for more info. The rarity of this set could be quite useful for surprise kills; for instance, against Aerodactyl leads, you could U-turn out with Azelf and go to Shaymin to outspeed and OHKO.

  • I prefer bulky heavy hitters to dish out the damage in place of ape, I'm currently eying offensive CM Suicune and LO Starmie. Is that a good idea?
It would certainly be worth a try. CB Infernape has been one of the less effective sets in my experience, and having an additional Water-type would help to take some pressure off of Gyarados having to switch into Stealth Rock and Fire attacks. Suicune especially would fix your Gyarados weakness completely, as it can check it with HP Electric.

  • Since I'm a bit reliant on rocks for some KOs, and may lose to some popular leads, what kind of lead could replace LO Azelf?
I personally favor CB Azelf, but there are other good options available. Icy Wind Gengar and CB Crobat are also relatively rare and effective, and both are capable of shutting down slower leads with Taunt.

Good luck!
Lol thanks, now you've given me 2 teams to play with. Thanks for the CB set again, I really miss it. Question though, why use HP Grass when I have Shaymin? Shouldn't Earth Power be superior?
I disagree with the comment about using Flygon to counter Gyara, you'll just end up giving a free turn to your opponent as they switch to their Rock resist, which could mean complete ownage if that happens to be an AgiliGross like your own.
The Flygon set mentioned earlier uses Thunderpunch, not StoneEdge.
Also I would agree that the swampert earlier is a good leads, as he is able to reliably get up stealth rock and besides that, can check Electivire and Gyaraods quite well. Though I would say that you really don't have much to from a Hidden Power Grass Electivre, as they are rather uncommon.

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