Done Gen 8 CAP Updates - CAP18 - Volkraken

LucarioOfLegends

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:volkraken: CAP18: Volkraken Generation 8 Update:volkraken:

Hello! Welcome to the Generation 8 Volkraken update thread. In this thread, we will be updating the movepool of one of our past CAP creations to better match the changes Gamefreak made in Generation 8.

A major change that occurred between this update cycle and the last was to significantly narrow the scope of CAP updates. Abilities, statlines, and typings will not be changed during the course of this update. Only changes to a CAP's movepool will be allowed. Additionally, full movepool changes are also off the table, as the Update Leaders will decide where to distribute moves for their respective Pokemon based off logic and the ICC.

Furthermore, we have defined what type of changes are allowed to movepools, as well as the type of moves up for discussion. Movepool changes will be broken down in two categories: removals and additions. Moves that are subject to removal are those that have been rendered unusable in Sword and Shield, such as Pursuit, and past generation tutors and Technical Machiness that are not available as a Generation 8 Technical Machines or Technical Records. Move that are subject to addition are moves introduced in Sword and Shield and moves that are new Generation 8 Technical Machines or Technical Records. Please make sure that any moves brought up in this thread fall under at least one of these categories.

We have also defined the following considerations for use in evaluating move removals and additions. The foremost consideration is that any change proposed fits both the flavor of the CAP in question and the flavor of Generation 8 as a whole. This means that all changes should follow trends and precedents seen in Generation 8. Intentional buffing and balancing of CAP Pokemon is not the intent of this update cycle. We also wish to avoid the creation of an unbalanced CAP Pokemon. Therefore, the second consideration for move changes is the competitive impact of said changes. Moves that are clearly too powerful will be banned from discussion by the Update Leader.

This update cycle also has a set schedule. For four weeks, each of the seven Update Leaders will post a discussion thread for a single CAP Pokemon. This thread will be used for the discussion of changes to a CAPs movepool as explained in this post. Each thread will have six days reserved for discussion on potential changes to a CAP's movepool. On the seventh day, the Update Leader will collect the ICC and determine what will be changed. Controversial changes will be subject to a poll.

For the discussion of Volkraken, please refer to its updated gen 7 movepool for the CAP's full movepool. Some other resources the CAP mods have compiled to make discussion easier is this list of cut moves that are distributed to our CAP pokemon, and this list of past TMs that were not included as Gen 8 TMs and TRs. Note that for the TM list, moves with * are those that have been cut entirely.

This thread will be locked until LucarioOfLegends makes their leading post.
 

LucarioOfLegends

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I would like to say before we begin that I would like to apologize for how long this has taken to go up. I can partially blame it on draining irl events, but this is still my responsibility and this should have been up far sooner than it initially was. But let's get to the fun stuff!

:bw/volkraken:

Alright, number 2 will be our favorite fire squid Volkraken! Let's have a look at its movepool.

0 Constrict
0 Flash

0 Bite
0 Absorb
0 Reflect
0 Water Gun

4 Reflect
9 Water Gun
14 Whirlpool
18 Fire Spin
23 Flame Burst
28 Scald
32 Destiny Bond
35 Fire Lash
39 Dive
42 Power Gem
46 Aqua Ring
51 Heat Wave
56 Hydro Pump
60 Wring Out
66 Memento
Aqua Jet (Barraskewda)
Assurance (Octillery, Basculin)
Captivate
Reflect Type (Stunfisk-G)
Scary Face (Gyarados)
Tickle (Whiscash)
Water Pulse (Lapras)
TM06 Toxic
TM10 Hidden Power

TM11 Sunny Day
TM15 Hyper Beam
TM17 Protect
TM18 Rain Dance
TM21 Frustration
TM27 Return

TM28 Leech Life
TM32 Double Team
TM33 Reflect
TM35 Flamethrower
TM38 Fire Blast
TM41 Torment
TM42 Facade
TM44 Rest
TM45 Attract
TM46 Thief
TM48 Round
TM50 Overheat
TM54 False Swipe
TM55 Scald
TM56 Fling
TM60 Quash
TM61 Will-O-Wisp
TM66 Payback
TM68 Giga Impact
TM70 Flash
TM83 Infestation
TM87 Swagger

TM88 Sleep Talk
TM89 U-turn
TM90 Substitute
TM91 Flash Cannon
TM94 Surf
TM98 Waterfall
TM100 Confide
Bind
Bounce
Covet
Heat Wave
Snore
Water Pulse
Incinerate
Secret Power


There are a number of red moves here that are going to be lost, but luckily nothing here is too serious for competitive viability. Lets get one question to start on the board.

1. Volkraken has quite a few moves that are currently in danger in blue, ranging from Bind to Infestation to Confide and others. Which of these moves would we like to keep and, if any at all are kept, where should they be moved? Could some perhaps be used to replace red moves in the level up/egg movepool?

While this structure welcomes addition as its flavorful focus, the number of losses in its level up and large number of blue moves are quite important to address before we can hit additions full force. As such, please refrain for now from discussion of additions, and instead focus on removals and rearrangment for the time being.
 
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- Bind over Constrict (similar flavour)
- Incinerate over Flame Burst (similar flavour)
- Do not replace Wring Out (nothing seems to fit) but move Memento to 60.
- Alternatively move Destiny Bond to 60 (it is usually learnt much later than 32) and put something else at 32.
- Maybe Double Team over Flash (similar function), but I'm unsure about the flavour
- Maybe add Infestation to egg moves (from Dewpider)
 

Dogfish44

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Obviously step one is to remove Reflect (L4 Copy) and Water Gun (L9 Copy) due to changes in movepool design meaning moves don't get duplicated any more (wow that's weird to get used to).

Nothing here is particularly major as a loss - I essentially agree with Menshay here on their first 4 points. I disagree on Double Team > Flash (Flavour was "light" based, something about glowing squid if memory serves), whilst Infestation I don't think has flavour rationale any more due to a chronically shrunk pool of mons with the move.
 
Moreover Assurance and Scary Face are TMs, and as such they should be removed from the egg move pool.
If Destiny Bond gets moved Scary Face could be the level 32 move due to vaguely similar distribution. I'm not sure it fits Volkritter (which evolves at level 34) enough to be a level-up move, though.
 

LucarioOfLegends

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The repeating moves comment is noted! Lv 4 Reflect and Lv 9 Water Gun will be removed from the final movepool. I would like a bit more discussion on some of the weirder moves, especially on what we want to do with Wring Out's slot, but the suggestion we have are great so far! The thread is dragging though so I think it is about time.

While I would still like more discussion on blue moves and the above mentioned, move addition discussion is officially open for business! Keep it tame here y'all, I want good reasonings and if you think that something may have too large of competitive implications I reccomend to run some calcs on it to support its reasonability.

Go nuts!
 
I agree with Infestation being added as an egg move. Also, it could get Life Dew as an egg move as well since a lot of Water-types get it. Also I was wondering, could Topsy-Turvy be a good replacement for Wring Out? Volkraken reminds me of Malamar, another squid/octopus type of Pokémon that has access to that move. And here's my level up, TM & TR list! New moves are in bold.

L1: Bind, Bite, Absorb, Reflect, Water Gun
L14: Whirlpool
L18: Fire Spin
L23: Incinerate
L28: Scald
L32: Destiny Bond
L35: Fire Lash
L39: Dive
L42: Power Gem
L46: Aqua Ring
L51: Heat Wave
L56: Hydro Pump
L60: Topsy-Turvy
L66: Memento
TM08: Hyper Beam
TM09: Giga Impact
TM13: Fire Spin
TM18: Reflect
TM21: Rest
TM23: Thief
TM24: Snore
TM25: Protect
TM26: Scary Face
TM28: Giga Drain (Better Absorb)
TM31: Attract
TM33: Rain Dance
TM34: Sunny Day
TM36: Whirlpool
TM38: Will-O-Wisp
TM39: Facade
TM45: Dive
TM52: Bounce
TM56: U-turn
TM57: Payback
TM58: Assurance
TM59: Fling
TM76: Round
TM92: Mystical Fire
TM94: False Swipe
TM97: Brutal Swing (It can swing its tentacles around)
TR02: Flamethrower
TR03: Hydro Pump
TR04: Surf
TR15: Fire Blast
TR16: Waterfall
TR18: Leech Life
TR20: Substitute
TR26: Endure
TR27: Sleep Talk
TR36: Heat Wave
TR43: Overheat
TR45: Muddy Water
TR63: Power Gem
TR70: Flash Cannon
TR72: Power Whip (It has tentacles so thematically it fits)
TR84: Scald
TR98: Liquidation
 
Giga Drain would not be a good idea. Volkraken does not already have good Grass coverage, which would mess with several of its Water counters. I can see the flavor appeal, but it's just too good on Volkraken to add at this time.

However, I can understand Power Whip due to Volk's low Attack, meaning it won't find such a move as useful.
 

Wulfanator

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I would avoid new grass coverage altogether. Power Whip can still 2hko Seis from with zero investment and negative nature.
 

LucarioOfLegends

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Here is the Volkraken Movepool! All new additions and placement shifts are in bold.

0 Bind
0 Bite
0 Absorb
0 Reflect
0 Water Gun
14 Whirlpool
18 Fire Spin
23 Incinerate
28 Scald
32 Destiny Bond
35 Fire Lash
39 Dive
42 Power Gem
46 Aqua Ring
51 Heat Wave
56 Hydro Pump
60 Memento
Aqua Jet (Barraskewda)
Reflect Type (Stunfisk-G)
Tickle (Whiscash)
Water Pulse (Lapras)
TM08 Hyper Beam
TM09 Giga Impact
TM13 Fire Spin
TM18 Reflect
TM21 Rest
TM23 Thief
TM24 Snore
TM25 Protect
TM26 Scary Face
TM31 Attract
TM33 Rain Dance
TM34 Sunny Day
TM36 Whirlpool
TM38 Will-O-Wisp
TM39 Facade
TM45 Dive
TM52 Bounce
TM56 U-turn
TM57 Payback
TM58 Assurance
TM59 Fling
TM76 Round
TM94 False Swipe

TR02 Flamethrower
TR03 Hydro Pump
TR04 Surf
TR15 Fire Blast
TR16 Waterfall
TR18 Leech Life
TR27 Sleep Talk
TR36 Heat Wave
TR43 Overheat
TR45 Muddy Water
TR63 Power Gem
TR70 Flash Cannon
TR84 Scald
TR98 Liquidation


Clarification on why some moves were rejected:

Topsy-Turvy is a move that is on two line and while one is a squid and the other is an octopus, where Volkraken would technically fit, the argument breaks down at more than surface level. Both mons are related to inversion to some degree, and more importantly both can learn Reversal. Volkraken cannot. I think this move would need much more discussion for it to pass in any shape, and it is also out of Update scope.

Giga Drain and Power Whip are both very competitive moves in nature, as they do allow Volkraken to get past quite a few of its checks, which the largest include Arghonaut and Seismitoad at the moment. Giga Drain absolutely shoots past these and is automatically veto'd, but even with Power Whip it was not given consensus, and I feel it is lacking flavorfully.

Infestation was a hot topic here, with decent support, but I think the counterpoint that Dogfish44 made is important. Most Pokemon who learn it are all Bug-type and while there are exceptions (Mareanie and Dreepy Line), the latter is tied to the first evo being used through the line and the former is a much stronger case based on their effect on ecosystems. Because of how significant the cut is for its distribution and there is a very solid argument against it that was not disputed in thread, I have a hard time seeing why it should get it.

Mystical Fire did not get enough discussion to really warrant a spot considering how many fire types lack it, especially Arcanine.

Thanks for the great discussion guys!
 

dhelmise

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Code:
1 - Bind
1 - Bite
1 - Absorb
1 - Reflect
1 - Water Gun
14 - Whirlpool
18 - Fire Spin
23 - Incinerate
28 - Scald
32 - Destiny Bond
35 - Fire Lash
39 - Dive
42 - Power Gem
46 - Aqua Ring
51 - Heat Wave
56 - Hydro Pump
60 - Memento
Egg - Aqua Jet
Egg - Reflect Type
Egg - Tickle
Egg - Water Pulse
TM/TR - Hyper Beam
TM/TR - Giga Impact
TM/TR - Fire Spin
TM/TR - Reflect
TM/TR - Rest
TM/TR - Thief
TM/TR - Snore
TM/TR - Protect
TM/TR - Scary Face
TM/TR - Attract
TM/TR - Rain Dance
TM/TR - Sunny Day
TM/TR - Whirlpool
TM/TR - Will-O-Wisp
TM/TR - Facade
TM/TR - Dive
TM/TR - Bounce
TM/TR - U-turn
TM/TR - Payback
TM/TR - Assurance
TM/TR - Fling
TM/TR - Round
TM/TR - False Swipe
TM/TR - Flamethrower
TM/TR - Hydro Pump
TM/TR - Surf
TM/TR - Fire Blast
TM/TR - Waterfall
TM/TR - Leech Life
TM/TR - Sleep Talk
TM/TR - Heat Wave
TM/TR - Overheat
TM/TR - Muddy Water
TM/TR - Power Gem
TM/TR - Flash Cannon
TM/TR - Scald
TM/TR - Liquidation
 

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